Clearing some doubts about religion

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Discussion by: siladityaaich
Hey,i’m an atheist from India. While having a discussion with my muslim friend on religion,he told me that the qurran talks about the big bang theory and things about embryology and that the qurran even talks about the geo-spherical shape of the earth, these were only recently discovered by scientists only a few years back.Hence he says the qurran could have only been written by the creator of this earth since the qurran was written about 14000 years ago. How much of it is true,and how can i counter his claims?

47 COMMENTS

  1. Yes, well. All religious texts and astrology, for example, are couched in the most general terms possible to allow for any interpretation as required to bolster one crackpot idea after another. The world was know to be a sphere centuries before christianity came along – it was just forgotten, or deliberately concealed, by the nut cases who made up the stories that billions now “believe.”

    As to counter his/her claims say, “put your money where your mouth is – show me.”

  2. It is funny when Muslims relate Islam and sciece, which are totally opposite to each other..!!! For example, quran says that sperms are formed between the back bone and ribs. Quran 86:5-7 “So let man observe from what he was created. He was created from a fluid, ejected, Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs”

  3. big bang theory

    The Koran says everything was once touching and expanded out from there. This is not an idea unique to the Big Bang or Islam. Jewish mystics have asserted this, saying space expands and that this is how creation occurs. Eastern philosophers have also noted emptiness is form. The imagery is abstract and not too compelling, but I’m charitable and grant this one. It’s kinda cool

    things about embryology

    In the ancient world there were two competing theories, animalcules and epigenesis. Animalcule theory teaches humans start out as microscopic versions of full grown humans that simply grow large. Epigenesis was developed by Aristotle and teaches organism grow by tissues changing (which is what what happens). The Jewish Book of Genesis was written during the animalcule era, and states that every human that would ever live existed in microscopic form in Adam’s testicles. Mohammed (pbuh) was a pedophile and a murderer who lived in the time when epigenesis was becoming popular, so he (pbuh) included the theory in the Koran. It then goes on to claim that the woman is just an incubator, and all hereditary traits come from the male. Here is some ridiculous propaganda comparing the shape of an embryo to chewing gum.
    http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

    qurran even talks about the geo-spherical shape of the earth

    “The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment.”
    —Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, 1993

    This is a controversy amongst Muslims. Those who say the Earth is flat are reading the Koran correctly. Those who say the Earth is egg-shaped are butchering the Koran.

    .
    The Koran also claims the existence of Jinn, that saltwater and freshwater can not mix, that nothing can explain the flight of birds except divine intervention, air pressure increases with elevation, and lots of other ridiculous things.

    This is a good site to look up claims about Islam and the Koran (it’s critical): http://www.wikiislam.net

  4. @sila

    Here is a Muslim source that talks about the shape of the earth, so he can’t accuse you of using biased sources:

    http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667

    “… Therefore, the claim that the Earth is shaped like an ostrich egg is not only unfounded scripturally, it is scientifically inaccurate. “

    In this case it was a mistranslation, but as other posters have pointed out, some of the things in the Quran are so generally described that they can sometimes be made to fit a situation. Unless it unambiguously states a previously unknown scientific fact in detail then it’s not reasonable to say that there is a connection with scripture.

    Also here is a very thorough debunking of the embryology claim made by some Muslim “scholars” (like the fool Hamza Tzortzis).
    http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.co.uk/

  5. While having a discussion with my muslim friend on religion,he told me that the qurran talks about the big bang theory…

    As has been said, request citations to see exactly which Surah’s your pal is referring to in the book.

    In the meantime, the Qu’ran wasn’t written by either Allah or Mohammed. The Qu’ran did not exist as a book at the time of Mohammed’s death in 632. It is a collection of alleged sayings that Mo was supposed to have received, at his convenience may I add, and that were gathered together from hearsay some decades after Mo’s demise.

    “This truncated understanding of the universe[in the Qu'ran] is responsible for the fact that there is no actual discussion of the creation of a “universe” in the Qur’an at all. The Qur’an is completely silent on the “big bang” because it clearly has no awareness whatsoever of a universe that preexisted the creation of the planet Earth, or extended outwards into infinite space. It has no understanding of galaxies, or clusters of galaxies, or quasars or pulsars… any of the OTHER things that could have easily been mentioned by an omniscient Allah, and left us no room for quibbling.”

    http://mukto-mona.net/Articles/huxley/islam_big_bang.htm

    …and things about embryology…

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Embryology_in_the_Qur%27an

    …and that the qurran even talks about the geo-spherical shape of the earth,….

    Yet Muslim scholars support a flat earth hypothesis.

    “The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment.”
    —Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, 1993

    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Qur%27an

    …these were only recently discovered by scientists only a few years back.

    Nope….see flat earth wiki above.

    Hence he says the qurran could have only been written by the creator of this earth since the qurran was written about 14000 years ago. How much of it is true,and how can i counter his claims?

    See the following… http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Origins_of_the_Qur%27an

    The religious believer is either gullibility brainwashed or a liar….I hope your mate is the former.

    Enjoy.

  6. Animalcule theory teaches humans start out as microscopic versions of full grown humans that simply grow large.

    I understand this as the Homunculus….is it the same thing with a different label?

  7. “The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment.” —Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, 1993

    This is a controversy amongst Muslims. Those who say the Earth is flat are reading the Koran correctly. Those who say the Earth is egg-shaped are butchering the Koran.

    Yip….according to the Qu’ran…the Earth is flat and likened to a carpet.

  8. These statements are absolutely typical and utterly false. Muslims generally accept what the Imam at the mosque tells them and as few as 20% understand modern Arabic (even fewer classical Arabic of the Koran). So they are easily brainwashed by those in theocratic authority, even if not indoctrinated in childhood.
    Unique to Islam is that it is in fact a socio- political dogma more than a religion, governing most aspects of everyday life for Muslims.
    You will find your friend fiercely protective of the many lies and ridiculous claims in the Koran/Hadith/Sunnah; the most egregious that Islam is the “Religion of Peace” and that Muhammad was the perfect role model for all mankind. Just read some of the suggested sources to understand the weirdly inverted world of Islam and wonder at how Muslims can possibly make themselves ignorant of the violence, savagery, dishonesty, stupidity and general nonsense in their holy books.

  9. Na man, it’s bollocks, don’t get fooled.

    It’s just cherry picking. Creationist do that a lot with the Bible. Attributing the merest pattern matching scientific ideas (the benchmark in truth seeking) as a testament for the prescience of the Bible, discarding all the rest that don’t fit, then appropriating science’s achievements vicariously for their own purposes.

    It’s all ‘after the fact’ discoveries, they never discover anything by themselves, just finding justifications for their Faith. It’s connecting the dots, a basic human instinct (i.e. attributing known shapes to clouds, or shadow patterns to threats).

    You can ask him, where is his qurran-powered rocket, His qurran-powered particle accelerator, his qurran-powered deep field telescope, and his qurran theory of Relativity, Gravity, Quantum mechanics. If they contributed to any kind of useful experiments or useful tools to further man’s advancement. Be ready for some more vague waffle and useless litanies.

    Science rediscovering ancient truths never gets old. Hell, atoms are conceptually born from Greek philosophy (and Indian Philosophy too?). Something burried deep inside a lot of nonsense. Or You could say Democritus is the original discoverer of Quantum Mechanics and the atomic theory, but no,.. You can’t really.

  10. In reply to #8 by Ignorant Amos:

    Animalcule theory teaches humans start out as microscopic versions of full grown humans that simply grow large.

    I understand this as the Homunculus….is it the same thing with a different label?

    I’ve learned a few definitions of homunculus (Cartesian Theater, reduced essence, spirit of a Golem), so very different from one another there might be a definition I still don’t know. However, I think this is a totally different theory. The animalcule theory is kind of like if a person were shrunk with a shrinking ray until they were the size of a microbe, still with eyes, ten fingers, and all details preserved.

  11. In reply to #14 by This Is Not A Meme:

    I’ve learned a few definitions of homunculus (Cartesian Theater, reduced essence, spirit of a Golem), so very different from one another there might be a definition I still don’t know. However, I think this is a totally different theory. The animalcule theory is kind of like if a person were shrunk with a shrinking ray until they were the size of a microbe, still with eyes, ten fingers, and all details preserved.

    Thanks for reminding me of the Cartesian Theatre…I’ve just melted my partners head with it and the ‘infinite regress’ problem…brilliant.

    My understanding of the homunculus was a fully formed wee person, but your reference led me onto Preformationism, so something learned today. Cheers again.

  12. In reply to #9 by Ignorant Amos:

    “The earth is flat. Whoever claims it is round is an atheist deserving of punishment.” —Sheik Abdul-Aziz Ibn Baaz, supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, 1993

    This is a controversy amongst Muslims. Those who say the Earth is flat are reading the Koran correctly. Those who say the Earth is egg-shaped are butchering the Koran.

    Yip….according to the Qu’ran…the Earth is flat and likened to a carpet.

    And don’t forget the mountains Allah uses to peg it down/ stop it shaking.

  13. Jews got the Big Bang right :

    God[...] separated the light from the darkness (Ge 1:3-5)

    There goes your dark matter.

    Unfortunately, they didn’t have a clue of what they were talking about.

  14. Would have been extremely easy to prove. Why didn’t God give us the Hubble constant, or the figures for the cosmic background radiation? I’d tell your friend that scientists didn’t believe in the big bang theory until these evidences had been demonstrated via the red-shift and confirmed via the cosmic background radiation. Something specific would be impressive.

  15. I will let others who understand the Quran answer your questions. Even if the information were true, ” a stopped clock is still correct twice a day.” Consider how much is incorrect. I, a western female, am truly grateful for not living in the middle east. The way the Muslims treat women is horrendous and inhumane. Your Muslim friend must not know that you are an atheist, otherwise you should be killed on the spot according to their Book.

  16. Heigh there, your friend needs to read another book its called The magic of reality by Richard Dawkins, it explains how we know what’s true, it explains how evolution works, and gives accounts of how we know it works, I don’t intend to sound condescending but its a good book for beginners, challenge her/ him asking him or her a number of questions about for example. ‘ how do rainbows form’ or why their no fossils of fronkeys or kangourilas questions that are explained by the book, its just a shame that there are millions of potential great minds out there lost in fairy land. The problem with the Qur’an and other religious scrap books is that the horse shite that’s written in them 2000 years ago couldn’t be disproved back then, now that it can be its up to very skilled salesmen eg priests- rabbis etc to to some how use every trick in there bag to peddle there ridiculous storys.

  17. I watched a man try to explain why the orbit of the earth around the sun at 50.000 mph yet the earth flys through space runs so smooth no knocks or bumps this can only be explained he claimed by the workings of an intelligent designer, he couldn’t explain why for example if his car wheel is slightly bias it will shake the crap out of his car why then can the earth spin at this incredible speed and we feel nothing. He needs to be put in a astronomy class full of students to repeat this crazy story, so the lecturer can highlight the downsides to crack-cocaine use.

  18. What he’s told you is a pack of lies.
    The death cult he’s a member of has become the subject of criticism and derision,and presumably he’s applying the Islamic principles of taquiyeh and hudna.
    Just ask him straight if he ‘s trying to convert you?
    And to give you a truthful answer.

  19. The problem with these kind of claims is that they are made after the scientific evidence is discovered. The few vague sentences in the Quran that your friend is talking about have not meant anything for hundreds of years; they have not given any information about the world and how it works. People have been reading the passages for centuries without being able to make any kind of discoveries about the state of the universe based on them.

    But then suddenly when modern science makes testable discoveries about the world, the believers can say “oh, but our texts have said that for centuries”. Their texts tell something about the world only after real information have been discovered by science. That’s how a selective, cherry-picking mind works. It tries to interpret and reinterpret old nonsensical texts to fit the current information. But the reason why the old texts seem to predict something is only because a believer’s imagination makes the connection between the text and modern fact afterwards.

    Here’s an example from the Bible: blood transfusions. For centuries people have read the Bible which says something along the lines that “you’re not allowed to eat blood”. Some followed this rule, most didn’t. At some point during the 20th century when successful blood transfusions began to be performed, some Christians banned this practice referencing to this part in the Bible. What was the result? People kept dying left and right, because they could not accept life saving blood transfusions. The only thing these believers could do was to helplessly watch their loved ones die and say that this was all “god’s plan”. They could not explain why god wanted people to die, even though transfusions were available. But nowadays there are apparently artificial blood substitutes (invented by science, of course) which these believers can use. And as a result these believers have begun saying that this was what god meant by the “do not eat blood” rule all along. He was waiting for the synthetic blood to be invented! God was right from the beginning! He banned blood transfusions between humans because he knew artificial blood was going to be discovered. So these religious people and all their loved ones who died over the years because they could not accept blood transfusions were righteous all along, because they followed the rule. And afterwards science invented artificial blood in accordance with god’s plan.

    So the believers’ logic is as follows: Blood transfusions are bad because one text in the Bible is interpreted to say so. There is no reasoning or explanation for this bizzare rule but the result is clear: people die when they could have been saved. The main problem however is this: they cannot make any conclusions about the world from this rule. At no point in history did they tell us how god will start saving human lives in the absence of blood transfusions. At no point did they tell us how the situation should be handled when god’s rule prohibits a simple procedure. Only decades later when science discovers – independently from religious guidance – artificial blood, these believers celebrate god because he has finally given them the “real”, permitted way of replenishing a body that is low on blood. Every time god gives us a solution for a problem it somehow comes only after it has been discovered by us humans.

    The same goes for the rules in the Quran. If you had asked a Muslim about the shape of the world based on the Quran before its spherical shape was established, he could not have given any accurate answers. In fact, many Muslims would have probably given you wildly different answers on this. The reason: the Quran has no accurate information on this. Only after science made the correct discoveries have Muslims been able to use these answers to claim that the vague parts of the Quran were right all this time.

  20. The problem with these kind of claims is that they are made after the scientific evidence is discovered. The few vague sentences in the Quran that your friend is talking about have not meant anything for hundreds of years; they have not given any information about the world and how it works. People have been reading the passages for centuries without being able to make any kind of discoveries about the state of the universe based on them.

    But then suddenly when modern science makes testable discoveries about the world, the believers can say “oh, but our texts have said that for centuries”. Their texts tell something about the world only after real information have been discovered by science. That’s how a selective, cherry-picking mind works. It tries to interpret and reinterpret old nonsensical texts to fit the current information. But the reason why the old texts seem to predict something is only because a believer’s imagination makes the connection between the text and modern fact afterwards.

    Here’s an example from the Bible: blood transfusions. For centuries people have read the Bible which says something along the lines that “you’re not allowed to eat blood”. Some followed this rule, most didn’t. At some point during the 20th century when successful blood transfusions began to be performed, some Christians banned this practice referencing to this part in the Bible. What was the result? People kept dying left and right, because they could not accept life saving blood transfusions. The only thing these believers could do was to helplessly watch their loved ones die and say that this was all “god’s plan”. They could not explain why god wanted people to die, even though transfusions were available. But nowadays there are apparently artificial blood substitutes (invented by science, of course) which these believers can use. And as a result these believers have begun saying that this was what god meant by the “do not eat blood” rule all along. He was waiting for the synthetic blood to be invented! God was right from the beginning! He banned blood transfusions between humans because he knew artificial blood was going to be discovered. So these religious people and all their loved ones who died over the years because they could not accept blood transfusions were righteous all along, because they followed the rule. And afterwards science invented artificial blood in accordance with god’s plan.

    So the believers’ logic is as follows: Blood transfusions are bad because one text in the Bible is interpreted to say so. There is no reasoning or explanation for this bizzare rule but the result is clear: people die when they could have been saved. The main problem however is this: they cannot make any conclusions about the world from this rule. At no point in history did they tell us how god will start saving human lives in the absence of blood transfusions. At no point did they tell us how the situation should be handled when god’s rule prohibits a simple procedure. Only decades later when science discovers – independently from religious guidance – artificial blood, these believers celebrate god because he has finally given them the “real”, permitted way of replenishing a body that is low on blood. Every time god gives us a solution for a problem it somehow comes only after it has been discovered by us humans.

    The same goes for the rules in the Quran. If you had asked a Muslim about the shape of the world based on the Quran before its spherical shape was established, he could not have given any accurate answers. In fact, many Muslims would have probably given you wildly different answers on this. The reason: the Quran has no accurate information on this. Only after science made the correct discoveries have Muslims been able to use these answers to claim that the vague parts of the Quran were right all this time.

  21. Seek evidence! People can say all they want, but their claims need to be backed up with evidence. Simple!
    I know that what you have been told does not exist in Quran, because I was born in an Islamic country and had to take compulsory and extremely stupid Islamic courses. Religious people lie a lot to please their imaginary God. This is what religion does to human mind, and Islam is one of the worst in 21st century.

    I hope you are really an atheist (no offence intended).

  22. Unless it literally says the universe was once small and has since expanded uniformly so that today sufficiently far about objects move apart at speeds proportional to their current separations, it doesn’t assert there was a Big Bang.

  23. This is nonsense you can be sure. The Koran would need to be interpreted to get any such meaning as your friend asserts, the issue being the mechanism he uses to make the interpretation. No where are you going to find reference to “Big Bang Theory” or “Geo-Spherical”. Any attempt to correlate these concepts is simply human projection on interpretational text.

  24. In reply to #2 by stuhillman:

    Yes, well. All religious texts and astrology, for example, are couched in the most general terms possible to allow for any interpretation as required to bolster one crackpot idea after another. The world was know to be a sphere centuries before christianity came along – it was just forgotten, or deliberately concealed, by the nut cases who made up the stories that billions now “believe.”

    OOPS- Stu, I misread your screen name as “stillhuman”

    As to counter his/her claims say, “put your money where your mouth is – show me.”

  25. Regardless of what you have been told about Quran or any other bronze age textbook, you should demand evidence for the existence of God. Whether or not earth was claimed to be flat by the then Charlatans, who wrote the book, is irrelevant. You need evidence to prove that God created everything including cosmos.

  26. Hi Friend, Quran is not 14000 years old, its 1400 years old, and if u want to counter other claims, please read an english version, m sure the person who speaks to you is an extremist and is trying to bother you, the best place i could read the true meanings of Quran is http://www.alislam.org, try it out, I will also find out the solutions to your questions and let u know, u too let me know if u find any…

  27. also a book which is too huge.. revelation, rationality and truth, I was watching it just now to acclaim answers to your Muslim friend… u can also watch this to get a clear picture to answer him urself

  28. The so called Holey Books are filled with unsubstantiated claims made by a bunch of charlatans in savage ages. They cannot present any evidence in any way for the existence of God. They do not contain any existential evidence of any form for the existence of God. They contain stories, which demonstrate backwardness and savagery of the time. They mean nothing to me! Nor should it mean anything to you!

  29. I was talking to a Kurdish friend recently. He did what a lot of people do, picked something he had heard the Koran revealed about the world that’s only been recently proven to be true, and then presenting that as interesting evidence for the existence of Allah.

    I think once you point out to people what they are doing they can start to think more clearly about there needing to be high quality evidence to back up religious claims and belief systems.

  30. I’ve investigated every Quran miracle claim and made videos about some of them, show him these…

    Debunking false miracle claims

    A few on why the Quran is rubbish

    And finally, a channel dedicated to interviewing scientists to expose how their opinions of the Quran were deliberately misrepresented + a channel by ex-Muslims

  31. It’s interesting to note that Muslim scientists during the Golden Age of Islam not only laid the groundwork for what would be known today as the Scientific Method, but pioneered science in many areas, and helped Europe recover from the Dark Ages. Perhaps this is less an expression of the religious institution itself and more an affirmation that scientists can (or at least, have) worked in that paradigm, but given that many of said scientists used Greek philosophies as a starting point, they clearly were not interpreting everything in the Qu’ran word for word.

  32. “No verse in the koran indicates that the earth is round or that it rotates”

    “Anything that has no indication in the koran is false”
    ( cars, computers, genetics, steam engines, etc.)

    “The moon’s diameter is 1,200,000 km, while that of the sun is 2,400,000 km”

    “The earth is flat”

    “No doctor has managed to work out how the eye works”

    So reports an Iraqi scientist (contradicted by another Iraqi scientist) here:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdQUseNQM0c

  33. The vast majority of scientific claims made by the ignorant goat herders who wrote the koran and bible between 1400 and 2000 years ago have been proven false by further investigation. Each of these claims was treated by the religious as the absolute true word of god or allah at one time or another, until it was proved false by science, whereupon the claim suddenly becomes a metaphor which is no longer taken literally.

    Do you really think it’s fair to conveniently ignore all the false statements in the koran, but when one interpretation (of many) is vaguely similar to the truth that it’s okay to stand up and shout “Look! Look at the accuracy! ” I would say that it’s just biased sample selection, but the claims are so vague and open to interpretation that it’s not even worthy of that description. It’s worse than biased sample selection – it’s twisting your interpretation to make up your own samples.

    Your friend’s claim is like saying that the Native Americans new all about bacteria and the causes of diseases; they just had a different name for them: Evil Spirits.

  34. The Big Bang In The Quran?

    021.030: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder?

    The Big Bang happened about 13.7 billion years ago.
    The Earth formed 4.5 billion years ago.
    So the Earth didn’t exist until 9 billion years after the BB.

    Pregnancy In The Quran

    023.013/014: Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
    Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood;

    Sperm doesn’t grow into a clot, it fertilisers an egg and it’s the egg that grows.
    Where’s the egg?

    Spherical Earth

    There’s nothing about the earth being a sphere in the Quran.

  35. Whilst I’m not sure what passages your friend is referring to, I’m sure that there is nothing explicit about the scientific area of big bang theory, embryology or geology in the quran, outside of what was known when the chapter was written. If amazing truths exist in the holy books, why are they never mentioned before the scientific field of study is developed? Why are these books never used as a scientific resource?

    This retrospective fact-finding exercise is analogous to Christians reading ‘and God said let there be light, and there was light’ and saying “Look, the Bible talks about nuclear fusion within stars!” However, it is likely your friend did not find these passages, but heard it whilst at the mosque or from a friend.

  36. You can ask him : if the verses were that clear at the time , why Muslims at the time never had a clue that the earth was round ?! you can add why their prophet Mohammed never told them that it was round at the time since they claim that he went flying to the skies on a the night on Israa and Mi’rage , couldn’t he see the earth from there and tell them that it was round ? I found that the easiest way ti confront these claims is to ask them : if the Quran has all the scientific discoveries in it , can you tell me what will be the next scientific discovery from the Quran ?

  37. None of them are true.
    There are no “scientific evidence” within Quran that proves the book is holy and divine.
    Some examples (taken from web sites in Turkish that claims Big Bang is told by Quran):
    Zariyat 46-47. is given as an evidence for Big Bang by some Islamic theologians in Turkey.
    English translation: “We have builded the sky and there is no doubt that our power is adequate for everything. We also furnished the earth. We are so beautiful furnishers.”
    Enbiya 30.
    English Translation: “Those who denied, didn’t they see that we have seperated the sky from earth when they were adjoined, and we have created all “living” from water? Still they don’t believe?”
    Do you see any relationship between “big-bang” and these “ayet”s?
    I’m sure every book, even epic of Gilgamesh includes such vague sentences that could be linked with modern theories.
    Don’t afraid, you can easily counter any Muslim claims about “Science”. But, you cannot reason with them.

    Note: These English translations were made by me, from “official” Qoran translation (made by religious works-Diyanet İşleri) in Turkey. Unfortunately, I do not know Arabic to make these translations directly to English.
    For further information about pseudo-science in Qoran, you can visit http://www.turandursun.com.

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