Christian churches across Egypt stormed, torched

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For 67 years, the Virgin Mary Church has been a peaceful refuge for Shenouda El Sayeh, much like the Giza province village of Kafr Hakim where it rests and where he has lived all those years.


But, as he swept its floors on Thursday, it was painfully obvious things had changed.

The night before, a mob — chanting against Coptic Christians such as El Sayeh and calling for Egypt to become an "Islamic state" — had torched and looted the Virgin Mary Church.

"I didn't expect this to happen," El Sayeh said.

He's not alone. Christians all around Egypt are cleaning up in the aftermath of a spate of attacks, which came on the country's deadliest day since the 2011 revolution that overthrew longtime President Hosni Mubarak.

Bishop Angaelos, the Cairo-born head of the Coptic Orthodox Church in the United Kingdom, said he was told by colleagues in Egypt that 52 churches were attacked in a 24-hour span that started Wednesday, as well as numerous Christians' homes and businesses.

Written By: Kafr Hakim
continue to source article at cnn.com

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  1. In other words, it’s Krystallnacht redux. At this point, it’s not farfetched to predict that within the next five years, every Christian in Egypt will be meeting the same fate as their churches.

  2. These Coptics have my sympathies. This incident should provide a telling lesson to Christians here in the US and Europe as to what persecution is and isn’t. Perhaps they will realize that righteously crying foul over women’s health care is a tad bit asinine compared to the real, actual danger that Christians in the Middle East face.

  3. Yet more proof that religion is extremely divisive and dangerous. Despite this, millions of people around the world still are oblivious to that reality. I think the media is partly to blame. Some newspapers (at least the ones where I am from) will refrain from writing news that could be perceived as “accusatory” towards a religious belief. The “fear of political incorrectness” syndrome of so-called liberal democracies.

    I get my international news from here, not from the local media in Quebec because they miss (intentionally or not) a LOT of important news about what’s going on in the world.

    • In reply to #3 by NearlyNakedApe:

      I get my international news from here, not from the local media in Quebec

      There is some improvement though. I live in Montreal and read “La Presse”: it has been very fair in its coverage of Egypt, giving a voice to both the major sides of the conflict, the pro-army and the pro-Morsi.

  4. So sad. The Copts trace their roots back to Pharonic times. They converted to Christianity very early, and long before the Islamic Arabs swept all before them and took over Egypt. Religion or not, it’s poignant to hear of an ancient civilisation suffering its death throes.

  5. Other terrible stuff has been happening there for a long time. A lot of little girls from Christian families just disappear, and when they happen to be found by their parents veiled in the midst of a Muslim family somewhere, the cops just shrug and say they can’t help. A rampant problem.

    • In reply to #8 by Fouad Boussetta:

      Other terrible stuff has been happening there for a long time. A lot of little girls from Christian families just disappear, and when they happen to be found by their parents veiled in the midst of a Muslim family somewhere, the cops just shrug and say they can’t help. A rampant problem.

      Is this an urban myth, Fouad, like the Jewish blood libel, or do you have a source for your claim?

      • In reply to #10 by Katy Cordeth:

        Is this an urban myth, Fouad, like the Jewish blood libel, or do you have a source for your claim?

        I speak to lots of people who travel to Egypt to visit their families there.

        As usual, Katy Cordeth, you are only concerned about the poor persecuted Muslims and don’t give a rat’s ass about anyone else if they’re not Muslim. Maybe you should try to get worked out by the fate of Christians in the Middle-East. They also get mass-murdered, you know.

        • In reply to #14 by Fouad Boussetta:

          In reply to #10 by Katy Cordeth:

          Is this an urban myth, Fouad, like the Jewish blood libel, or do you have a source for your claim?

          I speak to lots of people who travel to Egypt to visit their families there.

          I’m sorry, Fouad, but saying you’ve spoken to a lot of people and citing that as evidence of the veracity of your claim that Christian children are routinely abducted to be raised as Muslims just won’t do. Unless you can provide some actual proof that this practice is commonplace, I’m inclined to take it with a large pinch of salt.

          As usual, Katy Cordeth, you are only concerned about the poor persecuted Muslims and don’t give a rat’s ass about anyone else if they’re not Muslim. Maybe you should try to get worked out by the fate of Christians in the Middle-East. They also get mass-murdered, you know.

          I give a rat’s ass about all sorts of people, Fouad. It just happens that on this particular website Muslims are the ones on the receiving end of most of the hatred site members have at their disposal. If Jews were vilified and dehumanised here the way Muslims routinely are I would probably spend a lot of time defending them. I’ve yet to hear anyone boast that they boycott Jewish businesses at RDnet though. I go where the hate is.

          I look forward to your providing some real evidence. If you cannot then I really think you ought to delete your comment no 8. Unsubstantiated and potentially inflammatory statements have no place on a site which claims to be dedicated to truth and facts.

          • In reply to #17 by Katy Cordeth:

            It just happens that on this particular website Muslims are the ones on the receiving end of most of the hatred site members have at their disposal.

            Do I hate some Muslims, yer dead right I do. Do I hate all Muslims? Define what a it is to be Muslim first.

            Do I hate some Christians, yer dead right I do. Do I hate all Christians? Define what it is to be Christian first.

            Do I hate some Jews, yer dead right I do. Do I hate all Jews? Define what it is to be a Jew first.

            If Jews were vilified and dehumanised here the way Muslims routinely are I would probably spend a lot of time defending them.

            Well it’s a bit of a false equivalence Katy. But there have been a number of articles where the comments have vilified and dehumanized the Jews at the centre of the controversy. Perhaps the numbers are low because Jews don’t carry out a fraction of the atrocities that Muslims or Christians do, perhaps the atrocious Jewish OP’s are not posted for some reason.

            But when they do, and the articles are posted here…they get the same vilification from me and others that the Muslims do. You yerself have commented on just such articles. The last nasty Jewish article I can remember was the one where the young female soldier was haranged by ultra orthodox fuckwits who demanded she be moved or put off…can’t find it, but I know it pissed me off.

            I’ve yet to hear anyone boast that they boycott Jewish businesses at RDnet though.

            I don’t boycott any businesses, my nearest supermarket is owned by Muslims…of sorts. I’m quite partial to kebabs, my nearest kebab shop is owned by Pakistani’s, I think they might be Muslims…of sorts…but they are nice people regardless of whatever religion they happen to be.

            I go where the hate is.

            Do you think it is wrong of me to hate men that rape wee girls and then condemn them to being stoned to death for being guilty of adultery? If yes, then I’m sorry if you fell that way. I hate religion, that includes the Islamic one. I also hate some religious, that includes some Muslims.

            But at least ya know where I stand.

          • In reply to #17 by Katy Cordeth:

            It just happens that on this particular website Muslims are the ones on the receiving end of most of the hatred site members have at their disposal.

            There are two possible reasons for this:

            1. There is something wrong with the site members (not all of them!).

            2. There is something wrong with Muslims (not all of them!).

      • In reply to #10 by Katy Cordeth:

        Is this an urban myth, Fouad, like the Jewish blood libel, or do you have a source for your claim?

        Google is your friend Katy.

        Missing Christian Girls Leave Trail of Tears

        “The local Salafi leader, whose ultra-conservative views condone the marriage of girls as young as nine, has a history of abducting Coptic Christian girls and forcing them to convert to Islam and marry Muslim men, claim rights activists.”

        ““The only thing unusual (about this case) was that the girl was returned,” says Nakhla. “In one case I investigated a kidnapped girl was allowed to call her parents, but in all others the girl was never heard from again.”

        “More than 500 Christian girls have been abducted in the last two years, according to the Association of Victims of Abduction and Forced Disappearance (AVAFD), which documents the disappearances. A growing number of cases involve girls between the ages of 13 and 17.”

        • In reply to #16 by Ignorant Amos:

          In reply to #10 by Katy Cordeth:

          Is this an urban myth, Fouad, like the Jewish blood libel, or do you have a source for your claim?

          Google is your friend Katy.

          Missing Christian Girls Leave Trail of Tears

          “The local Salafi leader, whose ultra-conservative views condone the marriage of girls as y…

          Thank you for the link, Amos.

          Although my friends pay their taxes.

          • In reply to #18 by Katy Cordeth:

            In reply to #16 by Ignorant Amos:

            Although my friends pay their taxes.

            Uhh? I’m intrigued, please elaborate?

          • In reply to #19 by Fouad Boussetta:

            In reply to #16 by Ignorant Amos:

            Here’s a very nice PDF: Tell My Mother That I Miss Her

            There are 34 pages in the report. How far did you get beyond the title? You might have noticed the statement from the US State Department which undermines your entire argument. Since I don’t doubt in the least that abuse of minors takes place in Egypt, I just draw your attention to the comment. My sympathies, incidentally, are entirely with the Copts in the sectarian conflict.

            The Department of State’s International Religious Freedom Report also spoke to the issue in 2010, stating:
            As in previous years, there were occasional claims of Muslim men forcing Coptic women and
            girls to convert to Islam. Reports of such cases were disputed and often included
            inflammatory allegations and categorical denials of kidnapping and rape. In November 2009
            an international Christian advocacy group published a report regarding alleged cases of forced
            conversion; however, well-respected local human rights groups were unable to verify such
            cases and found it extremely difficult to determine whether compulsion was used, as most
            cases involved a female Copt who converted to Islam when she married a male Muslim.
            Reports of such cases almost never appear in the local media.6

        • In reply to #16 by Ignorant Amos:

          The problem is compounded by polygamy. Some Muslims want 2, 3, or 4 wives. And when they get them, you have all these other remaining Muslim men who have trouble finding 1 wife. With all the social consequences. Also, while a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man, a Muslim man can marry a Christian woman no problem, converting her to Islam. With all the additional consequences. You have all those wifeless Muslim men abducting Christian women and girls.

  6. The Richard Dawkins religion is just as dangerous as any other religion as it also causes alot of hate towards religious people in general. so his set of beliefs are also very dangerous too.

    • In reply to #9 by TheWonderGoat:

      The Richard Dawkins religion is just as dangerous as any other religion as it also causes alot of hate towards religious people in general. so his set of beliefs are also very dangerous too.

      I can’t answer for Richard, although I would hope that he will find my comments pertinent.

      I love the great cathedrals of Europe, I respect many of the things about Christianity, and spent a very peaceful hour last Sunday looking around Glenstall Abbey and chatting to one of the monks.

      In ancient times the monastic system kept scholarship alive, during the violence and collapse after the fall of the Roman Empire. Christianity kept Islam out of most of Europe, (Humanity be praised!). With Aquinas, Petrarch, Hildegard von Bingham, Chaucer, Giotto…a level of art and thought was achieved, which has seldom been equalled.

      In more modern times, in Ireland the RCC provided education when the English authorities didn’t. I personally benefitted from the educational commitment of the RCC in England, where I was lucky to have the teaching of the Irish Christian Brothers, who had their limits, not to mention the vile Brother we called Quasimodo, but still educated us better than any other school in the area.

      Sometimes, when I hear Handel or Bach, or read something from the King James bible, I wish I could….but I can’t.

      You can set your mind at rest. Atheism is not a belief, much less a religion. Good people who do not believe sometimes get upset and angry when religious people seek to impose their values on us. No-one asks you to abandon your faith or moral code, and I wish that some of our colleagues would show restraint in dispute. But you cannot find any evidence that we foster hate or a danger to people of faith.

      • In reply to #11 by Kevin Murrell:

        In reply to #9 by TheWonderGoat:

        The Richard Dawkins religion is just as dangerous as any other religion as it also causes alot of hate towards religious people in general. so his set of beliefs are also very dangerous too.

        I can’t answer for Richard, although I would hope that he will find my com…

        Feeding the goat, Mr Murrell? ;-)

          • In reply to #29 by Ignorant Amos:

            In reply to #26 by godsbuster:

            Feeding the goat, Mr Murrell? ;-)

            Also guilty…and I think the goat has bolted before we got a chance to fence it into Quine’s petting zoo for trolls.

            Looks like it got quite a few of y’all’s goat. Nonetheless much preferable to some of the regular in-house goats we have here who manage to fly just below the goatar in part shielded by a moderating protocol which treats them as an endangered species.

          • In reply to #29 by Ignorant Amos:

            In reply to #26 by godsbuster:

            Feeding the goat, Mr Murrell? ;-)

            Also guilty…and I think the goat has bolted before we got a chance to fence it into Quine’s petting zoo for trolls.

            Oh, thanks for the reminder. I have not gone in and fed any of those trolls, for years. Wonder if there is anything left of them? ‘;-)

          • In reply to #45 by Quine:

            Oh, thanks for the reminder. I have not gone in and fed any of those trolls, for years. Wonder if there is anything left of them? ‘;-)

            Haa!…a wondered what the smell was…well that’s what ya get for pissing off to Strange Notions and other venues while neglecting the needy here…splitter }80)~

          • In reply to #50 by Ignorant Amos:

            …well that’s what ya get for pissing off to Strange Notions and other venues while neglecting the n…

            Ya-but much of that time was spent taking apart bogus things like the five misconceptions of Aquinas. The best-of from all that verbiage could be edited into a set of discussion threads, here, so that when we get one of these guy who does not know bogosity from Shinola, we would have a local link to supply some edumacation.

      • In reply to #11 by Kevin Murrell:

        I love the great cathedrals of Europe, I respect many of the things about Christianity, and spent a very peaceful hour last Sunday looking around Glenstall Abbey and chatting to one of the monks.

        How is this remotely relevant? Was your chat with the rabbi on Saturday or the Imam on Friday less peaceful?

    • In reply to #9 by TheWonderGoat:

      The Richard Dawkins religion is just as dangerous as any other religion

      Since when did science education and critical rational thinking become a religion? Atheism is a “religion” in the same sense that “off” is a TV channel!

      as it also causes alot of hate towards religious people in general.

      This is just ignorant assertion which is typified projected backwards thinking. Criticism of hate and antisocial dogmas is not hate of people, but dislike of reprehensible conduct based on dogmas. It was not atheists who attacked these people. It was fellow “believers” with a different brand of faith-thinking. Perhaps you should wonder a bit more about the effects of faith?

      so his set of beliefs are also very dangerous too.

      They are certainly a serious threat to ignorance, dishonesty, and bigotry, but I don’t think he has ever wrecked church buildings like these “true believers”!

    • In reply to #9 by TheWonderGoat:

      The Richard Dawkins religion is just as dangerous as any other religion as it also causes alot of hate towards religious people in general. so his set of beliefs are also very dangerous too.

      Would that be an assertion you could support? Some examples would be a starting point. Or is it just the blustering of an ignoramus? Perhaps you could give some individual beliefs from Richard Dawkins’ set? What is the Richard Dawkins belief you allude to? How is this set of beliefs dangerous?

      At least you have admitted that religions are dangerous and cause hate towards other religions, I’ll add, and hate towards their own religion too, just for good measure.

      Now that you’ve made this wild claim about Dawkins and his set of beliefs time to stump up.

      Got evidence?

    • In reply to #9 by TheWonderGoat:

      The Richard Dawkins religion is just as dangerous as any other religion as it also causes alot of hate towards religious people in general. so his set of beliefs are also very dangerous too.

      what on earth do you mean, “the richard dawkins religion”?

    • In reply to #9 by TheWonderGoat:

      The Richard Dawkins religion is just as dangerous as any other religion

      It has taken me some time to respond due to having to erase all the swear words but mate you are completely f******n’ batshit nuts!

      Really is it as dangerous as this one? http://tribune.com.pk/story/593466/cut-into-pieces-she-challenged-gods-orders/

      The ‘man’ responsible for this extraordinary piece of savagery was an IMAM! That’s right some one who is completely knowledgeable in the hermeneutics and epistemology of the Quran and who supposedly ‘educates’ others in the religion of peace! His wife disobeyed him and in doing so broke Allah’s rules to obey her husband so he cheerfully hacks her to bits. Here’s a prime example of a top hole religious loon, using one of the most hideous religions as an excuse for vile murder as an alternative to a rational discussion with someone who disagrees with him. That’s what a real religion can do for you! Praise be to Allah!

      Dawkins (as you call him) on the other hand doesn’t have a religion! Nothing he believes requires a blind faith in paradise or redemption or making the right propitiations in order to get there. In particular nothing that he believes involves the use of force, coercion, legal devices, torture or the threat of detention or murder to make anyone follow his ideas. Unlike the Abrahamic cults (and that includes xtians, jews and muslims in all their various guises plus a few loony cults which are xtianity with added stupidity) who have made a career of the last 2000 years taking it in turns perpetrating the vilest, cruelest tortures and anti human assaults on the rest of humanity.

      • In reply to #30 by Vorlund:

        Really is it as dangerous as this one? http://tribune.com….

        The story you link to about the Imam who cut his wife into little pieces was surely quite exceptional, right?

        The same newspaper/website, has a story from just 5 days earlier about a father who sold his daughter of 12 years old to a nephew for marriage. The daughter argued that she wished to stay on at school and go on to college. The mother was also against the early marriage.

        The father, enraged at this female disobedience, locked the mother in a room, then, in another room, murdered his daughter and cut her body into 6 pieces.

        There does seem to be a lot of this domestic violence going on. Or maybe it is being reported more.

    • In reply to #9 by TheWonderGoat:

      The Richard Dawkins religion is just as dangerous as any other religion as it also causes alot of hate towards religious people in general. so his set of beliefs are also very dangerous too.

      Dear Wonder Goat,

      I have yet to come across anyone from “Mr Richard Dawkins” religion to go around causing violence, rape, and murder to any one who is in denial of his views. It is in the name of that Sky daddy that the world troubles are the curse of so many violent actions. Religion is a curse of the masses.

  7. “I didn’t expect this to happen,” El Sayeh said.

    Nor me, the Muslim Brotherhood, after all, what are they? Surely they are the Egyptian equivalent of the Boy Scouts, no.

    Peace.

    • In reply to #12 by Stephen of Wimbledon:

      “I didn’t expect this to happen,” El Sayeh said.

      Nor me, the Muslim Brotherhood, after all, what are they? Surely they are the Egyptian equivalent of the Boy Scouts, no.

      Peace.

      The MB are the group that has been ousted from power; as far as I can tell by the alliance of the Military, “Liberals” and the Salafists. I need to look into the details more, but I’m busy at the moment.

  8. Islam is not just a religion, but a political system. For it to work properly, everyone must subscribe to the rules. In a country where there is a challenger for political authority, it is fanatical in gaining power. Just as with Christianity, democracy is a temporary truce, not something to be ultimately tolerated.

    The Qur’an, which was written when Islam was still a minor sect, specifies quite tolerant rules for dealing with other religions. There was a glorious period of tolerance and enlightenment in Moorish Spain. I we need to sell Islam on the notion that golden age was caused by tolerance.

  9. I said it in 2011, when they got rid of one dictator, President Hosni Mubarak, they were simply going to replace it with another, Islam. Egypt will go nowhere so long as so many believe such shit.

  10. In reply to #23 by Ignorant Amos:

    In reply to #18 by Katy Cordeth:

    In reply to #16 by Ignorant Amos:

    Although my friends pay their taxes.

    Uhh? I’m intrigued, please elaborate?

    You said Google was my friend. That’s what I was referring to when I said my friends pay their taxes. @

  11. I recall from news that mosques as well as churches being wrecked by the lawless mobs in Egypt recently… its not exclusively Christians being attacked ! Although Democracy and Islam just seem to still be on opposite ends of the spectrum… fairness even towards their own women is not something Islamic countries are known for…so democracy – is their own special male corrupt idea of it….which is still not democratic !

  12. Having failed to learn lessons from history, various people have fermented revolution and brought down hardline governments which kept these uncivilised mobs in order. Wishful thinking about democracy is no substitute for a functioning legal system and police force.
    Even a bad government is usually better for most people than the chaos of armed gangs bringing conflict and civil war!

  13. On the subject of the disappearances of Coptic girls, there is confused and contradictory information, as with a lot of things in Egypt. From the link given above.

    Ishaak Ibrahim, a religious rights researcher at the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights (EIPR), says inter-faith love affairs and conversions are dangerously provocative issues in Egypt. Rumours of such have led to outbreaks of sectarian violence.
    He says many of the alleged abductions involve young Christian girls who appear to have converted to Islam to escape bad relations with their families, or after having engaged in pre-marital relations (taboo in conservative Egyptian culture) with Muslim men.
    “The girls appear to have chosen to change their religion,” Ibrahim told IPS. “But because the family is ashamed, and because the police don’t investigate to find their daughter, the family chooses the easiest solution, which is to say the girl was kidnapped by Muslim extremists.”

  14. In reply to #42 by DonaldMiller:

    This call to encourage religious persecution…

    This reminds me of the story about the boy who cried “wolf”.

    Could you please define the term “persecution” and explain what you think “being persecuted” means?

  15. In reply to #42 by DonaldMiller:

    On 24 March 2012 at 2:55 PM, Richard Dawkins propagated militant atheism at the “Reason Rally” [sic], encouraging his audience to “Mock them [believers], ridicule them in public.”

    As we have seen so often, you present a short clip taken out of context and edited to misrepresent (just as the speech was heavily misquoted in the media). I was in the audience, that day, and the whole speech by Richard Dawkins is here, unedited, in this video. He specifically states that we should respect religious people even when we stand up and ridicule their unsupported beliefs. The two seconds about what we should “mock” at the very end, are specifically about the doctrine of transubstantiation, not about any kind of general “persecution.” There is no “religion” of Richard Dawkins, no call to do anything bad to anyone, simply a call to stand up and publicly ridicule the ridiculous beliefs that stand in the path of reason. Watch the whole speech. Learn something.

    • In reply to #44 by Quine:

      As we have seen so often, you present a short clip taken out of context and edited to misrepresent (just as the speech was heavily misquoted in the media). I was in the audience, that day, and the whole speech by Richard Dawkins is here, unedited, in this video. He specifically states that we should respect religious people even when we stand up and ridicule their unsupported beliefs. The two seconds about what we should “mock” at the very end, are specifically about the doctrine of transubstantiation, not about any kind of general “persecution.” There is no “religion” of Richard Dawkins, no call to do anything bad to anyone, simply a call to stand up and publicly ridicule the ridiculous beliefs that stand in the path of reason. Watch the whole speech. Learn something.

      But, but, but, but, why let the truth get in the way of those honestly lying for Jesus? Pointing out the facts Quine is “a bloody damn poor show sir” and your running the Dawkins religion FECKIN’ BOLLOCKS..spoil sport.

  16. In reply to #42 by DonaldMiller:

    In reply to #15 by Ignorant Amos:

    “Mock them [believers], ridicule them in public.”

    Oh dear it’s nearly as bad as the Inquisition when witches and heretics were mocked and ridiculed all over Europe.

    Michael

  17. In reply to #33 by Katy Cordeth:

    In reply to #23 by Ignorant Amos:

    In reply to #18 by Katy Cordeth:

    In reply to #16 by Ignorant Amos:

    Although my friends pay their taxes.

    Uhh? I’m intrigued, please elaborate?

    You said Google was my friend. That’s what I was referring to when I said my friends pay their taxes. @

    Ah ha…..yes I get it now. Very good..even if a bit drool.

    [Off-topic addition removed by moderator in order to avoid derailing thread into chitchat.]

    • In reply to #47 by Ignorant Amos:

      In reply to #33 by Katy Cordeth:

      In reply to #23 by Ignorant Amos:

      In reply to #18 by Katy Cordeth:

      In reply to #16 by Ignorant Amos:

      Although my friends pay their taxes.

      Uhh? I’m intrigued, please elaborate?

      You said Google was my friend. That’s what I was referring to when I said my friends…

      Just where IS the chit-chat thread?

  18. In reply to #42 by DonaldMiller:

    On 24 March 2012 at 2:55 PM, Richard Dawkins propagated militant atheism at the “Reason Rally” [sic], encouraging his audience to “Mock them [believers], ridicule them in public.” Video of him doing this is at– http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPqqp8KVuQU

    And your point is what exactly? I ridicule and mock religion at every opportunity…it deserves it. Be careful, if you hold to the same religious nonsense too, you might be subject to a bit of ridicule and mockery.

    This call to encourage religious persecution was heavily criticized in the media, specifically by: USA Today (http://usat.ly/GV1dMZ, http://usat.ly/QrC1kG), CP (http://bit.ly/H3gNsp), World Mag (http://bit.ly/Hh9sat), and Gateway News (http://bit.ly/H6v7i2).

    Your USA Today address is broken. The other three are Christian rags, so not a bit biased then? Who gives a flying fig about their lovey dovey, keep them in the dark and feed them on shite approach anyway? Who was it that you reckon was getting persecuted and by whom? Do you even have a clue what the term religious persecution means? It’s ironic to me that an adherent to Catholicism, you are a Catholic, right? I know you claim to be atheist, but talk is cheap and your comment history infers otherwise. Who else would have the bare faced check to pitch up, show his face, and accuse anyone of persecution when the whole edifice that is the RCC, or indeed, religions in general, were built on persecution.

    Do yourself a favour and research before bandying about words like persecution will ya? Taking the pish out of nonsense beliefs at a rally is in no way persecution…burning folk at the stake is a different matter entirely though.

    If you want to line religions strongest ducks up in a row and think they’ll withstand my marksmanship, fell free, but don’t come along here gurning about how the nasty atheists have hurt your feelings with some ridicule and mockery…a universe creating, all powerful , omniscient, omnipotent, god should be up to a bit of pish taking, even if its feeble followers are not.

    If you are indeed an honest non-believer…you are an enigma…I’m calling Poe all the same.

    Now, can ya give my head peace with your bullshit, Donald?

  19. In reply to #53 by DonaldMiller:

    Hitchens had a favorable opinion of Aquinas. He called him “a serious thinker.” If you’re not willing to grant an important historical figure the benefit of taking into account their time and place then you can dismiss most folks, like Ptolemy.

    Ptolemy did some good work for his time, but as with all science up-dates, his geocentric model has been dismissed – after holding back progress for centuries – with the help of the RCC!

    That’s how rational evidenced science works. Unlike theology, it dumps failed ideas once they are refuted!

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/482079/Ptolemaic-system

    Ptolemy’s model explained this “imperfection” by postulating that the apparently irregular movements were a combination of several regular circular motions seen in perspective from a stationary Earth. The principles of this model were known to earlier Greek scientists, including the mathematician Hipparchus (c. 150 bc), but they culminated in an accurate predictive model with Ptolemy. The resulting Ptolemaic system persisted, with minor adjustments, until the Earth was displaced from the centre of the universe in the 16th and 17th centuries by the Copernican system and by Kepler’s laws of planetary motion.

    Aquinas similarly had flawed and fallacious ideas:-

    http://patas.co/articles/opinion/refuting-the-five-ways-of-aquinas/

  20. In reply to #52 by DonaldMiller:
    “Gee, this is a rough crowd. I suppose it has to do with “militant atheism,” but I’ve been on several atheist sites before, and the folks were just as nice as can be.”

    Hello again Donald,

    This is the RDF for Reason and Science, not an atheist website – your presuppositions are showing – where claims, assertions and sloppy thinking are rationally questioned, by many very competent Users.

    You have made some Comments which have been questioned by several Members, but you don’t seem to be answering any, just making more comments and complaints about disrespect.

    Your ‘evidence’ is poor, and your ‘intuition’ is as unreliable as intuition is known to be, so as a self-proclaimed atheist, use your rational brain to think clearly and overcome your ‘belief in belief’ and ‘faith-thinking’ before making more errors here, then we will assess your input more positively….

    BanJolvie has now responded to your dissing of him, in the July 20 Discussion where I first replied to you and warned you to be careful about your comment wording. It seems that you didn’t heed that friendly warning, since you have made other sloppily worded, biased assertions since, and RDF members have called you on specifics, without you answering them.

    You moan about this being a rough crowd, but that’s what makes this the best Forum around, and the best place to learn about important issues – including our own rationality, education, competence and biases.

    The reason atheism comes up so much at RDFRS is that whatever problems come up around the world religion, indoctrination and faith-thinking are inevitably in there somewhere causing trouble.

    Religion and science are incompatible, and as science discovers more truths about the universe, religion is forced to retreat and re-muddle its god delusions to keep its mind-slaves in line – which it’s fortunately failing to do more and more often, and humanity is gradually becoming more free-thinking, rational and capable of working towards a viable future on our sickly pale blue dot….

    I’m waiting for your answers to my previous questions…. 8-) Mac.

    • In reply to #55 by CdnMacAtheist:

      In reply to #52 by DonaldMiller:
      “Gee, this is a rough crowd. I suppose it has to do with “militant atheism,” but I’ve been on several atheist sites before, and the folks were just as nice as can be.”

      Hello again Donald,

      This is the RDF for Reason and Science, not an atheist website – your presupp…

      The last comment I made on here, before my membership was briefly suspended was a reply to your comment about the new site’s limitations. I see that both your comment and mine have been removed and an announcement by a moderator placed there instead. In short, I have been warned not to mention the old site on a post that does not pertain to it. I will however point out to you that I really have no easy way of finding these questions that you are insisting I answer. If you send them to me again, I’ll fill out whatever form you need.

      Honestly, you seem to be the only one here who has a serious problem with me. With the others, it’s just been minor awkwardnesses in breaking the ice type stuff. I’ve looked over the comments that have come my way this evening, and I seem to be getting along with the other members well enough. They seem to like me.

  21. In reply to #52 by DonaldMiller:

    Gee, this is a rough crowd. I suppose it has to do with “militant atheism,” but I’ve been on several atheist sites before, and the folks were just as nice as can be.

    There ya go talking rubbish again…WTF is a “militant atheist” anyway? If you are going to post rubbish, you will invariably get called out on it. Like using the word persecution incorrectly then thinking it is fine because it is the same as harassed.

    As far as Catholicism goes, I don’t know a great deal about it: a few historical facts come to mind, like “Kill them all, let God sort them out.” is a close paraphrase of an order a Catholic (General) gave.

    It was the massacre at Béziers and an it was abbot that is alleged to have said it, not a general,…so your historical “fact” is not a “fact” at all.

    I know that in general I don’t really like them, especially a guy like that Donahue character — the Catholic League, I believe. What a nasty piece of work. But then again I think Madeline Murray O’hair was a POS, so . . .

    Generalizations haven’t much place around here. Disliking all Catholics because of their religion or the actions of some, is irrational.

    Dawkins says that he’s a kind “gentle man”.

    When did he say that? Citation please.

    If he’s going to make that assertion about himself, he ought to abide by it,don’t you think?

    Can’t a body be kind and gentle and still ridicule the ridiculous?

    He sounded like one of those Islamic clerics to me. I only saw that video recently, and I was really shocked by it.

    Oh please…stop with the rubbish already.

    As far as the details that I placed with that video is concerned, I added that from the Info section of it.

    That was a bit asinine of you then wasn’t it?

    I didn’t know it was an assignment that I’d be graded on.

    It wasn’t, but if you are going to be stupid and misrepresent something, you leaving yourself open to getting a new one tore. Quine, who was actually at the rally, explained to you that the video you linked was propaganda and made without context. A bit like the text you were daft enough to copy.

    Look it, the main reason religious folks annoy me is that most of them think their “club” is superior to everyone else’s and their Shinola doesn’t stink. I’m getting the same vibes here, about your “club.”

    There is no “club” here…I regularly disagree with other members here on a number of issues while agreeing on lots of others…just ask Roedy, Aldous, Katy Cordeth, Phil Rimmer and a host of others. I too will get strips tore of me for talking rubbish or posting lies or crap and rightly so.

    I like learning new things.

    Well then, learn from your errors and stop whinging about getting pulled for posting rubbish.

    That’s why I chose the avatar I have. Not really because of Pink Floyd, but the symbolism of when an epiphany happens or when one suddenly realizes that they’ve learned a new concept and the shattering of ignorance is lost.

    That’s all very nice…try some application now.

  22. In reply to #53 by DonaldMiller:

    Hitchens had a favorable opinion of Aquinas.

    Did he? Are you sure? I know he said Aquinas was a man of one book, from Hitchens I doubt that was meant as a compliment.

    He called him “a serious thinker.”

    Aquinas might have thought seriously, but what can one say about a lot of those thoughts? They were theological nonsense.

    If you’re not willing to grant an important historical figure the benefit of taking into account their time and place then you can dismiss most folks, like Ptolemy.

    Your doing it again. It doesn’t matter a jot if Aquinas was an important historical figure regardless of time or place…so was Joseph Stalin…Aquinas’ five ways are wrong and Stalin’s ideology was also wrong

  23. In reply to #61 by Smill:

    In reply to post 58. That particular Abbot was the General.

    Arnaud Amaury was the abbot and papal legate in charge of the military at Béziers, but did he hold the rank of general? I can find no reference he did.

  24. In reply to #63 by Smill:

    In reply to post 61. Oh, I see. You intend to split hairs about whether medieval Abbots that led military crusades were actually titled ‘General’?

    I’m just replying to your point…if he was an abbot in charge then he was an abbot in charge..its that simple. If you want to call me out on it, than expect to be challenged…prove me wrong with some evidence then I will concede the point and apologise for my error…that’s how the thing works.

  25. In reply to #53 by DonaldMiller:

    Hitchens had a favorable opinion of Aquinas. He called him “a serious thinker.” If you’re not willing to grant an important historical figure the benefit of taking into account their time and place then you can dismiss most folks, like Ptolemy.

    I don’t see anyone doubting that Aquinas was a great thinker for his “time and place”. The reference was to a Catholic website called Strange Notions where many regard Aquinas as the last word on philosophy who is unlimited by his “time and place”. Check out the website and you’ll see what people were getting at.

    Michael

  26. In reply to #78 by DonaldMiller:

    Sorry to break it to you, Michael, but it was your material. Did get a big kick out of that…

    So you’re going to side with my kids and call my jokes lame? Actually it wasn’t meant to be so much funny as a sarcastic remark on the difference between ridicule and persecution.

    Dave Allen was brilliant. His timing and his use of facial expression was brilliant. This one is about his first day at school.

    Michael

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