Britain under Sharia law?

74


Discussion by: David W

Recently I have been doing some reading about Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a well known former Muslim and now atheist activist. She fears that within decades, Britain will be under Sharia law due to the growing Muslim population and Islamic schools.

I would be interested to know if RDFRS readers think Ayaan’s fears are well founded and should  Britain and other western democracies take steps to prevent this from happening? Ayaan has the controversial proposal that Islamic schools in Britain should be closed down but I imagine that would lead to riots or worse.

Or perhaps we have nothing to fear as secularists in western democracies will always outnumber Muslims?

74 COMMENTS

  1. I am unfamiliar with the views of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, so I am perplexed as to how she thinks the Muslim population could rise so quickly.

    Number of Muslims in 2001: 3.1%
    Number of Muslims in 2011: 4.8%

    Nobody can predict the future, but surely there can be no serious prediction that shows the Muslim population will be above 20% by, say, 2031. And how many of these 20% want Sharia law?

    Edit to add:

    Apparently, the fear was supported by the fact that Muslim women have higher birth rates, but this is countered by the point that as societies become ‘better off’ the birth rate falls, supported by these facts:

    from http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050:

    Birth rate in England & Wales:

    ……………..Country.of.birth:

    ………………Eng.&.Wales……….India…..Pakistan.&.Bangladesh.
    1971…………….2.3…………………4.3…………….9.3
    1981…………….1.7…………………3.1…………….6.5
    1991…………….1.8…………………2.6…………….5.0
    1996…………….1.7…………………2.2…………….4.9

    It is likely the Pakistan.&.Bangladesh birth rate has fallen since 1996.

    • In reply to #1 by paulmarkj:

      I am unfamiliar with the views of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, so I am perplexed as to how she thinks the Muslim population could rise so quickly.

      Ditto I haven’t looked at her numbers. The ones I have seen usually involve a really naive extrapolation that assumes that anyone born a Muslim will grow up to become a supporter of Sharia law. On the other hand it is also worth pondering how large a well-organised minority in a democracy has to be before it has political power. They only have to be an important electoral influence in a sufficient number of seats to make their views worth listening to by all parties. What that number is depends on the detail of how the electoral process works but I imagine it could be quite small.

      Michael

  2. Well there are a few nutty Muslims such as Anjem Choudary who are working towards it. I suspect most Muslims are embarrassed by him. Still this movement may grow or fizzle out. If it grows, my fear is not that it will succeed but that it will cause serious tension, dissension and backlash against innocent Muslims.

  3. @OP – Or perhaps we have nothing to fear as secularists in western democracies will always outnumber Muslims?

    The present census figures of Muslims being 5% of the UK population suggest that is the case:-

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/sty-religion.html

    What is likely to be a problem is local concentrations or “ghettos” of minority groups in some areas.

  4. My opinion is that Islam will be more or less tamed in the same way Christianity was. Muslims in Britain will face the same problems of living and working in Britain as their non Muslim compatriots. As I see it, religion is no longer the “opiate of the people” in Britain. There are other diversions, TV. film, football, celebrities plus of course sex and other “decadent” western attractions.

    The mad mullahs are going to have their work cut out to keep their congregations. Being rabidly anti-western will not be very attractive for those living here. Yes of course there will be the odd nutters like the murderers of Lee Rigby, but then there are nutters in all walks of life.

    Of course the poisonous teachings of Islam should be fought at all opportunities.

    • In reply to #6 by Mr DArcy:

      My opinion is that Islam will be more or less tamed in the same way Christianity was.

      I too am optimistic. Islam is a still a young religion. What was christianity like in the 14th century?

      Muslims in Britain will face the same problems of living and working in Britain as their non Muslim compatriots. As I see it, religion is no longer the “opiate of the people” in Britain. There are other diversions, TV. film, football, celebrities plus of course sex and other “decadent” western attractions.

      don’t they has sex in muslim countries? where do babies come from then?

  5. The xian community, by and large, has grown past it’s barbaric past. If one looks for a turning point, the burning of Jan Hus may well serve. Xianity now serves more purposes of social cohesiveness, than demands of social conformity, enforced murderously. Leaving out the obvious, that it is all based mythological rubbish, the hard issue is that Islam has not similarly matured, and still sees itself in a military struggle and guerrilla war against the non Islamic world.

    Atheists do not set roadside bombs, nor in all fairness, do xians.

    Yes, they do have their detestable and sometimes violent extremists, and they do need to have the desire to teach idiocy to impressionable children muzzled, but the ambitions of the wilfully ignorant and murderous xians are being eroded and countered by the due processes, legal and cultural, that are already in place.

    To me, this makes issues such as arguments about evolution vs. creationist absurdity, while entertaining, somewhat a waste of energy that could be better directed at the deadliest of issues, which is the deep desire of Islam to replace and redefine our social order on a theistic basis, and a very deadly one at that. How to counter this will take new tools. Our present ways simply do not work, and in fact simply provide the mullahs the protection that institutions of freedom of speech and tolerance provide, giving them a platform from which to operate.

    The point is well made in another post that ghettoisation is far more likely than across the entire population. Two comparisons come from this. The first is the parallel to the fundamental structure of Al Quaeda, the second is the “across population” nature of Islam in Indonesia, where it is the best example one could choose if looking for a more mature and humanistic Islamic community.

    The conclusion I would draw is that ghettoisation is particularly dangerous, and is in fact a direct path to increased extremism.

    • In reply to #7 by Sheepdog:

      The conclusion I would draw is that ghettoisation is particularly dangerous, and is in fact a direct path to increased extremism.

      I live in Australia and have noticed that Muslim ghettos seem to be forming here as well. I get the impression that Muslims are much more reluctant to assimilate with the wider Australian community than other immigrants. It also appears Muslim parents are reluctant to send their children (especially girls) to sate schools, lest they be influenced by “decadent western values”. I fear that in the future this could lead to violence between Muslims and non Muslims due to incompatible values, much like what used to occur in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants. We’ve already had a taste of such violence during the Australia Day riots in Sydney a few years back.

      • In reply to #10 by David W:

        this could lead to violence between Muslims and non Muslims due to incompatible values, much like what used to occur in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants.

        Sorry, can’t let that pass unchallenged. Northern Ireland Catholics and Protestants don’t have incompatible values. They value the same things. The disagreement is over who has what share of those things. I hope the “used to occur” part is correct, though.

        • In reply to #11 by OHooligan:
          >

          I hope the “used to occur” part is correct, though.

          Unfortunately there are still some who think otherwise!

          60kg car bomb partially explodes in Belfast city centre – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25085035

          A masked gang hijacked a car at 21:30 GMT on Sunday, placed a bomb on board and ordered the driver to take it to a shopping centre.

          It exploded as Army bomb experts prepared to examine the car left at the entrance to Victoria Square car park.

          No-one was injured. Police have blamed dissident republicans.

          Northern Ireland’s chief constable Matt Baggott said there had been a “surge in dissident republican activity” recently.

          Last week, a bus driver was ordered to drive to a police station in Londonderry with a bomb on board.

        • Yes, they are incompatible. Perhaps not so much with regard to theological differences as with regard to identity. Shi’a and Sunni Muslims often hate each other even more than they hate westerners. Despite the fact that their faiths from a theological point of view are much closer to each other. The fact that Abrahamic religions seem pathologically incapable of living in peace together is not because the are so different from each other. In fact, they are very similar. That is ironically what make them so incompatible. They all claim to hold the absolute truth and that all others are wrong. It does not matter that the actual differences might seem trivial to an outsider. The important thing is that they identify as sworn enemies. Christians have been fighting each other for all time. Just think about how many wars have been fought between protestants and Catholics. Yes, often more for political than theological reasons. Nonetheless the fact that believers hold distinct religious identities is what makes this hatred possible. The conflict in Northern Ireland is just another of example of religious bigotry and hatred and how people with no good reasons to dislike or fight each other can’t live together peacefully because they hold different incompatible religious identities In reply to #11 by OHooligan:

          In reply to #10 by David W:

          this could lead to violence between Muslims and non Muslims due to incompatible values, much like what used to occur in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants.

          Sorry, can’t let that pass unchallenged. Northern Ireland Catholics and Protestants don’t have in…

      • In reply to #10 by David W:

        In reply to #7 by Sheepdog:

        The conclusion I would draw is that ghettoisation is particularly dangerous, and is in fact a direct path to increased extremism.

        I live in Australia and have noticed that Muslim ghettos seem to be forming here as well. I get the impression that Muslims are much more re…

        David, I am also in Australia (Hobart) and I returned after living some thirty years in Canada. The differences in the country between when I left and now are profound, and by virtue of absence stand out in stark detail. More so I suspect than the creeping change would be apparent to those who were here throughout the process.

        Your point about ghettoisation is well taken, and by design or by involuntary internal forces, it is the way that Islam is spreading. The ghettos will get bigger, until finally they touch and merge. Sharia law will gain greater influence as the ghettoes (wrong word, really) themselves take more and more power to themselves.

      • In reply to #10 by David W:
        >

        We’ve already had a taste of such violence during the Australia Day riots in Sydney a few years back.

        “A few years back” tells it’s own story I think. Hardly a serious problem is it. If you want to worry about something worry about the 200 plus million Muslim’s just beyond our vast undefended northern coastline. Worry about the political instability climate change is going to bring.

        Michael

      • In reply to #10 by David W:

        I live in Australia and have noticed that Muslim ghettos seem to be forming here as well. I get the impression that Muslims are much more reluctant to assimilate with the wider Australian community than other immigrants. It also appears Muslim parents are reluctant to send their children (especially girls) to sate schools, lest they be influenced by “decadent western values”.

        There is certainly a backward refusal to assimilate into the technically more advanced civilisations.

        I fear that in the future this could lead to violence between Muslims and non Muslims due to incompatible values, much like what used to occur in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants. We’ve already had a taste of such violence during the Australia Day riots in Sydney a few years back.

        They do not need non- Muslim communities to launch into jihadist violence:-

        http://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/2013/04/30/u-s-backed-syrian-rebels-behead-20-shia-muslims/

        Turkey and U.S. – backed Al-Qaeda FSA hang some of the heads on the entrance of the towns. They offered to give the headless bodies to the families, but for a ransom of about 100,000 Syrian Pound.

        The Shiite towns of Nubbol and AlZahraa a home for over 60,000 Syrians had been under siege for the last 10 months now by the “rebels”. The towns have reached the end of their rope. Children started dropping dead because of hunger.

        Knowing the danger still some of the residents ventured out, to bring food and supplies. That’s what happened to the latest group, twenty Shia men, who left to bring food to their families and children a week ago.

    • In reply to #7 by Sheepdog:

      Atheists do not set roadside bombs, nor in all fairness, do xians.

      The roadside bombs are crude weapons. Would you respect the Afghan liberation movement more if it had advanced technology? Perhaps you would be favourably impressed if they could hit the White House with drone strikes.

      • In reply to #12 by aldous:

        In reply to #7 by Sheepdog:

        Atheists do not set roadside bombs, nor in all fairness, do xians.

        The roadside bombs are crude weapons. Would you respect the Afghan liberation movement more if it had advanced technology? Perhaps you would be favourably impressed if they could hit the White House with…

        I suspect that your subtext is to point out that in an indirect way atheists, and xians, do set roadside bombs, by using their armed services to do their dirty work for them, using weapons of greater sophistication. That may be a point, but it is a different argument.

        My point is to compare the motivation and personal acceptance of violence between secular individuals, and those governed by a religion that condones individual violent acts.

        On the secular side, we rely on elected governments to set and implement policy. Sometimes rightly, and sometimes wrongly. But they are elected governments nonetheless. The jihadist requires no government, nor would he listen to one if it spoke. His motivation is purely the barbaric god whose fictitious demands he believes to transcend common and rational decency.

        If I am inferring something you are not implying, my apologies.

        • In reply to #14 by Sheepdog:

          The jihadist requires no government, nor would he listen to one if it spoke. His motivation is purely the barbaric god whose fictitious demands he believes to transcend common and rational decency.

          The New Taleban in Afghanistan/Pakistan is a Pashtun nationalist movement, fighting to free themselves from American neo-colonialism. It’s unfortunate that the tribal values they are in favour of are those of Pashtunwali but no people can be expected to accept American domination. The Soviets before them, and the British Empire before them, were unable to conquer Afghanistan.

  6. You have to keep in mind that there is no separation of Church and state in England. This is very clear in the number of faith schools that are part of the state education system. This shows no sign of changing. On the contrary, the number of religious schools is set to increase.

    There are

    approximately 7,000 Christian faith schools in England in 2011. The Roman Catholic church maintains 30% of schools. In addition, there are 12 Muslim, 42 Jewish, 4 Hindu and 2 Sikh [not in citation given] faith schools. Faith schools follow the same National Curriculum as state schools, with the exception of religious studies, where they are free to limit this to their own beliefs. (Wikipedia)

    • In reply to #8 by aldous:

      I did not know that there is no separation of Church and state in England. :(.
      So, comment that I put before about zero tolerance on building some religious schools can not be carried out so easily in Britain. Not that is easy anywhere :) . I am deeply sorry.

      • In reply to #19 by Modesti:

        I did not know that there is no separation of Church and state in England. :(.

        The comments of Ayaan Hirsi Ali were made specifically about Britain (#20), so the education system in England is directly relevant. Britain is secular, in the sense that religion is only practised by a small minority. However, for historical reasons, Christianity is embedded in its institutions. Instead of bringing government into line with 21st century realities by abolishing religious privilege, successive British governments have extended it to religions that have come into the country through immigration. The opposition to the imposition of Islamic values, notably in education, is part of the overall struggle towards the separation of Church and state in the UK.

        • In reply to #23 by aldous:

          However, for historical reasons, Christianity is embedded in its institutions. Instead of bringing government into line with 21st century realities by abolishing religious privilege, successive British governments have extended it to religions that have come into the country through immigration. The opposition to the imposition of Islamic values, notably in education, is part of the overall struggle towards the separation of Church and state in the UK.

          While idiot UK politicians are pandering to the religious and undermining education, there is nevertheless an inspection system which can, and does, jump on and threaten with closure, any “faith school” which seriously breaches legal curriculum requirements and teaching standards.

          http://www.richarddawkins.net/news-articles/2013/10/16/-al-madinah-free-school-to-be-damned-by-ofsted-inspectors-as-dysfunctional#

          • In reply to #31 by Alan4discussion:

            In reply to #23 by aldous:

            Quite right. There is a degree of oversight that prevents state-funded religious schools, including those in the new wave of ‘free’ schools, from just letting rip and acting as third world ‘madrasas’. Nevertheless, these schools have a free hand with religious instruction and worship in school time. What is, if anything, even more scandalous is that the two-thirds of schools that are non-religious are legally required to have religious teaching and religious worship. Granted, many of these schools flout the law and dilute or ignore these statutory requirements. It would be an important step to amend the education act to get rid of this imposition on children and teachers. Of course, teaching about the history of religion shouldn’t be neglected.

  7. This is mostly due to leftist and liberals blurring the truth about this religion.
    I have even asked this question on Atheism Plus, but got banned and called Islamophobe..
    I think it’s time for britain to say no for once and take a stand. I indeed love britain. i hope it can be maintained again, and the politicians responsible for this mess should be held accountable if solutions are made.
    Either way. Good luck :)

  8. #10 David W

    I live in Australia and have noticed that Muslim ghettos seem to be forming here as well. I get the impression that Muslims are much more reluctant to assimilate with the wider Australian community than other immigrants.>

    Perhaps they’re simply a little more visible than most. I remember that the new Vietnamese immigrants were viewed with suspicion as well, and rightly so with first generation immigrants at the time.

    violence between Muslims and non-Muslims due to incompatible values>

    For the most part I think we’re happy to embrace new cultures, especially in respect to Middle Eastern cuisine and cultural artefacts. There are a couple of areas of major difference.Muslim men seem to view western women with contempt. Everyday news accounts seem to confirm this attitude, such as the Muslim lawbreaker who refused to stand in the presence of a female judge. The fact that they appear to be over represented in accounts of criminal activity really doesn’t help their cause.

    Present figures may show that they’re outbreeding the mainstream population at the moment but I hardly think that this warrants any fear of sharia law gaining a foothold in the near future.There would have to be a major global power shift for that to happen. I think Ayaan Hirsi Ali is wrong about this and as much as I admire her, I see it as fear mongering.

  9. I tend to agree with Hirsi Ali. I am not British so I can not feel the situation in Great Britain, but I have seen some of her interviews and I think that she knows what she is saying with this statement. Actually, in my opinion generally one has to fight against inhumanity with no regards towards decency, or “respect” for other cultures. Religion is not a cultural heritage worthy of respect; it is not a cultural heritage at all. There HAS TO be zero tolerance for building a religious schools, and spreading of religion beliefs, and propaganda. States must be determined, because this is undermining of common sense. Generally civilized people let others to spread their beliefs because it is human, it is what civilized human being should do, but we are forgetting that they are not civilized people but they are stuck in their ancient and not so human rules. I sound very rough and uncivilized, but it has to be that way or one looses a fight with their religious mentality and “tradition”. I always remember a saying that evil flourishes when good people do nothing. :)

    • In reply to #18 by Modesti:
      I think you would be hard pressed to look at all human history objectively and say that religion has no cultural heritage. You can certainly point out the abuses of religion over the centuries (just as you can point out the abuses of atheistic societies of the 20th century) but to say all religion has no cultural heritage? Let’s be fair and accurate.

      I tend to agree with Hirsi Ali. I am not British so I can not feel the situation in Great Britain, but I have seen some of her interviews and I think that she knows what she is saying with this statement. Actually, in my opinion generally one has to fight against inhumanity with no regards towards d…

  10. For those interested, Ayaan’s comments were made in an interview with the Evening Standard in 2007.

    Here is some more of what she said:

    *Hirsi Ali says that on current projections of immigration growth and birth rates, British Muslims will be the dominant group within the next 50 years. A recent poll, in which 40 per cent of young Muslims said they would prefer to live under Sharia law, and a majority said they were in favour of women taking the veil, should worry liberals.
    ‘We risk a reverse takeover. In 50 years, a majority Muslim society could democratically vote for Sharia law, and then what you face is that Britain will slowly start to look like Saudi Arabia. Women will be veiled, driven away from the public sphere, polygamy will be rife.’ *

  11. Hi David,

    It is clear from news reports and organizations such as the Council of ex-Muslims* that Sharia is already a reality in Britain.

    Britain’s monarch, currently Queen Elizabeth, is head of certain churches that are also established religions. This means they get State sponsorship and have special status – unelected parliamentary representation, for example.

    Historically these churches ran their own courts. Large parts of the legal cannon used to be run by the Established Church.

    Britain could, therefore, be described as a Theocracy. It is an extremely mild theocracy, to be sure, and it functions as a democracy for the vast majority of the time.

    Thus, when Muslims asked the last Government to approve Islamic Courts for the arbitration of family matters such as divorce, contested last wills and so on, they received ‘parity’. It was viewed, naively, as simply allowing established Muslim communities the opportunity to catch up with Christians and Jews (who also have a religion-specific arbitration system).

    These Sharia courts have come under severe criticism for being, as reported, very misogynistic, secretive, handing down decisions which are illegal, being misused by people who hide the fact that Sharia Courts are an alternative to civil courts (by deciding to use one you do not lose your right to refer your case to the civil courts) and more.

    As noted above, Muslims make up a tiny minority in Britain. In addition, a minority of that minority are using the Sharia Courts, and minority of those referring cases to Sharia are misusing the Courts. Just because the problem is small, of course, doesn’t mean that injustices do not occur …

    Our Sharia experience highlights the need to sweep away religious courts of all kinds.

    • At the time of writing the Council of ex-Muslims Net Site has been cracked and I cannot provide more details.

    Peace.

  12. Nick Keighley:

    I too am optimistic. Islam is a still a young religion. What was christianity like in the 14th century?

    Ah but Britain is a different place now from the 14th century ! Things move faster, and the Muslims resident here, have to live in the real world of British capitalism. As I said earlier, the imans and mullahs have got quite a bit of competition to get people’s attention these days. In my own life time I have seen the once all pervasive Church of England, shrink to almost a non-entity, where even an ex Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, describes its state as being likely to “die within a generation”.

    I suspect a wee bit of Islam envy from him !

  13. OK yes there is ghettoisation of muslims in the cities, and as a group they are growing (which means they will at some point out number the shrinking population of christians if current trends continue) however they will still amount to a tiny minority even if they manage to turn around the rate of apostasy. As such there is no democratic means by which Sharia could be implemented, even after Anglicanism collapses they would be no more than a statistical blip.

    The 2nd generation show little interest in this non-sense, Choudrey’s group has been banned several times and Muslims remain a non-entity away from the cities. I can only see Sharia being imposed via armed force which would polarise the issue.

  14. Be afraid, be very afraid.

    just kidding :
    I visited London this past summer and for the first two days I wondered if there were any Englishmen in jolly ol’ England. (Thank goodness for rush hour on the Tube. ) I’ve noticed a significant increase in the Muslim population where I live. I used to be open minded about diversity, but recently I’ve been changing my mind. If women are required to follow a certain dress code, I can guarantee someone would surely want me to follow these rules as well. I think it is important to take steps now by making certain positive laws are in place that allow people to practice personal freedoms and guarantee equal treatment of sexes, etc.

  15. Anyone who gets the impression that true-blue Brits are a minority in London is dead right. The transformation is happening at great speed. During the summer months, as millions of tourists pour into the capital, the effect will be accentuated. London, like many other cities, is international. The results of migration are everywhere. It’s a fact of 21st century life.

    In 2011 only 45 per cent of London’s population were white people of English, Scottish or Welsh descent.

    • In reply to #35 by aldous:

      Anyone who gets the impression that true-blue Brits are a minority in London is dead right. The transformation is happening at great speed. During the summer months, as millions of tourists pour into the capital, the effect will be accentuated. London, like many other cities, is international. The r…

      London, however, is not representative of Britain. It’s pretty much disconnected from the rest of the country. It’s just unfortunate (and another argument entirely) that the economic and political system are run primarily for the benefit of it and its surrounding area.

  16. This is bullshit and the kind of rhetoric that racists and xenophobes use. The problem obviously is not Muslims taking over the western world. Only insane people regard that as even remotely possible within the foreseeable future.

    That said, does not mean that multiculturalism and Islamist tendencies won’t cause a lot problems in the future. The main problem as I see it is that in many western countries we are more and more accepting that certain members of our society (just because they have a certain cultural background) are not entitled to the same rights as all the other citizens. Political correctness and cultural sensitivity seems to be more important than the principle of equality before the law. It’s ironic that these people who are allegedly defending multiculturalism are actually creating a society where different cultures are separated from each other (even judicially).

    • In reply to #36 by Nunbeliever:

      This is bullshit and the kind of rhetoric that racists and xenophobes use. The problem obviously is not Muslims taking over the western world. Only insane people regard that as even remotely possible within the foreseeable future.

      That said, does not mean that multiculturalism and Islamist tendenci…

      “Only insane people regard that as even remotely possible within the foreseeable future”

      Like the ‘insane people’ who warned about Hitler? Have a look at the state of play in Belgium and perhaps think again…
      What about the ‘unforeseeable future’? Any tips?

  17. Anyone who gets the impression that true-blue Brits are a minority in London is dead right. The transformation is happening at great speed. During the summer months, as millions of tourists pour into the capital, the effect will be accentuated.

    This is an excellent reason for handsome British men to hit on American women visiting London. Even less handsome men have an advantage over American men. We love the way you speak and if we like you, we could potentially provide you with the opportunity to live in a less crowded country while in turn you can and help save us from the fundamentalists. Get out now while you have the chance. By the way, if you are that handsome lt. brownish wavy haired man that said hello to me near the Saatchi Gallery in early July, so sorry, I caught something from the Tube and my stay in London was at an end. My regret.

    • In reply to #35 by aldous:

      Anyone who gets the impression that true-blue Brits are a minority in London is dead right. The transformation is happening at great speed. During the summer months, as millions of tourists pour into the capital, the effect will be accentuated. London, like many other cities, is international. The results of migration are everywhere. It’s a fact of 21st century life.

      In 2011 only 45 per cent of London’s population were white people of English, Scottish or Welsh descent.

      Bp;dr, but this New Statesman article gives some perspective on that “45 percent white British” statistic.

      In reply to #33 and #39 by QuestioningKat:

      I visited London this past summer and for the first two days I wondered if there were any Englishmen in jolly ol’ England.

      What makes you think the men you saw were not English?

      I’ve noticed a significant increase in the Muslim population where I live. I used to be open minded about diversity, but recently I’ve been changing my mind.

      It sounds like you were open about diversity until it began to permeate through to your own world. It’s easy to be tolerant of others when they’re far away. If the principles you had evaporated the moment they became inconvenient, my guess is they were never really there in the first place.

      If women are required to follow a certain dress code, I can guarantee someone would surely want me to follow these rules as well.

      So? The world is full of people who think others should follow the rules they themselves subscribe to. Your Christian neighbors probably think you should go to church and follow the Ten Commandments. That doesn’t mean they get to make you. Most Muslims don’t care if non-Muslim women wear Islamic attire anyway.

      I think it is important to take steps now by making certain positive laws are in place that allow people to practice personal freedoms and guarantee equal treatment of sexes, etc.

      Yeah, there should be a constitution or bill of rights or universal declaration of human rights or something to guarantee these things.

      Anyone who gets the impression that true-blue Brits are a minority in London is dead right. The transformation is happening at great speed. During the summer months, as millions of tourists pour into the capital, the effect will be accentuated.

      This is an excellent reason for handsome British men to hit on American women visiting London. Even less handsome men have an advantage over American men. We love the way you speak and if we like you, we could potentially provide you with the opportunity to live in a less crowded country while in turn you can and help save us from the fundamentalists. Get out now while you have the chance.

      I agree. All those who are so dull or so frightened of diversity they want to go and live in Stepfordian gated bliss with razor wire and guard dogs to keep out the ‘ethnics’, please take advantage of Kat’s generous offer. Be warned though, according to this article by the year 2043 Hispanics will outnumber whites in the US. More reason than ever perhaps to prioritize efforts to colonize the Red Planet.

      By the way, if you are that handsome lt. brownish wavy haired man that said hello to me near the Saatchi Gallery in early July, so sorry, I caught something from the Tube and my stay in London was at an end. My regret.

      Sounds like you should have stayed above ground after all.

      Get out now while you have the chance.

      Be afraid, be very afraid.

      just kidding :

      It doesn’t seem like you’re kidding at all.

      • In reply to #40 by Katy Cordeth:

        Bp;dr, but this New Statesman article gives some perspective on that “45 percent white British” statistic.

        How did the FT paywall spring up? I read the article and there was no paywall. When I looked back to check after seeing your remark, a paywall had been put up. A really cunning move by the FT.

        Anyway, the ‘only 45% of Londoners are white British’ is, presumably, correct on the basis that many Brits are not white and many white Londoners are not British-born. I just think it’s a fun statistic and all the more entertaining because it annoys the fearful and phobish. You’re one of these ghastly foreigners yourself, aren’t you?

        • In reply to #47 by aldous:

          Anyway, the ‘only 45% of Londoners are white British’ is, presumably, correct on the basis that many Brits are not white and many white Londoners are not British-born. I just think it’s a fun statistic and all the more entertaining because it annoys the fearful and phobish. You’re one of these ghastly foreigners yourself, aren’t you?

          Indeed. It’s a bit like saying that only 10% of Londoners are white, British, Christian men.

          It wouldn’t take a particularly conscientious person to pick up on the gender and religious factors there, but to over look the race one is rather bemusing. The nationality is of course the only valid factor there, but given London’s position as one of the worlds truly global cities, along with the likes of New York and Shanghai, even that’s not very important.

  18. Nothing Hirsi Ali says is unfounded. She had to live in a bullet-proof (RPG-proof also, if I recall correctly) structure after her apostasy. The bean crunchers early in the topic mistake the probable existence of Sharia-run communities, with some sort of UK-wide “relevant to me” scenario. Sad oversight being, one neighbourhood falling subject to this ghastly barbarism should be relevant to everyone.

  19. Many comments ignore Islam’s professed aims- 100% muslim world, by whatever means possible.

    Had the Islamic armies not been defeated at the siege of Vienna and expelled by Ferdinand of Spain, Europe would have been muslim to this day. History shows that once established, Islam is almost impossible to eradicate.

    Endless brainwashing via the call to prayer 5 times a day, followed by mosque indoctrination certainly keeps the pressure on muslims.

    • In reply to #44 by Fritz:
      >

      Had the Islamic armies not been defeated at the siege of Vienna and expelled by Ferdinand of Spain, Europe would have been muslim to this day. History shows that once established, Islam is almost impossible to eradicate…

      OK so Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and Isreal were once Islamic but are not now. There are precedents for the de-islamification of states, not that all are are particularly encouraging, but it can be done.

      • In reply to #58 by Mr Greene:

        In reply to #44 by Fritz:

        Had the Islamic armies not been defeated at the siege of Vienna and expelled by Ferdinand of Spain, Europe would have been muslim to this day. History shows that once established, Islam is almost impossible to eradicate…

        OK so Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, M…

        I so hope you’re right but history shows it can take decades or centuries to eradicate the virus and I don’t see the political will to take on the challenge, or even admit its existence. Cameron on the Lee Rigby murder- “nothing to do with Islam”… Obama- “the future does not belong to those who insult the prophet”

        ‘BTW-Today, the Muslim-majority regions of Europe are Albania, Kosovo, parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, parts of Bulgaria and Macedonia, as well as some Russian regions in Northern Caucasus and the Volga region’ Not to mention Turkey…or Cyprus North, part of Turkey?

        And ‘Isreal’ (in Europe?)

        I see no hope of de-Islamization in my lifetime, unless major hostilities break out, possibly initiated by islamic invasion of Israel.

        • In reply to #65 by Fritz:

          I see no hope of de-Islamization in my lifetime

          When Pakistan has the same GDP per capita as the UK, you’ll probably see a similar disregard for religion. It’s a matter of economic and social development.

          • In reply to #67 by aldous:

            In reply to #65 by Fritz:

            I see no hope of de-Islamization in my lifetime

            When Pakistan has the same GDP per capita as the UK, you’ll probably see a similar disregard for religion. It’s a matter of economic and social development.

            This is right. Look at Saudi Arabia. Almost same GDP as UK and almost same respect for human rights and disregard for religion. It’s a matter of economic and social development.

          • In reply to #68 by G_O_D:

            It’s a matter of economic and social development.

            Saudi Arabia GDP per capita $31,800 (2012 est.), UK $37,500 (2012 est.) (World Factbook). It is indeed a matter of social and economic development. Saudi Arabia is undeveloped in both respects, the society being governed by a monarchy in close union with religious authorities and the economy being undiversified and totally dependent on oil income.

      • In reply to #58 by Mr Greene:

        OK so Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and Isreal were once Islamic but are not now.

        May I point out that at least 6 of the countries you mention were as Islamic as Morocco was catholic? They were under Ottoman rule with various degrees of autonomy and the Turks did not bother much with imposing Islam.

  20. My goodness Katy – for you to spend so much effort picking apart my post is a bit concerning. …Even the comment responding about catching something from the Tube. lol!

    All those who are so dull or so frightened of diversity they want to go and live in Stepfordian gated bliss with razor wire and guard dogs to keep out the ‘ethnics’, please take advantage of Kat’s generous offer.

    lol! All those with Katy’s poor sense of humor and ability to belittle and bash like a little Miss fix it, please lighten up a bit.

    It sounds like you have issues that really have nothing to do with me. Perhaps you should refrain from assuming you know people over the internet.

    • In reply to #45 by QuestioningKat:

      My goodness Katy – for you to spend so much effort picking apart my post is a bit concerning. …Even the comment responding about catching something from the Tube. lol!

      All those who are so dull or so frightened of diversity they want to go and live in Stepfordian gated bliss with razor wire and g…

      You are not alone in suffering from Ms Cordeth’s rather acid tongue; no doubt I’ll be next!

    • In reply to #47 by aldous:

      In reply to #40 by Katy Cordeth:

      …You’re one of these ghastly foreigners yourself, aren’t you?

      That rather depends where you are yourself, but yeah, I was born in the US and have a couple of homes over there. I’m half British too and live there for much of the year. Dual citizenship in other words. American crassness coupled with English haughtiness, how was I not going to have issues? Which brings me to…

      In reply to #45 by QuestioningKat:
      My goodness Katy – for you to spend so much effort picking apart my post is a bit concerning. …Even the comment responding about catching something from the Tube. lol!

      All those who are so dull or so frightened of diversity they want to go and live in Stepfordian gated bliss with razor wire and g…

      Hello Kat. I hope you don’t mind me asking but are you new to RDFRS or to discussion websites generally? I’m curious only because picking apart someone’s post is part of what these things are about. Someone submits a comment which others are invited to analyse and respond to, pointing out any flaws in reasoning which may be present or expressing their own difference of opinion. The person who made the original comment is then free to defend her position if she chooses, and so on. Others may join in to offer their thoughts, and this exchange of ideas will hopefully provide intellectual stimulation both for those engaging in the colloquy and other site members or guests who follow it.

      This process falls at the first hurdle if instead of addressing the points the second poster makes, the first says things like “I’m concerned about the effort you put in replying to my comment,” or “If you disagree with me you must have ‘issues’.” It’s called argumentum ad hominem, Kat, a Latinate term meaning to attack someone personally rather than respond to their argument, and I’m afraid it’s considered inimical to reasoned discussion.

      I’ll try to work on my sense of humor.

      In reply to #46 by Fritz:

      In reply to #45 by QuestioningKat:

      …You are not alone in suffering from Ms Cordeth’s rather acid tongue; no doubt I’ll be next!

      I’m loath to disappoint, but my acid reserves have been rather depleted of late, Fritz. Any tongue-lashing you were hoping to be on the receiving end of will have to wait until another day. Sorry.

        • In reply to #51 by mmurray:

          In reply to #50 by Katy Cordeth:

          Hello Kat. I hope you don’t mind me asking but are you new to RDFRS

          Joined on 25 May 2011 !

          Michael

          Oh, right. Sorry. I’m terrible with names. If you didn’t sign off every post with ‘Michael’, I wouldn’t have any idea what the m in mmurray stood for. You posted this comment a few days ago and I very nearly contacted the Australian authorities because I thought you were undergoing a home invasion or something and this was your way of communicating it to your RDFRS pals.

          You’re one of the original crop of RDnetters. If people don’t know by now what your first name is, the hell with them. If newbies are curious about it, they’re welcome to ask me. Funny, smart, beardy Aussie, name of Michael, likes coffee, hates tea.

          Another member has recently taken to signing off with the first letters of his username. What does that add? What would it contribute if I put my initials at the end of my comments? “These are the first letters of my name”? That can be deduced by the simple expedient of not covering your left eye, not turning your head ever so slightly to the right and not squinting a bit when looking at the computer screen.

          oad of ollocks.

          • In reply to #53 by Katy Cordeth:

            In reply to #51 by mmurray:

            In reply to #50 by Katy Cordeth:

            Hello Kat. I hope you don’t mind me asking but are you new to RDFRS

            Joined on 25 May 2011 !

            Michael

            Oh, right. Sorry. I’m terrible with names. If you didn’t sign off every post with ‘Michael’, I wouldn’t have any idea what the m in mm…

            Oops I think I should apologise. I was just answering your question to QuestioningKat who joined on 25 May 2011. If you click on her avatar it’s all there.

            I randomly forget to put my name. I did at one point have it appearing fully as my username but my account got upset one day. I can’t Edit now I can only Delete. I also seem to only be able to login via Google.

            Michael

          • In reply to #54 by mmurray:

            In reply to #53 by Katy Cordeth:

            …Oops I think I should apologise. I was just answering your question to QuestioningKat who joined on 25 May 2011. If you click on her avatar it’s all there.

            I knew who you were talking about, Malcolm… Mervyn… Michael!!

            The point of my response was that you don’t need to put your name because we all know who you are. But by all means continue to do so.

            It bugs me slightly, as does ExclamationAl’s excessive overpunctuation!!!!!, but it’s my problem, not you guyseses.

            Sorry about your editing issues too. I use Google Chrome and don’t have any trouble.

      • In reply to #50 by Katy Cordeth:

        I was born in the US and have a couple of homes over there.

        Not one of us, then. Great to have you wealthy people among us, making London the great global capital that it is.

        Incidentally, an ad hominem is not making personal remarks. It’s a fallacy in informal logic whereby an argument is said to be wrong because of the failings of the person making the argument rather than its internal inconsistency. It’s not a synonym for an insult.

        Like other alleged fallacies, it’s not necessarily unreasonable at all. It’s fun to throw these Latin terms around and they can sometimes make a point if properly used.

  21. Personally, I really liked and enjoyed London and wouldn’t mind living there if I had the opportunity. I hope to be back soon, so much yet to see. I mean no disrespect to any Londoners; I apologize if I came off as offensive – You really have a lovely and fun city. It was an odd experience flying out of Canada being in the minority and then having the same experience in London. I later found out that heading to London just before Ramadan is some sort of tradition which would explain some of the circumstances. It reminded me of traveling to Hawaii and meeting only a few actual Hawaiians (only to learn their population is diminishing – sad really.) If I would ever travel to Iran and be greeted by masses of people from Kentucky I’d be scratching my head too.

    • In reply to #48 by QuestioningKat:

      Personally, I really liked and enjoyed London and wouldn’t mind living there if I had the opportunity. I hope to be back soon, so much yet to see. I mean no disrespect to any Londoners;

      I would not worry about it Kat. London is a bit like another planet in comparison to many other parts of the UK.

      • In reply to #61 by Alan4discussion:

        In reply to #48 by QuestioningKat:

        Personally, I really liked and enjoyed London and wouldn’t mind living there if I had the opportunity. I hope to be back soon, so much yet to see. I mean no disrespect to any Londoners;

        I would not worry about it Kat. London is a bit like another planet in comparison to many other parts of the UK.

        Yes indeed, Kat. The rest of England is exactly like this.

        White people as far as the eye can see.

        Marvelous.

  22. As for the topic at hand. I don’t feel particularly threatened by Sharia law in Britain, even as a homosexual atheist.
    It may be partly because I live in the South West which is about as removed from London as you can be without moving to North Wales or Scotland, but I think it’s mainly because I just don’t believe people in Britain will ever allow it to happen.

    Of course you’ll get the odd groups trying to enforce Sharia Law, but they won’t succeed. The only people Sharia Law poses a threat to in Britain are other Muslims, which in itself is a great shame but you can’t propose to address it without being branded Islamophobic. They have the right to express their religion, and from their perspective and the perspective of religious apologists, they have the right to indoctrinate and abuse their female family members…

    I would be far more concerned with Sharia Law in other countries, that don’t have such an established cultural or legal foundation with which to resist pressure from radical Muslim groups. Where Sharia Law is widely practiced and in direct opposition to many human rights we take for granted in Britain and the rest of the developed world.

    • In reply to #52 by Seraphor:

      As for the topic at hand. I don’t feel particularly threatened by Sharia law in Britain, even as a homosexual atheist. It may be partly because I live in the South West which is about as removed from London as you can be without moving to North Wales or Scotland, but I think it’s mainly because I just don’t believe people in Britain will ever allow it to happen.

      There are signs that even politicians are starting to take notice of the unreasonable demands being made, and the “politically (in)correct” fudging by accommodationists!

      Downing Street joins university segregation row – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25365658
      >

      Downing Street has strongly condemned university leaders whose guidance endorsed voluntary segregation of men and women at guest events on campus.

      The prime minister’s official spokesman said David Cameron felt “very strongly about this”.

      “He doesn’t believe guest speakers should be allowed to address segregated audiences.”

      The spokesman added that the guidance, from the umbrella body, Universities UK (UUK), should be urgently reviewed.

  23. I apologise for this late addition to this discussion but as it happens to be a subject that effects my daily working and personal life, I really must put my view out there.

    I’ve always considered myself a reasonable thinking person and for the most part reasonably easy going when it comes to diversity and peoples personal lives. However as an Atheist and patriot of this country I draw the line at the ongoing and growing Muslim belief system that infests this sovereign land. Quite frankly it is irrelevant whether Sharia Law will gain a foothold in this country because there will be full blown riots well before it gets to that. The Muslim way of life and the people that practice it are archaic in their religious beliefs at best, despite the fundamental aspect and as such this religion particularly, should be prevented from being practiced in this country.
    However I would tolerate most other religions to be practiced in the privacy of the home, ( if that was necessary) but not leak in to the public domain. I fully appreciate that many people have faith, and if that helps them through their lives then fine, but this should not interfere with peoples’ day to day living.

    The political leaders ( I use the term loosely) of this country continue to bow down to the minorities and ‘doo-gooders’ to the extent that we now have situations where some schools are having to cater for children speaking 10 – 20 languages in some cases, notwithstanding there religious indoctrinations!! This is ridiculous situation which can not continue and I look forward to the day when the s**t hits the fan.
    Sharia Law is an abomination and though it may not effect none Muslim people directly, it will have a knock on effect on how the country is Policed and how the justice sytem is applied. This fundamental Muslim law is from the dark ages and has no place in any modern world country, least of all this one. AND BAN THE BURKA!!!!

  24. I apologise for this late addition to this discussion but as it happens to be a subject that effects my daily working and personal life, I really must put my view out there.

    I’ve always considered myself a reasonable thinking person and for the most part reasonably easy going when it comes to diversity and peoples personal lives. However as an Atheist and patriot of this country I draw the line at the ongoing and growing Muslim belief system that infests this sovereign land. Quite frankly it is irrelevant whether Sharia Law will gain a foothold in this country because there will be full blown riots well before it gets to that. The Muslim way of life and the people that practice it are archaic in their religious beliefs at best, despite the fundamental aspect and as such this religion particularly, should be prevented from being practiced in this country.
    However I would tolerate most other religions to be practiced in the privacy of the home, ( if that was necessary) but not leak in to the public domain. I fully appreciate that many people have faith, and if that helps them through their lives then fine, but this should not interfere with peoples’ day to day living.

    The political leaders ( I use the term loosely) of this country continue to bow down to the minorities and ‘doo-gooders’ to the extent that we now have situations where some schools are having to cater for children speaking 10 – 20 languages in some cases, notwithstanding there religious indoctrinations!! This is ridiculous situation which can not continue and I look forward to the day when the s**t hits the fan.
    Sharia Law is an abomination and though it may not effect none Muslim people directly, it will have a knock on effect on how the country is Policed and how the justice sytem is applied. This fundamental Muslim law is from the dark ages and has no place in any modern world country, least of all this one. AND BAN THE BURKA!!!!

  25. Hello Kat. I hope you don’t mind me asking but are you new to RDFRS or to discussion websites generally? I’m curious only because picking apart someone’s post is part of what these things are about. Someone submits a comment which others are invited to analyse and respond to, pointing out any flaws in reasoning which may be present or expressing their own difference of opinion.

    No, I am not new. You will find that if you reread all my posts, I try to never attack someone personally.

    Picking apart post is acceptable when it relates to factual information. Reread your posts; they were personal in nature and quite humorous considering my comment was a joke. Your comments were personal slams that assumed that you knew my intentions.I recall another post of yours (?) that assumed to know my intentions (leaning on the negative side.) No offense taken, but I am taken back by your response I thought you were more tactful than your comment leads me to believe.

  26. What ever a person views Ayaan Hirsi Ali is correct. I am a woman whose ancestors fought for our rights as free citizens of Britain. I loath any women from the Islam faith to cover up. This is making her a second class citizen and for men to tell her what to do. All faith schools should close down as education has nothing what so ever to do with “fairy stories” religion. I won’t be around if Muslims are out breeding the secularists however the future of Britain will mean that we have to tolerant people who want bring the middle ages back to our country. It is called a very weak Government.

  27. I think it’s useful to look back at how South Africa became an apartheid state in 1948. Originally the Afrikaaners were a substantial minority in South Africa and as i understand it they focused single-mindedly on increasing their numbers so that they could gain a majority in Parliament, this eventually transpiring.They passed apartheid legislation through the Parliament using democratic procedures and the judiciary had to support the laws even though many judges were against them. So one would certainly have to be sure that any non-democratic group cannot get the numbers. But what if there were a religious coalition?

  28. It is a fair question in view of the media coverage of this so called Sharia Law. I have some knowledge of this from my own study and also discussion with many learned muslims. However, there are as many Sharias in the muslim world as there are many sects. None of them agree on anyone. These Sharia laws are the product of the dictatorships of the middle ages which have outlived their utility. Most recognise it and know that these are not worth even studying any more as these are worn out ideas from the past. As rational thinking is gradually replacing the emotive states of these sectarian religious feelings, people are rejecting these ideas on an evolutionary pace. We have seen democracies finding support in these lands despite many interventions both internal and external. In Britain or for that matter anywhere in the world Sharia Laws have zero acceptance and even in Saudi Arabia this is going to fizzle out in a very near future. The world is shrinking at common man’s level through this communication revolution. People are coming together rapidly through internet and in not a far distant future a visa free world is going to shape up where mankind will come closer. More on this later. Ed

  29. I think she’s wrong. No small minority is going to expand at the rate she suggests. What is an issue, however, is the self-ghettoisation that happens in some cities: enclaves where social customs and behaviour still owe more to the mores of, say, rural Pakistan.

  30. I agree with Ayaan 100%.
    First of all she knows much better than us about Muslims and what is they’re purpose in populating Britain.
    For all we know, they did and still do the same thing in France.
    The koran it self stands for killing or transforming all those that are not Muslims. That is the prophecy of Muhamad.
    If Britain won’t stop it NOW, they’re entire population will be Muslims, like France now days. It is horrible because countries full of beautiful history and great culture being silently conquered by the Muslims and slowing they’re development.
    I am terrified it will happen to Britain as well. They have to send them to their own countries, to live there.
    Why are they the ONLY nation that never stays behind their own borders and countries ??
    They have more than enough places to live in..
    Now i know it sounds rather like a fiction story, but they planing to take over the world. That is the perfection for them.
    We have to fight it , fight religion.

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