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Monday, May 14, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Furor over author Ayaan Hirsi Ali's visit stirs debate on religious freedom

by Robin Acton, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Thanks to Ranjani for the link.

Reposted from:
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/rss/print_503977.html

Say what you want about your religion.

Go ahead, say anything that comes into your mind -- even if you don't agree with your minister, your priest, your rabbi. Even if you think you're right and they've got it all wrong, as long as you're not making a direct threat to someone, you can disagree or turn your back and walk away to another faith or to no faith at all.

Here, in America, it's OK. In a land of more than 3,000 diverse religions, your right to religious liberty is a guaranteed protection under the First Amendment.

"The key in the U.S. from the beginning has been to make sure all religious groups not only understand freedoms, but connect them to their own commitment," said Charles C. Haynes, senior scholar and director of educational programs at the First Amendment Center in Arlington, Va., and Nashville.

A community debate over religious freedom surfaced in Western Pennsylvania last week when Dutch feminist author Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali refugee who has lived under the threat of death for denouncing her Muslim upbringing, made an appearance at the University of Pittsburgh at Johnstown.

Islamic leaders tried to block the lecture, which was sponsored through an endowment from the Frank J. and Sylvia T. Pasquerilla Lecture Series. They argued that Hirsi Ali's attacks against the Muslim faith in her book, "Infidel," and movie, "Submission," are "poisonous and unjustified" and create dissension in their community.

Although university officials listened to Islamic leaders' concerns, the lecture planned last year took place Tuesday evening under tight security, with no incidents.

Imam Fouad ElBayly, president of the Johnstown Islamic Center, was among those who objected to Hirsi Ali's appearance.

"She has been identified as one who has defamed the faith. If you come into the faith, you must abide by the laws, and when you decide to defame it deliberately, the sentence is death," said ElBayly, who came to the U.S. from Egypt in 1976.

Hirsi Ali, an atheist, has been critical of many Muslim beliefs, particularly on subjects of sexual morality, the treatment of women and female genital mutilation. In her essay "The Caged Virgin," she also wrote of punishment, noting that "a Muslim's relationship with God is one of fear."

"Our God demands total submission. He rewards you if you follow His rules meticulously. He punishes you cruelly if you break His rules, both on earth, with illness and natural disasters, and in the hereafter, with hellfire," she wrote.

In some Muslim countries, such as Iran, apostasy -- abandoning one's religious belief -- and blasphemy are considered punishable by death under sharia, a system of laws and customs that treats both public and private life as governable by God's law.

Sharia is based largely on an interpretation of the Quran, the sayings of the Prophet Mohammed, a consensus of Islamic scholars and reasoning, according to the New York-based Council on Foreign Relations. In some countries, sharia has been associated with stoning to death those who are accused of adultery, flogging for drinking wine and amputation of a hand for theft.

One of the most noted cases of apostasy in recent years involved author Salman Rushdie, whose novel "The Satanic Verses" offered an unflattering portrayal of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed. The book prompted Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to issue a fatwa -- a religious decree -- in 1989 calling for Rushdie's assassination.

Although ElBayly believes a death sentence is warranted for Hirsi Ali, he stressed that America is not the jurisdiction where such a crime should be punished. Instead, Hirsi Ali should be judged in a Muslim country after being given a trial, he added.

"If it is found that a person is mentally unstable, or a child or disabled, there should be no punishment," he said. "It's a very merciful religion if you try to understand it."

Zahida Chaudhary, a member of the education council and education secretary at the Muslim Community Center of Greater Pittsburgh in Monroeville, insisted that Islam is a peaceful religion.


"The Prophet Mohammed was a peacemaker and a role model for humanity," she said. "My understanding is that he was a peaceful person who believed that religion was a choice. He tried to teach people and bring them into it, not punish them."

Haynes, who has studied and written extensively about religious liberty and has worked with many Muslim groups, said he was "stunned" by ElBayly's comments.

"There are more radical, extreme views of Islam in European counties than in the U.S. It's rare to hear it and even more rare to learn that American Muslims believe it," he said.

While Hirsi Ali is viewed as an infidel among the Islamic community, those who speak out against other religions usually are met with discussion, prayer and counseling. In extreme cases, critics might be shown the door.

"One is free to choose whatever religion and body of truths one wants to believe," said the Rev. Ronald Lengwin, spokesman for the Roman Catholic Diocese. "The church fosters freedom of religion. That's a decision everyone has to make on their own."

Centuries ago, Lengwin said, the church imposed harsh punishment -- including execution -- upon people viewed as heretics. He cited as an example the Roman Inquisition trial of 15th century Italian astronomer Galileo Galilei, who was tried by the church, threatened with torture and sentenced to prison for his teachings on the motions of the earth.

With the evolution of the church, things have changed.

For example, Lengwin said, the church has faced criticism from many of its own priests who have disagreed with various beliefs and practices. When that happens, there is discussion and clarification of beliefs, he said.

It doesn't always work.

"We've had people walk away and start churches of their own or join Lutheran or Presbyterian or other churches," he said. "The role of the church is to teach the truth as effectively as you can. There's no jail if you don't agree with us."

The Rev. Douglas Holben, executive presbyter for the Redstone Presbytery, which covers Westmoreland, Fayette, Somerset and Cambria counties, said the Presbyterian Church "as a community of faith would try to find a common ground" when confronted with differing opinions.

"We seek to find things to unite us," Holben said.

If faced with criticism, it's best to "find ways in which they find the church to be faithful to the Lord," he said.

Holben said the church has formed a Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity that includes people from different backgrounds and perspectives. Discussions among the group were productive, he said, adding that the members did not condemn or judge each other for their differences.

"They were able to say that even though we don't agree with your opinion, we can agree upon a common faith," he said.

Rabbi Sara Perman, leader of the Congregation Emanu-El Israel in Greensburg, explained that before the French Revolution emancipated Jews in Europe, those who spoke out against Judaism faced "cherem" or excommunication. Cherem resulted in both a spiritual and economic "death" because people who were excommunicated were unable to make a living in their community.

"Now, the reality is that if you are unsatisfied and speak out against Judaism, there isn't much we can do about it in this country," Perman said. "Within the general Jewish community, there isn't much you can do except not give them a forum or ignore them."

Haynes said the key to America's success in religious diversity is for people of all religions to understand that you "can't just tolerate" the fact that Muslims or Catholics or Protestants or Mormons or Jews have a right to be here. He said this country is a "level playing field" where everyone is free to practice their religion, but not to carry out extreme ideas that violate basic principles.

"I don't think there's anyplace on the planet with more religious diversity," Haynes said.

"This is a big challenge in 21st century America to make sure we can live with the deepest differences, and religious differences are the most difficult to navigate."

Robin Acton can be reached at racton@tribweb.com or 724-830-6295.

Comments 1 - 35 of 35 |

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1. Comment #40451 by ridelo on May 14, 2007 at 9:57 am

"We seek to find things to unite us," Holben said.


A few things that might unite theists and atheists alike:

° Apply the golden rule.
° Discuss on the basis of evidence.
° Accept that your understanding of the world can change.
° ...

Other Comments by ridelo

2. Comment #40454 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 9:59 am

 avatarThis is a big challenge in 21st century America to make sure we can live with the deepest differences, and religious differences are the most difficult to navigate."
______

D'oh. Is it because members of the same religious sect can't even get along with each other within the same sect let alone with members of a different sect? Religion: community division served willingly on a superstitious platter of seemingly different goodies--in reality--just the same bunch of turds.

Now, the reality is that if you are unsatisfied and speak out against Judaism, there isn't much we can do about it in this country," Perman said. "Within the general Jewish community, there isn't much you can do except not give them a forum or ignore them."
_______

Sounds like Perman regrets the move from the medieval era to the present?

Although ElBayly believes a death sentence is warranted for Hirsi Ali, he stressed that America is not the jurisdiction where such a crime should be punished. Instead, Hirsi Ali should be judged in a Muslim country after being given a trial, he added.

______

So it is OK that it's conveniently post enlightenment where Elbayly is living, but it is just honky dory that it is still the middle ages in Muslim countries? Full-blown jerk. How Reza Aslan can drum up enthusiasm regarding that Islam is approaching the Christian equivalent of enlightenment is beyond me.

Other Comments by Logicel

3. Comment #40462 by CJ on May 14, 2007 at 10:14 am

 avatar
"She has been identified as one who has defamed the faith. If you come into the faith, you must abide by the laws, and when you decide to defame it deliberately, the sentence is death," said ElBayly,

Change your mind we kill you! The Islamic meme strikes again.

Other Comments by CJ

4. Comment #40490 by posiedon on May 14, 2007 at 10:51 am

 avatar
If it is found that a person is mentally unstable, or a child or disabled, there should be no punishment," he said. "It's a very merciful religion if you try to understand it."

Absolutely priceless.

Other Comments by posiedon

5. Comment #40503 by JMaze on May 14, 2007 at 11:23 am

Though it is commendable that Hirsi Ali has fled islam and become an atheist there is another problem with her views of the world. She has traded a religion for an equally harmful political ideology. I mean that her fellowship with the American Enterprise Institute a conservative think tank that is in full support of the neo-conservative Straussian philosophy movement is suspect. The problem is that while she is being applauded by non-muslim people she is also helping fuel the political ideologies of the neo-conservatives by giving credence to the idea that all muslim nations are bad. While I think that islam is just as ridiculous as christianity, I also strongly disagree with the Straussian philosophy that religion is a necessary myth for the general public.

Other Comments by JMaze

6. Comment #40514 by Bonzai on May 14, 2007 at 11:39 am

Comment #40503 by JMaze

I don't know if she actually agrees with the AEI on many issues. She is for example, staunchly pro gay right which would make many "family value" conservatives uncomfortable. She seems to have very little to say about anything outside the lack of women right(and gay right)in Islam. Those are not rightwing agendas. I think she might just join them because they provide her a platform which she can't find elsewhere. In the Netherlands she started off as a socialist, she was only forced to join the conservatives because she found it impossible to adhere to the playbook of "respect" and political correctness of the "multi-cultural" left when it came to Islam.

I think her dilemma is pretty typical. When the left and the middle of the road liberals are not willing to speak out against Islam the neo cons and the right monopolize the discourse and often turn legitimate criticism of Islam into backlash politics and muslim bashing. I find it unfortunate and incredible that the cultural left are so reluctant to lend their voice against an ideology which is a travesty to everything the left stands for traditionally.

Other Comments by Bonzai

7. Comment #40527 by Henri Bergson on May 14, 2007 at 12:09 pm

 avatarStupidity?:

'"She has been identified as one who has defamed the faith. If you come into the faith, you must abide by the laws, and when you decide to defame it deliberately, the sentence is death," said ElBayly'
...

'"It's a very merciful religion if you try to understand it." said ElBayly'.

----

We should not respect or tolerate this faith. It is both absurdly stupid and increasingly lethal. Just as a soft approach would have been catastrophic against Nazism, so a soft approach to Islam will be catastrophic.

The weak should not be allowed to bring us all down.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

8. Comment #40530 by Friend Giskard on May 14, 2007 at 12:15 pm

 avatar'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.' (Bukhari vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57)
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html#009.084.057

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

9. Comment #40535 by NJS on May 14, 2007 at 12:30 pm

She didn't "come to Islam" - she was brainwashed without choice as a child just like all the others.

Evil rotten people.

Other Comments by NJS

10. Comment #40546 by peahix on May 14, 2007 at 1:00 pm

"One is free to choose whatever religion and body of truths one wants to believe," said the Rev. Ronald Lengwin, spokesman for the Roman Catholic Diocese.
*********

even if one body of "truths" contradicts another body of "truths?" are both bodies still "true?"

and if something really is objectively "true," what does it mean to "want to believe" it, assuming we're already convinced of its truth?

i'm always amazed at the abuse of the word "truth" coming from religionists.

Other Comments by peahix

11. Comment #40563 by JMaze on May 14, 2007 at 1:35 pm

Bonzai,

While I agree that it is a possible platform for her to launch off of I find that any association with AEI to be concerning. Hirsi Ali already possess a story in which she has launched off of but the AEI is more likely to use Miss Ali as a model for US intervention in the mid east.

I myself would like to see religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism fall from the norm of everyday life in societies. With that being said I am concerned because organizations like the AEI have become extremely influential in foreign policy making for the US with this administration which closely associates themselves as Christians. My concern is that the AEI will use Hirsi Ali (because she is unfamiliar with US politics & culture) to further their agenda for "American Interest". I have no reason to think that the use of force is the best way to remove Islam from society and this use of force does not improve the image of those who use it as having the better way of life. The AEI is not acting in the best interest of say the rest world but simply acting in the best interest of their version of what the US ought to be. I bring up the use of force because that has become part of this neo-conservative movements agenda.

The political left has not found a way to deal with the problems of Islam and remain "culturally sensitive". This is perhaps were Hirsi Ali would be much better off to venture on her own and clearly state why we should not associate with any religion and move beyond these outdated stories. In other words she would be better off to help create a new political movement that neither associates or fosters religion in a society.

Other Comments by JMaze

12. Comment #40574 by CJ on May 14, 2007 at 2:08 pm

 avatar9. Comment #40535 by NJS on May 14, 2007 at 12:30 pm

Evil Rotten People or Evil Rotten Religion?

Look beyond the meme, see the victims.

What chance does a Saudi child have?

Other Comments by CJ

13. Comment #40592 by Yorker on May 14, 2007 at 2:54 pm

10. Comment #40546 by peahix

"...Roman Catholic Diocese."

Are you sure you didn't mean Roman Catholic Disease? :)

Other Comments by Yorker

14. Comment #40608 by CJ22 on May 14, 2007 at 3:24 pm

 avatarThe self-righteous tone of that article made me want to puke. "yeah we're America, you can say or be anything here, and about time those filthy muslims realised that!". Trying being an atheist in the wrong states and see how far your freedom of speech will get you.

Other Comments by CJ22

15. Comment #40623 by MrEmpirical on May 14, 2007 at 3:41 pm

"If it is found that a person is mentally unstable, or a child or disabled, there should be no punishment," he said. "It's a very merciful religion if you try to understand it."


Sparing children, the mentally ill, and the disabled from the death penalty is not merciful, it's just! True mercy would be to spare competent adults from such a cruel punishment.

Other Comments by MrEmpirical

16. Comment #40645 by Bonzai on May 14, 2007 at 4:08 pm

cj22 wrote:

Trying being an atheist in the wrong states and see how far your freedom of speech will get you.


I don't know, but probably you won't be stoned to death or hanged for that.

I loath American evangelism as much as everyone here, but it's a complete disregard of reality to say that there is no difference between Islamism and Christian fundamentalism.

I remember a "culturally sensitive" PC friend of mine insisted that Christians were just as homophobic as muslims because they lobbied against same sex marriage. I was speechless. I am pretty sure that most gay people would think there is a difference in degree between denying same sex couples the right to marry and saying that they should be judicially executed, I am sure also most gay people would think that this difference in degree is an important one. Jerry Falwell seems like a moderate among the Islamists.

Other Comments by Bonzai

17. Comment #40652 by Stever on May 14, 2007 at 4:18 pm

"Although ElBayly believes a death sentence is warranted for Hirsi Ali, he stressed that America is not the jurisdiction where such a crime should be punished. Instead, Hirsi Ali should be judged in a Muslim country after being given a trial, he added."

Quite. Where the religious are in power, death awaits those who voice contrary ideas. The Inquisition raged viciously in Europe for hundreds of years because of religious power. The C of E looks meek and mild now, but should they ever get real power, I have no doubt we athiests (homosexuals, intellectuals, rationalists, etc) will be in mortal danger.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is having to live under heavy security, even in the US. She must be heard. By the way, one of the most moving books I've ever read is her 'Infidel'; go get it!

Other Comments by Stever

18. Comment #40660 by Bonzai on May 14, 2007 at 4:36 pm

The C of E looks meek and mild now, but should they ever get real power, I have no doubt we athiests (homosexuals, intellectuals, rationalists, etc) will be in mortal danger.


Do you seriously think the Church would restore its glory to the days of the inquisition? I can't see that happening unless all the progress made by mankind in the last couple of centuries is completely wiped out by some apocalyptic disaster and we have to restart from stratch at a point somehwere in the medieval age or before.

History is irreversible. Christianity has undergone a lot of changes since reformation and the enligthenment. Mainstream Christians nowadays no longer believe in spreading the religion by murder and creating Christian theocracies. You have small sects like the Dominionists and the God hate fags guy but these whackjobs are so far in the fringe that most Christians wouldn't even consider them coreligionists. Christianity has been tamed by secularism, it has been dragged along to civilization abeit unwillingly. This has not happened for Islam.

Other Comments by Bonzai

19. Comment #40662 by jonecc on May 14, 2007 at 4:39 pm

In the article, Zahida Chaudhary claims that the doctrine of the death penalty for apostasy is a radical doctrine, opposed by mainstream Islam. This is incorrect. Although it doesn't appear in the Koran, it occurs in several hadith (sayings or deeds attributed to Mohammed), for instance the quote by Imam Bukhari mentioned above (comment 40530).

There is a useful if short discussion of the subject if you search for apostasy on Wikipedia, but the best summary I've read is in Leaving Islam: apostates speak out by Ibn Warraq.

As JMaze says, The political left has not found a way to deal with the problems of Islam and remain "culturally sensitive".. If we don't, then racists and nationalists will.

Other Comments by jonecc

20. Comment #40666 by Bonzai on May 14, 2007 at 4:43 pm

Actually all four schools of Islamic jurispudence of Sunni Islam agree that apostates should be executed. It is not a fringe opinion.

Other Comments by Bonzai

21. Comment #40684 by dancingthemantaray on May 14, 2007 at 5:03 pm

"The Prophet Mohammed was a peacemaker and a role model for humanity," she said. "My understanding is that he was a peaceful person who believed that religion was a choice. He tried to teach people and bring them into it, not punish them."

Is that the same mohammed who invented islam and then set about conquering all the land he could get his grubby little mitts on then?

Other Comments by dancingthemantaray

22. Comment #40690 by jonecc on May 14, 2007 at 5:18 pm

As Bonzai says, plus Shi'a opinion is with the Sunni. There are some dissenting voices, arguing for instance that the Bukhari text is a forgery, but they are a minority, and viewed with suspicion by the mainstream.

Other Comments by jonecc

23. Comment #40694 by BocoDragon on May 14, 2007 at 5:38 pm

""The Prophet Mohammed was a peacemaker and a role model for humanity," she said. "My understanding is that he was a peaceful person who believed that religion was a choice. He tried to teach people and bring them into it, not punish them."

Is that the same Mohammad who invented islam and then set about conquering all the land he could get his grubby little mitts on then?""



I was doing a lot of historical research recently, and I was absolutely shocked by the true story of Mohammad. If you don't read it just right, with heavy believer bias, it kinda looks like the story of a fanatic who started angrily preaching his beliefs, and gaining a few local believers. When he was "persecuted" by the tired polytheists of the day, he used it as an excuse to fight them. (they eventually gave in: Mecca is the holy city because of a bizarre compromise with the Meccans, who just gave into his demands after awhile). In the momentum the conquering hordes just spread outward....

It was a military theocracy that conquered much of the world, and in the lands they took, people continue to believe this stuff until today.....

It would really be no different from the god-king cult of the pharohs... patrarchial brainwashing to its core, being preserved until now.

Of course, modern peaceful Muslims will tell you all about how Mohommad is peaceful. That's the most Orwellian concept possible: He was a warlord. But you know religion... if you're nice, then your holy man was nice too...

Other Comments by BocoDragon

24. Comment #40700 by MelM on May 14, 2007 at 5:58 pm

A reality oriented independent minded Ayaan Hirsi Ali is thought worthy of a death sentence by a pathetic dogmatist. A moral inversion? I think so!

Other Comments by MelM

25. Comment #40704 by Russell Blackford on May 14, 2007 at 6:24 pm

The only thing that surprises me is that Haynes is surprised. So many well-intentioned liberal thinkers just don't (easily) get how totalitarian and intolerant religion is at its base, and how much this still permeates Islam, which has never had its Reformation, let alone its struggle to accommodate itself to modernity.

Oh well, I guess he "gets it" now. But there's still this naive, touchy-feely view around that religion is something nice - if not actually true - so Islam must be nice, as well, give or take a crazy terrorist here or there who surely isn't a "real" Muslim.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

26. Comment #40718 by BocoDragon on May 14, 2007 at 7:14 pm

Russell- I agree. My atheistic sentiments were that all religions are equally nutty at base, but my liberalism taught me that they all equally inspire people to be good in our times.

I was wrong.

Frankly, the crusades/Inquisition are a certain perversion of Jesus, long after his time. He was, at worst, some sort of radical jewish rabbi, and he really did desire a universal liberal god... But modern terrorism isn't a "fundamentalist corruption" of Islam at all... it's a pretty logical extension of a strict world kingdom of God, urged through the sword, and now held back by western powers. (the Sunni/Shia division is based on who is to be the rightful king of Islam.. of all things!)

I know that's Sam Harris all over again, but it's all hearsay until you look into the history of Islam and the Quran yourself. It's very much true.

Interestingly, after my historical research, I debated a few Muslims online. I was quite polite, but outlining the very clear possibility that the roots of Islam could have been a very disturbing localized religious skirmish/"battle for power" that exploded.

They spoke about me having a wrong view, "from prejudice".. Obviously, I had just not read enough information on Islam! (as they interpreted it.. as western Muslims, no doubt)

I was an innocent Muslim-friendly liberal before I read history, which brought to light many concerns with Islam, and NOW I'm misinformed and prejudiced? Very interesting, that.

Other Comments by BocoDragon

27. Comment #40735 by Stublore on May 14, 2007 at 8:31 pm

 avatar"She has been identified as one who has defamed the faith. If you come into the faith, you must abide by the laws, and when you decide to defame it deliberately, the sentence is death," said ElBayly, who came to the U.S. from Egypt in 1976.

"If it is found that a person is mentally unstable, or a child or disabled, there should be no punishment," he said. "It's a very merciful religion if you try to understand it."

That just made me laugh!
Typical response to criticism of islam :(
islam means submission, not peace, and ofc if you disagree, you get submitted for a coffin.

"The Prophet Mohammed was a peacemaker and a role model for humanity," she said. "My understanding is that he was a peaceful person who believed that religion was a choice. He tried to teach people and bring them into it, not punish them."

Sure, he was peaceful when he had no power, but once he got the upper hand all bets were off!

And iirc don't later commands take precedence over earlier ones if there is a conflict? So if he says be peaceful at the start and later says kill all the unbelievers, then the kill all the unbelievers is the proper thing to do?

Other Comments by Stublore

28. Comment #40739 by chionactis on May 14, 2007 at 9:00 pm

 avatarI know other posters have commented on this too, but I just had to add my 2 cents, because I find it so disgusting and stupid.

"If it is found that a person is mentally unstable, or a child or disabled, there should be no punishment," he said. "It's a very merciful religion if you try to understand it."


There is NOTHING merciful about putting someone to death, no matter what their mental state is, simply because they voice their disagreement with your religion.

Other Comments by chionactis

29. Comment #40798 by NJS on May 15, 2007 at 2:40 am

Comment # 40574 by CJ

Evil Rotten People or Evil Rotten Religion?

Look beyond the meme, see the victims.

What chance does a Saudi child have?


Interesting point.

I'm very willing to be harsh with theists who can't see how irrational thay are but I suppose since we all realise the way indoctrination takes place that as you suggest "its not their fault".

However part of me does think that people have the chance as I did to use reason to break free of the meme (I was raised catholic) as did Ayaan Ali. Of course once again I realise its easier to do that in the UK than is Saudi Arabia so I think I would have a modicum of "symapthy" for ordinary muslims or other theists who find it hard.

However I think a Muslim cleric who lives in the US and calls for people to be killed in this way crosses the line from a simple meme victim and I have no problem describing him as an evil person who follows an evil religion.

Other Comments by NJS

30. Comment #40808 by Luthien on May 15, 2007 at 3:07 am

 avatarTo all of you who seem to have a problem with AEI (yes, that old chestnut gets trawled out every time she gets a mention on this site) let me assure you that you have nothing to worry about.

Hirsi Ali will speak her mind, and she will continue to speak her mind. If they try to use her to further some "cause" of their own is will spectacularly backfire. She puts great thought into her opinions, but none into her position or status, indeed not even her personal safety before she speaks her mind (she deals with the consequences, she just doesn't regulate her opinions based on fear of them). This amazing woman is more than equal to the AEI, as I am sure time will tell.

Other Comments by Luthien

31. Comment #40834 by CJ on May 15, 2007 at 4:34 am

 avatar29. Comment #40798 by NJS on May 15, 2007 at 2:40 am

However I think a Muslim cleric who lives in the US and calls for people to be killed in this way crosses the line from a simple meme victim and I have no problem describing him as an evil person who follows an evil religion.


NJS, I agree completely that the line must be drawn at the threat of violence.

My line of thought follows the demonising potential of the words "evil person who follows an evil religion." that could just as well be NAZI rhetoric about the Jews. I just don't think it moves things on.

There are undoubtedly psychopathic people. They will be born randomly all across the world into all cultures. Some of these people are born leaders e.g. Hitler and Stalin. A psychopath will exploit the culture into which they born. The worst possible combination is a charismatic, psychopathic and delusional personality that founds a religion. But all those normal people who grow up in the subsequent culture are victims; they are not evil, just unlucky. Don't get me wrong, when I watch replays of the 9/11 Islamic atrocity I feel hate and the desire for revenge. But then I force myself to remember the few Muslims I have met and remember they were all hardworking peaceful people trying to get along in the world just like me and they didn't and wouldn't dream of hurting anybody. To treat them as an "evil person who follows an evil religion." would by wrong.

Other Comments by CJ

32. Comment #40836 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 15, 2007 at 4:38 am

 avatar30. Comment #40808 by Luthien on May 15, 2007 at 3:07 am

To all of you who seem to have a problem with AEI (yes, that old chestnut gets trawled out every time she gets a mention on this site) let me assure you that you have nothing to worry about.


After some concerns, I came to the exact same conclusion. She will tear these guys a new one if they try it. Anyone who endures what she has had to suffer, and comes out of it as articulate, balanced and sane, is well able for the neo-con spin brigade.

In fact I HOPE they try it just so she slaps them silly.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

33. Comment #41245 by mbcraig11 on May 15, 2007 at 5:11 pm

Although ElBayly believes a death sentence is warranted for Hirsi Ali, he stressed that America is not the jurisdiction where such a crime should be punished. Instead, Hirsi Ali should be judged in a Muslim country after being given a trial, he added.

"If it is found that a person is mentally unstable, or a child or disabled, there should be no punishment," he said. "It's a very merciful religion if you try to understand it."

PRICELESS

Other Comments by mbcraig11

34. Comment #41246 by mbcraig11 on May 15, 2007 at 5:12 pm

I also love the girl who said my understanding of the Prophet Muhammed........

well maybe you check YOUR understanding against some of the many historical accounts of the life of Muhammed and see what they have to say

Other Comments by mbcraig11

35. Comment #41378 by Tintern on May 16, 2007 at 3:29 am

"ElBayly believes a death sentence is warranted for Hirsi Ali,"
just to clarify - this guy has enjoyed western democratic freedom since at least 1976, and he is a President. So when he comes out with wishing death upon a woman for escaping to freedom herself, his objections are listened to and printed?

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