1. Comment #41698 by weavehole on May 16, 2007 at 3:49 pm

I would like to ask Richard: Just what exactly do you have against mid-nineties alternative rock quartet Gene and what evidence do you have to suggest they were anything other than nice, generous young boys? Hmm? Tsk and indeed, tut.

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2. Comment #41722 by Geoff on May 16, 2007 at 5:15 pm

Why feature The Selfish Gene? It's more than 30 years old now, surely all the sensible questions have been asked and answered by now?

I've heard that there's a more recent RD book around...

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3. Comment #41728 by Rationalist on May 16, 2007 at 5:56 pm

It's wonderful to talk about science. I love the God Delusion, wished I had read it 30 years ago, but it's not really a science book. The selfish Gene is about science, biology specifically, and allows the reader to explore how science works and how a biologist thinks. Yes it's good to decry the irrational and arbitrary thought process that is religion, but then go positive and explore the rational and evidential mindset that is science

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4. Comment #41731 by cassdenata on May 16, 2007 at 6:06 pm

I read the god delusion and it was an interesting read. I read the Selfish Gene and it completely transformed the way I look at the world and reinvigorated my interest in biological sciences.

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5. Comment #41734 by GodlessHeathen on May 16, 2007 at 6:30 pm

"The Selfish Gene" is the book that brought me real understanding of evolution. I don't at all mind seeing it get real attention - especially now what with "ID" trying to obfuscate the issue.
TGD is only one part of the set, a fresh look at the sciences is another part. We can't let any of it be neglected. =^.^=

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6. Comment #41735 by phasmagigas on May 16, 2007 at 6:35 pm

I way prefer to listen to RD talking genes and evolution as questions on the GD tend to be attacking and hes on the defensive whereas with his core subject he can enthuse and illuminate freely as questions are going to be less aggressive (if atall). Questions on evo tend be on the whole less ridiculous as you have to know something to ask a half decent question (any old nonesense can pose as a question relating to god)unless you start talking about bananas and peanut butter of course

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7. Comment #41739 by pewkatchoo on May 16, 2007 at 7:15 pm

For me Unweaving the Rainbow is a fabulous book. I am reading it at the moment and it has totally captivated me. It is almost lyrical.

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8. Comment #41742 by spikie on May 16, 2007 at 7:48 pm

I think all of Dawkins books are great,I first started reading RD books about ten years ago when i read the selfish gene and i haven't looked back.I think this book made a bigger impact on me than any other book,after I finished reading it i read it again such was my amazement of this new way of thinking .Since then I have read all His books and enjoyed every one of them.I also think the Ancestors Tale is a wonderful book and also a good reference book.

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9. Comment #41744 by USA_Limey on May 16, 2007 at 7:59 pm

Hitch does a number on Falwell:


http://kevinmccullough.townhall.com/g/9764c788-1dcb-4aff-a1aa-46266d27eddc

Enjoy!

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10. Comment #41752 by spikie on May 16, 2007 at 8:11 pm

The Extended Phenotype is also a brilliant book but I think probably the hardest read due to the technical jargon.Reading the other books first helped because he touches on the subject in some of them.

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11. Comment #41753 by spikie on May 16, 2007 at 8:17 pm

http://kevinmccullough.townhall.com/g/9764c788-1dcb-4aff-a1aa-46266d27eddc I don't think George W. will be inviting him to the white house any time soon LOL.

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12. Comment #41757 by pwagner on May 16, 2007 at 8:46 pm

Response to;
Comment #41744 by USA_Limey on May 16, 2007 at 7:59 pm

It always sounds a little callous talking in this manner about a dead guy, but I had to laugh when he said that he doubted that Falwell ever really read the bible or any long book for that matter. :-) haha

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13. Comment #41759 by mmurray on May 16, 2007 at 9:47 pm

Interesting to see McCullough on that page complain about Hitchen not giving a source for some quote of Falwell's about the anti-christ being here already and jewish. 30 seconds googling with "falwell anti-christ jewish" finds lots of links about it.

Michael

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14. Comment #41767 by CDG on May 16, 2007 at 10:42 pm

I have read The Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable and the The God Delusion. I have not read The Selfish Gene, but I think my question may still be pertinent.

As a father of 3 children, 8,7, and 4 I cannot bring myself to explain the cold hard facts about the world in which they have found themselves. Just as I tell them that Santa brought the gifts, I also tell them that there is a God and a heaven. I feel that children are better off being lied to at a young age regarding these issues of wonderment. We do not pray, or discuss particular religions, only the overall idea that mommy , daddy and they will be together always. I fear what would happen to them without that false bravado.

Do you agree with this approach? If not, what approach would you advocate?

I have bought and watched the DVD "Growing Up in the Universe". Brilliant! But not for 4-6 year olds. They still want to know what happens to us when we die. And telling them nothing at that age does not seem like a good idea.

Millions of parents need direction on this subject matter. "Give me the child until 7 and I will give you the man". Religion has known and exploited this for hundreds of years. That is how it has manifested.

Let us not give them that ground anymore! Professor Dawkins, please help.

Chris

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15. Comment #41768 by plexer on May 16, 2007 at 11:20 pm

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

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16. Comment #41772 by elfstoned on May 16, 2007 at 11:37 pm

CDG, comment 41767

I teach at elementary school and I can tell you that children do not appreciate being lied to. I think we are underestimating and doing them a disservice by any kind of falsehood we make them believe. What is so "cold" and "hard" about the fact that Santa does not exist but it's mom and dad who love them and buy them presents? I'm not saying that we should remove fantasy elements from our kids' lives, I'm just saying that we would never tell them to read Harry Potter as a history book.

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17. Comment #41773 by bruno_burned on May 16, 2007 at 11:45 pm

CDG, I agree that a scientific explanation of evolution can be a little bland for kids.

But... I think evolution can be wordsmithed into an absolutely beautiful, life changing, and inspiring phenomena. And something very palatable for kids.

Dawkins does an amazing job of this in Unweaving the Rainbow - I highly suggest it.

This would be a good forum post! "How to wordsmith genes and evolution for children".

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18. Comment #41776 by alovrin on May 16, 2007 at 11:58 pm

I have a question for Richard nothing to do with his books.
I hear that there is a new documentary due out soon.
Where Hopefully RD takes on some of the New Age phonies who, so far have got off very lightly, as the focus(quite rightly) so far has been on the big three Abrahamic religions.

When is it due out?

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19. Comment #41780 by mmurray on May 17, 2007 at 1:20 am

As a father of 3 children, 8,7, and 4 I cannot bring myself to explain the cold hard facts about the world in which they have found themselves.

I have two of my own. While I lied a bit (not very convincingly!) about Santa Claus until they asked me about it directly I didn't lie about the big things. When they asked me about death I told them what I thought. Thanks to science (and no thanks to religion) you can temper it a bit by saying it isn't likely to happen to them for a long time or yourself (hopefully!) without lying. Of course some children do get sick and die young. I am glad to have been spared explaining to any of mine that they were going to die. That would be tough as would dealing with a parent's death.

Luckily I live in reasonably secular Australia and the kids are not going to come up against religious nuts until they are old enough to know stupidity when they see and hear it. So I didn't talk about god as I don't regard it as important. They didn't ask me about god until the oldest went to school and came home and said `who is this gwod person'! Not a typo -- he misheard. I told him what I thought and he agreed it was a dumb idea.

Don't forget sex, aids, hiv, pregnancy etc unless their school is good at this kind of stuff.

Michael

PS You might want to post this question in the Forums where you are more likely to get feedback.

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20. Comment #41786 by ridelo on May 17, 2007 at 2:12 am

14. CDG

But not for 4-6 year olds. They still want to know what happens to us when we die. And telling them nothing at that age does not seem like a good idea.

I suppose you could say: "Death is like a dreamless sleep and were you ever bored or unhappy while you slept?" A lot better than lying about heaven and hell but maybe too alluring for a depressed growing up. It's impossible to take every sting out of life.
I remember that on a walk with my grandson we found a dead mouse and he was very interested in it. I realised that for a child "being dead" could easily be linked to something painful. It's important that they see that dying can be painful but not being dead.

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21. Comment #41787 by David Williams on May 17, 2007 at 2:28 am

When my kids were born I had been an agnostic and then Atheist long before they were conceived, and my wife had as much interest in religion as she had in room temperature super conductors (i.e. none) so the concept or idea of a god never became part of our lives and their developing minds were never tarnished by that nonsense. I honestly don't recall ever discussing what happened after you died with them as kids, as they got older whenever it was discussed it was incredulous to them that anyone would believe such inane believes as a life after death. Yep, they had Santa, the Tooth Fairy, Captain Kirk and John Carter of Mars but they knew pretty early on these were just great stories - they could tell the difference, it is unfortunate christians just don't get it, they just can't tell the difference between fact and fantasy. I am also fortunate indeed to live in Australia but alas we still have our CC's (christian cranks).

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22. Comment #41790 by mmurray on May 17, 2007 at 3:35 am

It's important that they see that dying can be painful but not being dead.

Sure you can convince them that it won't be painful but they are also aware of the separation. They fear parents dying and not being with them.

Michael

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23. Comment #41803 by ridelo on May 17, 2007 at 4:58 am

Sure you can convince them that it won't be painful but they are also aware of the separation. They fear parents dying and not being with them.

Sure! Forgot to mention that. The pain is for the survivors. Also the luck of being alive.

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24. Comment #41805 by I'mNotAlone on May 17, 2007 at 5:04 am

We've got two kids of 4 and 2. We've also got a 16 year old cat and my wife has grandparents of 90 and 87. So I guess the issue of death will come up at some point soon. I'd never thought about how I was going to address it until I read this thread. I think I want to just tell them the truth, but like CDG I worry about how they will deal with it. I might just go with the agnostic line - I dont know where we go when we die - which I guess at the end of the day IS true.
To return to the original point of this thread, having told all my friends about how much I was enjoying TGD, they have bought me The Dawkins Delusion and The Selfish Gene. I cant decide which I should read first. TDD is a small book so I could get it out of the way, but I fear that it will fog my mind up! TSG looks interesting, but I am no scientist and think that I need to be in an inquisitive frame of mind before I take it on.
Does anyone have any recommendations?

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25. Comment #41806 by TIKI AL on May 17, 2007 at 5:10 am

I was just floating in the pool here in Tempe, Arizona when a shooting star caught my eye. I looked up and thought I saw a pallored fat man in an ascension robe fly by.

Can joy induce hallucinations?

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26. Comment #41807 by Mark R on May 17, 2007 at 5:23 am

I think we need to open this up in a forum for sure. We have 4 children at home and one of the greatest approaches is just to let them see nature for its self and the right questions will come from them allowing you to explain the right answers. I have purchased the Life Series from the BBC with David Attenborough and found that the first one "The Trials of Life" is a wonderful way for children to see what happens in life. Along with seeing the cold hard facts of natural selection you see the true beauty of life as well.
Anyone start this in a forum yet?

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27. Comment #41808 by phasmagigas on May 17, 2007 at 5:23 am

ImNotAlone.

Ive not read the DD but i have read the selfish gene, you dont need to be a scientist to read the selfish gene, i suggest you read the first few pages, see if it grabs you. I can guarantee that if you read that book it will make you think about many things a little (or a lot) differently. As to the DD clouding your mind, well thats not going to happen, the more you read the less clouded your mind will be as if something is nonesense (im not saying that about the DD as ive never read it) you should be able to see it as such and discard it mentally anyway.

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28. Comment #41811 by phasmagigas on May 17, 2007 at 5:33 am

Mark R.

the trials of life is excellent, and yes there are some tough scenes to watch but thats good as it does 'raise conciousness'. I remember very firmly watching the chimps hunting and learnt so many things on so many levels although I feel there are children who i wouldnt like to see the colubus kill, well not until they are a bit older.

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29. Comment #41816 by Yorker on May 17, 2007 at 6:07 am

14. Comment #41767 by CDG

That's a question most parents have struggled with I expect, and like most, I fell into the Santa trap and regret it. Children trust their parents and believe what they're told, it's never a good idea to lie to them, even for the best of reasons. My advice is to tell the truth in a positive way, e.g. we live and we die and death is the end, but that's a good reason to enjoy and make the most of life. Never worry about when to tell kids things, when they're old enough to ask the question, they're old enough to be told the truth. I never once mentioned the concept of god to my kids, but of course they discovered it themselves because schools in the UK still make the mistake of forcing it upon them. It didn't harm them though, I told the truth about my non-belief when asked and they seemed pleased, it hadn't made much sense to them either.

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30. Comment #41821 by Mark R on May 17, 2007 at 6:22 am

One great example i love telling people of how wonderful life is, is the way Richard explains how lucky we are to even be born. 1,000,000 sperm and one egg ...pretty good from the beginning that we made this feat. As well we are lucky to die since you can only die if you have been born.

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31. Comment #41829 by mmurray on May 17, 2007 at 6:38 am

Lets move the `what do you tell your children' discussion over to here

http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=225956#225956

Michael

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32. Comment #41835 by Fedler on May 17, 2007 at 6:52 am

Re: 14. Comment #41767 by CDG

My 6-year old daughter asked me the other day where people come from. After a very short explanation of how she came from my wife and I, I came from my parents, they came from their parents, etc. she extrapolated back on her own and asked "Who made God?" I couldn't have scripted it any better. I provided no prodding or leading explanations, but she intuitively picked up on the infinite regress issue when it comes to the God concept. She seemed to know that the 'God' explanation begged further questions.

I'm an atheist but my wife is still a believer, so I try not to preach atheism to my daughter, but if given the honest answers (free of religious overtones) I'm confident that my daughter will reach her own conclusions without feeling despair or feeling crushed. Kids are enormously smart and resilient. I would suspect yours are, too.

In terms of asking what happens when we die, I admit I just told her "I don't know" (It was right before bedtime and she gets scared pretty easily. Although I should add the disclaimer that my daughter is pretty thin-skinned when it comes to getting scared. She says Peter Pan is her favorite scary movie, so talking about corpses right before bed is generally not a good idea. However that's a conversation I hope to expand on this weekend with her).

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33. Comment #41838 by Fedler on May 17, 2007 at 7:00 am

Well done, Michael!

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34. Comment #41842 by Mark R on May 17, 2007 at 7:15 am

I first read Stephen Hawkings "Universe in a nut shell" to start discovering more about our universe and life and quite enjoyed it. I went back to the book store to find another of his books when stumbled across the Selfish Gene which maube was due to a similarity between the last names. The back covers words caught my attention and since that time I have discovered so much. Dawkins has opened my eyes like no one else could. The Selfish Gene is not like the God Delusion but to me even more powerful. The selfish gene has lead me to start a local humanist group and start a community science fair and many other things to bring attention to the understanding of why we are really here.

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35. Comment #41848 by Keinen_Gott on May 17, 2007 at 7:33 am

My favorite Richard Dawkin's book is The Ancestors Tale. It took me the longest to read.

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36. Comment #41861 by Mark R on May 17, 2007 at 8:07 am

I have Ancestors Tale on the shelf ready to read. Climbing Mount Improbable was also great. Back to Selfish Gene I wrote a small piece on the affects of a family with kids from different parents and the affects of how more attached we are to children of our own genes when other children in the immediate family have different genes for your spouse who's children are from a previous marriage.

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37. Comment #41880 by CDG on May 17, 2007 at 8:51 am

Thank you for all your comments. Ofcourse life can be tricky. I was pelted with God and Death questions by my children 2 years ago as their mother and I were getting a divorce. I was just too weak to tell them the truth about God and Death, "oh and by the way, don't count on anything in this life either." Now I am in a pickle.

And their mother is a believer. We were both so concerned that the other would teach their beliefs to the children that we actually had it written in the divorce decree that the Father would not espouse his Atheistic beliefs, and the Mother would not teach them her Christian beliefs (albeit no way to enforce in any case) We have both followed through to date. I cannot rock this boat yet because if I did- I fear she would start to indoctrinate them in the myth that Jesus saves. And if she did, she knows then I will spell it out for them in no uncertain terms that Jesus not only doesn't save-its just a story like Peter Pan. I think its better for me to wait. The longer I can keep Jesus out of their lives the better. What a mess.

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38. Comment #41951 by bluebird on May 17, 2007 at 11:00 am

Just a few days ago our son researched parts of the 'Selfish Gene' for a biology paper. He found it fascinating; thanks RD!!

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39. Comment #42658 by frankinstein on May 19, 2007 at 1:50 am

plexer

The Egg.the creature that layed the egg was one mutation away from a chicken.

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