Miracle in Croatia: Immobile girls got out of the wheelchairs

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(Thanks to Samuel Vimes for the translation as well!)

Today Vecernji list, one of Croatian’s three daily newspapers, published an article about miraculous healing of two girls during spiritual renewal for healing ran by friar Zvjezdan Linic. Here is the translation in English.


At the House of meeting Tabor of fra Zvjezdan Linic in Samobor during spiritual renewal for healing happened real Christmas miracle past weekend – two imobile girls rose from their wheelchairs. It was during the anointing of the sick. One is from the Croatian mainland and the other from the south, said fra Zvjezdan Linic, not hiding his excitement about what happened and exactly during Christmas season.

Both girls, as we have learned, felt strong energy in their bodies during prayer for healing.

- One of them told me that she felt a strong “push” in the back and legs and an urge to stand up so she rose up from her wheelchair and walked around. I think that before that she could not get up, and the other one is occasionally known to rise from her wheelchair, but this rarely happened – said fra Zvjezdan.

The identity of the girls is kept at the request of their families because they do not want to make the sensation out of the event though they are determined to testify when the time comes.

- It is a serious illness and should be very cautious. Although one girl stood up from her wheelchair this weekend, we heard she is stuck to them again. It was a moment of confirmation that she is on the path of God, and that will continue on it, that they would return to Tabor and pray for their health – they told us from Tabor, from the people close to the girl and her family, for whom this was one of a number of arrivals in Tabor in recent years.

In Tabor of fra Zvjezdan Linic there are many examples of healing, but especially those of addiction, such as smoking, alcoholism and even drug addiction. Such cases are rare indeed and in Tabor they do not hide their enthusiasm and excitement that something like this happened just before the Christmas holidays. Also, the people who go there for spiritual renewal were shocked and delighted with what they saw so many, as we learned, cried with happiness and did not hide their joy over this unusual event.

Written By: Darko Pavicic
continue to source article at vecernji.hr

83 COMMENTS

  1. Now why did my make Snake Oil Detector just set off an alarm ?

    The “evidence” as and when it is presented, will be the usual old mish mash of heresay, misrepresentation and just plain lying.  If God got the girls out of the wheelchairs, who put them in them ?

  2. I don’t know what to say to this stupidity, ha-ha-ha…. They say “many examples of healing,… of addiction, such as smoking, alcoholism, and even drug addiction”. Have you ever heard something more stupid?!

    Unfortunately, I am from Croatia, where church gain their space in society during the war. Church took up position at the time of socio-political uncertainty, and when people needed safety, they replaced safety of brotherhood and unity of socialism (which was collapsing at the time) with brotherhood of christianity. Croatia today is highly corrupted and totalitarian country, “ordinary” people are scared and they feel safe in church. Idiots!

    This article is typical when religion news are in concern. There is no critical view of any journalist! Ordinary, religion news are free of any critical opinion, so they pass as something normal or positive and possible. Sad.

  3. There was nothing more (or more relevant) in the newspapers. Apparently one of them has some medical documentation, but they didn’t go into much detail. That didn’t stop most of the major news portals to publish the story more or less in the above form.

  4. Awesome! This is the best thing that has ever happened. It should be shared with all, and all should be converted to worship Christ by this miracle. Too bad the girls sense of modesty precludes the Salvation of all mankind. That’s really unfortunate.

  5. If this is a real fact, and not a hoax, if the girls indeed got up from their wheelchairs during that spiritual healing event, I still wouldn’t jump to using that in confirming the existence of God. This is, most likely, PSYCHOLOGICAL. I think the girls simply needed a psychological push, that creates a flow of energy that is similar to the effect of cognitive therapy that instantaneously snaps you out of depression. Simply thinking that there is a higher power out there that’s trying to restore you, may change your brain chemistry to produce this effect as well, though God per se does not need to exist or be real. Some people believe in the power of multiple gods, or even the power of Satan, and achieve the same results, but this doesn’t mean that they are there. It’s the power of the brain. The power of human psyche that does the trick.

  6. Of course everybody is far too polite to mention the real elephant in the room: 

    The size of fr Linic’s hands!

    Wiping his arse must be a minor miracle in itself, and something I’d pay good money to see!

    Anvil.

  7. “If this is a real fact, and not a hoax, if the girls indeed got up from their wheelchairs during that spiritual healing event, I still wouldn’t jump to using that in confirming the existence of God.”

    And even if it could be construed as confirming the existence of god, it fails to answer the question:
    Why does an omnipotent being content himself with parlor tricks when there is real evil and suffering in the world?
    Steve

  8. “…And even if it could be construed as confirming the existence of god, it fails to answer the question:
    Why does an omnipotent being content himself with parlor tricks when there is real evil and suffering in the world?”

    Expect the answer to this question to be conniving and manipulative….

    It will, probably, be a Christ-like response to the question of where, the hell, hell is. This is how Christ answered this question in one of the Jesus movies –  “Well, you can say that hell is here or there or even anywhere..It’s inside you.” 

    Is this also supposed to be open to interpretation??…Come on now!

    I bet if Christ was asked a question on where he goes to the bathroom, this type of indirect manipulative response could apply, and would, probably, sound something like this, “Well, the bathroom is the work of the Devil. You can say that using the bathroom is something necessary either here or there or anywhere…The bathroom is a matter of perspective, and is inside you”…..Well, luckily, that was the Christian Christ, the product of human imagination, responding to a hypothetical intimate question. However, when answering crucial to existence questions, while threatening the human race with eternal damnation, he could’ve been a little bit more direct and straightforward… I guess, his responses also depend on the movie and the version of the Bible, and all those different opinions of Christians.

  9. Haha, I was wondering the same thing…. Funny how the article even mentions… “I think that before that she could not get up, and the other one is occasionally known to rise from her wheelchair, but this rarely happened”.  

  10. One is from the Croatian mainland and the other from the south, said fra
    Zvjezdan Linic, not hiding his excitement about what happened and
    exactly during Christmas season.

    When is someone going to explain to these feckin’ halfwits that the Christmas season has bugger all to do with the Christ myth. Nothing special happened at this time of year to make it any more miraculous than any other ya retards.

    The identity of the girls is kept at the request of their families
    because they do not want to make the sensation out of the event though
    they are determined to testify when the time comes.

    I pebble dashed my monitor with peanuts when I read this little ditty. Is nobody going to notice that these two young ladies are know up walking about and put two and two together given all the media hype? Are they going to stay in their wheelchairs to also avoid making any sensation out of the event while secretly learning the Riverdance as evidence when the time comes?

    Smell that? I love the smell of religious psychosomatic bullshit in the morning…in the mean time, I’ll keep taking the tablets.

  11. I see a lot of ridicule here, but I have heard of a genuine case of healing at Lourdes.  A man who could not be removed from his wheelchair was hoisted into the water. When he was removed, the crowd were awestruck.  Unfortunately his physical condition was unchanged, but the wheelchair had brand new tyres.  Praise the Lord!

  12. Claiming, hiding, claiming, hiding, changing claims, miracles in convenient time, blocking investigation, denying etc etc….

    If this is real, then scientists do not need to conduct research.  Lets give the Fra Nobel prize….

    I am also waiting for the end of the world (2012)….. I am sure some miracle will prevent it.

  13.  The only  confirmation we have is that the non-existing God is genocidal.  He does not even care about all dying kids/babies around the world. Disease and hunger continues, while the creationists/religious continue their nap.

  14. If Christ was asked a question on where he goes to the bathroom, this
    type of response would apply, and would sound something like this,
    “Well, the bathroom is the work of the Devil. You can say that using the
    bathroom is something necessary either here or there or anywhere…The
    bathroom is a matter of perspective, and is inside you”…..Well,
    luckily, that was the Christian Christ, the product of human
    imagination, and even in your response to an intimate question like
    this, you can still be direct and straightforward, especially, if you’re
    threatening the human race with eternal damnation.”

    If such a personage of the Christ ever existed…he would refer you to the Caganer if asked about normal ablution habits, he witnessed it from his made up birth.

    https://www.google.es/search?q

    http://m5.paperblog.com/i/11/1

  15. Love your comment, lol, and still laughing!  I would vote for you to be the Devil’s Advocate in the Vatican; in fact, can I lobby them to bring back that Office and nominate you for it? You would be perfect, in fact that’s precisely what they need, that kind of sharp and contrary opinion, and a good laugh. 
     Also, thanks for prolonging my life: apparently,  in order to live to a 100, we are supposed to laugh (or smile) at least 20 times a day – to relieve stress – so your contribution is very welcome.  Thanks again!  Still laughing…(will definitely be getting that congratulatory telegram from the Queen or by then, King.  :)

  16. “Although one girl stood up from her wheelchair this weekend, we heard she is stuck to them again. It was a moment of confirmation that she is on the path of God…”

    Not quite. I think Derren Brown explained this particular phenomenon in his “faith healing” show while in the US of A.

    The poor unfortunate victim gets swept up in the pageantry and the sideshow in front of a crowd; a rush of blood to the head, higher rates of adrenaline, plus endorphins kick in – and voila – she stands (or walks). Only for the rush to wear off later (away from the cameras and sheeple), and her condition to, unfortunately, return to as it was before the “healing”.

    Very sad. But it won’t stop them exploiting such people to further their own delusions.

  17.  “I think that before that she could not get up, and the other one is occasionally known to rise from her wheelchair, but this rarely happened – said fra Zvjezdan.”
    He thinks that one could not get up and that one could. It’s obviously a miracle then. This is almost science.

    Isn’t it?

  18. There are many reasons to use a wheelchair depending on the diagnosis and spinal cord injury is one.  Many chronic disabilities, especially when people are younger are use for endurance to get around.  I used canes and crutches for years as did Dr. Hawkins.  So it is no miricle for someone who uses a wheelchair to be able to get up and walk a little by themselves or with assistance and they may not be faking.

    Professor Dawkins in his new video on this site visits Lourdes and filmed some of the most impressive spiritual entertainment I have seen.  He mentions that for the millions of visitor only 66 reported cures.  For me the clincher is that inspite of all they say about mircle healing, the Catholic Church as real hospitals, not very good for pregnant women, but based on mostly science.

  19. My mother-in-law at 90+ is taken shopping in her wheelchair, and miraculously rises out of it to use her Zimmer-Frame once back in her room.  The room is clearly working miracles on a regular basis!

  20. These are the same charlatan tricks we see these so called faith healers using time and time again.  Notice how God never heals an amputee?

    These tricks have been exposed.  The most agressive ones see someone coming in for a healing that is walking with a cane, for example, and then offers them a wheel chair for their convenience.  They are not paralyzed.

    These two that stood up were not paralyzed from the waist down.  No case that has ever had even the most basic of investigation has involved someone completely paralyzed from the waist down. The faith healer’s “handlers” determine which ones will make for a good spectacle. When the time comes, a hyponotic atmosphere is induced in the crowd, and surge of adrenaline and endorphines often gets released in these “healed” individuals, giving them temporary strength and resistance to pain. Of course, when one follows up with them, they end up being more exhaused than ever and revert back into their condition.

    The worst con-men then accuse them of not having enough faith or hidden sin as the reason why they did not have a complete recovery.

  21. Since Christ is a fictional character, different people have a different idea on what he’s like, since there is no such thing in reality! People don’t even know what he looks like? No wonder… I bet the “Holy Ghost”, who reveals the “truth” to Christians, could’ve also revealed the real image of Jesus, the only one, supposedly, never changing image, to all those artists, who took such pains in figuring out how to portray him, and could never get it right anyway, to the point that, even if he really existed, they would never be able to identify him? Or does this have to be manipulative as well?

    May be you should ask people what else they saw or wrote, and believe that as well? If I see someone walk on water, in real life, right in front of me, I will know that someone can walk on water. I am, in no way, obligated to believe anyone, who claims, that they saw someone walk on water. It would be like trusting those people, who claimed to have witnessed the Big Foot or greys.

  22. It is always impressive to see the high level of intellectual rigor atheists bring to issues like this. There’s nothing like a reasoned response – which much of this isn’t.

    There is good reason that much of the response is not reasoned. The story is wholly unreasonable. You are not reasonably suggesting there is a reasoned response to this unreasonableness. Can I suggest you give us your reason why this so-called ‘miracle’ is a reasonable hypothesis?

    Thanks for your concern though.

  23. Now just one minute here. This can’t be called a miracle. Only a bishop can proclaim that, or a whole synod of them in union with the last absolute monarch of Europe.  I don’t see a bishop so, Catholics, please stop blaspheming. 

    And just one more thing, what would people of faith do if we atheists weren’t constantly reminding them on how to practice their delusions properly?

    Mike

  24. Dear Peter, 

    Perhaps you missed my comment below explaining such obviously fraudulent shenanigans. 

    If you need me to explain it in any greater detail, please, let me know as I’d be more than happy to do so.

    Yours in reason,
    Tyler.

  25. It is always impressive to see the high level of intellectual rigor atheists bring to issues like this. There’s nothing like a reasoned response – which much of this isn’t.

     
    We could just apply intellectual rigor but then people complain we are like Doctor Spock. So we try to show atheists have feelings because we do. 

    Welcome to RDnet.

    Michael

  26. Well I’m glad I could make you smile! Go ahead and nominate me any position in the Vatican you want! All I ask for in someone is a sense of humour. Those people must have that in spades in order to live in such luxury and simultaneously worship a guy who was abjectly opposed to riches.

  27. It is always impressive to see the high
    level of intellectual rigor atheists bring to issues like this. There’s nothing
    like a reasoned response – which much of this isn’t

    I rather agree with Peter, here.

    I’ve been laughing without thinking.

    Especially at disdainful and despicable comments like “So what if God exists, fuck him!” and the like.

    I feel rather ashamed at taking this so lightly and bringing humour into what is obviously a serious issues regarding a deity – Jesus (or his Dad, Mother, or Uncle Spirit) – who has taken the time, especially during the busy period of Xmas, to make these two women walk.

    Compare and contrast this miracle to the, admittedly larger one, presently being carried out by UK coalition government regarding our own disabled community where people throughout the land have been feeling ‘ a strong “push” in the back’ to the accompanied cry of ‘Look, another miracle’ as they fall, helpless, from their wheelchair to the floor only to have their ‘Disability Living Allowance’ torn from their no-longer-crippled hands.

    Sites like this should, as Peter suggests, apply a reasoned and responsible attitude to such issues and should be looking to ascertain:

    A) Which specific deity should be held accountable (there may be a later issue of Tort here)?

    and, issues of potential assault aside:

    B) Will this affect their disability payments in a similar way to the UK miracles?

    Anvil.

  28.  It is only your closed world-view and faith possition that makes it ‘unreasonable’ in your eyes. But perhaps there’s more out there than you know at the moment and some respectful enquiery is due?

  29.   I’ve never doubted that atheists have feelings. But would nice to have had this issue covered in a way that showed they have brains.

     

    Most discussion sites on the internet come with their own culture and some assumptions about what discussants already know.  This one is no different.  Nearly everybody here has thought about and rejected miracles a long time ago.  So spare us the “more things in heaven and earth, Horatio” line. 

    Once you understand how this things work you either get angry at the deception or laugh at the credulity of the human race. Sometimes both at the same time.

    What did you find wrong with Tyler’s explanation by the way ?   Have you got an opinion or a thought of your own or are you just bored and decided to complain about atheists over Christmas?

    Michael

  30. Kearth
    If I see someone walk on water, in real life, right in front of me, I
    will know that someone can walk on water. I am, in no way, obligated to
    believe anyone, who claims, that they saw someone walk on water.

    Walking on water is easy!  – It is doing it without the skis, the tow-line, the boat, or the surf-board, which is difficult!

  31. Peter41
     It is only your closed world-view and faith possition that makes it ‘unreasonable’ in your eyes. But perhaps there’s more out there than you know at the moment and some respectful enquiery is due?

    (Spot the psychological projection!)
    There have been objective enquiries into hundreds of incidences “faith-healing” , with results consistently showing charlatan activities and simplistic deceptions, – not to mention medical complications from discouraging proper medical treatment.  Disabled people can be motivated to make supreme efforts to put on a show in public, often causing themselves damage in the process. 

    Do you have some evidence that this case is different from the numerous past faked “cures”, or are you just exercising wishful thinking in place of reason?

    – Peter41  I’ve never doubted that atheists have feelings. But would nice to have had this issue covered in a way that showed they have brains.

    Perhaps your “faith-blinkers” helped you miss the point, that other posters have brains AND a knowledge of the history of the subject.

    @OP – I think that before that she could not get up, and the other one is occasionally known to rise from her wheelchair, but this rarely happened – said fra Zvjezdan.

    Even with basic reading skill and a reasoning approach, it should be obvious that, any honest competent claimant, would have found out and KNOW whether the first person allegedly “miraculously rising”, could previously get up or not, BEFORE making such a claim.
    The second one was capable of getting up anyway, – so nothing unusual there!

  32.  True – ‘consistently’ but not ‘always’. True,
    too, there’s a lot of crap out there on the claims being made and I’m with you
    all the way on that. Yet if every £1 in my pocket were counterfeit I’d still be
    open to the real thing being out there somewhere.

     

    Meanwhile, I can’t see that other posters
    have any more details on this particular case than either of us. But it is a
    huge mind-jump to assume it is ‘one more of the same’ when there are still
    examples of ‘can’t explain this by science’ out there.

  33. Peter41
     (…) there are still examples of ‘can’t explain this by science’ out there.

    C’mon Peter, it is not a huge mind jump to assume this is ‘one more of the same’, is it? 

    I watched a magician yesterday. I was truly amazed. Gobsmacked in fact. But I knew that none of what he did was actually magic because I know that ‘magic’, like the proverbial unicorn, does not exist.

    I was just impressed by the wonderful theatre of it all.

    This example from Croatia happens every day in mega-churches across America – but none of it is real. 

    The daily news ‘is’ mainly crap but even the yellow press doesn’t bother to report these ‘miracles’ any more.

    Every time any attention or scrutiny is shown to these ‘miracles’ they are shown to be what they are: fakes, frauds, or mere mistakes.

    Even the great centres of ‘miraculous cure’ have been shown to be more to do with tourism than benefiting any individual. Lourdes, for example has a lower rate of ‘cure’ than the standard rate of remission. You’ve a far better chance of survival if you’d simply stayed at home.

    So what have ‘you’ seen that ‘can’t be explained by science’, Peter? 

    What ‘miracles’ have you experienced that would support your ‘pound in your pocket’ analogy?

    Anvil.

  34.  

    Compare and contrast this miracle to the, admittedly larger one,
    presently being carried out by UK coalition government regarding our own
    disabled community where people throughout the land have been feeling
    ‘ a strong “push” in the back’ to the accompanied cry of ‘Look, another
    miracle’ as they fall, helpless, from their wheelchair to the
    floor only to have their ‘Disability Living Allowance’ torn from their
    no-longer-crippled hands.

    I’m only too well aware of this miracle…my partner has been put through the wringer since February by those arseholes in charge of the new ESA….I just wish some god would get its finger…or noodlie appendage…out, and cure her debilitating fibromyalgia.

  35.  Keep on drinking the Kool-Aid Peter..and enough of the concern and tone trolling already.

    If there is something in this story that is rational and by pointing it out makes the story reasonable, carry on, I’m intrigued, otherwise leave us less brainy individuals to take the pish, ridicule and get a bit of entertainment from what should be obvious to anyone with even the intellect of an amoeba, is a lot of bollocks.

  36. Now let’s get this right out of all those suffering on this cooling cinder called earth where hundreds die in agony while I write this, doG decides he’ll show his greatness by getting a couple of girls out of their wheel chairs.  Well fuckin’ hooray that’s got to be a miracle even if they rarely get out of the chairs under their own steam.
     
    I think after all the praying, ponzi shystering nutterism, political gerrymandering, contributing to the start of 2 world wars, proselytising and genocidal stupidity of catholic missionaries and fervent pederastry the least he owes us is another crucifixion or something spectacular like turning up on his bastard birthday and showing all the infidels who’s the real kick arse in the universe. He could part the red sea permanently, resurrect Mo and make him dance on a pole five times a day in the glimmer of burning korans and make the Dalai Lama recite the old testament backwards every day for the rest of eternity. 

    Fat chance miracles aint what they used to be.

  37. We had a summer miracle at the rugby club, this year. One of my team mates played the whole game only to discover his neck had been fractured. The day after the game, he was confined to a bed and couldn’t move. A visit to hospital confirmed the miracle. Our victory must have been the will of the rugby gods. He’s fine now. The rugby gods are the true gods. I had put it down to swelling pinching off the nerve but a miracle is so much more likely.

  38.  

    Yet if every £1 in my pocket were counterfeit I’d still be open to the real thing being out there somewhere.

    This being such a special celebratety day for the Mayans, just a pity they aren’t about to enjoy it, in no small part down to Christians may I add, I thought it apt to adjust your comment ever so slightly. In recognition of the marvel that was the Mayan Long Count calendar and that lunatic fringe that think they were predicting the end times.

    “Yet if every ‘end of the world theory’ were counterfeit I’d still be open to the real thing being out there somewhere.”

  39. Meanwhile, I can’t see that other posters have any more details on this particular case than either of us.

     
    To make such a claim without checking the prior capabilities of the wheelchair users, is either extemely sloppy or downright dishonest. No reputable scientists would use such methods, and any claims based on such testimony would lack credibility from the start.

    But it is a huge mind-jump to assume it is ‘one more of the same’

    Not really!  A sloppy “couldn’t give a damn about the accuracy”, claim does not deserve serious consideration.  Only the incredulous gullible accept such claims.

    when there are still examples of ‘can’t explain this by science’ out there.

    I have seen many claims of “science can’t explain”: – but they usually turn out on investigation, to be “I am too ignorant of science to understand this, too lazy or uneducated to investigate it competently”, – and daft enough to think because science does not know everything, they can assume it knows nothing!

    There are perfectly good medical explanations as to why people boosted by hormones can make unusual efforts,  as aquilacane has pointed out, ( http://richarddawkins.net/news… ) but in this example, a case has not even been presented that anything unusual happened.

  40. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

    Please document and support the physical ailments that these (obviously not planted) girls suffer from.  Obviously there must be at least a NAME to their affliction????

    This whacker could not possibly have staged this; could he?  Notice, we get zero detail.  Zero facts.  We do not even get a disease name or a patient name.  We have to accept….. on faith,,,, that all is well and everybody is honest.
    Publish a paper. Document the occurrence.  Dot your i’s and cross your t’s. 

    This is very very important.  Why do it half assed????  If you are correct and this is real PROVE IT.

  41. Anvil, I’m probably as sceptical about claims of miracles as you. I know there’s a ton of fraud, manipulation, wishful thinking and psychosomatic stuff going on. However, is just that I’ve not
    reached the place where I’m confident that this is all there is.

    This is why the absolute certainty of most of the posts – plus the large doses of arrogance in many of them – makes me uncomfortable. Do we really know all that is to know?

    In this context you make very sweeping statements for which you have no empirical evidence. Like –

    Regarding what happens in American mega-churches ‘nothing is real’. Nothing?

    ‘Every time’ miracles are scrutinised they are found to fakes, frauds or mistakes’. Every time?

    I’m not a fan of Lourdes. However, they have three levels of scrutiny including one involving non-religious medics. This has led to claims of only some 66 verifiable miraculous healings. But this is 66 more than you are ready to accept. See http://bit.ly/UVN0r3

    Again, in the face of the claim that all are fake, fraud or foolishness, the following should be considered http://bit.ly/U22kBh And there’s lots more out there like this.

    As for my own experience, I don’t think I have seen anything that would pass your own test. However, we did have our two year old diagnosed with an ear condition that demanded immediate surgery. We
    asked for a 24 hour stay of execution, had our home group pray and the following morning were told by the surgeon that all was now well, and he’d never experienced this before. But we both know that sometimes strange things happen.

    We also had a daughter of friends who had been told there was no way she could possibly ever become pregnant. Full stop. No way. We prayed and she is now a mother. Again, we both know that sometimes
    strange things happen!

    I know too that all the examples above raise questions I don’t have answers for – like ‘why these and not others?’ Or ‘why not everyone?’ But this doesn’t make what did happen not happen.

    My observation is it all depends on the ‘faith window’ through which we look. To those who say ‘there’s no God’ then the facts have to match their position. To those who say ‘there may be a God, then they have the freedom to take a less prejudiced approach.

  42. Peter41,
    You are confused about what “facts” are.  The god thing is not a fact.  Therefore looking at the world through the god eyes is automatically a flawed position to take.

    When you have no faith position (as you say) your position has to match the facts (not the other way around as you say). When you have a god, you do not have more freedom to accept the truth (the facts) but, rather, less freedom. This is because your reality must accomodate and match “facts” that are bullshit.

  43. I have never stated that God is a fact. You are putting words in my mouth – which is what I find atheists do time and again. The only position I’ve declared it is reasonable to accept we don’t know everything and therefore God is a possibility – however remote that might be.

    Thus I’m not looking at this through ‘God eyes’ but with an open mind. (To be honest, the more I dig deep – as I’ve been doing for over 40 years – the more if find ‘probable’ replacing ‘possible’ but don’t dump the word ‘fact’ on me.).

    At the same time it is not a fact that there is no God – unless you are able to offer totally conclusive proof that this is the case. If not, to take the view that there is no God is to take a faith position that all the ‘facts’ have to then line up with.

    More than that, in all my many conversations with atheists I have found constantly closed minds, and ‘intelligent’ and ‘non-judgmental’ words like ‘bullshit’, when a more open and investigative attitude would better serve them.

    Face it, it is only ‘bullshit’ because you claim ‘no God’ as a fact when it is anything but. ‘Likely’ may be. Or ‘highly probable’ perhaps. But not ‘it’s a fact’.

    By the way, how open minded were you to the links included in my last post?

  44. Hi Peter, I don’t believe there is anyone on this site who thinks ‘this is all there is’. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    Do we really know all that is to know?

    This is a telling phrase that I hear from religious people all the time. I probably said exactly this when I was religious, myself.

    I wouldn’t normally mention personal details on the internet, but hey, you’ve offered some of your own so, briefly: seven years ago I was diagnosed with a serious illness and told these chilling words: ” We’ll do the bloods this afternoon. If it’s in your blood it’s in your brain. If it’s in your brain… six to eight weeks.”

    A few months and multiple cat scans later (completely clear cat scans later) everybody is baffled. No miracle, Peter. No prayers, no novena’s. These things happen.

    No one ran to the phone to tell the newspapers the exciting news of this ‘miracle’ because, although rare, they are also a common enough experience within the medical profession. I imagine the majority in those waiting rooms that I shared over those depressing months are now dead. I know also ‘how’ they will have died. I got lucky. Real lucky.

    Fortunately strange things do indeed happen.

    I’d love to know why this happens? Wouldn’t you? I do know that people, scientists, are researching this not more than a thousand metres from where I sit. Almost within sight is a world centre of excellence for genetic research, where similar investigations are taking place. We may well know ‘why’ these things happen before I die.

    Had I still been religious when this happened, I would have simply put this event down to a miracle, to the grace of God. That would have been all the information I needed. God did it.

    Throughout history the mantra ‘God did it’ sufficed and was repeated ad nausiam until science said ‘no, this is why that happened’.

    The question ‘Do we know all that is to know?’ is answered by science thus, ‘No, but we can be filled with awe and wonder as we try and find out.

    No Gods, Peter, just reality and our quest to see it.

    Anvil.

    edit: welcome to the site, by the way.

  45. No peter, it is bullshit because this man did not heal anyone by praying.

    As far as god being a fact, god is an opinion and you are entitled to yours.  

    The more I deal with believers the more I see that when they are cornered by ideas and facts, they take issue with the words I choose to use to get my point across.  

  46. “Do we really know all that is to know?”
    I don’t think that has ever been claimed. I expect most scientist would tell you we know just about nothing of what there is to know. That is why we practice science. As much as I disagree, question or have difficulty accepting a great deal of what educated scientists have to say about actual science, my arguments mean nothing at all. I have no evidence for my silly positions. 

    I would never make a grand claim in a science journal or personal blog or TV without substantial evidence to support my claims. Around here, I just throw stuff at the wall half hoping someone who is educated will argue against it or maybe even think differently about what they know. I am employed to look at things from different angles, perhaps I can see one others have missed.

    Claiming miracles is dishonest, especially when there are proven arguments to shed light on alternative theories. I am no authority but this guy is; he is also a fraud, if for no reason other than he has not provided evidence for or accepted existing evidence against his claim. It appears he is just trying to sell his brand of bullshit at a time of year when delusional people are overly available for being fooled, that is all. But, I admit, I have no evidence of this.

  47. Peter says”

    I have never stated that God is a fact. You are putting words in my mouth – which is what I find atheists do time and again. The only position I’ve declared it is reasonable to accept we don’t know everything and therefore God is a possibility – however remote that might be.

    Well even Richard Dawkins accepts God as a possibility, as you would know if you had read The God Delusion. However the amount of probability of there being a god, he equates with same probability of there being tooth fairies, goblins elves and leprechauns, i.e. very little indeed. And the next point is which god? John Frum perhaps, Zeus, Krishna, Bacchus, Thor?   The more gods the less the odds are it’s your particular one, and I’ll guess it’s the carpenter. The 3 for the price of one god?As to leaving the door open to God; why should I ? He lets 30,000 kids die every day of poverty related issues throughout the world, and not one bloody Christian claims that as a miracle.  But as soon as two girls get up from their wheel chairs in Croatia, Halleluyah ! It’s a miracle!   Too bad about those sinning motorcyclists who broke their spines by hitting things whilst driving too fast !  And Peter has the gall to imply that we are small minded !

  48. Peter41
    I have never stated that God is a fact. You are putting words in my mouth – which is what I find atheists do time and again. The only position I’ve declared it is reasonable to accept we don’t know everything and therefore God is a possibility – however remote that might be.

    I see you have written “God”, with a capital “G” which is usually indicative of a particular god.  I think some drew the reasonable conclusion that you were suggesting a supernatural religious explanation for the walking of these girls, so it would be reasonable to think you have a god in mind. 
    (God-did-it-by-magic is the stock knowledge gap-filler of the scientifically ignorant and wishful thinkers.)

    Of course suggesting the paradox of the supernatural, and attributing this to a particular god, are two different things. 
    There are many gods in the history of humans ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L… ) so we could reasonably expect anyone claiming activities of one, to produce evidence of its existence, and why and how that particular god was the one involved.

    Thus I’m not looking at this through ‘God eyes’ but with an open mind. (To be honest, the more I dig deep – as I’ve been doing for over 40 years – the more if find ‘probable’ replacing ‘possible’ but don’t dump the word ‘fact’ on me.).

    The use of the capital “G” indicates a particular choice from the many gods.

    A critical thinker’s open mind, is not the same a bucket with no lid, into which any sloppy thinking can be poured!  It is open to evidenced, reasoned, tested, information, not whimsical stories or wild speculations!

    At the same time it is not a fact that there is no God – unless you are able to offer totally conclusive proof that this is the case.

      

    First of all, the onus of proof is on those claiming the existence of their pet god!  

    It is not everyone else’s job or responsibility to seek out all the thousands of gods (a trip up the jungle to look for one you might have missed perhaps?? ) and then to “disprove” them!

    Nevertheless, there is an incredibly slight chance that a vaguely defined obscure undetectable god or alien creator may exist, but all the gods of major religions can be shown to have no substantiated claims or evidence to support them.  Many claims contradict laws of science, and are quite ridiculous.  This is why theists usually reject all except their own as having no evidenced basis.
    Vague remote chances are not a good reason to accept improbable suggestions.

    If not, to take the view that there is no God is to take a faith position
    that all the ‘facts’ have to then line up with.

     
    How is your “faith position”, on Zeus, Thor,  Asherah, Ra, Aphrodite etc? -  http://www.atheistmemebase.com… 

    There are various reasons why the likelihood of external gods is improbable, and good scientific neurological reasons to believe they are generated as  delusions in the human brain.

    More than that, in all my many conversations with atheists I have found constantly closed minds, and ‘intelligent’ and ‘non-judgmental’ words like ‘bullshit’, when a more open and investigative attitude would better serve them.

     

    That’s the thing about scientific evidence  – once a claim has been shown to be false, it is discarded – even if people who have not yet worked out the answers cannot see why.  (Denying the law of gravity is bullshit, and it, makes no difference if you step off a high building, whether you believe in gravity or not.)

    Face it, it is only ‘bullshit’ because you claim ‘no God’ as a fact when it is anything but. ‘Likely’ may be. Or ‘highly probable’ perhaps. But not ‘it’s a fact’.

    That entirely depends on the details of which god is being claimed to exist.  Are you an aKhnumist? – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F…  Do you think the existence of Khnum is bullshit?

  49.  Hi Anvil

    So good to know you are still with us!

    For the record, I’m not religious – though I hope this is not just a play on words. To put it simply, I don’t believe the God that seems to me to be the most reasonable explanation of things is made happy by any outward form of ‘religious’ activity. And I’m sad – and at times angry – at the man-made systems that seem to suck the life out of too many people.

    My experience on this site, and the twitter feed of RD, is there seems to be a large number who are absolutely convinced they know enough to say ‘there’s no god’ with total certainly. And that there could be nothing outside their present knowledge that could convey a different story. I’d actually call them ‘fundamentalists’ based on the exchanges I’ve had.

    I only gave you personal details because you asked what I’d seen. I made it clear I was not making any great claims ‘because things happen’. The odd thing though is, the more I pray the more they seem to happen. I also know some psychologists will tell me that this is selective recognition!

    Your own experience is such good news and I’m delighted scientists are working on issues like this. More power to them – I have no fear of science or knowledge. But maybe, just maybe, the God who loves you chose to do something especially nice for you.

  50. Glad you read that the link with a sceptical mind. That’s my approach too on issues like this.

    However, your link doesn’t come near touching many of the cases on mine. Without doubt spontaneous remission and the placebo effect are realities and can be used to explain away much that some would consider ‘god at work’. But not when the person involved was dead, when deformities disappear, when a coronary artery bypass is no longer needed, or when doctors themselves confirm a healing..

  51. If RD equates the likelihood of the existence of God with the likelihood of there being leprechauns then there can be no doubt where he stands. Likelihood? Zilch! (Actually this is an incredibly dumb statement from such a mega-brain in view of the relative evidence for both.)

    I only stepped into this because the arrogant dismissal of many that it could even be remotely possible that these girls had been healed lacked the intellectual rigor I’d expected to find.

    And when it comes to 30,000 kids a day dying, are you sure it is not selfish human kind who should take the blame – seeing there are more then enough resources available to bring this to an end. And meanwhile, vast numbers of those active in bringing change are doing so motivated by their ‘foolish’ belief in God.

  52.  How do you do those nice little quoted indents? I’d like to catch up!!

    Meanwhile – ” No peter, it is bullshit because this man did not heal anyone by praying.

    But you don’t empirically know that even though it might be true.

    And I don’t feel in any way cornered. All facts and ideas welcome.

  53. Agreed that ‘God-did-it-by-magic is the stock knowledge gap-filler of the scientifically ignorant and wishful thinkers’. However there are those of us who are neither of these things and who accept that if there is a God (I do have a particular one in mind!) he would have the ability to do this kind of thing without magic.

    Agreed too that ‘A critical thinker’s open mind . . . .is open to evidenced, reasoned, tested, information, not whimsical stories or wild speculations!’ You have well described the basis on which I – and countless others – have reached my conclusion that God is a reasonable proposition.

    However, you say ‘the onus of proof is on those claiming the existence of their pet god!’ Not at all. First, there is no proof that would satisfy you. I know as I’ve been round the block with enough atheists to know. Second, an assertion that something ‘isn’t’ is equally demanding of ‘proof’ as an assertion that something ‘is’. Which leaves us both needing to exercise faith in the evidence that seems most reasonable to us.

  54.  And when it comes to 30,000 kids a day dying, are you sure it is not selfish human kind who should take the blame – seeing there are more then enough resources available to bring this to an end. And meanwhile, vast numbers of those active in bringing change are doing so motivated by their ‘foolish’ belief in God.

     

    Of course it would help if their crazy views about reality had not lead to our population spiralling out of control to the point that we face almost certain environmental apocalypse for our grandchildren. Still a bandaid here and there must be a good thing.

    Michael

  55.  Agreed too that ‘A critical thinker’s open mind . . . .is open to evidenced, reasoned, tested, information, not whimsical stories or wild speculations!’ You have well described the basis on which I – and countless others – have reached my conclusion that God is a reasonable proposition.  

     

    So you are OK with disease, Tsunamis, earthquakes, the whole problem of evil thing captured by David Attenborough’s quote:

     I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that’s going to make him blind. And [I ask them], ‘Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child’s eyeball? Because that doesn’t seem to me to coincide with a God who’s full of mercy’. 

    Perhaps you don’t think God is merciful or is completely indifferent to us.  That would be an interesting proposition that I would have more trouble refuting. 

    Michael

  56. But not when the person involved was dead, when deformities disappear, when a coronary artery bypass is no longer needed, or when doctors themselves confirm a healing..

    I really didn’t see that on your link.  It was a few cases of MS, 2 hemiplegia cases and a few others. 

  57. Agreed too that
    ‘A critical thinker’s open mind . . . .is open to evidenced, reasoned, tested, information, not whimsical stories or wild speculations!’
    You have well described the basis on which I – and countless others – have reached my conclusion that God is a reasonable proposition.

    I have heard this claim many times, but when I ask for evidence and reasoning based on it, all sorts of vague ambiguities, logical fallacies, contorted semantics, and tangled thinking are produced. – But no evidence of observable properties.

    However, you say ‘the onus of proof is on those claiming the existence of their pet god!’
    Not at all. First, there is no proof that would satisfy you. I know as I’ve been round the block with enough atheists to know.

    No one has produced any such proof – They a have simply fallaciously asserted that their assertions have validity unless disproved!
    This can be seen as ridiculous by applying it to all possible assertions!
    If you dispute the onus of proof:
    - do I take it, you believe in all the the thousands of gods on my link, (which you have not disproved) the contradictory claims made for them, and all the magic they are claimed to perform? – along with fairies leprechauns goblins the real mythical Harpies and Hydra etc? – Or have you just uncritically accepted the one god in your local culture without thinking much about the probabilities and inconsistencies??

    Second, an assertion that something ‘isn’t’ is equally demanding of ‘proof’ as an assertion that something ‘is’.

    It is not possible to prove/disprove a negative unless some contradictory positive is available. 
    Anyone who cannot dismiss the highly improbable in everyday life, is unable to dismiss anything, and inevitably ends up with a mind cluttered with erroneous rubbish. (Bucket with no lid analogy.)
    The “faithful” will however, cling to belief in the remotest of possibilities, and ignore the highly probable explanations which are consistent with the laws of science.

    Which leaves us both needing to exercise faith in the evidence that seems most reasonable to us.

    Reason is a deductive process (in science starting with evidence). It is not just emotionally choosing something that feels good!
    The independent, objective system, of repeated testing of published results in technical scientific journals, gives a much higher quality of evidence, than conjecture, hearsay, and personal subjective fancies.

    “Faith” is belief without proof or evidence.  (Faith is confidence, but confidence is not merely faith! ) Confidence built on tried and tested methods producing testable results, is quite different. 

    faith –
    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
    2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.http://www.thefreedictionary.c

    That is why claimed material examples of the paradoxical supernatural, such as miracle cures, can be readily disproved and dismissed as being at the extremely unlikely end of the range of possibilities.

    Those claiming them are simply indulge in wishful thinking, charlatanism, and incredulity based on their own ignorance of the much more probable scientific explanations. – These involve substituting “god-did-it-magic-ignorance for:  placebo effects, natural bodily healing mechanisms, sloppy mistakes, deceptions, the psychological need to really, really, really, want to believe in magic, and the a love of exaggeration and impressive sensational stories!

    The “supernatural” is a paradox:-
    If it has ANY effect in the material universe, – it is a natural phenomena and is detectable by scientific measurements of matter and energy.  If it has NO effect, it is irrelevant or non-existent!
    Crystal healing energy and such are bunk, – if they existed other than as conjuring tricks, they would be detectable and measurable!

  58. Peter41 says:

    And when it comes to 30,000 kids a day dying, are you sure it is not selfish human kind who should take the blame – seeing there are more then enough resources available to bring this to an end. And meanwhile, vast numbers of those active in bringing change are doing so motivated by their ‘foolish’ belief in God.

    Oh I quite agree that poverty in the world is as a result of the way human society is organised.  God has absolutely nothing to do with it.  However from the POV of a believer in an almighty, loving and caring God with omnipotent powers, He apparently does nothng to alleviate the suffering of the majority of His creation, whilst occasionally lifting a couple of girls out of their wheel chairs, as other have stated, a “miracle” perfectly explainable by natural means !

    As to Peter’s claim not to be religious, but also to pray to God, it seems to me self contradictory.  And as George Carlin pointed out, praying for God to alter His cosmic plan, is a dammed impertinence ! Who is Peter to ask God to change His plan ! He obviously wants those kids to live miserable lives and die in horrible circumstances. I wouldn’t pray to such a monster.

  59. Alan4discussion and Ignorant Amos:

    “Walking on water is easy!  – It is doing it without the skis, the tow-line, the boat, or the surf-board, which is difficult!”
    “I seen Dynamo doing it on Discovery Max…neat trick, but still a trick.”

    No need for all that fancy stuff… a simple phase change will do it for ya!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I
    Merry Christmas!
    Steve

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