Apostasy Laws, Sex Segregation and Islamist Double-Speak

36

Hello

APOSTATES IN ISLAM REPORT
The Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (CEMB) and Atheist Alliance International have published a new report on the Political and Legal Status of Apostates in Islam with the support of The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science UK. The report examines sources for laws that prohibit apostasy from Islam, reviews legislation and government policies in various countries that persecute apostates and blasphemers, and highlights the cases of some of the many persecuted individuals, with a focus on atheists, secularists and freethinkers. You can read the report here.

AGAINST SEGREGATION OF THE SEXES
CEMB has joined others in condemning the endorsement of gender apartheid by Universities UK in British universities. Any form of segregation, whether by race, sex or otherwise is discriminatory. Separate is never equal and segregation is never applied to those who are considered equal. By justifying segregation, Universities UK sides with Islamist values at the expense of the many Muslims and others who oppose sex apartheid and demand equality between women and men. Please sign the petition, and find out how to join the sex apartheid busters and protest at UUK offices on 10 December here.

UPDATE ON NAHLA MAHMOUD AND LIB DEMS SCANDAL
CEMB is appalled that the Cambridgeshire Lib Dems has decided to side with their member and former councillor Salah al Bandar rather than CEMB Spokesperson, Nahla Mahmoud, who he has threatened. The head of the Cambridgeshire Lib Dems has stated that the matter is closed after commissioning an “independent translation,” which has not been made available to the public. Terms like Kafir(a), Murtad(a) and Fitnah are only ever derogatory and threatening and must be seen as such. Clearly, the group is the latest victims of Islamist double-speak. Whilst the matter may be closed for them, it is certainly not for CEMB. We will be commissioning our own independent translation, which will be made available to the public. More details can be found here.

EX-MUSLIM GROUPS
A number of ex-Muslim groups have recently formed and affiliated with the CEMB, including Ex-Muslims of North America (EXMNA), Ex-Muslims of Austria and Ex-Muslims of Scotland. EXMNA writes: “While we denounce the bigotry of those who promote their racist and xenophobic ideas under the guise of criticizing Islam, we also denounce the cultural and moral relativism of those who propagate the idea that all criticism of Islam is inherently racist. We work closely with the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (CEMB), a UK-based, internationally recognized organization, founded in 2007, that has been instrumental in starting the movement to create a space for apostates. Ex-Muslims often have first-hand and well-researched knowledge about Islam’s various facets. We are uniquely positioned to use our voices and experiences to help bridge the polarized discussion of Islam. In order to further that goal, we have just launched the Ex-Muslim Blogs Project which broadcasts the voices of a diverse array of Ex-Muslim writers.”

WHY WE BELIEVE IN GODS
Andy Thomson, author of the groundbreaking book, “Why We Believe in Gods”, is making the Urdu translation of the book available free of charge here. Print copies of the book will also be available for purchase via the CEMB with proceeds going to our organisation.

JOIN AND SUPPORT US
If you haven’t already done so, join our forum where you can meet thousands of like-minded individuals, create a network for yourself, and participate in discussions ranging from politics to safety, parenting and health. Help us to continue our important work: become a member; volunteer your skills; ‘Like’ our Facebook page; follow our Twitter account @CEMB_forum; join our events; and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Please donate if you can. No amount is too small and every bit helps.

The issue of apostasy without a focus on Islam and Islamism is irrelevant in this era as it is only apostates from Islam who are killed due to Islamism’s access and influence. The CEMB is an important challenge to this regressive movement. Support us.

Warm Wishes
Maryam Namazie
Nahla Mahmoud
Spokespersons
Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain
BM Box 1919, London WC1N 3XX, UK
tel: +44 (0) 7719166731
email: exmuslimcouncil@gmail.com
web: http://ex-muslim.org.uk/

Company limited by guarantee and registered in England and Wales under company number 8059509.

Written By: Maryam Namazie
continue to source article at

36 COMMENTS

  1. Please keep up the good work in defence and support of Nahla Mahmoud. She deserves protection from those who would issue veiled death threats against her for speaking out against sharia law.

  2. “While we denounce the bigotry of those who promote their racist and xenophobic ideas under the guise of criticizing Islam, we also denounce the cultural and moral relativism of those who propagate the idea that all criticism of Islam is inherently racist.

    This is really a fantastic statement. I couldn’t have said it better. I admire all of these ex-Muslims for their bravery. Thanks to the RD Foundation for throwing support over to them. It’s money well spent. There doesn’t seem to be a chapter of ex-Muslims here in Boston but I would be happy to volunteer if one is ever formed, even though I’m actually an ex-Methodist. :-)

  3. There’s votes in them thar’ hills me dears!

    Short term opportunism seems to be the order of the day among our tenth rate politicians at present, and the unelected political wings of the various religious denominations know as much and take full advantage of the fact, but the long term consequences of such shortsightedness on the part of our elected representatives could be dire indeed.

    We in the mature liberal democracies stand to lose a great deal, whilst those who oppose democracy and our hard won freedoms have everything to gain.

    Although we are fortunate enough to have a robust and flexible cultural infrastructure, it didn’t come about by magic and we must never take it for granted, especially in light of what happened in Germany in the 1930s.

  4. Just want to say the term gender apartheid is far more appropriate than segregation. It should be used wherever possible. Additionally, anyone who calls for, supports or is an apologist for segregation should be called, loudly and publicly, a supporter of apartheid. It might cause a few of our weak kneed politicians or excuses for journalists pause for thought.

  5. laws that prohibit apostasy from Islam
    gender apartheid

    Where are these apostasy laws in force?
    Just where is gender apartheid in force?

    The article suggests Britain, but surely that cannot be correct.

    • In reply to #7 by Roedy:

      laws that prohibit apostasy from Islam
      gender apartheid

      Where are these apostasy laws in force?
      Just where is gender apartheid in force?

      The article suggests Britain, but surely that cannot be correct.

      Yes, in Britain. Not “enforced”, but Universities UK, an organization representing senior management across the university sector in the UK, has just issued a statement condoning it, and the petition is to protest against that and get them to rescind their approval. The petition is at [https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Universities_UK_Rescind_endorsement_of_sex_segregation_at_UK_Universities] and deserves the support of everyone here. Sorry, I can’t seem to make that a link. Please copy and paste!

  6. i agree with all that but why on earth is there a need to rewrite stock phrases such as men and women, as women and men? or GLBT as LGBT and so on? if it is important, is it that important given all the other, more serious issues about gender? i see this a more pc creep.

  7. “While we denounce the bigotry of those who promote their racist and xenophobic ideas under the guise of criticizing Islam”
    Islam isn’t a race. Muslims aren’t a race. Just leave “race” out of it. People are going to say what they think anyway. I’m going to say what I think anyway.

  8. In reply to #7 by Roedy: It has been attempted a number of times at university talks and has been done recently … in the UK. They’re not laws, but it is knuckling under to sharia. Whether it’s done by law or cowardice, it’s still the same.

    laws that prohibit apostasy from Islam
    gender apartheid

    Where are these apostasy laws in force?
    Just where is gender apartheid in force?

    The article suggests Britain, but surely that cannot be correct.

  9. CEMB is appalled that the Cambridgeshire Lib Dems has decided to side with their member and former councillor Salah al Bandar rather than CEMB Spokesperson, Nahla Mahmoud, who he has threatened. The head of the Cambridgeshire Lib Dems has stated that the matter is closed after commissioning an “independent translation,” which has not been made available to the public. Terms like Kafir(a), Murtad(a) and Fitnah are only ever derogatory and threatening and must be seen as such…

    …More details can be found here [and here and here].

    It’s a matter of opinion whether the terms mentioned could be construed as threatening. Derogatory, certainly. But threatening? This seems like much ado about nothing; or worse, an attempt to inflate a few personal insults to the level of death threat to further the goals of a political organisation.

    And Maryam Namazie has the temerity to accuse others of manipulating language for their own ends.

    From Update on the threat against Nahla Mahmoud:

    Kafir(a) and Murtad(a) are well known derogatory terms meaning infidel and apostate; moreover, fitnah is another derogatory term against disobedient women who are seen to be the source of chaos or affliction in society. Given that apostasy is punishable by death in ten countries including Sudan, and a prosecutable offence in many more, the terms can hardly be considered positive and open to distortion.

    Because apostasy is a capital crime in Islam, Maryam seems to be suggesting that calling someone an apostate is tantamount to an incitement to violence or even murder. Is that all the proof there is that Nahla Mahmoud’s life was threatened by Salah al Bandar?!

    It’s despicable to traduce someone and imply they threatened violence when there’s no evidence they did any such thing. Playing the victim card when no state of victimhood exists makes a laughing stock out of what should be a serious advocacy group for atheist- and ex-Muslims, and insults genuine victims of Islamist persecution.

    It’s baffling to me why RDFRS continues to give this person a platform for her idiocy.

    • In reply to #14 by Katy Cordeth:

      It’s baffling to me why RDFRS continues to give this person a platform for her idiocy

      Oh is it? Let me get this straight. Most of us here, including Prof Dawkins would agree with Maryam Namazie on pretty much everything she says about religion. And it baffles you that she finds a support at RDFRS?

      Most of us don’t agree with you say, but we wouldn’t dream of not giving you a chance to voice them. Could you please return us the favor?

    • In reply to #14 by Katy Cordeth:

      It’s a matter of opinion whether the terms mentioned could be construed as threatening. Derogatory, certainly. But threatening? This seems like much ado about nothing; or worse, an attempt to inflate a few personal insults to the level of death threat to further the goals of a political organisation.

      And what is wrong with her claim? Do you by any chance live in a country where most people understand what “Kaffir” means? Or its social connotation? Or what it means to be called one?

      Consider this situation, we are about to have a debate on race equality and invite white nationalists to the debate. And every chance, the white nationalist chooses to use the words nigger or kyke or paki. Would you not expect a retort?

      Here is a excerpt from a popular website,

      A WORD OF CAUTION TO THE KAFIR HINDU

      Not knowing the make-up of the mind of a practicing Moslem, these Hindus forget the fact that in Islam, anything that had existed before the acceptance of the prophet’s faith is considered the remnant of the Dark Age or ‘jahiliya’. For a converted Moslem or a Moslem whose ancestors were converted several generations ago, his ancient Hindu roots are not a subject of pride. He feels insulted when a Hindu tries to equate him with his pre-lslamic ancestors, and thereby derives some sort of a satisfaction by implying that they, the Moslem and the Hindu, are more or less of the same category in the context of the nation at large. The Hindu does not realize that the Hindu heritage of India is a shameful thing to his Moslem compatriot. It always has been and is going to be that way as long as the Koran’s injunctions are obeyed by the faithful.

      And more…

      It is practically impossible for the two communities to mix and mingle as normal people do. The Moslems keep their women away f ram other males while a Hindu, a Sikh or a Christian attends social gatherings together with their womenfolk. You never find a ‘true’ non-Moslem friend for a practicing Moslem. And this is true for any country, where people of different faiths live together. The Koran’s injunctions are quite clear on the subject. It forbids a Moslem to make friends with the infidels. That they belong to the same country is not so important. For a Moslem of India, a Saudi Moslem who is an alien in the common international parlance, is nearer to him than the Hindu or Christian who lives next door.

      I have no problem with anyone calling me a kaffir or anything for that matter. Unlike you, we have lived in third world societies and we have witnessed first hand what blind faith, strict adherence to traditions and backward cultures are capable of. We would be deeply grateful if people like you would stop defending the very people we are trying to have a debate with. We would like to hold them accountable for these views. And Maryam does that eloquently and passionately. If only you would just let us (non-whites) be treated equally and understand that we are capable of public discourse, rational arguments and social progress we would be grateful. We do not need your phony protection, kid gloves and two-faced attitude (us/them), we could all get to things that matter – you know rampant poverty, climate change and nuclear proliferation.

      • Well said! In reply to #23 by soulreaver:

        In reply to #14 by Katy Cordeth:

        It’s a matter of opinion whether the terms mentioned could be construed as threatening. Derogatory, certainly. But threatening? This seems like much ado about nothing; or worse, an attempt to inflate a few personal insults to the level of death threat to further the…

  10. “While we denounce the bigotry of those who promote their racist and xenophobic ideas under the guise of criticizing Islam, we also denounce the cultural and moral relativism of those who propagate the idea that all criticism of Islam is inherently racist.

    I would denounce that too, if I was aware of anyone who did it.

    Examples, please.

  11. Katy Cordeth: “Because apostasy is a capital crime in Islam, Maryam seems to be suggesting that calling someone an apostate is tantamount to an incitement to violence or even murder. Is that all the proof there is that Nahla Mahmoud’s life was threatened by Salah al Bandar?!”

    Why is this so hard for you to believe? There are Islamic crazies who murdered a British soldier in broad daylight on a public street, who murdered a Dutch film director in broad daylight on a public street, and who invaded a home in Denmark and tried to hack down a door with an ax in an attempt to commit murder. Why can’t you see that calling someone an apostate might just encourage such a crazy to murder the apostate?

    Katy Cordeth: “we also denounce the cultural and moral relativism of those who propagate the idea that all criticism of Islam is inherently racist.”

    I would denounce that too, if I was aware of anyone who did it. Examples, please.”

    Nathan Lean

    • In reply to #17 by prietenul:

      Why is this so hard for you to believe? There are Islamic crazies who murdered a British soldier in broad daylight on a public street, who murdered a Dutch film director in broad daylight on a public street, and who invaded a home in Denmark and tried to hack down a door with an ax in an attempt to commit murder. Why can’t you see that calling someone an apostate might just encourage such a crazy to murder the apostate?

      I don’t find it hard to believe that there are Islamist crazies out there who will if persuaded murder innocent people. What I object to is those who would exploit this sort of thing for their own ends.

      Calling someone an apostate might well be enough for some Muslim nutbag to strap on the semtex and go a murderin’. But that is not the same as inciting violence.

      I would denounce that too, if I was aware of anyone who did it. Examples, please.”

      Nathan Lean

      Is that it? I actually thought for a second you were signing off and that was your real name, prietenul.

      Could you perhaps be a tad more specific. I mean, if you could direct me to an article by Nathan Lean in which he suggested all criticism of Islam was inherently racist, that’d be super.

      The idiocy remark was perhaps out of line. As soulreaver says in comment #18, Maryam Namazie speaks for most people here, including Richard, so I should have been more respectful. Sorry.

      • In reply to #20 by me:

        I mean, if you could direct me to an article by Nathan Lean in which he suggested all criticism of Islam was inherently racist, that’d be super.

        Or by anyone else, of course. I’m just itchin’ to be proved wrong.

  12. The call by Professor Tariq Ramadan for a moratorium on the death penalty for Islamic offences, makes various interesting points. The present position of most Islamic legal scholars, he contends, is that the death penalty is almost never applicable in practice, even when it is required in principle.

    The majority of the ulamâ’, historically and today, are of the opinion that these penalties are on the whole Islamic but that the conditions under which they should be implemented are nearly impossible to reestablish. These penalties, therefore, are “almost never applicable”. The hudûd would, therefore, serve as a “deterrent”,
    the objective of which would be to stir the conscience of the believer to the gravity of an action warranting such a punishment.

  13. Nathan Lean says that Islamophobia is a form of racism. What those of the ‘there is no such thing as Islamophobia’ persuasion are unable to admit is that not all anti-Islam remarks are considered Islamophobic, any more than all anti-Zionist remarks are anti-Semitic.

    Islamophobia is undeniably a form of racism. Though it doesn’t operate on overtly biological prejudices, it does divide the world between “superior” and “inferior” cultures, the latter of which are marginalized not only because of their ethnic background (cue up the Arab terrorist jokes, for example) but also because of their belief system. It attributes to the whole community the negative traits of a minority few. And while it’s considered shameful today to prejudice African Americans or Jews, Muslims are always safe targets.

  14. The idea that making innocuous acts subject to the death penalty is a ‘deterrent’ and not put into practice, is not convincing. It’s not going to deter if there are no serious consequences up to, and including, death. Imprisonment, ostracism, loss of livelihood, insults, abuse, financial ruin are likely consequences in an Islamic society of a trivial, even a praiseworthy, act of blasphemy. That’s appalling enough and death is not ruled out.

  15. In reply to #23 by soulreaver:

    In reply to #14 by Katy Cordeth:

    It’s a matter of opinion whether the terms mentioned could be construed as threatening. Derogatory, certainly. But threatening? This seems like much ado about nothing; or worse, an attempt to inflate a few personal insults to the level of death threat to further the goals of a political organisation.

    And what is wrong with her claim? Do you by any chance live in a country where most people understand what “Kaffir” means? Or its social connotation? Or what it means to be called one?

    I live in the US and the UK. I think since 9/11 most people in these places are aware of what kaffir means. I’m sure you’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but Nahla Mahmoud also lives in Britain. I’m not really sure what other countries’ conventions or attitudes have to do with her own situation. She comes under the aegis of British law with all the protection that affords.

    Consider this situation, we are about to have a debate on race equality and invite white nationalists to the debate. And every chance, the white nationalist chooses to use the words nigger or kyke or paki. Would you not expect a retort?

    I certainly would. If any retort included the suggestion that these epithets constituted a specific death threat, that would set my antennae twitching. Is all hate speech to be considered incitement to murder now? I thought most people on this site disapproved of the evil that is political correctness and its efforts to censor language.

    I have no problem with anyone calling me a kaffir or anything for that matter.

    You mean you don’t consider it a direct threat against your personal safety? You brush it off as mere words which don’t require anyone to be brought to account? Tell me then, do you believe Salah al Bandar’s remarks are actionable? The police don’t think so. The Cambridgeshire Liberal Democrats had this to say:

    “None of the independent translations supports the allegations made in Nahla Mahmoud’s articles of 2 August 2013, 2 September 2013, 4 September 2013, and 28 September 2013. By a combination of of mistranslation, omission of key phrases, and highly selective and partial quotation, she has created serious distortions of the meaning of Dr Al Bander’s posts.”

    Irrespective of that, should Salah al Bandar in your opinion be prosecuted for incitement to violence?

    Unlike you, we have lived in third world societies and we have witnessed first hand what blind faith, strict adherence to traditions and backward cultures are capable of.

    Well, first of all, you don’t know where I’ve lived; please don’t presume you do. Secondly, you speak for yourself on this site, soulreaver, no one else.

    We would be deeply grateful if people like you would stop defending the very people we are trying to have a debate with.

    Are those you are trying to have a debate with not entitled to a defense? They tend not to come to this site as you may have noticed. Is there something inherently bad in someone’s defending them in absentia? What are you so afraid you’ll hear?

    We would like to hold them accountable for these views.

    That’s an interesting one. I tend to think people should be able to hold any views they darn well want. You can be as racist, sexist, homophobic as you like as far as I’m concerned. That’s your right as a human being. It’s how you act on these views that matters. One of my favorite quotations: “The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins.”

    And Maryam does that eloquently and passionately.

    You left out dishonestly.

    If only you would just let us (non-whites) be treated equally and understand that we are capable of public discourse, rational arguments and social progress we would be grateful. We do not need your phony protection, kid gloves and two-faced attitude (us/them), we could all get to things that matter – you know rampant poverty, climate change and nuclear proliferation.

    Jesus, and I’m accused of creating straw men.

    • In reply to #26 by Katy Cordeth:

      In reply to #23 by soulreaver:

      In reply to #14 by Katy Cordeth:

      It’s a matter of opinion whether the terms mentioned could be construed as threatening. Derogatory, certainly. But threatening? This seems like much ado about nothing; or worse, an attempt to inflate a few personal insults to the leve…

      I give up! I really can’t be bothered any more. If you think anyone who demands equal rights and responsibilities from their fellow human beings is wrong to do so, I do not want to debate any further. You need to at least concede that point – would you not agree, regardless of ones gender, regardless of ones race, regardless of ones sexuality and regardless of ones age, they deserve the same dignity and respect. Any culture, any religion, any tradition argues otherwise deserves no respect. How difficult is that for you to understand? I consider the hindu nationalist, the white nationalist or the islamic fundamentalist as one and the same. They are misguided morons.

      Tell me then, do you believe Salah al Bandar’s remarks are actionable?

      That is your objection? Really! And for that she is dishonest! Are you barking mad? Even if I agree with you on the premise that Maryam wants such hate speeches have to be prosecuted under law, it is a far cry from what those who oppose her suggest.

      Of all the people you can defend, the countless children lost to hunger and poverty, the countless lives lost to bronze age mythology, countless women living across globe as second class citizens you chose to argue for the rights of religious nutbags. Shame on you!

      • In reply to #28 by soulreaver:

        In reply to #26 by Katy Cordeth:

        Of all the people you can defend, the countless children lost to hunger and poverty, the countless lives lost to bronze age mythology, countless women living across globe as second class citizens you chose to argue for the rights of religious nutbags. Shame on you!

        Perhaps this discussion clarifies some of the issues further:-

        http://www.richarddawkins.net/news-articles/2013/11/29/afghanistan-considers-return-of-stoning-for-adulterers#
        “The Islamic Sharia instructs us to do so … There is a verse in the Quran about it.”

        • In reply to #31 by Alan4discussion:

          Perhaps this discussion clarifies some of the issues further

          What it doesn’t clarify is why religious people think we should be bound by the laws and moral attitudes of the Founder’s time. Surely what matters is the spiritual message, whatever it is. The details of our earthly lives can be adapted to the changes in society that have occurred over many centuries. It has been possible to ‘reinterpret’ the sacred texts so that Christians (not all of them) can now embrace homosexuality without feeling that their mortal souls are endangered. What’s stopping Muslims from evolving?

          • In reply to #33 by aldous:

            In reply to #31 by Alan4discussion:

            What’s stopping Muslims from evolving?

            Are you suggesting that Muslims are unevolved?
            Aldous, you yourself had just made quite an inflammatory insinuation and it was addressed towards a whole mass of individuals, purely based on a common identity they hold! You yourself are now guilty of categorizing a mass of individuals as being of one group. Am I wrong?
            No, I don’t actually think it was racist of you.

            But I would have used much better words to make the question, and asked, “What’s stopping Muslims from changing their minds?” instead.
            And the answer is, the quran and the hadiths are what’s holding them back!
            However, the term Muslim becomes redundant in the absence of the Quran and the Hadiths.

            Muslim

            1. also Mos·lem (mzlm, ms-) A believer in or adherent of Islam.
            2. A member of the Nation of Islam; a Black Muslim.
      • In reply to #28 by soulreaver:

        In reply to #26 by Katy Cordeth:

        Tell me then, do you believe Salah al Bandar’s remarks are actionable?

        That is your objection? Really! And for that she is dishonest!

        That is the crux of it, yes.

        Are you barking mad?

        It rather depends on which of my personalities you’re referring to. Most of them are as sane as a sandwich, but one or two…

        Of all the people you can defend, the countless children lost to hunger and poverty, the countless lives lost to bronze age mythology, countless women living across globe as second class citizens you chose to argue for the rights of religious nutbags. Shame on you!

        Oh dear, I’m actually embarrassed for you, soulreaver. There are times on this site when I feel like this. I’ll try to keep it simple: my criticism of Maryam Namazie does not constitute a defense of Salah al Bandar. I don’t know anything about the man. He could be a complete bastard. He quite likely is, given the nature of his comments about Nahla Mahmoud. Frankly, it’s not relevant.

        It’s perfectly right, and indeed necessary, to hold to account those who would defend the defenseless, and to question their methods. The CEMB wishes to be seen as a serious advocacy group for former Muslims. There is a tremendous need for such bodies. But if they’re made up of people who are dishonest, it does a disservice to the ones they would represent. Credibility is paramount here, and Maryam Namazie’s seems to be lacking, as evidenced by her insistence that Ms Mahmoud was threatened by Salah al Bandar when she clearly wasn’t. It’s called crying wolf, soulreaver.

        I’m an atheist and I support the goals of ex- and atheist-Muslim support groups. What hay do you think their opponents would make of this sort of thing?

        I’m not sure that trying to shame me as you do when you say that because there’s hunger and want in the world and people living in misery, and suggesting I should shut up and be an obedient, compliant, non-questioning little atheist, does you any credit. Perhaps someone who knows about these things could tell me if this is a recognized fallacy. Exclamation Al kindly provided me with a List Of Fallacious Arguments in an earlier post of his, but it’s rather long. The closest I can come up with is this.

        I tend to take things as and when they show up. If none of us was able to comment on lesser issues because there exist greater ones, this would be a dull site indeed.

  16. Katy Cordeth is a poster who is willing to stand up to many who would rubbish her views here. She has a good earthy sense of humour and plenty of knowledge. Yes Katy I admire your posts. But not always agree with them.

    For all that, Islam is a poisonous state of mind to hold, (along with many others). A pernicious “submission” to what was “written” in the holy book. Well bollocks to the holy book and to its fallacious ideas.

    And bollocks to its Singlespeak as well.

  17. A person who identifies as a Muslim, is someone who stands in support and/or praise of a pedophile war criminal called Muhammed,
    and a set of texts called the Quran and the Hadiths! For this they are definitely blameworthy, and is by no means racist of someone to do so.
    Ironically its often people who identify as Muslims, that act in a racist manner by treating non-muslims in a different way.

    Malaysian court rules against non-Muslims’ use of ‘Allah’ word

    • In reply to #30 by Terra Watt:

      its often people who identify as Muslims, that act in a racist manner by treating non-muslims in a different way.

      Are non-Muslims a race? Perhaps the targets of racism don’t have to be a race.

      • In reply to #32 by aldous:

        In reply to #30 by Terra Watt:

        its often people who identify as Muslims, that act in a racist manner by treating non-muslims in a different way.

        Are non-Muslims a race? Perhaps the targets of racism don’t have to be a race.

        I have to say that you raised a very important point and that it has made me think.
        The target of racism I think definitely has to be a race, but I think its that the target of hate and prejudice that doesn’t have to be a race.
        Anyway, if you are hinting, that, I myself have been acting like a racist under the excuse, that Islam is just a belief, then I have to disagree.

        The action of the Malay court was like being racist, in that it involved compromising the freedom of speech of some people!
        Whereas as an atheist , I discriminated against some people as being blameworthy, on the basis of their views and believes.
        If I had called for their rights to be taken away or for them to be whipped in public, then I would have been acting in a racist manner as well.
        So my act of discrimination was not the same as their act of discrimination.

        I think it is good to hold people accountable for their views, by discriminating and judging them for the terrible things they condone and promote.
        In discriminating someone based on their thoughts, the individual is still being treated as an individual.
        Criticizing and judging someone purely because they have dark skin on the other hand is racist,
        where as criticizing or judging someone because they support a pedophile war criminal and his doctrine is not racist.

        Racist -
        2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

        So I think there is a difference and that its not racist for some to hold, that Muslims are blameworthy for their support towards Islam.

        What do you think?

  18. I am a vocal supporter of Maryam’s. She does a vitally important job and I thank her for it. But it doesn’t stop me wishing for better in many respects. Her Marxism would make sense more in specific areas if it was sold less by her as an ideological stance rather than a pragmatic one. Having read through the various bits on this threat uttered by al Bandar, the Cambridge Lib Dems refusal to release their translation is indicative to me of an unclear result rather than a confirmation of actual threat. They are plain wrong to not release their evidence even though it will drag the issue out and not aid a clear conclusion.

    al Bandar may or may not be a baddun, but he did one spectacularly good thing once over Bahrain and there is not enough evidence in the scales yet to call him ill-intentioned. This is a squib that was set off too soon as far as I can see. And for my third metaphor in as many sentences, he was not given enough rope to see what he would make of it.

    Maryam, though, is another pamphleteer. I don’t expect perfection from pamphleteers, but I sometimes wish for less emotion. And certainly not overplaying their hand. (Wow. Only four metaphors. I must be losing my touch.)

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