Pro evolutionary Islam

36


Discussion by: TheRationalizer
Many of you may already be familiar with Usama Hasan, a UK Imam who received quite a negative response for suggesting to a Muslim audience that humans share a common ancestor with modern apes.

Seemingly undeterred he is participating in a discussion Have Muslims misunderstood evolution? To be held on Jan 5th in London.  I expect that the vagueness of the Quran will make it possible for him to argue that while the book does not describe evolution it also does not outright contradict it either.  To achieve this he would have to dismiss ahadith (stories of Muhammad’s life) which is where the most ridiculously silly stories of Islam arise from, and from where most of the inhumane aspects of Shariah based law derives, so influencing people towards Quran-only (if not apostasy) is a great cause.

If you are interested in the subject but unable to attend the event in London you will be able to see Mr Hasan discussing the subject on The Jinn and tonic show on the 13th of January.

36 COMMENTS

  1. On the one hand I admire his bravery to defy a lot of angry guys who see him as a heretic, and for wanting to share with other Muslims some knowledge that he is too intellectually honest to deny. On the other hand, I kind of expect and hope that the Qur’an is too obviously incompatible with human evolution so that this conflict will make it easier for many doubters to leave the religion.

    I notice there’s been a lot of tweeting yesterday about his recent debate on evolution with Qadhi. There could be many Muslims who might watch and call in to your show (I replied to many of them to let them know). You could share on Muslim forums perhaps.

  2. Seem to recall that in the (so-called0 Golden Age, muslim thinkers were ahead of their time in evolutionary belief. Like everything else in Islam, it’s gone downhill with the return to ‘pure’ Islam.
    It’s a good start but what would really make an impact would be televised discussion on the koran; put top Islamic ‘scholars’ on the spot to answer each verse of infidel hatred point by point and be rebutted.
    This would surely wake up all the western dhimmis and Islam ignorami (!) and millions of muslims who know nothing of these verses.
    It is claimed that 61% of koranic verses are about the infidel; strange religion?

  3. Quiz question- which group of people does the following describe-

    Manipulative and Cunning
    They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
    Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”
    Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. 
    Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
    Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
    Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive.
    Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
    Incapacity for Love
    Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
    Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
    Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

  4. Dr Tawfik Hamid-

    “It is our absolute silence against the terrorists that gives the energy to these terrorists to continue doing their evil acts.  We Muslims need to stop blaming our problems on others or on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. As a matter of honesty, Israel is the only light of democracy, civilization, and human rights in the whole Middle East”

  5. In reply to #4 by Nodhimmi:

    Quiz question- which group of people does the following describe-

    Manipulative and Cunning
    They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
    Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”
    Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. 
    Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
    Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
    Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive.
    Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
    Incapacity for Love
    Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
    Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
    Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

    Is it Smurfs?

  6. In reply to #7 by HenMie:

    Have you thought of a career in horoscope writing?

    No, Nodhimmi is trying to characterise twenty one percent of the Earth’s population as psychopaths. That’s about one fifth. Astrology, I believe, prefers to divide us up by the months of the year, into groups of about eight percent each. He’d have to say that all Muslims were born in about the same three-month window for his views to count as horoscopy.

  7. In reply to #1 by bubbub:

    On the one hand I admire his bravery to defy a lot of angry guys who see him as a heretic, and for wanting to share with other Muslims some knowledge that he is too intellectually honest to deny. On the other hand, I kind of expect and hope that the Qur’an is too obviously incompatible with human evolution so that this conflict will make it easier for many doubters to leave the religion.

    I wouldn’t emphasise that leaving the religion or even losing one’s faith is a necessary consequence of accepting evolution. Apostasy is a much bigger deal in Islam than it is in a lot of other faiths; it can even come with a death sentence attached. If this becomes a hot-potato issue in Muslim communities, and the negative reaction Usama Hasan received from his audience suggests it could, then the position conservative imams and community leaders will adopt is one of either/or: it’s either your Koran or this evolution malarkey. Reactionaries will knock themselves out trying to prove that the two are incompatible; they’ll put believing in evolution on the same level as eating pork or reading a Muslim kid the Talmud as a bedtime story.

    I know it’s tantamount to blasphemy to suggest this, given it’s a tenet of faith on sites like this one that the very thing evolution does is refute all religious books, but I think the best strategy is one which emphasises that the Koran’s teachings don’t necessarily contradict evolution (that is, if we mean to help and don’t just want to leave them to their own devices), and it’s possible to be an observant sociopath… sorry, I mean Muslim (I must have been thinking about comment no.4) whilst simultaneously accepting the truth of evolutionary theory.

    Think of it as a chink in the armour, the weakest link in a chain, the hairline crack in the dam which grows larger until one day – surf’s up! And all the scientific knowledge, and the liberalism and tolerance which go hand-in-hand with scientific advancement, come pouring out.

    So forget about the Koran’s being incompatible with evolution. The Garden of Eden stuff is common to all three books of the Abrahamic faith, and until the Christian evangelicals crawled out of the primordial slime and decided to make life miserable for everyone around them, evolution was sort of accepted by most people. It probably still is today. I don’t believe these surveys which say the majority of Americans think the Bible is literally true and there really was a talking snake and the first woman was made out of the rib of the first man, who was himself made out of clay; and even if this is what they profess to believe, you sorta know that they don’t really , they’re just hedging their bets on the off chance they’re wrong and the man upstairs is listening.

  8. In reply to #3 by Nodhimmi:

    ‘Misunderstood’ is the most important word in Islamic apology; however the most important to non-muslims is the word ‘taqiyya’…

    Taqiyya? I’d like to recommend a video for you to watch

  9. In reply to #6 by Katy Cordeth:

    In reply to #4 by Nodhimmi:

    Quiz question- which group of people does the following describe-

    Manipulative and Cunning
    They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
    Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”
    Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. 
    Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
    Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
    Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive.
    Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
    Incapacity for Love
    Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
    Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
    Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

    Is it Smurfs?

    Ha ha, excellent- and close- there seem to be 2 answers; psychopaths and Islamists

  10. In reply to #8 by Katy Cordeth:

    In reply to #7 by HenMie:

    Have you thought of a career in horoscope writing?

    No, Nodhimmi is trying to characterise twenty one percent of the Earth’s population as psychopaths. That’s about one fifth. Astrology, I believe, prefers to divide us up by the months of the year, into groups of about eight percent each. He’d have to say that all Muslims were born in about the same three-month window for his views to count as horoscopy.

    I wish you would stop misquoting me- where have I used “Muslim”???

  11. These are not my words, if only I were that eloquent! Lifted verbatim (from where I forget) but it did strike me how well they describe the behaviour of violent Islamists (hope you understand the distinction from Muslims, which KC does not). Not 100% correct though, as psychopaths are not delusional.

    In reply to #7 by HenMie:

    Have you thought of a career in horoscope writing?
    Seriously, spot on.

    In reply to #4 by Nodhimmi:

    Quiz question- which group of people does the following describe-

    Manipulative and Cunning

  12. Apostasy is a much bigger deal in Islam than it is in a lot of other faiths; it can even come with a death sentence attached.

    “can even come with a death sentence”

    Qur’an (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them”

    Recall Richard challenged a muslim scholar on T who was forced to admit- death is mandated for apostasy in the Koran

    [Edited by moderator to bring within Terms of Use]

  13. In reply to #8 by Katy Cordeth:

    In reply to #7 by HenMie:

    Have you thought of a career in horoscope writing?

    No, Nodhimmi is trying to characterise twenty one percent of the Earth’s population as psychopaths. That’s about one fifth. Astrology, I believe, prefers to divide us up by the months of the year, into groups of about eight percent each. He’d have to say that all Muslims were born in about the same three-month window for his views to count as horoscopy.

    Actually that may not be a bad approximation; psychopathy is not limited to serial killers. Up to 16 behavioural types have been identified, viz

    http://www.psychopath-research.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1837/16_Faces_of_a_Psychopath

    [Edited by moderator to bring within Terms of Use]

  14. In reply to #11 by TheRationalizer:

    In reply to #3 by Nodhimmi:

    ‘Misunderstood’ is the most important word in Islamic apology; however the most important to non-muslims is the word ‘taqiyya’…

    Taqiyya? I’d like to recommend a video for you to watch
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hYzeqOCMvY

    Watched some of it to get the gist- seems to be asserting taqiyya is a myth?

    Well, from the horse’s mouth-
    Qur’an (16:106) – Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.

    Qur’an (3:28) – This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves.”

    Qur’an (9:3) – “…Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters…” The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

    Qur’an (40:28) – A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must “hide his faith” among those who are not believers.

    Qur’an (2:225) – “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts” The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

    Qur’an (66:2) – “Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths”

    Qur’an (3:54) – “And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

  15. In reply to #11 by TheRationalizer:

    In reply to #3 by Nodhimmi:

    ‘Misunderstood’ is the most important word in Islamic apology; however the most important to non-muslims is the word ‘taqiyya’…

    Taqiyya? I’d like to recommend a video for you to watch
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hYzeqOCMvY

    Hmmm… don’t think so…

    The Qur’an:
    Qur’an (16:106) – Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.

    Qur’an (3:28) – This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves.”

    Qur’an (9:3) – “…Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters…” The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

    Qur’an (40:28) – A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must “hide his faith” among those who are not believers.

    Qur’an (2:225) – “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts” The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

    Qur’an (66:2) – “Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths”

    Qur’an (3:54) – “And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

     “Allah is the best of schemers.” 

  16. Can the Qur’an be called vague on evolution? Here are some quotes from the translation by Majid Fakhry which carries the approval of Al-Azhar, Cairo.

    7.54 Your Lord is truly Allah, who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then he sat upon the throne……

    50.38 Indeed, We have created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six days, and We were not touched by weariness.

    There are several more equally unambiguous verses which can be found by using the Qur’an concordance at http://www.quranbrowser.com and typing in ‘six’ as the search word.

    Yhwh apparently needed a rest after his six days of creation whereas Allah did not!

  17. A very comprehensive and accurate analysis Nodhimmi.
    These questions should be put to Muslims on television .
    Their social outlook borders on the psychopathic .In reply to #4 by Nodhimmi:

    Quiz question- which group of people does the following describe-

    Manipulative and Cunning
    They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
    Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as “their right.”
    Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. 
    Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
    Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt. A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
    Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive.
    Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
    Incapacity for Love
    Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
    Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others’ feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
    Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

  18. In reply to Nodhimmi:

    …but it did strike me how well they describe the behaviour of violent Islamists (hope you understand the distinction from Muslims, which KC does not).

    I wish you were more consistent, then, in making this distinction. You write these virulent comments about Muslims and when someone calls you on it, your response is to say “Oh, no, no, I’m only talking about Islamists, not ordinary Muslims”, a claim which loses any credibility when you write things like this:

    Islam is exposing itself to more ridicule, the more it screams its message of hate. Solution- 1. Stop Muslim immigration 2. Ditto mosque construction 3. Repatriate where possible 4. Ban the koran as the hate-mongering evil it is 5. Educate children (and ignorant adults) as to what is mandated in that book 6. Block Islamic websites 7. Ban Islam itself and public worship 8. Most important- tell Islamists that the west repudiates The Religion of Peace

    Of course, this is all fantasy. Our liberal leftist airhead leaders and supporters have no idea what it is they are tolerating and are leading us to Dhimmitude, or its alternative, mass slaughter.

    If you hate Muslims, then that’s fine; we’re all allowed our prejudices (I have an irrational hatred of bigots), but at least own up to it.

    Oh, and you can’t keep quoting Koranic verses as evidence that Muslims are immoral and also maintain that most Muslims are ignorant of the book having never even read it.

  19. The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same

    In reply to #17 by Nodhimmi:

    Watched some of it to get the gist- seems to be asserting taqiyya is a myth?

    Qur’an (16:106) – Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.

    You are allowed to reject your faith as long as you are being physically forced to do so and as long as you don’t mean it. It’s just a better option than being fed to Roman lions.

    Qur’an (3:28) – This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves.”

    It says not to take them as allies/protectors instead of Muslims unless you fear for your safety.

    Qur’an (9:3) – “…Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters…” The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.

    This doesn’t say Muslims are allowed to lie about their religion.

    Qur’an (40:28) – A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must “hide his faith” among those who are not believers.

    1: Pharaoh was persecuting monotheists
    2: Pharaoh’s family member was a monotheist
    3: Keeping it secret was okay due to physical danger

    Qur’an (2:225) – “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts” The context of this remark is marriage, which explains why Sharia allows spouses to lie to each other for the greater good.

    It’s just saying that off-the-cuff remarks are not binding as is a well considered oath.

    Qur’an (66:2) – “Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths”

    The bit in brackets is a comment, it’s not in the Quran itself. This is a dissolution by Allah of Muhammad’s oath to stop having sex with his slave when his wife complained. Allah dissolved the oath because it is okay to have sex slaves in Islam.

    23:5-6
    70:29-30

    Qur’an (3:54) – “And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.” The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)

    So whatever Allah can do humans are permitted to do also? Like torturing others in fire?

    Sites like TheReligionOfPeace.com (from where you copy/pasted this) are only interested in spreading misinformation so that people distrust (and hate) Muslims. Spreading misinformation makes Muslims distrust honest criticism of their religion and they stop paying attention. This site makes it more difficult for decent people (who happen to be Muslims) to see that their religion does not meet their own morality levels. Please stop spreading rubbish. Islam is bad enough to not have to make stuff up.

    Here are some useful links
    http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp
    http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?LanguageId=2

    And some objective criticism
    http://www.youtube.com/therationalizer
    http://www.youtube.com/klingschor
    http://www.youtube.com/lorientalist
    http://www.youtube.com/cembadmins
    http://www.youtube.com/thejinnandtonicshow
    http://www.youtube.com/stopspamming1
    http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise

  20. Newboy joining the debate here. In the true spirit of open discussion & learning, the Muslimmatters website contains a link to the response against evolution, by Shayakh Yasir Qadhl, but no link to the speech by Usama Hasan to which it is responding! On that basis I can’t see the debate moving very fast amonst its target audience.

  21. In reply to #21 by Katy Cordeth:

    In reply to Nodhimmi:

    …but it did strike me how well they describe the behaviour of violent Islamists (hope you understand the distinction from Muslims, which KC does not).

    I wish you were more consistent, then, in making this distinction. You write these virulent comments about Muslims and when someone calls you on it, your response is to say “Oh, no, no, I’m only talking about Islamists, not ordinary Muslims”, a claim which loses any credibility when you write things like this:

    Islam is exposing itself to more ridicule, the more it screams its message of hate. Solution- 1. Stop Muslim immigration 2. Ditto mosque construction 3. Repatriate where possible 4. Ban the koran as the hate-mongering evil it is 5. Educate children (and ignorant adults) as to what is mandated in that book 6. Block Islamic websites 7. Ban Islam itself and public worship 8. Most important- tell Islamists that the west repudiates The Religion of PeaceOf course, this is all fantasy. Our liberal leftist airhead leaders and supporters have no idea what it is they are tolerating and are leading us to Dhimmitude, or its alternative, mass slaughter.

    If you hate Muslims, then that’s fine; we’re all allowed our prejudices (I have an irrational hatred of bigots), but at least own up to it.

    Oh, and you can’t keep quoting Koranic verses as evidence that Muslims are immoral and also maintain that most Muslims are ignorant of the book having never even read it.

    Yes, I see I did use the ‘M’ word once there; it would be difficult to identify what I term Islamists from ‘Muslims’ for immigration approval and yes, the great majority of muslims are good people. I know this from living in a muslim country where I have many muslim friends.
    Islamist I define as one who accepts all that the koran says as the literal word of Allah, unchangeable and unchallengeable- which of course means that jihad, jew hatred, infidel hatred, etc,etc then follows of necessity, otherwise said Islamist cannot be considered a true muslim. So it follows that ‘moderate muslims’ are in a difficult situation, having to reject, deny or pretend ignorance of what their holy book tells them. Maybe, like you, they genuinely are not aware of what’s in the book- are you?
    The solution to muslim migration would be to make it conditional on dropping Islamic belief. Not likely.
    What about the principle of quid pro quo? If a non-muslim wished to emigrate to some of the islamist countries they would demand he convert to Islam. No non-muslim can set foot in Mecca or Medina- is this reasonable?
    This discussion is going nowhere; your view seems to be Islam poses no threat to western values and plain statements about its evil are ‘vitriolic’ or ‘bigoted’. Tell me, where do you stand? Do you truly think Islam is “The religion of Peace” and its prophet “The most Perfect of Men”?

  22. Oh, and you can’t keep quoting Koranic verses as evidence that Muslims are immoral and also maintain that most Muslims are ignorant of the book having never even read it.

    I CAN’T? Says who? I think I said few muslims can read classical Arabic, from what I have researched. children in madrassas are forced to memorise koranic verses in Arabic even though most of them don’t speak it.
    Just yesterday that muslim mother got a life sentence for beating her son to death for being too slow to learn his verses; name me another ‘religion’ where such an atrocity would happen!

  23. If you hate Muslims, then that’s fine; we’re all allowed our prejudices (I have an irrational hatred of bigots), but at least own up to it.

    I slipped up here- hate is reserved for the ideology, NOT the people; except of course those who behead innocent people and put the video on UTube. Just an example…

  24. Islam is a religion of peace but only if you are of the same Islamic sect.Muslims will only befriend you as long as they have to.If Islam does not change it will fail sooner rather than later,and that means accepting Darwin’s evolution.

  25. In reply to #23 by Freethought:

    Newboy joining the debate here. In the true spirit of open discussion & learning, the Muslimmatters website contains a link to the response against evolution, by Shayakh Yasir Qadhl, but no link to the speech by Usama Hasan to which it is responding! On that basis I can’t see the debate moving very fast amonst its target audience.

    Welcome aboard, Freethought- what you observe is as expected, I think.

  26. In reply to #27 by richard jr miles:

    Islam is a religion of peace but only if you are of the same Islamic sect.Muslims will only befriend you as long as they have to.If Islam does not change it will fail sooner rather than later,and that means accepting Darwin’s evolution.

    There’s the Catch-22 situation in which Islam finds itself. Other religions have tied themselves in knots attempting to justify their beliefs and up to now Islam has been in almost total denial. Problem unique to Islam is the inviolability of the holy texts; having declared the koran the ‘perfect word of allah’ and ‘without error’ there’s nowhere to go.

  27. TheRationaliser-

    Ouch! I misread you completely- plenty of “rationalising” there, none of it rational.
    Why do you not declare your apologist status upfront, so nobody will “misunderstand” (another favourite word of Islamic deceivers).
    Good example of obfuscation in defence of the faith. Not to get bogged down in details, in response to your point-by-point rationalisations and list of videos, I’ll submit just ONE random example of the goodness of the ROP-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnDfeJH-8Rw

    As this has morphed into the usual ‘he said- she said’/ tit-for-tat I will end my involvement by asking that we focus on the important issue; what does Islam bring to western society and is it a positive contribution?
    Back to belief in evolution; feeling better now!

  28. In reply to #4 by Nodhimmi:
    “> Quiz question- which group of people does the following describe-Manipulative and Cunning They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviours as permissible.
    They appear to be charming …covertly hostile and domineering … victim as merely an instrument to be used … dominate and humiliate their victims…. grandiose Sense of Self … certain things as “their right.” Pathological … no problem lying coolly … almost impossible for them to be truthful … create a complex belief about their own powers and abilities … extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests… lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt … deep seated rage … sees others … as targets and opportunities… instead of friends they have victims …end always justifies the means … shallow Emotions When … Outraged by insignificant matters …Incapacity for Love … Verbal outbursts … Promiscuity and gambling are common … Callousness/Lack of Empathy … only contempt for others’ feelings of distress …. Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature Rage … Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.”

    sorry if this is 2nd reply – my laptop is messing about

    To be honest (and maybe this was the point you were going for), when I first read this I thought you were meaning Atheists. These are the same characteristics that are often used to demonise atheists.
    When holes are picked in a religious argument, that is deemed as victimising by those arrogant atheists.
    Being frustrated at the preferential and damaging treatment that religion gets is often depicted as anger against God.
    Atheists have no morals, so will gamble and screw and lie without remorse. Hitler and Stalin were atheist, therefore all atheists are Hitler…

    Generalising everyone who does not or does believe in religion does nothing.

  29. In reply to #11 by TheRationalizer:

    I listened to all of the rebuttal of ‘taqiyya’ that you linked to.

    I heard no such rebuttal though, it was no other than a series of nit-picking, hair-splitting arguments that failed to do the job. What does it matter if taqiyya is more associated with Shia than with Sunni Muslims?

    What does it matter if the word means lying for one reason more than another. The point remains that it is about lying for the sake of Islam and/or the best interest of Muslims in various circumstances. That the same rule would apply in any other culture is not quite true. Islam is the only culture that teaches lying if required in order to allay suspicion to approach a victim in order to murder that person. Even though he or she has done no more than voice rightful criticism of Mohammed. That Mohammed is recorded in the Sira doing exactly this, without any ‘defensive’ excuse, makes this normative for any Muslims still, today.

    A Muslim member of the Afghan forces has only just killed a British soldier, the latest of far too many, who was a non-Muslim ally. That Afghan Muslim murderer was an Imam, as it turned out. I would expect him to know about the life of Mohammed and the laws of Islam. Why else would such things keep happening. Taqiyya allows him to swear loyalty to his British or US colleagues while plotting to murder them.

    This point was raised but not properly addressed; so no, I think taqiyya is an evil tactic, particular to Islam

    ‘Misunderstood’ is the most important word in Islamic apology; however the most important to non-muslims is the word ‘taqiyya’…

    Taqiyya? I’d like to recommend a video for you to watch
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hYzeqOCMvY

  30. ” Generalising everyone who does not or does believe in religion does nothing”

    You’re right, it was naughty of me to put this forward. Just that it did fit the bill for islamic extremists!
    Again you are correct- he xtian right wing nutjobs view atheists this way, but they are every bit as deranged as the Islamists, so who cares?

  31. Quran is anything but vague about evolution.Quran mentioned clearly how Adam and Hawwa (Eve) were created in heaven by God as the first humans , and then were brought down to Earth.It also stated that Monkeys were in fact some tribes of Israelis who were punished by God and turned into Monkeys. The evolution in Quran is reveresed , humans are the ancestors of monkeys.There is no place for evolution in Quran which is really a very vague and ambiguous about many issues but evolution is not among them

  32. You suggest that koran-only Islam would be an improvement? Not so, it is replete with over 100 verses of violence plus numerous mentions of hatred, to infidels, ‘people of the book’ and atheists and Jews in particular. Apostasy? Rare and rightly so, when death is the koran’s punishment.

    Are you actually innocent of these facts?

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