1. Comment #43671 by arildno on May 22, 2007 at 8:52 am

"Mr Jantos and co-author Professor Hosen Kiat, from the University of NSW, said the Bible offered several references to making a sick person well and Jesus himself was known for his personal practice of prayer and for his miraculous healings."


How could this ever pass as science??


That Medical Journal of Australia allows such unscientific nonsense to be published means that M.J.o.A no longer can be regarded as a scientific journal.

Other Comments by arildno

2. Comment #43672 by mnlandon on May 22, 2007 at 8:53 am

Wasn't this tripe disproved some time ago??? Is Australia a few years behind the times??

Other Comments by mnlandon

3. Comment #43673 by Duff on May 22, 2007 at 8:57 am

There are three - or more - ways prayers help a person who is sick:
1. Placebo effect
2. Placebo effect
3. Placebo effect
Unless of course the person is suffering from a severed limb, in which case all the prayers from all the believers in the world are not enough to get God to pay attention.

Other Comments by Duff

4. Comment #43674 by Awl on May 22, 2007 at 8:58 am

It passes as science because there is a natural phenomenom to be explored and understood. People who pray are healthier: Why? The first two answers to this question given in the article seem to cover it nicely and so perhaps we all ought to meditate for the health benefits.

The researchers had to mention the "god effect" simply because it is the favourite hypothesis of the people being investigated. A study of prayer would be incomplete without bringing god up. It doesn't mean that anyone with any scientific credibility will take the suggestion seriously of course.

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5. Comment #43675 by Jeff_Dee on May 22, 2007 at 9:11 am

"COMMUNICATING with God or other spirits can improve your physical health, Australian researchers suggest."

Wouldn't these researchers FIRST have to establish that there are such things as "spirits" to "communicate with"?

Until then, the most they can reasonably suggest is that "thinking happy thoughts at one's imaginary friends" can improve your physical health.

One wonders what the cost might be to one's *mental* health, though.

Other Comments by Jeff_Dee

6. Comment #43676 by maton100 on May 22, 2007 at 9:15 am

One can meditate without goblins, trolls and the holy spirit. Deep breathing exercises without the rapture.

Other Comments by maton100

7. Comment #43677 by A.Lex on May 22, 2007 at 9:17 am

To run a really unbiased experiment the "researchers" should sample at least two praying populations: atheists and xtians ;>)

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8. Comment #43680 by boozec on May 22, 2007 at 9:28 am

I hate to ask again... but how do you sumbit articles? I have plenty in mind that I've come across....

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9. Comment #43681 by bhima on May 22, 2007 at 9:29 am

They should have studied 3 groups....Christians that pray to gawd, Buddhists that meditate and don't believe in a personal god, and the control group: people who don't pray or get prayed for.

Other Comments by bhima

10. Comment #43682 by Proud Okie Atheist on May 22, 2007 at 9:30 am

The article states: "For instance, in a study of heart patients, those who were being prayed for by others made significantly better health improvements than those who were not prayed for."

This has been debunked more than once, using accepted scientific standards. In fact, I read these studies on this very website, so a quick search of 'heart patients' and 'prayer' should turn them up quickly.

I recently had some pretty nasty surgery myself. when I checked into the hospital, they asked me my religious preference. My emphatic 'NONE' answer brought a double-take. Subsequently, my doctors were amazed at how quickly I was healing. "Way ahead of schedule" was how it was put to me. All because I actively participated in my recovery. Also, throughout my life I have been incredibly healthy, although I admit I do nothing via diet and exercise to maintain my health. The only on-going issue I have is with my thyroid, and daily medication takes care of that.

Praying is what one does when one doesn't want to take an active role in something. NFLP = Nothing Fails Like Prayer.

Other Comments by Proud Okie Atheist

11. Comment #43683 by John P on May 22, 2007 at 9:32 am

One has to ask: Even if this is true, that prayer has positive health benefits, why would anyone want to go through all the mental gymnastics necessary to delude oneself, without being conscious of the delusion, of the truth of a patent lie, i.e. the existence of the god you are praying to?

The mind boggles.

Other Comments by John P

12. Comment #43693 by Mr. Mark on May 22, 2007 at 10:04 am

"They quoted a chronically-ill elderly woman who believed God took her pain away every time she prayed."


One wonders why god didn't just take away her chronic illness and have done with it.

I guess god just can't get past the servitude crap. He'll take your pain away, but you've got to grovel to him about it a couple of times a day.

Mindless pap.

Other Comments by Mr. Mark

13. Comment #43697 by Thrall on May 22, 2007 at 10:13 am

"Praying could also have a placebo effect on health. For instance, in a study of heart patients, those who were being prayed for by others made significantly better health improvements than those who were not prayed for."

What? The last large study showed that those who were prayed for actually did worse. Why isn't this brought up?

Falwell "prayed" a lot, good thing his bathroom's tile floor was there to catch him from jesus' excellent work "healing his heart" a week back. His heart should have been in tip top shape.

Other Comments by Thrall

14. Comment #43701 by thirdchimpanzee on May 22, 2007 at 10:20 am

Interesting that the other posting from Australia this morning (regarding a review of the recent showing in Oz of the "The Root of All Evil) claimed there were more Jedis than atheists, and this paper cited a figure of 74% of Australians believing in a higher power.

Since my advanced math leads me to conclude that 26% of Australians are therefore atheist (in all but name) - just how many Jedi are there down under?

Other Comments by thirdchimpanzee

15. Comment #43730 by konquererz on May 22, 2007 at 11:17 am

They article fails to contemplate the fact that there are tons of studies with other religions and beliefs, especially eastern religions, in which their ceremonies have the same effect. You know, meditation has long been shown to have positive effects, even not "religious" meditation. Prayer has not been shown to be more beneficial than any other types of "prayer" or meditation that are out there. If anything, those studies show the sameness of religions, their beliefs, and their effect on people. If you only need to do something like prayer or meditation to be healthier, then you can't say that one is real and the others aren't. But you can say they are all fake and rely on a persons own desire to feel better, the placebo effect.

Other Comments by konquererz

16. Comment #43739 by Oppomystic on May 22, 2007 at 11:59 am

Of course prayer or chant is helpful. If you're lying in a bed sick it is far more supportive for your family to say positive things then to stand there and tell you to "die already" or that "you're an asshole."

Maybe they should do an alternate study that shows people die faster or get sicker if they are berated and insulted...

I get the impression that religious folk think that atheists stand over their sick loved ones with blank stares and no kind words. What else could a non-believer provide? Probably not what they are insinuating, but I still want to smack these people with a rolled-up magazine.

Still wondering why no one is praying for amputees to grow new limbs! C'mon, all you have to do is believe! Make it happen! Or stick to healing "pain" and other non-testable, non-miraculous things...

Other Comments by Oppomystic

17. Comment #43743 by stephenray on May 22, 2007 at 12:10 pm

Seriously, what is the point? Any newspaper prepared to run a story beginning:
"COMMUNICATING with God or other spirits can improve your physical health, Australian researchers suggest."
is just slop. Researchers 'suggest'. That's not their job. Researchers are to conclude, or to announce a lack of conclusion. Theoreticians 'suggest'. And the headline - no question or query there, just an assertion. Bleacchh.

Other Comments by stephenray

18. Comment #43750 by scottishgeologist on May 22, 2007 at 12:34 pm

All this "prayer" BS reminds me of that other BS connected with miracles which is equally stupid. Concerning the assassination attempt on the Pope John Paul II, Dawkins himself said:

"He suffered an assassination attempt in Rome and attributed his survival to the intervention of Our Lady of Fatima. A maternal hand guided the bullet. One cannot help wondering why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether."

Maybe those praying for him werent praying hard enough - maybe it wasnt "fervent" enough. You know , a bit more oomph, a bit more fervency, a bit more shreiking and pleading and hey, Fatima might have been able to make the bullet miss altogether. Or caused the gun to jam. That would have been neat. Hey, maybe that HAS happened, dozens of times - dozens of would be Popeicides averted by jammed guns brought about by "much fervent" prayer. Hah! Go on you godless atheists, prove otherwise!! Hah!

Prayer isnt just BS, its testable BS. And in every PROPER test ever done it fails. Fails every time.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

19. Comment #43756 by BillySands on May 22, 2007 at 1:02 pm

The researchers warned that while this area was often dismissed as being beyond the reach of science, it should not be underestimated.

Yeah, because amputees growing new limbs isn't quantifyable

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20. Comment #43757 by squinky on May 22, 2007 at 1:03 pm

"Irrespective of whether scientists seek to attribute the benefits of prayer to the relaxation response, placebo or positive emotions, the most common reason people turn to prayer is their belief in a divine being that transcends the natural universe and hears and responds to prayer."

FINE--henceforth, all religious people can no longer be admitted to a hospital or seen by a physician. If praying can heal your body then turn left at the hospital and right into the church/mosque/synagogue parking lot. You have no need of the practitioners of science (doctors/
medical researchers/pharmaceutical companies) because the big man upstairs will fix your problems. Got it?

Throw your prescriptions away!
Stop reflecting and start genuflecting!
If your heart is spent, you'd better repent!
No more exercise, more exorcise!
Only prayer can make your body repair!
You got cancer? God's the answer!
See a priest before you're deceased!
Have faith in God to fix your bod!

(You guys try it, it's fun and the catharsis is scientifically proven to improve your health.)

Other Comments by squinky

21. Comment #43758 by Humble Pie on May 22, 2007 at 1:08 pm

I agree with you, Stephen (and others). This article is dire beyond belief.

"COMMUNICATING with God or other spirits can improve your physical health, Australian researchers suggest." So they exist, then? Thanks for clearing that one up.

"A new report has reviewed controversial scientific evidence that religious or spiritual prayer can boost a believer's emotional and physical wellbeing." Oh, it's reviewed it, has it? Well, goody!

"Mr Jantos and co-author Professor Hosen Kiat, from the University of NSW, said the Bible offered several references to making a sick person well..." Gosh! I never knew that before! "...and Jesus himself was known for his personal practice of prayer and for his miraculous healings." His "personal practice of prayer", eh? Oh, so he went in for that, did he? Well, well. You learn something every day. And he had a line in miraculous healings too? My my! And you tell me he was "known" for this, was he? Well, you are an educator and no mistake.

I mean, my Imaginary Deity! The 74% of Australians who believe in a "higher power" sure know their bible, don't they?

"The researchers warned that while this area was often dismissed as being beyond the reach of science, it should not be underestimated." "Warned"? "Should not be underestimated"? Ah, now I'm beginning to get it. This is just a wind-up, isn't it? One of those "well-actually-I-was-being-sarcastic-but-you-missed-it" gags?

What do you mean, "Well…actually…no"?

Other Comments by Humble Pie

22. Comment #43764 by scottishgeologist on May 22, 2007 at 1:47 pm

Billy Sands said: "amputees growing new limbs isn't quantifyable"

Funny thing is, and I have often wondered about this is that crustaceans can grow new claws - crabs regularly lose claws and grow new ones.

So new limbs isnt really a big deal - if crustaceans can do it, then the idea is already there. Presumably "God" "allows" this to happen amongst the crabs, so why doesnt she/he/it allow it among humans?

After all, praying for a new limb and then growing one - hey, that would kill atheism overnight....

Much more convincing than having some sort of vague "pain" in the back which gets "cured" after spending a few hours in the company of a bunch of "healing" charismaniacs.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

23. Comment #43767 by Badrx on May 22, 2007 at 2:21 pm

The thing that's the same, the thing that is in a sense "controlled for," is humanity. The gods are not controlled for. "Spirits" are not even gods. It's the human act of prayer, if anything, that is effective. This is an argument for a human activity, perhaps, that says nothing about any spiritual reality, and if anything militates against it, since if it doesn't matter which gods or spirits one is praying to, then the "one true god" is merely fostering a damnable chaos. Paul writes that "God is not the author of confusion." Really? Then he has nothing to do with this.

Other Comments by Badrx

24. Comment #43769 by youmemeyou on May 22, 2007 at 2:30 pm

I think a lot of you are missing the boat on this one. Stop just giving believers ownership of everything their claim for their own.

They call it spiritual prayer because there is a long history behind it. That is, there has been an evolutionary process with many skilled practitioners seeking after what works. As unscientific as it is, this kind of evolution is not random. Many of these 'spritual' practices, particularly in eastern religions, do not necessarily have any supernatural component!

Cultivating somatic awareness (body/mind - I use the term somatic to avoid the false dichotomy) and control of anxieties through mental exercises can very plausibly have positive physical effects. The most obvious is stress hormones. I feel in my own case that practicing feldonkrais's exercises has attenuated control of my pelvis, reducing back pain.

Other Comments by youmemeyou

25. Comment #43771 by youmemeyou on May 22, 2007 at 2:32 pm

Proud Okie Atheist
"Subsequently, my doctors were amazed at how quickly I was healing. "Way ahead of schedule" was how it was put to me. All because I actively participated in my recovery."

This is exactly why people who actively participate in a religion are healthier. Clearly God is the reason 'active participation' is healthy.

Other Comments by youmemeyou

26. Comment #43773 by marcmarc on May 22, 2007 at 2:48 pm

Did the people that are prayed on know that they were being prayed on ? I think this is a very important point not mentionned in the article ...

Other Comments by marcmarc

27. Comment #43775 by ? on May 22, 2007 at 3:01 pm

I couldn't help notice that the article starts out by simply reporting about the studies and then speculating about naturalistic explanations like the placebo and meditation effects.

Then it bends over backwards not to offend anyone with even the mildest hint of skepticism. About 1/4 of the article reports the opinions of religious people as if these opinions were more or less on par with the studies' actual findings (not that these findings were all that impressive, anyway).

Other Comments by ?

28. Comment #43779 by scooternyc on May 22, 2007 at 3:17 pm

Unless of course the person is suffering from a severed limb, in which case all the prayers from all the believers in the world are not enough to get God to pay attention.

The Answer:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/


http://godisimaginary.com/

Other Comments by scooternyc

29. Comment #43781 by BaronOchs on May 22, 2007 at 3:25 pm

When I was a believer I was a little horrified at these prayer studies. Because a positive result would seem to suggest God is just a prayer racketeer, and a negative result would suggest there is in fact nothing there. Perhaps it contributed to the whole thing eventually crashing to the ground.

Bizarre to recall I was even perturbed by the claim of one study, that god helps IVF patients. Which if true means the catholic church will have to excommunicate him!

Other Comments by BaronOchs

30. Comment #43785 by BillySands on May 22, 2007 at 3:39 pm

the real reason prayer doesn't work is because as Eric Idle says, god makes:


All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid--
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.

Amen.

Other Comments by BillySands

31. Comment #43788 by blueollie on May 22, 2007 at 4:33 pm

Actually, prayer and meditation can help someone in the same way that, say, certain types of yoga can help.

If one is mentally, emotionally and physically relaxed, one is almost always better off. Less muscle tension often leads to less pain; everyone who has had a medical injection (shot) knows that.

As far as aiding in the healing of diseases: why not? More relaxed people have better attitudes and probably better blood circulation. Of course, these effects would have to be proven via a rigorous study.

But, of course, there is absolutely NOTHING supernatural about any of this.

(unless you count being touched by His Noodly Appendage...:) )

Other Comments by blueollie

32. Comment #43800 by LeeLeeOne on May 22, 2007 at 5:16 pm

Human nature, survival, and hope for a cure... this study proves one thing only. That a human who has the ability to reason ends up being quite unreasonable when faced with the possibility of finality, the end, no more, nada, nothing. Physiologically, meditation of any type (such as those in yoga, mantras, any religion, etc.) does what? It puts a person in an artificial state of sleep, a state where science has proven more than once where the body's self-healing mechanism kicks in. Physiologically - oxygenation improves, blood pressure reduces, blood sugar more efficiently utilized, etc.

And a medical community, organization, membership has NOT figured this out? I wonder seriously if this is the true opinion of the majority of the scientifically educated on Australia or if it is a few who just happen to have the privilege of the loudest (money) voices... hmmmm?

Other Comments by LeeLeeOne

33. Comment #43805 by bluebird on May 22, 2007 at 5:58 pm

Gott in Himmel, vas dreck!!

There's a shortage of science students in the U.S.; maybe one reason is they know there's a chance of having to "work" with these types of people :(

Other Comments by bluebird

34. Comment #43812 by Veronique on May 22, 2007 at 6:37 pm

thirdchimpanzee

The last census reported some 70,000 Jedi Knights (I think, I am an accountant, therefore zeros are error margins). I always assumed they were atheists taking the piss.

I can't believe this article and I must say that the MJA must be losing its grip. I think, however, that Adelaide (in South Australia) is referred to as the City of Churches. Mr Jantos is a clinical psych in that city? A bit of a worry.

Mind you, this is a newspaper review by a non-scientist. She has cobbled her own article and may be trying not to offend her readers.

I agree with you konquererz. Meditation, for me, can be sitting next to my man-made creek watching all my goldfish swimming busily up and down, smiling in the fading sun, at peace with myself and my world with a glass of shiraz in one hand. Very salutary for the soul (and the heart; slows down quite remarkably).

Humble Pie, even when you allow for people lying on census forms (and they do), I am horrified to think that – let's say – 67% or so of my fellow Aussies profess a belief in the supernatural. Must work harder, wiping brow in frustration

scottishgeologist – so do axolotls and they don't pray (at least I have never met one who admitted to it), so, as far as I am concerned, atheism still rules.

Billy – I hadn't seen it written down. Priceless hahaha.

Okie - "Subsequently, my doctors were amazed at how quickly I was healing. "Way ahead of schedule" was how it was put to me. All because I actively participated in my recovery." I agree with youmemeyou (god, that's hard to spell without an error).

I am going with what I think this reporter is doing. Appeasing. The Australian used not be like that. No wonder I don't click onto it anymore.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

35. Comment #43815 by tassie58 on May 22, 2007 at 6:56 pm

As an Australian atheist it does grate when I come across this kind of soft headed drivel.. we're in the grip of a shocking drought here as the climate has gone a little haywire lately (anyone else notice?) and sure enough a week or so ago when we had rain inland for the first time in 7 tears, there were articles in the daily paper about how 'prayers were answered'.. the Big Guy in the sky must have been deaf temporarily, or the Christian dickheads hadn't thought to pray for some time.. or it just rained.
When we had 2 miners stuck in a cave in for 2 weeks a bit over a year ago, people were beside themselves to shout 'miracle' when they got out alive. Unfortunately a third miner was killed, and I thought any bastard that was pushing the miracle angle should have been forced to front up to the family of the dead miner and explain why he wasn't also the recipient of this capricious deistic benevolence.

I don't think we have any more or less of this crap than anyone else.. but it is disappointing.

Other Comments by tassie58

36. Comment #43816 by wardsie on May 22, 2007 at 6:59 pm

I must say that I meditate quite often and have received some training in the practice. And it is true that hurt can diminish in a certain state of mind. I say "hurt" because there still can be pain, but the pain doesn't "hurt".
However I am an atheist and don't believe it is God who does this. People do, too easily, jump to conclusions.

Other Comments by wardsie

37. Comment #43819 by mmurray on May 22, 2007 at 7:15 pm

You can find out about one of the authors here

http://www.kiat.com.au/biography.html

You can find the article here

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/186_10_210507/contents_210507_sup_fm.html

It is in a supplement to the MJA containing the proceedings of a conference Spirituality and Health. Interesting that the reporter grabbed the one with prayer in the title.

The BMI is here

http://www.behavioural-medicine.com/about/index.html

and the Spirituality and Health site who ran the
conference is here

http://www.spiritualityhealth.org.au

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

38. Comment #43837 by Damien White on May 22, 2007 at 11:12 pm

As an outspoken atheist from The City Of Churches, i'd like to point out that we're not all backward down here. Some of us still have our faculties...

Other Comments by Damien White

39. Comment #43842 by the great teapot on May 23, 2007 at 12:28 am

Speaking of Prayer..
God still hasn't turned up with Madeleine yet.
I know that sounds a bit sick and a bit like using a terrible situation to our ends but isn't that what the church did by offering prayers.
I realise it forms another function, to offer comfort and support to the family, but If it that was the purpose, why not just console the family honestly. The truth is hard sometimes.
I notice they are offering millions of pounds reward money.That reminds me of the " ok. Thanks God. Is there anyone else there who CAN help" joke posted yesterday on the site.
Did the Aus scientists have any success with the amputees.

Other Comments by the great teapot

40. Comment #43849 by Bonzai on May 23, 2007 at 12:50 am

I haven't followed the literature so I can't say whether prayer works or not. The question can only be settled through careful experiment, not ideological hyperventilation.

But even if it turns out that prayer has health benifits it doesn't in anyway prove that there is a helping god. Prayer, just like religion itself can be theraputic to those who believe.Otherwise you cannot explain why some people become religious later in life,--the childhood indoctrination theory doesn't apply. It is not so hard to imagine that religion can be used as a coping mechanism for believers. I don't see why as atheists we need to be all worked up about it.

Speaking of prayer I should report some interesting opinions from very religious people that would surprise many people,--in particular Hitchen fans here. The theologian John Spong said that a God who intervened for and only for those who prayed to him didn't deserve to be worshipped. Terry Wait(sp?), the angican envoy who was captured by the Iranians while negotiating for the release of the American hostages said that when he was in captivity he insisted on not praying, because he thought that would be testing God.

Other Comments by Bonzai

41. Comment #43851 by Bonzai on May 23, 2007 at 12:54 am

Comment #43842 by the great teapot

I realise it forms another function, to offer comfort and support to the family, but If it that was the purpose, why not just console the family honestly. The truth is hard sometimes.

Well this depends on whether your purpose is to comfort or to show off how smart you are. I wouldn't turn up in a funeral and lecture the grieving family "the hard truth" if I know they are religious. I may prefer the unvarnished truth but I have no right to tell people how they should feel and how they should cope with their tragedies. But then maybe it's just me.

Other Comments by Bonzai

42. Comment #43859 by MrEmpirical on May 23, 2007 at 1:40 am

What the F*CK?

The heart patients who were prayed for did better?

What bullshit! The REVERSE effect was observed!

It was suggested that when people know they are being prayed for they may feel extra pressure to recover faster, which leads to stress and thus slower recoveries. It was also suggested that perhaps those who know they are being prayed for are less motivated to actively participate in their own recovery.

This was covered in Skeptic magazine ages ago.

I'm even more ashamed to be Australian after reading that distortion of truth in an Aussie medical journal.

Other Comments by MrEmpirical

43. Comment #43862 by the great teapot on May 23, 2007 at 2:28 am

Bonzai

I hope there is no funeral.

Other Comments by the great teapot

44. Comment #43865 by Veronique on May 23, 2007 at 2:33 am

tassie58

I remember being sickened by this display during the mine saga. It was on the airwaves for all those weeks. How many people ended up with their 5 minutes of fame, spruiking shit. People developed enhanced views of themselves. You are right – all this xtian bullshit is happening in Australia. I have just never thought that it held much sway. But it's growing. AAARRRGGGHHH.

That's modern media for you.

Bloody Howard was on TV saying 'pray for rain'. What an outrageous thing for a leader of a (mostly) secular nation to say. I don't think for a minute that he believes anything much at all except his own advertising, but he has learnt to play the electorate. This time, I think he's going down. We'll see; 6 months to go.

Michael

I did a cursory check on your links. You are right; this reporter cherry picked the articles. However, I did notice that other articles also addressed spirituality and religion. They didn't really attempt to differentiate. And I am not a fan of meta-analyses. Worse, I think that these studies are conducted through social science parameters and, I'm sorry, they don't equate to science. Neurology would have been a better starting point than using subjects with an already set mind frame.

I am not saying that science is the only answer to the mysteries of life. But I am prepared to say that the old, tried scientific method doesn't work well with this sort of social science. That methodology used in the social sciences is a sort of aberrant child of science and can't be equated to the results that pure science is able to postulate.

What is more disturbing is that the MJA is prepared to compromise its standing as a peer reviewed scientific journal by even publishing not just the above article but, the others listed in your link.

I grew up with a research biochemist as my pater (hello Billy!). He entered academia in later life, published lots and gained his professorship. He ended his academic days as an emeritus of science which, of course, pleased him.

His distress at the lowered standards of scientific endeavour from his hey day ('30s) to his death ('90s) has stayed with me. I remember him as a man of passion, intelligence and enquiry. I feel that I have been blessed having had him as my father.

I entered teaching in the '70s. I had been taught in the '50s. By the time I entered teaching, I was horrified at the lack of basic levels of literacy and numeracy, Education polemics seemed to me to have adopted a soft approach to basic skills that I was to see throughout the five years I could handle that current system of education. I left bureaucratic teaching models! I couldn't fight City Hall. Pity all those students being taught new age shit.

I leave you now with my memories of my pater
V

Other Comments by Veronique

45. Comment #43872 by Chris Davis on May 23, 2007 at 3:10 am

I'm convinced I read an article recently - possibly here - wherein a study had shown that being prayed for had a small negative effect on recovery, especially if the patient was aware of it.

The suspected reason was that when they were told that they were being prayed for, they shat themselves, assuming that they must be sicker than they had thought.

CD

Other Comments by Chris Davis

46. Comment #43990 by Aussie on May 23, 2007 at 6:17 am

My old University.

I thought that we had better standards than that.

Other Comments by Aussie

47. Comment #44095 by Duff on May 23, 2007 at 10:06 am

Isn't it a miracle how prayers at the end of the dry season always brings rain? And these are supposed to be intelligent people and they still don't get the connection. It is sometimes embarrassing to be a part of this human race.

Other Comments by Duff

48. Comment #44218 by Veronique on May 23, 2007 at 5:59 pm

How old are you Aussie? Standards have been falling for decades.

It was part of the push for inclusivity against the perceived exclusivity. All it really meant that everyone was tested on less stringent criteria. And it kept the students who may have gone into the workforce at educational institutions in an attempt to pull up our proverbial socks when gauged against an international community.

So now, we have less skilled tradespeople because the kids were brainwashed into thinking that as graduates they would earn more dosh.

And we have more graduates in unskilled jobs because we didn't look to the concommitant necessity of funding further research at the same time. Pathetic.

Unfortunately, standards had to be lowered to allow for more enrolments. And so it goes on, down the slope to mediocrity.

I remember the Russians used to (I don't know whether they still do) accept students for university enrolments only after they had left high school and been in the workforce for either one or two years (Can't remember which).

As a result, Russian universities had the lowest first year drop-out rate in the world. This, because the potential students had already weeded themselves out.

I am glad I am old
V

Other Comments by Veronique