Egypt sheikh says girls should be married, have children starting at 14-years-old

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CAIRO: An Egyptian cleric and member of the Constituent Assembly tasked with drafting Egypt’s new constitution has said that girls 14-years-old are permitted to have sexual relations under Islam and has proposed reducing the marriage age limit as a result.

“It is permissible for the girl at the age of 9 or 10 to marry,” Yassir Barhami said in discussing a woman’s sexual reproduction and his interpretation of Islam.

The Salafist – ultra-conservative – preacher claimed that under Islam when a girl begins to ovulate she is ready for marriage.

He added during a television debate on Dream TV last Tuesday that “marriage of a girl would not be a supplement for education,” but added that it “was better” to marry a girl young “than falling into sin with customary marriage.”

Written By: Joseph Mayton
continue to source article at bikyamasr.com

66 COMMENTS

  1. Yes some ignorant old men get the hots for little girls, who would have thought it, some even like little boys!
    It might be something to do with fear and inadequacy…it is a trait that all theists enjoy!

  2. Dear Valhalla.  ” . . .ignorant old men get the hots for little girls . . .” Surely you weren’t refering to the shameless documentary about the UK’s famous DJ, Sir Jimmy Savile, to be shown this wednesday on ITV? After all, the BBC’s frontman on “Top of the Pops”and “Jim’ll Fix It” worked tirelessly for many UK charities. Yes, FRONTMAN indeed!       

  3. Well, that was just a matter of time after the Arabian spring…
     
    What utter nonsense. The science isn’t even sound. Girls that start menstruating usually aren’t already ovulating. But that’s all beside the point. A woman is supposed to choose her partner freely. In human relations it is actually the woman who chooses and the man who has to try to gain her favor, e.g. by offering her a safe life and a good environment to raise their children. That’s why men are such show offs. But of course that’s scary. Just imagine how utterly unattractive you are with a thin beard and wearing a dress because some prophet has said you had to. So other means are in order, like raping little girls who can not defend themselves etc.
     
    I can’t imagine the majority of Muslims not being very ashamed when an idiot like this speaks his filthy mind in the name of Islam.

  4. It is impossible to reason with a person whose mentality enables them to make such statements. The body of a “man” the mind of a child.

    Only religion could bring about such views; ” Good people do good things, and bad people do bad things, but for a good person to do bad things takes religion.”

    Steven Weinberg.

  5. Yassir Barhami  (Is that pronounced Barmy?) would have serious trouble finding an adult consenting woman who would lie down for a “man” like him so he has to resort to legalising the rape of a child. He doesn’t have to rely on Quranic hermeneutics.  He just has to read the bit about the model paedo who thought even 9 years old was old enough.

    He also wants a law denying (Sic) ‘slavery against women’.  Are we to take this literally i.e. they want a legal justification to deny that women are their slaves?

    The msulims want us to respect this kinda shit?  Are we to be forbidden to criticise this vile religion, its disgusting clerics and anti human doctrine?

     

  6. I can’t imagine the majority of Muslims not being very ashamed when an idiot like this speaks his filthy mind in the name of Islam.

    Oh ffs….personal incredulity notwithstanding, this is not an epiphany…..you need to start ‘imagining’ some of the things ya can’t and stop the apologetics. Better still, don’t imagine anything, go find out for yerself. This ‘idiot’ is not in isolation, and whether it is the majority of Muslims or not, it is more than a slack handful and that is too many.

    http://www.barenakedislam.com/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v

    http://www.rawa.org/temp/runew

    We rage on and on here about the RCC paedophile scandal and we castigate the Catholic apologists that pitch up here in defence of their Church. I am very quick to point out that any Catholic not condemning such despicable conduct is giving support to those that do carry out the acts, or those protect the perpetrators, including the Pope. And there is an almost universal backing from the members here. At least the dirty fuckers of the Catholic faith are not trying to defend their actions by quoting scriptures. They are not claiming it as their religious rights. At least there is no one in the hierarchy of Catholicism claiming that their paedophilia is justified in religious law. 

    You display too much accommodationism for a particularly vile religion I’m afraid.  

  7. Well, this is one depressing day on the RD forums first I read about a mother attempting to murder her daughter for the girl’s own ‘good’ and now this pedo’s trying lower the sexual consent/marriage age .
     
    What’s truly ironic is that this is happening whilst Muslims are ‘demanding’ respect and for international laws to be implemented to enforce said respect.  I’m don’t know about anyone else but, laws or no, I will never respect a mindset that allows child (female) mutilation, child/adult (female again) rape and subservience, death to gays, death to apostates and the enslavement of all non Muslims.  Respect, never happening until all the anti-human rhetoric is taken out and no it’s not Islamaphobic to say so.

  8.  As I understand, that “bruise” is characteristic of some Muslims who thereby show how devout they are: it is a mark they supposedly get by praying very intensely (their forehead against the floor).

  9. No! you stupid cleric.  The name of the game is not to produce new Muslims as fast as possible. Have you not noticed, earth cannot support even the people we have?  Marriage is about selecting a life partner.  No 9-year old can make an informed choice.

    When girls have babies before their bodies have grown big enough to accommodate the baby, they do permanent damage to themselves.

    You are completely ignoring the girls’ wishes and interests. You are a selfish old letch.

  10. Weird as it turns out, but was not Savile was a very ardent RC fan?

    But apparently rumours had been circulating for decades about his proclivities in that dubious direction!
    But rumours are not evidence, and that story has a way to run I would guess!
    Seems odd and unfortunate that these tales surface when he is no longer there to dispute or express his version of the truth about incidents.
    But even if he was what would an 80 odd year old admit one wonders!

    With some theists their proclivities are a little more known about, and their holy books actively encourage what is regarded now as under-age sex.

  11. And what would Mr Barharmi know about the effects of setting off a bomb on the London Underground?  Or the effects of flying a fully laden jet into a skyscraper in New York? And yet here is  this pissquick cleric rabbiting on about getting girls married early whilst also criticising western attitudes towards sex before marriage. The man has a lot to learn!

    As does Islam.

  12. It is beyond comprehension that millions of Muslims still haven’t guessed that their religion, like all other religions, is man- made or to be exact, male-made.  Surely they must see it when they hear such sick utterances as the one by this idiot cleric who, sadly,  is only one representative of many such idiots  in the Muslim world.

  13. Or, of course, Bill Wyman’s mid-1980′s relationship with Mandy Smith; 13 when they started dating, 14 when they had sex…and all with her mother’s knowledge and consent. Or Elvis and Priscilla, 14 when they started dating; Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his 13 year- old cousin.
    All the examples in the world doesn’t make it right, but here in the civilised world we’ve moved on a bit now. Which is why Saville, if he were guilty of anything, wasn’t calling for a change in the law to allow for his own alleged proclivities, and why Jonathan King and Paul Gadd (Gary Glitter) did time for theirs.

    I’m not entirely sure what sickens me most about this story; that lecherous old men are calling for legal sexual access to children; or that the children will certainly have no say in the matter (even assuming they were emotionally mature enough to make essentially adult decisions), so the change would effectively be legalising child rape.

  14. Revolution,  Arab Spring, demand for democracy just to end in the hands of cavemen. To come out of a political dictatorship to get into a religious regime, that sooner or later will end up in a religious dictatorship. To jump from the frying pan into the fire. I think the masses of Muslim countries have no concept of liberal democracy and the rights of the individual. It’ll take generations to learn it, you cannot ask for the impossible.

  15. The forehead bruise is known as a prayer bump or prayer scar and, as permafrost rightly says, is a mark of honour among some Muslims, worn to show just how devout they are.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P

    Give me 10 minutes alone with this Yassir Barhami guy and my hockey stick, though, and he’d have a permanent bruise and would never have to pray again. Or chew his food, or wipe his own….well, you get the idea.

  16. This is just another unfortunate case of something that is happening all over the world. In any secular country or area of a country this guy would be charged to some degree of being a pedophile I have always hated the fact that religious leaders are held high as “great men” among the people they share the same mind set with. Some of these people don’t even know what morals are and go around preaching them their own warped view…..like treating women as property and child factories. The problem is that these kind of attitudes are ingrained into the fabric of religious societies, some of these leaders are more powerful than politicians and to go against what they teach can be severely punished. Maybe one day the atheist movement…or even just pure reason will win people in such places over in time.

    One thing I’ve always said…PRIESTS SHOULD NOT HAVE POWER.

  17. Yeah it would be difficult to differentiate before and after.  What I would class as poetic justice is to have this guy carted off to prison here in the West where he can make some ‘special’ friends.  I can just imagine this smug b**tard who has spent his life making countless lives, especially women, a misery being someone’s bitch.  Oh how the shoe would fit on the other foot so nicely. 

  18. The current elected Egyptian leader is campaigning for the rest of the world to accept that criticism of Islam and Prophet
    Mo be internationally illegal; this has been echoed by Pakistan and Indonesia.
    Freedom is the right to tell others that which they may not want to hear.
    How dare they make such an absurd, egregious demand?

  19. Only one word comes to mind that can even begin to describe this excuse for a homo sapiens :
     P E R V E R T! 
    This is so sickening, it is beyond words. How can this sub human even command an audience with views like that- let along be responsible for contributing to the drafting of the Egyptian Constitution? jcw

  20. Actually my statement is about hope. I hope the majority of Muslims will find this despicable. From a standpoint of a well educated man the remarks of this man are sickening and form that feeling I would think it strange anybody else would feel different about it. I know that, unfortunately, that is an unrealistic thought. But still, I hope and I also hope that eventually the (supposed) majority will stand up and kick this idiots butt.
     
    I’m not accommodating this religion, I’m talking about the people that find themselves within this religion from birth and need our support to find a way out. Assuming that all Muslims will condone these statements regardless, just because they are Muslims, sends the wrong message. I think at least.

  21.  Yes, a deliberate bruise. “Pious” Muslims wear the bruise proudly because it comes from particularly energetic bumping of the head in the prostrations during the five daily prayers. It’s a “Look how holy I am” bruise, rather like the bleeding gashes of the flagellants of various other sects.
    Disgusting, eh?

  22. That sort of  utter dumb nonsense in self harm stems directly from the fact that their delusion is only skin deep and they seemingly want to prove it unintentionally.

    It shows a pure lack of faith and that scares them to the core and to make up for it in front of other dumb sycophants they pretend that they are so in tune with their make believe fairy that they cannot wait to chat with it and in doing so ‘accidentally’ maim themselves.
    They are boasting about their piousness is all.

    It is a totally theist thing, they think it impresses folk, due to the lack of viable or relevant evidence for their tall tales they manufacture it, as they do with the rest of it.
    Only the brain dead get twisted and manipulated into thinking it is a sign of devotion and a secondary indication that those mutilated are in some unfathomable way trustworthy cos presumably they would never double cross their fairy!

    There are non-verifiable rumours that JP2 liked to scourge himself.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_

    No idea if that is true, but Opus Dei do tend to drool copiously around such batshit insanity.
    And Opus Dei was one of JP2′s favourite cults within a cult.

    On a typical morning before class, says
    former Boston College student Tammy DiNicola, she would wake to a loud knock,
    kiss the floor and silently say “Serviam,” Latin for “I will serve.”
    Then, she says, she would: take a cold shower while praying; whip her
    buttocks privately while reciting a prayer (once a week); attend a Mass
    in Latin; wear a spiked chain, called a cilice, around her thighs for two
    hours; vacuum two rooms in her residence; and perhaps meet with her
    spiritual director….
    With special ties to the pope, Opus Dei takes a traditionalist approach
    and has been portrayed as an important counterforce to liberal reforms in
    the church since the 1960s and to concerns such as declining attendance.

    Reads more like a chapter from the “Story of ‘O’” or “50 Shades of Grey.”

    It is  a mental problem dressed up to appear pious as I believe all sky fairy drooling actually is!
    Problem being that it is now an obligatory entry ticket to be allowed to interact with society.
    There is no way of knowing how many of the moderates, or the actual ones with severe doubts, do just enough jeebus or Allah whispering to ‘fit in’  to not be ‘different’ to not being reported to the head honcho, to not be noticed.

    That way it is a self regulating meme, fear and anxiety rampant in the congregation does the rest to keeps the legions ‘faithful’.
    Self mutilation in indicative of self doubt and scepticism, then panic and to cover that up and they go overboard!
    Shows the level of inner torment and their fear of discovery.

    Lent in the Christian calender is the equivalent of Ramadan, a collective scourging of the body earthly, in somewhat gentler but no less uncomfortable way!

    It is not just ‘head bangers’  they are all much of a muchness!

  23. justinesaracen,

    I wonder why I never noticed it before.  New trend? Figures though, there are parallels to be found in other religions too. Even in the Methodist church where I was brought up, there were pompous, asses who wore their piety on their sleeves.  It really says something about a person, doesn’t it?  And now that my attention has been drawn to this, I just noticed that Ahmadinejad has one too.  He was on the show 60 minutes last night. Also reminds me of the Catholics walking around with ashes on their foreheads on ash Wednesday.

  24. Well, when your religion requires you to fart to the heavens 5 times a day, you are already bruised big time. I hope the mothers in the islamic world will revolt against the Barhami’s around them: Protect your daughters and prevent that your sons turn into bearded bruiseheads. 

  25. inquisador,

    ha! Well, I still think it looks like a mule hoof print.  I freely admit my bias in this matter.  It’s a clear case of wishful thinking.  I recuse myself from further analysis of this matter.

  26. Actually my statement is about hope.

    Unfortunately I was responding to what you wrote, not what you thought you had inferred.  But it is gratifying to know this all the same, even if the hope is probably misplaced. I apologise for any misrepresentation…and we all live in hope I guess, even misplaced.

    From a standpoint of a well educated man the remarks of this man are sickening and form that feeling I would think it strange anybody else would feel different about it.

    Not just a well educated man, also from this not very well educated man, but you need to take a look around you at all the other sickening things going on in the world as well, especially on religions ticket. Once you do, you will see that this is just another chapter in the sickening stuff religions advocate or defend. Have a look at the ‘Age of Consent” table here…. http://www.avert.org/age-of-co… …the problem with some of these backward places is that they make marriage the provision for consent, it’s that sort of attitude that make fuckwits search for loopholes and draws out the perverts. Spain, for example, has a consent age of just 13…no one is complaining about that and 13 is a bit close to the knuckle in my opinion. The keyword is consent I guess, not something young Muslim women enjoy too much of apparently.

    I know that, unfortunately, that is an unrealistic thought. But still, I hope and I also hope that eventually the (supposed) majority will stand up and kick this idiots butt.

    There’s the problem, assuming what the ‘majority’ think and then assuming they want changed. Until it is understood what the majority think, we can’t comment. What the majority think doesn’t include the half of the population that are potential victims, that’s Islam for ya. It appears that support for this rum behaviour is more widespread than even I first thought. 

    I’m not accommodating this religion, I’m talking about the people that find themselves within this religion from birth and need our support to find a way out.

    Assuming there are any that want that support, the evidence is saying the opposite. This religion is growing at an alarming rate, and I’m not just talking about those born into this insidious evil, conversions of otherwise highly intelligent people, especially women apparently, are contributing to the problem.”According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Islam is the world’s fastest-growing religion by number of conversions each year: … In the period 1990-2000, approximately 12.5 million more people converted to Islam than to Christianity”.Now I know a lot of these eejits are only play acting and haven’t a clue wtf they’ve got themselves into, not ‘real’ Muslims as I say. But it is still very worrying, it sends a signal to the rest that rather than leave, the cool thing to be is Muslim, especially when there is celebrity conversions. Sheeple will always follow, regardless of how misguided.

    Assuming that all Muslims will condone these statements regardless, just because they are Muslims, sends the wrong message. I think at least.

    Okay, but as this is an evidence based forum, lets look at the situation as it is. The evidence, as far as I read it, is of most Muslims condoning this behaviour based on the scriptures interpretation. Mo did it, Mo can do what he wants because Mo said Allah allows it, ergo Allah condones it. Now the evidence for condemning the tripe is? The so called reasonable majority are noticeable by their silence. So what is one to deduce from the evidence? It’s no use filling in the gaps with wishful thinking, that’s what we criticise the believers for doing all the time. 

    Those seeking help from within the Muslim community are invariably classed as apostates and by definition, no longer Muslims.

  27. I guess I’ll have to be careful with my “face-palm” activity… I wouldn’t want to end up looking devout! And those who engage in “head-desk”, not unheard-of on this site, had better be extra careful.
    Steve

  28. It’s a ‘prayer bruise’, an affectedly ostentatious sign of his ‘piety’, derived from pressing his nose into a carpet five times a day and sticking his ass in the air. It’s supposed to prove to the world at large how submissive he is to Allah. I’d rather not contemplate the bruises this devout and holy person would leave on the body of a submissive 14-year-old girl.

  29. My forehead regularly looks like that. It comes from my devotion to rucking, mauling and scrummaging. I am a hooker, after all. Very few people can show the devotion I can, even in my 40s. This man knows nothing of sacrifice.

  30. What a sick article from a very sick old man! And scientifically inaccurate as well, ovulation is not a sign that a women is physically mature enough to carry a child and give birth to one. Teenagers have children safely only when in receipt of very, very good medical care, and even then the babies are smaller than average as the body gives the growing teenager has first call on nutrition rather than the embryo as with adult women. And then there are the horrendous problems of giving birth before growth is complete. Where teenage brides are common so are things like fistulas,

    “When a mother’s hips are too small for the baby’s head to pass through, it presses down on her pelvic bone, cutting off blood supply and causing the tissue to die. The resulting hole causes urinal or fecal incontinence.
    The baby usually dies.
    “The complete pelvic bone growth would be at 21 years of age. So long as bones are not completely mature you have a risk of obstructed labor,” said Wakasiaka.”

    In short in many countries where teenage brides give birth they are pretty much destroyed physically. Girls aged 15-19 are twice as likely to die in pregnancy or childbirth as women aged 20-24. Then again that won’t matter to that old git, cos you can always move on from that destroyed human girl to the next fourteen year old and so on.

    Of course there is also the mental anguish. The age of consent is set at 16 here for very good child protection reasons. To allow time for some kind of emotional maturity and protect from coercion and grooming and exploitation.I would imagine old weirdy beardy there would not take a girls feelings into account if a much older man were chosen for her.
     

  31. (Edited by a moderator)

    I’m guessing the mod removed a part of your comment which described your immense respect for this kind of devotion in order to protect you from further scorn.

  32. Well Amos (can I call you Amos?), I guess we have a different opinion on how to deal with these people. Personally I know quite a lot of Muslims and from time to time have discussions with them on a multitude of subjects. Most of them are very amiable people, both the men and the women. Most are appalled by remarks like the one Barhami made and do not understand the reaction to the internet movie. These are facts too. The ones I rely on to make my judgment about Muslims. Of course this says little about the rest of the Muslims in the world.
     
    I don’t think it’s very effective to call Muslims stupid – although I know I called Barhami an idiot, I fear the man is probably very smart and knows exactly what he is doing -. Personally I don’t like being called an idiot. It makes me want to stop any discussion I’m in because if my opponent has no respect for me as a person the discussion can not be constructive in any way. I guess you don’t think I’m an idiot and nor do I think you are one. We just have a difference of opinion. We discuss it and thus we become wiser. (Btw, I’m thoroughly enjoying this discussion so please feel free to disagree :-) ).

  33. Jerry Lee Lewis is not a good example to quote. That wasn’t an illicit relationship; it was a perfectly legal marriage in his neck of the woods.

    I though it was a perfectly good example of how the civilised world has moved on – unless marriage for 13-year olds is still legal in the deep South.

  34. My pleasure, LaurieB. To clarify, the hooker is the player in the middle of the front row of the ‘scrummage’, whose job it is to ‘hook’ the ball back into the second row so his team have possession of the ball..

  35. Well Amos (can I call you Amos?),…

    Please…loads here do, but my name is Paul. The moniker is a play on words and comes from a time when people felt secure in anonymity.

    I guess we have a different opinion on how to deal with these people.

    Wouldn’t the place be boring if we all thought the same?

    Personally I know quite a lot of Muslims and from time to time have discussions with them on a multitude of subjects. Most of them are very amiable people, both the men and the women. Most are appalled by remarks like the one Barhami made and do not understand the reaction to the internet movie.

    Interesting that only ‘most’ are amiable and only ‘most’ are appalled by the one Baharmi made. As for the others, you are aware of the Muslim concept of Taqiyya I presume? Since we are accepting anecdote, let me relay a bit of my own. I live in a part of the world that is seeping with religious bigotry. Now most of my friends and associates are Protestants, at least that’s how they’d label themselves. Most of the time they are lucid individuals that really have no involvement with the denomination they profess. They don’t read the scriptures, they don’t attend religious services, they do nothing that would define them any different from me. They  too are appalled at the fundamentalism of some of the Protestant leadership. But then when a certain time of year comes along, they morph into religious bigots. They also become highly protective of their flavour of woo woo when placed in a position of choice. This is why the largest political party in Northern Ireland is a knuckle dragging bunch of homophobic,  creationist and religious bigots. 

    The problem with the Muslim debate seems to me to be what is the definition of a Muslim? Until we agree on that, then what we are discussing is just opinion. Let’s take the basic requirement of what a Muslim is…”an adherent of Islam, a monotheistic Abrahamic religion based on the Qur’an—which Muslims consider the verbatim word of God as revealed to prophet Muhammad—and, with lesser authority than the Qur’an, the teachings and practices of Muhammad as recorded in traditional accounts, called hadith. “Muslim” is an Arabic word meaning “one who submits to God”.(Wiki 2012).

    So with ‘verbatim’ being the keyword, we can now move forward on who can be described as Muslim. Obviously anyone who does not accept the Qur’an as the verbatim word of Allah…that is inerrant. Children cannot be considered Muslim. Can anyone that has not read or understand the Qur’an be considered a Muslim? That 2 billion is getting a lot smaller. And we haven’t considered the Hadith yet.

    Now the Qur’an is a book of epic clusterfuck proportions because it is not a single contemporary account, but a load of bits and pieces of memories written on palm fronds and cobbled together in no particular order. It appears abrogation is the key…newer Sura supersede older Sura. 

    “The classical approach to violence in the Koran was neatly summed up in an essay on jihad in the Koran by Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Hamid, former chief justice of Saudi Arabia: “So at first ‘the fighting’ was forbidden, then it was permitted and after that it was made obligatory: (1) against those who start ‘the fighting’ against you (Muslims)… (2) And against all those who worship others along with Allah.”

    These are the declarations of Islamic Scholars.

    “As the Muslim community grew stronger, and conflict with its neighbors did not abate, further revelations expanded the license for waging war, until in Sura 9, regarded as one of the last chapters to be revealed, it is concluded that war against non-Muslims could be waged more or less at any time and in any place to extend the dominance of Islam.”

    Hence the instruction for the endeavour of a worldwide caliphate. What are the thoughts on these issues of the Muslims you know?

    These are facts too. The ones I rely on to make my judgment about Muslims. Of course this says little about the rest of the Muslims in the world.

    Hardly facts…more a kind of hearsay. 
     

    I don’t think it’s very effective to call Muslims stupid – although I know I called Barhami an idiot, I fear the man is probably very smart and knows exactly what he is doing -.

    Anyone that believes in a flying horse is stupid….or as I prefer to say… asinine. There are lots of other belief’s that warrant the descriptor asinine.

    Personally I don’t like being called an idiot. It makes me want to stop any discussion I’m in because if my opponent has no respect for me as a person the discussion can not be constructive in any way.

    Even when you are being stupid about something? Haven’t you ever been stupid? Have you never thought to yourself midway through doing something “now I’m just being stupid”? People have to earn respect…it’s not a given…talk to me about the about flying horses and talking snakes being real and true and I’m sorry, respect is out the window in the same way you would have little respect for me if I asserted magic underpants and I’m the reincarnation of George Washington, and rightly so. 

    I guess you don’t think I’m an idiot and nor do I think you are one.

    No I don’t…but you be careful because I’ve done some idiotic things in my time. }8O)~

    We just have a difference of opinion. We discuss it and thus we become wiser.

    Yip…without more conclusive data, which will be difficult to find, opinion is all we have.

    (Btw, I’m thoroughly enjoying this discussion so please feel free to disagree :-) ).

    Me too!

  36. With apologies for invoking the Master once more, the following is from the preface to chapter IX of ‘Cosmos’, taken from a Ptolemaic Egyptian incantation:
    “The gods came forth from [Ra's] mouth and mankind from his loins. All things took their birth from him, the child who shines in the lotus and who’s rays cause all beings to live.”

    See, Barhami is just following the old, pre-Islam Egyptian religious teachings, the religion of his ancestors, so this has nowt to do with Islam really.*

    *Now there’s a sentence the apologists could make use of. Mischeivous? Moi?

    Edited to correct dodgy punctuation.

  37.  Can you imagine the creepy cleric climbing all over your 14 year old daughter.  
    And Muslims get upset when we refuse to respect this most ridiculous of all the ridiculous invented religions?

  38. I definitely agree with you about the Qur’an. I read it (or at least tried to, the Dutch translation..) and I thought it was thoroughly confusing and contradicting. It appeared to me as if some writers (who ever that were, but certainly not Mo) started out writing a certain Aya in a good mood and gradually became angry while writing it. Some Aya’s about Jews e.g. start out telling about that Jews are also people of the scripture and are supposed to be respected, but towards the end Jews have become  people who can not be trusted. The position of women is another one that is loaded with contradictions all over the book.
     
    But then again, the Bible is just as confusing although the writers have at least tried to give it a chronological structure. Any holy book can and will be used to support any ludicrous point of view, I think we agree on that too.
     
    When I referred to facts I meant the Muslims I know and have discussions with. Many of them know I’m an atheist and that doesn’t seem to bother them. Of course I can not look in their heads but that goes for anyone I talk to. I can only say that most of them are appalled by the remarks of Barhami because I have asked only them. I don´t know all opinions.
     
    I also agree on the idea that children can not be Muslims or Christian or any other religion from birth. Richard Dawkins has described that clearly in `The God Delusion`.  (We agree on a lot of stuff it seems.)
     
    On the subject of stupidity I’m convinced that pretty much everybody in the world holds beliefs of which he or she is certain and for which they think they have solid evidence, which will turn out to be untrue. Just ask around how many people still think Columbus discovered the world was a bal. People can be very stubborn when it comes to holding on to their beliefs especially when there are another few billion people claiming to agree with you. That doesn’t make someone stupid. And yes, I have also done my share of stupid things in life.

  39. I definitely agree with you about the Qur’an. I read it (or at least tried to, the Dutch translation..) and I thought it was thoroughly confusing and contradicting.

    It’s a bloody nightmare to read…a multi-stage attack with lots of extended interludes is required. Perhaps if I read the instructions for proper interpretation it might become clearer, but which ones?

     
     

    It appeared to me as if some writers (who ever that were, but certainly not Mo) started out writing a certain Aya in a good mood and gradually became angry while writing it. Some Aya’s about Jews e.g. start out telling about that Jews are also people of the scripture and are supposed to be respected, but towards the end Jews have become  people who can not be trusted. The position of women is another one that is loaded with contradictions all over the book. 

    Indeed, so anyone rote learning the silly book…or cherry picking either the pro’s or the con’s, is never going to get a handle for the contents or have any understanding of the purpose or lack thereof within the pages of the scriptures. As for the authors and their authenticity, that’s a whole other debate which we’ve had here…just one I’ve plucked from the old site…http://old.richarddawkins.net/comment… for a bit of light entertainment that not everyone appreciated….http://old.richarddawkins.net/discuss… the Youtube video has been taken down. Now I wonder why that could’ve been? 

    But then again, the Bible is just as confusing although the writers have at least tried to give it a chronological structure.

    I don’t think so…at least not the NT. But it’s of no matter, I get the jest of the point.

    Any holy book can and will be used to support any ludicrous point of view, I think we agree on that too.

    Of course we agree, but because of the dilution of Christianity over the past half a millennia  the Buybull’s authority is at liberty to be cherry picked or disregarded as the individuals want without risk to the persons safety, at least for the most part. Condemnation to Hell and the odd homophobic or pro-life murderer being the exception. Do we really have the time to wait on Islam educating itself to the same degree? Especially when we see it going in the opposite direction? I use the Buybull as the example of choice for convenience.  

    When I referred to facts I meant the Muslims I know and have discussions with. Many of them know I’m an atheist and that doesn’t seem to bother them. Of course I can not look in their heads but that goes for anyone I talk to. I can only say that most of them are appalled by the remarks of Barhami because I have asked only them. I don´t know all opinions.

    The Netherlands isn’t it? My brother manages a bar in Amsterdam….lovely place. Bill Maher interviews two homosexual ‘Muslims’ in a gay bar in Amsterdam for his movie ‘Religulous’. Having been to The Netherlands a number of times, it would be easy to say that it is a fairly free spirited liberal minded country. It is a socially tolerant democracy, it’s no wonder it was the choice bolthole for the religiously persecuted Spinoza family. The  Decree of Toleration attracted many at the time and I’m sure it is that same toleration that attracts many today’s persecuted. Toleration is an infectious meme, once someone experiences it for a while, it has a habit of rubbing off. All good I’d say. But Salafism is still a problem, is it not? My point is this, your ‘Muslim’ associates are in a country that tolerates the discretions of their faith. I’m sure they would also be accepting of you if you were gay or Jewish too. Do they adhere to the five pillars? Have you discussed the athenticity of the Qur’an with them? I’m guessing not. Apologies for the scepticism  but earlier you said most of the Muslims you know criticised Barhami, which means some didn’t, so it’s not completely rosey in the garden. I don’t need to show you how intolerant some Dutch Muslims are. I read an interview a few weeks back that I came across by accident while surfing for something…it piqued my interest for a couple of reasons…

    “Ruhulessin says Salafists dominate both the lecture circuit and the internet forums used by young Dutch Muslims. But he also sees a growing irritation in the Muslim community with these self-appointed ‘pure’ Muslims. “Ten years ago, the Salafists were popular because they refused to compromise with Dutch society. But meanwhile many Muslims have become weary of the pretentious claim by the Salafists that they are the only ones practicing true Islam.” On the internet, this can result in outright tyranny, says Ruhulessin. “If you dare to question the prevailing Salafist orthodoxy, you may find yourself accused of being an unbeliever.”

    The interview can be viewed here….http://http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/you...… the comments are particularly interesting. 

    (We agree on a lot of stuff it seems.) 

    Of course, rationality and critical thinking will do that. Furthermore, and more importantly, we can discuss the things we don’t agree on. I don’t profess to know everything, in fact, I know very little, hence the moniker…but I’m always up for being educated. 

    On the subject of stupidity I’m convinced that pretty much everybody in the world holds beliefs of which he or she is certain and for which they think they have solid evidence, which will turn out to be untrue. Just ask around how many people still think Columbus discovered the world was a bal.

    Yes, but there is a distinct difference between ignorance and stupidity. If those that think Columbus discovered the world was a ball still thought that after being educated that he didn’t, then they are stupid. Those that believe a 600 year old man built a big boat out of gopher wood, whatever ta feck gopher wood is, and he loaded at least a pair of every species that exists on the planet onto that big boat because a man in the sky told him the whole world would be covered with rainwater for circa 6 months, are stark raving bonkers….because the whole idea is stupid. One can have a Phd in astrophysics for all I care, but on that one point alone, asinine is all that I can say. Add up all the other asinine bit’s of scripture, well you get the picture. I won’t sit still and allow someone to insult my intelligence, friend or not, I owe them that much.

    Would you say an evolution denier or flat earther was stupid, because that’s what Muslims sign up to in order to be Muslim.

    http://www.islam-watch.org/Log

    …and for your entertainment….a stupid Muslim man talking pish….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v

    Of course you could say that Islam came before the people really knew about these things, and that is right. But that is proof that the Qur’an is a lot of nonsense invented in ignorance, because Allah would’ve known…because as the mad mullah in the video says at the end, Allah knows best…NOT!

    People can be very stubborn when it comes to holding on to their beliefs especially when there are another few billion people claiming to agree with you.

    Ah yes, the argumentum ad populum. How could so many other people be so gullible? I agree that consensus makes it difficult, but it doesn’t make it any less stupid unfortunately. I’m reminded of a quote by Sam Harris in ‘A Letter to a Christian Nation’, if I remember right….

    “The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.” 

     

    That doesn’t make someone stupid.

    I have to disagree. Just because a billion people believe it. Some 100,000 people claimed to have witnessed the Sun fall from the sky at Fatima in 1917. Educated people among the throng. Now, you and I know that whatever phenomena occurred that day, it was most definitely not the Sun falling from the sky. Yet with all, and safety in numbers, these educated people insist the Sun fell from the sky and that was a miracle. That, my friend, is an example of how the ‘bandwagon fallacy’ works. Can you imagine an individual Doctor making the same claim, he’d be carted off to the funny farm. Could you imagine one of the journalists that witnessed the phenomena going to his editor with a lone account of the so-called miracle, he’d be laughed out of the paper.

    So, if an individual insists on a farcical position in contradiction of presented evidence, they are not ignorant, they are being asinine. Insisting on ones bollocks book be accepted as truth without evidence when there is evidence to the contrary, is asinine in the extreme.  

     

    And yes, I have also done my share of stupid things in life.

    Haven’t we all, but with education, we very rarely do them again, that’s the difference.

    Regards

    Still an Ignorant Amos

  40. “Aquilacane, might it not be a good idea to explain the term ‘hooker’  for non-rugby players?”

    Always keep them wanting more, I say. 

    For those who don’t know, the hooker is the player in the middle of the scrum (image below, the fellow with the number 2 on his back). I’ve also attached an image of Canada’s hooker, Pat Riordan, showing of his devotion to the rugby gods.

    Note* The images are not mine and are used without permission

  41. There seems to be considerable variation in legal requirements in different countries. – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M…  – Some are quite low.

    By country

    Tanzania:
    18 for males and 15 for females, 14 with court permission if specific circumstances make marriage appear desirable. Penal Code provides that persons of “African or Asiatic descent” may marry or permit marriage of a girl under 12 in accordance with their custom or religion if marriage is not intended to be consummated before she is 12

    Sri Lanka:
    18. However, Muslims can be excluded from this regulation because the Muslim Marriage and Divorce Act of 1951 states that a girl must be 12 years of age or have a Quazi’s permission to marry before contracting into marriage. This is applicable only for Muslims in Sri Lanka.

    Yemen:
    In practice, “Yemeni law allows girls of any age to wed, but it forbids sex with them until the indefinite time they’re ‘suitable for sexual intercourse’.”[61] Following the widely publicised divorce of a 10 year-old girl in 2008, there have been public and parliamentary efforts to raise the age to 17 or 18.

     Vatican City: 18 as the age of majority,[84] in the case of minors, 16 for males and 14 for females with parental or judicial consent per code of canon law.

    It seems his view is quite common in some backwaters, with “religious exemptions” written into law.

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