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Thursday, May 24, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document I Don't Believe in Atheists

by Chris Hedges, Truthdig

Thanks to ranjani for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070523_chris_hedges_i_dont_believe_in_atheists/

Editor's Note: On Tuesday night, Chris Hedges and Sam Harris debated "Religion, Politics and the End of the World." The following is Hedges' opening statement, in which he argues that Harris and other critics of faith have mistakenly blamed religion for the ills of the world, when the true danger lies in the human heart and its capacity for evil. We will post Sam Harris' statement and a recording of the debate soon.

Sam Harris has conflated faith with tribalism. His book is an attack not on faith but on a system of being and believing that is dangerous and incompatible with the open society. He attacks superstition, a belief in magic and the childish notion of an anthropomorphic God that is characteristic of the tribe, of the closed society. He calls this religion. I do not.

What he fails to grasp is not simply the meaning of faith—something I will address later—but the supreme importance of the monotheistic traditions in creating the concept of the individual. This individualism—the belief that we can exist as distinct beings from the tribe, or the crowd, and that we are called on as individuals to make moral decisions that at times defy the clamor of the tribe or the nation—is a gift of the Abrahamic faiths. This sense of individual responsibility is coupled with the constant injunctions in Islam, Judaism and Christianity for a deep altruism. And this laid the foundations for the open society. This individualism is the central doctrine and most important contribution of monotheism. We are enjoined, after all, to love our neighbor, not our tribe. This empowerment of individual conscience is the starting point of the great ethical systems of our civilization. The prophets—and here I would include Jesus—helped institutionalize dissent and criticism. They initiated the separation of powers. They reminded us that culture and society were not the sole prerogative of the powerful, that freedom and indeed the religious life required us to often oppose and defy those in authority. This is a distinctly anti-tribal outlook. Immanuel Kant built his ethics upon this radical individualism. And Kant's injunction to "always recognize that human individuals are ends, and do not use them as mere means" runs in a direct line from the Christian Gospels. Karl Popper rightly pointed out in the first volume of "The Open Society and Its Enemies," when he writes about this creation of the individual as set against the crowd, that "There is no other thought which has been so powerful in the moral development of man" (P. 102, Vol. 1). These religions set free the critical powers of humankind. They broke with the older Greek and Roman traditions that gods and destiny ruled human fate—a belief that when challenged by Socrates saw him condemned to death. They offered up the possibility that human beings, although limited by circumstances and simple human weaknesses, could shape and give direction to society. And most important, individuals could give direction to their own lives.

Human communication directly shapes the quality of a culture. These believers were being asked to embrace an abstract, universal deity. This deity could not be captured in pictures, statues or any concrete, iconographic form. God exists in the word and through the word, an unprecedented conception in the ancient world that required the highest order of abstract thinking. "In the beginning," the Gospel of John reads, "was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This is why the second of the Ten Commandments prohibits Israelites from making concrete images of God. "Iconography thus became blasphemy," Neil Postman writes, "so that a new kind of God could enter a culture."

God is a human concept. God is the name we give to our belief that life has meaning, one that transcends the world's chaos, randomness and cruelty. To argue about whether God exists or does not exist is futile. The question is not whether God exists. The question is whether we concern ourselves with, or are utterly indifferent to, the sanctity and ultimate transcendence of human existence. God is that mysterious force—and you can give it many names as other religions do—which works upon us and through us to seek and achieve truth, beauty and goodness. God is perhaps best understood as our ultimate concern, that in which we should place our highest hopes, confidence and trust. In Exodus God says, by way of identification, "I am that I am." It is probably more accurately translated: "I will be what I will be." God is better understood as verb rather than a noun. God is not an asserted existence but a process accomplishing itself. And God is inescapable. It is the life force that sustains, transforms and defines all existence. The name of God is laden, thanks to our religious institutions and the numerous tyrants, charlatans and demagogues these institutions produced, with so much baggage and imagery that it is hard for us to see the intent behind the concept. All societies and cultures have struggled to give words to describe these forces. It is why Freud avoided writing about the phenomenon of love.

Faith allows us to trust, rather, in human compassion, even in a cruel and morally neutral universe. This is not faith in magic, not faith in church doctrine or church hierarchy, but faith in simple human kindness. It is only by holding on to the sanctity of each individual, each human life, only by placing our faith in the tiny, insignificant acts of compassion and kindness, that we survive as a community and as a human being. And these small acts of kindness are deeply feared and subversive to institutional religious and political authorities. The Russian novelist Vasily Grossman wrote in "Life and Fate":

I have seen that it is not man who is impotent in the struggle against evil, but the power of evil that is impotent in the struggle against man. The powerlessness of kindness, of senseless kindness, is the secret of its immortality. It can never be conquered. The more stupid, the more senseless, the more helpless it may seem, the vaster it is. Evil is impotent before it. The prophets, religious teachers, reformers, social and political leaders are impotent before it. This dumb, blind love is man's meaning.

Human history is not the battle of good struggling to overcome evil. It is a battle fought by a great evil struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness. But if what is human in human beings has not been destroyed even now, then evil will never conquer.


It is by the seriousness of our commitments to compassion, indeed our ability to sacrifice for the other, especially for the outcast and the stranger, our commitment to justice—the very core of the message of the prophets and the teachings of Jesus—that we alone can measure the quality of faith. This is the meaning of true faith. As Matthew wrote. "By their fruits shall you know them." Professed faith—what we say we believe—is not faith. It is an expression of loyalty to a community, to our tribe. Faith is what we do. This is real faith. Faith is the sister of justice. And the prophets reminded us that nothing is exempt from criticism. Revelation is continuous. It points beyond itself. And doubt, as well as a request for forgiveness, must be included in every act of faith, for we can never know or understand the will of God.

The problem is not religion but religious orthodoxy. Most moral thinkers—from Socrates to Christ to Francis of Assisi—eschewed the written word because they knew, I suspect, that once things were written down they became, in the wrong hands, codified and used not to promote morality but conformity, subservience and repression. Writing freezes speech. George Steiner calls this "the decay into writing." Language is turned from a living and fluid form of moral inquiry to a tool of bondage.

The moment the writers of the Gospels set down the words of Jesus they began to kill the message. There is no room for prophets within religious institutions—indeed within any institutions—for as Paul Tillich knew, all human institutions, including the church, are inherently demonic. Tribal societies persecute and silence prophets. Open societies tolerate them at their fringes, and our prophets today come not from the church but from our artists, poets and writers who follow their inner authority. Samuel Beckett's voice is one of modernity's most authentically religious. Beckett, like the author of Ecclesiastes, was a realist. He saw the pathetic, empty monuments we spend a lifetime building to ourselves. He knew, as we read in Ecclesiastes, that nothing is certain or permanent, real or unreal, and that the secret of wisdom is detachment without withdrawal, that, since death awaits us all, all is vanity, that we must give up on the childish notion that one is rewarded for virtue or wisdom. In Ecclesiastes God has put 'olam into man's mind. 'Olam usually means eternity, but it also means the sense of mystery or obscurity. We do not know what this mystery means. It teases us, as Keats wrote, out of thought. And once we recognize it and face it, simplistic answers no longer work. We are all born lost. Our vain belief in our own powers, in our reason, blinds us.

Those who silenced Jesus represented all human societies, not the Romans or the Jews. When Jesus attacks the chief priests, scribes, lawyers, Pharisees, Sadducees and other "blind guides" he is attacking forms of oppression as endemic to Christianity, as to all religions and all ideologies. If civil or religious authority enforces an iron and self-righteous conformity among members of a community, then faith loses its uncertainty, and the element of risk is removed from acts of faith. Faith is then transformed into ideology. Those who deform faith into creeds, who use it as a litmus test for institutional fidelity, root religion in a profane rather than a sacred context. They seek, like all who worship idols, to give the world a unity and coherency it does not possess. They ossify the message. And once ossified it can never reach an existential level, can never rise to ethical freedom—to faith. The more vast the gap between professed faith and acts of faith, the more vast our delusions about our own grandeur and importance, the more intolerant, aggressive and dangerous we become.

Faith is not in conflict with reason. Faith does not conflict with scientific truth, unless faith claims to express a scientific truth. Faith can neither be affirmed nor denied by scientific, historical or philosophical truth. Sam confuses the irrational—which he sees as part of faith—with the non-rational. There is a reality that is not a product of rational deduction. It is not accounted for by strict rational discourse. There is a spiritual dimension to human existence and the universe, but this is not irrational—it is non-rational. Faith allows us to transcend what Flaubert said was our "mania for conclusions," a mania he described as "one of humanity's most useless and sterile drives."

Reason allows us to worship at the idol of our intrinsic moral superiority. It is a dangerous form of idolatry, a form of faith, certainly, but one the biblical writers knew led to evil and eventually self-immolation.

"We are at war with Islam," Harris writes. "It may not serve our immediate foreign policy objectives for our political leaders to openly acknowledge this fact, but it is unambiguously so. It is not merely that we are at war with an otherwise peaceful religion that has been 'hijacked' by extremists. We are at war with precisely the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran, and further elaborated in the literature of the hadith, which recounts the sayings and teachings of the Prophet" (P. 110).

He assures us that "the Koran mandates such hatred" (P. 31 ), that "the problem is with Islam itself" (P. 28). He writes that "Islam, more than any other religion human beings have devised, has all the makings of a thoroughgoing cult of death" (P. 123).

Now after studying 600 hours of Arabic, spending seven years of my life in the Middle East, most of that time as the Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times, I do not claim to be a scholar on Islam. But I do know the Koran is emphatic about the rights of other religions to practice their own beliefs and unequivocally condemns attacks on civilians as a violation of Islam. The Koran states that suicide, of any type, is an abomination. More important, the tactic of suicide bombing was pioneered as a weapon of choice by the Tamils, who are chiefly Hindu, in Sri Lanka long before it was adopted by Hezbollah, al-Qaida or Hamas. It is what you do when you do not have artillery or planes or missiles and you want to create maximum terror.

I also know from my time in the Muslim world that the vast majority of the some 1 billion Muslims on this planet—most of whom are not Arab—are moderate, detest the violence done in the name of their religion and look at the Pat Robertsons and Franklin Grahams, who demonize Muslims in the name of Christianity, with the same horror with which we look at Osama bin Laden or Hamas. The Palestinian resistance movement took on a radical Islam coloring in the 1990s only when conditions in Gaza and the West Bank deteriorated and thrust people into profound hopelessness, despair and poverty—conditions similar to those that empowered the Christian right in our own country. Before that the movement was decidedly secular. I know that Muslim societies are shaped far more by national characteristics—an Iraqi has a culture and outlook on life that are quite different from an Indonesian's—just as a French citizen, although a Catholic, is influenced far more by the traits of his culture. Islam has within it tiny, marginal groups that worship death, but nearly all suicide bombers come from one language group within the Muslim world, Arabic, which represents only 20 percent of Muslims. I have seen the bodies—including the bodies of children—left in the wake of a suicide bombing attack in Jerusalem. But I have also seen the frail, thin bodies of boys shot to death for sport by Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip. Tell me the moral difference. I fail to see one, especially as a father.

Finally, let us not forget that the worst genocides and slaughters of the last century were perpetrated not by Muslims but Christians. To someone who lived in Sarajevo during the Serbian siege of the city, Sam's demonization of the Muslim world seems odd. It was the Muslim-led government in Bosnia that practiced tolerance. There were some 10,000 Serbs who remained in the city and fought alongside the Bosnia Muslims during the war. The city's Jewish community, dating back to 1492, was also loyal to the government. And the worst atrocities of the war were blessed not by imams but Catholic and Serbian Orthodox priests. Sam's argument that atheists have a higher moral code is as specious as his attacks on Islam. Does he forget Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot? These three alone filled the earth with more corpses in the last century than all of the world's clerics combined.

The danger is not Islam or Christianity or any other religion. It is the human heart—the capacity we all have for evil. All human institutions with a lust for power give their utopian visions divine sanction, whether this comes through the worship of God, destiny, historical inevitability, the master race, a worker's paradise, fraternite-liberte-egalite or the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Religion is often a convenient vehicle for this blood lust. Religious institutions often sanctify genocide, but this says more about us, about the nature of human institutions and the darkest human yearnings, than it does about religion. This is the greatest failing of Sam's book. He externalizes evil. And when you externalize evil, all tools, including violence and torture, become legitimate to eradicate an evil that is outside of you. This worldview—one also adopted by the Christian right—is dangerous, for if we fail to acknowledge our own capacity for evil it will grow unchecked and unheeded. It is, in essence, the call to live the unexamined life.

This externalization of evil is what allows Sam to endorse torture. He, of course, deludes himself into believing that it is reason that requires us to waterboard detainees in the physical and moral black holes we have set up to make them disappear. He quotes Alan Dershowitz, not only to reassure us that the Israelis treat Palestinians—400 of whom they have killed in Gaza over the past few months—humanely, but to trot out the absurd notion of a ticking time bomb, the idea that we know a terrorist has planted a large bomb in the center of the city and we must torture him, or in the glib phrase of Harris, we must dust off "a strappado" and expose "this unpleasant fellow to a suasion of bygone times" (P. 193).

I guess this reference to torture is amusing if you have spent your life encased in the protected world of the university. As someone who was captured and held for over a week by the Iraqi Republican Guard during the 1991 Shiite uprising in Basra and then turned over for my final 24 hours to the Iraqi secret police—who my captors openly expected to execute me—I find this glib talk of physical abuse repugnant. Dershowitz and Harris cannot give us a legal or historical precedent where such a case as they describe actually happened. But this is not the point; the point is to endow themselves with the moral right to abuse others in the name of their particular version of goodness. This is done in the name of reason. It is done in the name of a false god, an idol. And this god—if you want it named—is the god of death, or as Freud stated, Thanatos, the death instinct, the impulse that works toward the annihilation of all living things, including ourselves. For once you torture, done in the name of reason, done to make us safe, you unleash sadists and killers. You consign some human beings to moral oblivion. You become no better than those you oppose.

The danger of Sam's simplistic worldview is that it does what fundamentalists do: It creates the illusion of a binary world of us and them, of reason versus irrationality, of the forces of light battling the forces of darkness. And once you set up this world you are permitted to view as justified military intervention, brutal occupation and even torture, anything, in short, that will subdue what is defined as irrational and dangerous. All this is done in the name of reason, in the name of his god, which looks, like all idols, an awful lot like Sam Harris.

"Necessity," William Pitt wrote, "is the plea for every infringement of human freedom."

Sam ends his book with a chapter that can best be described as Buddhism light. His spirituality, which apparently includes life after death and telepathy, fuels our narcissistic obsession with our individual unconscious. I am not against solitude or meditation, but I support it only when it feeds the moral life rather than serves as an excuse to avoid moral commitment. The quest for personal fulfillment can become an excuse for the individual to negate his or her responsibilities as a citizen, as a member of a wider community. Sam's religion—for Sam in an odd way tries at the end of his book to create one—is in tune with this narcissism. His idealized version of Buddhism is part of his inability to see that it too has been used to feed the lusts of warriors and killers, it too has been hijacked in the name of radical evil. Buddhist Shinto warrior cults justified and absolved those who carried out the worst atrocities committed by the Japanese in Nanjing. By the end of World War II Buddhist and Shinto priests recruited and indoctrinated kamikaze (divine wind) pilots in the name of another god. It is an old story. It is not the evil of religion, but the inherent capacity for evil of humankind.

The point of religion, authentic religion, is that it is not, in the end, about us. It is about the other, about the stranger lying beaten and robbed on the side of the road, about the poor, the outcasts, the marginalized, the sick, the destitute, about those who are being abused and beaten in cells in Guantanamo and a host of other secret locations, about what we do to gays and lesbians in this country, what we do to the 47 million Americans without health insurance, the illegal immigrants who live among us without rights or protection, their suffering as invisible as the suffering of the mentally ill we have relegated to heating grates or prison cells. It is about them.

We have forgotten who we were meant to be, who we were created to be, because we have forgotten that we find God not in ourselves, finally, but in our care for our neighbor, in the stranger, including those outside the nation and the faith. The religious life is not designed to make you happy, or safe or content; it is not designed to make you whole or complete, to free you from anxieties and fear; it is designed to save you from yourself, to make possible human community, to lead you to understand that the greatest force in life is not power or reason but love.

As Reinhold Niebuhr wrote:

Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime,
Therefore, we are saved by hope.
Nothing true or beautiful or good makes complete sense in any immediate context of history;
Therefore, we are saved by faith.
Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone.
Therefore, we are saved by love.
No virtuous act is quite as virtuous from the standpoint of our friend or foe as from our own;
Therefore, we are saved by the final form of love which is forgiveness.

Comments 1 - 50 of 94 |

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1. Comment #44320 by quasarsphere on May 24, 2007 at 10:48 am

 avatar"This individualism—the belief that we can exist as distinct beings from the tribe, or the crowd, and that we are called on as individuals to make moral decisions that at times defy the clamor of the tribe or the nation—is a gift of the Abrahamic faiths."

I'm no Bible scholar, but I'm fairly certain that's bollocks.

Other Comments by quasarsphere

2. Comment #44323 by PrimeNumbers on May 24, 2007 at 11:07 am

 avatarYou've got to call a spade a spade, and god is not this indescribable force or want for meaning - it is what it is and a universal creator who can know and can do everything and is worthy of worship, or at least that's what the definition says. You can't just play "the definition game" and define god away like that.

The problem probably isn't religion itself, but orginised religion for sure. Problem is not the odd individual believing the opposite of their senses and evidence, but of orginised groups who play definition games to try and hide the fact that it's utter bollocks from their own common sense.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

3. Comment #44326 by Fedler on May 24, 2007 at 11:12 am

 avatar
God is a human concept. God is the name we give to our belief that life has meaning, one that transcends the world's chaos, randomness and cruelty...God is that mysterious force—and you can give it many names as other religions...God is perhaps best understood as our ultimate concern...

So God is a human belief that is responsible for only good things, is a mysterious force and is our ultimate concern. So which is it?
In Exodus God says, by way of identification, "I am that I am."...

So this belief/force/concern can talk now?
God is better understood as verb rather than a noun. God is not an asserted existence but a process accomplishing itself.

Now he's a figure of speech and a process??? WTF!
And God is inescapable. It is the life force...

Which means what exactly?...

Typical doubletalk. The god of Harris is not MY god. What a horribly wishy washy god this god is alleged to be. Oh, wait, that means god can be anything you want it to be? Even - gee I don't know - MADE UP!!

I stopped reading after that bit. Sorry, couldn't tolerate it.

Other Comments by Fedler

4. Comment #44328 by Stuart Paul Wood on May 24, 2007 at 11:13 am

"Faith is not in conflict with reason."

Oh yes it is.

"Faith does not conflict with scientific truth, unless faith claims to express a scientific truth."

It does and it does.

"Faith can neither be affirmed nor denied by scientific, historical or philosophical truth."

Yes it can.

"Sam confuses the irrational—which he sees as part of faith—with the non-rational."

A+ for stupidity. Distinction without a difference. Non-rational/irrational = devoid of rationality.


"There is a reality that is not a product of rational deduction. It is not accounted for by strict rational discourse. There is a spiritual dimension to human existence and the universe, but this is not irrational—it is non-rational."

Bullshit.

"Faith allows us to transcend what Flaubert said was our "mania for conclusions," a mania he described as "one of humanity's most useless and sterile drives.""

Science, and all it has given us, is useless and sterile. Let us pray.

Other Comments by Stuart Paul Wood

5. Comment #44330 by bitbutter on May 24, 2007 at 11:18 am

 avatar
God is a human concept. God is the name we give to our belief that life has meaning, one that transcends the world's chaos, randomness and cruelty.

no, most people think he's a being.

God is perhaps best understood as our ultimate concern, that in which we should place our highest hopes, confidence and trust.

'perhaps best understood' yes, perhaps it would be best if god was understood by the majority as something as vague as our 'ultimate concern'. The problem, that i'm confident Harris will patiently explain for the umpteenth time, is that this isn't the god that the vast majority worship. If it was, there'd be no problem.

Other Comments by bitbutter

6. Comment #44331 by Cato on May 24, 2007 at 11:18 am

Religious institutions often sanctify genocide, but this says more about us, about the nature of human institutions and the darkest human yearnings, than it does about religion. This is the greatest failing of Sam's book. He externalizes evil.


The greatest failing of religious people is that they externalize religion.

Other Comments by Cato

7. Comment #44332 by FreeThink25 on May 24, 2007 at 11:19 am

"This is not faith in magic, not faith in church doctrine or church hierarchy, but faith in simple human kindness."

Does anyone really need faith to believe in kindness? Or just eyes and ears, and compassion.....

"It is by the seriousness of our commitments to compassion, indeed our ability to sacrifice for the other, especially for the outcast and the stranger, our commitment to justice—the very core of the message of the prophets and the teachings of Jesus—that we alone can measure the quality of faith. This is the meaning of true faith. As Matthew wrote. "By their fruits shall you know them." Professed faith—what we say we believe—is not faith. It is an expression of loyalty to a community, to our tribe. Faith is what we do. This is real faith."

No, my friend, this is "works"....no one need believe in anything in the face of doubt to be compassionate. We're not the only mammals that do it.

This is a favorite tactic of most of my friends that I debate. Hijack the religious terminology, dilute it until all you are really defining is humanity, and then say "a ha!".....it DOES exist!

Other Comments by FreeThink25

8. Comment #44334 by Fedler on May 24, 2007 at 11:23 am

 avatar
This is a favorite tactic of most of my friends that I debate. Hijack the religious terminology, dilute it until all you are really defining is humanity, and then say "a ha!".....it DOES exist!

Very good point, FreeThink25.

Other Comments by Fedler

9. Comment #44336 by military_atheist on May 24, 2007 at 11:27 am

I would totally agree with this article in general principle. I think Chris Hedges is one of those people who, like a lot on my friends, are really atheists but refuse to give up the terminology. Perhaps, in the past, religion and faith were necessary as part of our evolutionary journey. But, I think the human race (some of them) have evolved and grown to a point where we don't need a imaginary force to tell us what we already know is good for our society and our species. We need to do the things Chris talks about without resorting to invoking the concept of "god" or "faith"

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10. Comment #44339 by bruno_burned on May 24, 2007 at 11:38 am

 avatarStrange: Most of Chris Hedges's arguments are the same arguments I use *against* theism.

Namely, that many theists are actually using the word "God" for a variety of human experiences, such as awe, reverence, humility before the universe, respect for moral character, etc. They actually don't believe in God the entity, they believe in these human feelings; they 'believe in belief'.

These liberal Christians are slippery, deluded little kittens, aren't they?

Other Comments by bruno_burned

11. Comment #44341 by arildno on May 24, 2007 at 11:40 am

What a load of apologist horseshit.
And what arrogance!
Even the Europeans recognized the untypical degree of respect for individuality (even to the point of quirkiness) in many Native American cultures.

To monopolize the respect for individualism to the religions most responsible for trampling upon it is just morally perverse.

Other Comments by arildno

12. Comment #44344 by Stuart Paul Wood on May 24, 2007 at 11:43 am

arildno - well said!

Other Comments by Stuart Paul Wood

13. Comment #44348 by reason-first on May 24, 2007 at 11:53 am

... runs in a direct line from the Christian Gospels. ... These religions set free the critical powers of humankind. They broke with the older Greek and Roman traditions that gods and destiny ruled human fate—a belief that when challenged by Socrates saw him condemned to death.

I did not know that Socrates (about 470–399 BCE) was a Christian. Did or did he not break with the older traditions? If anything, "these religions" stole from Sokrates!

It's quite obvious that Hedges cannot think clearly but will utter any nonsense just to "prove" his point. Disgraceful!

Other Comments by reason-first

14. Comment #44350 by Skeptic Jim on May 24, 2007 at 11:55 am

*smiles and rubs hands together*

The theists are getting angrier and angrier. =)

Other Comments by Skeptic Jim

15. Comment #44351 by newcomer on May 24, 2007 at 12:00 pm

I'm dizzy from reading part of this article.I couldn't finish it. I used to think it was me that just could not comprehend what I was reading but now I know it wasn't.It's just incomprehensible!.

Other Comments by newcomer

16. Comment #44352 by arildno on May 24, 2007 at 12:07 pm

It isn really that incomprehensible as long as you understand that Hedges suffers from the main flaw of all religionists, namely the desire to sanctify his acts of mental masturbation even if that requires the sacrifice of his sanity, reason and humanity and anything else he might deem necessary to discard.

Other Comments by arildno

17. Comment #44354 by willerror on May 24, 2007 at 12:08 pm

--I think Chris Hedges is one of those people who, like a lot on my friends, are really atheists but refuse to give up the terminology.--

I thought the same thing reading this. There is nothing particularly "religious" or "spiritual" in his descriptions of human behavior; it is just that, human behavior. No gods necessary, humans still behave the same way.

Other Comments by willerror

18. Comment #44355 by MAS2007 on May 24, 2007 at 12:08 pm

 avatararildno - Sorry, but that is a slight on horse shit, which has useful applications and smells better than this nosense.

Other Comments by MAS2007

19. Comment #44357 by Peacebeuponme on May 24, 2007 at 12:19 pm

FreeThink25:
This is a favorite tactic of most of my friends that I debate. Hijack the religious terminology, dilute it until all you are really defining is humanity, and then say "a ha!".....it DOES exist!


Quite. This guy is so far on the other side of the god spectrum he's almost an atheist, at least with regards what is written above. I bet he still goes to church and prays though, which is a bit inconsistent.

I hope Harris detroyed him. His word-arsenal has easily enough firepower.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

20. Comment #44361 by Bayle on May 24, 2007 at 12:32 pm

I love Sam more and more for his willingness to debate such duplicitous charlatans.

Other Comments by Bayle

21. Comment #44362 by squinky on May 24, 2007 at 12:38 pm

 avatar"In Exodus God says, by way of
identification, "I am that I am."

Not as profound as:
"I am what I am" --Popeye, and
"It is what it is" --Tony Soprano

"Faith is what we do. This is real faith.
Faith is the sister of justice."

So killing others for a disbelief is God is justice? No, no--faith is not even a step-child of justice. Justice won't even adopt faith, that's why the legal system has no Biblical versus in it.

Other Comments by squinky

22. Comment #44364 by Duff on May 24, 2007 at 12:40 pm

This theologian lost me when he claimed abrahamic religions freed mankind and allowed them to be individuals. In which one of the mulitiple universes did that happen? Certainly not this one. That's nearly the funniest thing any of these theists have said.

Other Comments by Duff

23. Comment #44366 by Nick Brennan on May 24, 2007 at 12:44 pm

Rather ironically we have an atheist who thinks he is a theist who doesn't believe in atheists, debating against an atheist.

Confusion abounds.

Other Comments by Nick Brennan

24. Comment #44374 by coretemprising on May 24, 2007 at 12:54 pm

Hedges said: "...It is why Freud avoided writing about the phenomenon of love."
Well, I don't know if Freud avoided writing about love, or for that reason, but we weren't exactly talking about love here, and Freud had a bit to say about the god question in a little volume called The Future of an ILLUSION (my emphasis).
Illusion/delusion. Close enough.
Also, I have to join the group who can't get all the way through something like this. Once you've determined it's a bunch of bs, why waste any more time with it? Downright depressing garbage.

Other Comments by coretemprising

25. Comment #44376 by konquererz on May 24, 2007 at 12:55 pm

 avatarThis dude is nonsense in a bowl. First off, the faith Abraham passed down did not teach independence and individualism from the tribe. They were a chosen people, anyone who didn't do what god said was killed out right. Read the god damn bible before you open yer yap about it!

Second, if god is not really a god, then what is all the argument about? He is arguing for a theism that doesn't exist. I still know tons of Christians, and every single one of them would stone him for blasphemy, saying god is a human concept. He is making an argument for a god that doesn't exist, even in most theists minds. Not sure what his purpose was behind the entire argument.

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26. Comment #44377 by squinky on May 24, 2007 at 12:57 pm

 avatarHis last paragraph pisses me off.

I donated money to Katrina relief, Tsunami relief, and 9/11 victims (all God's fault). Do I know these people? Not one. Do I believe in God? F*** no! God doesn't feed people or clothe them or give them medicine--people do--including a lot of humanists like me (and secular organizations like Doctors Withour Borders, USAID, the Gates Foundation) who think you and your non-interventionalist God are assholes!

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27. Comment #44379 by coretemprising on May 24, 2007 at 12:58 pm

Also, I'm with Duff about Abrahamic religions freeing mankind to be individuals. Huh? Ridiculous!

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28. Comment #44382 by med1972 on May 24, 2007 at 1:06 pm

Aside from his serious handwaving around the definition of god, I actually enjoyed his article. It doesn't reak of christian rhetoric. Sort of a 'breath of fresh air' relative to some of the other trash I've been reading bythe far-right lately. Not that I am shaking his hand or anything but, it is otherwise pretty honest. He clearly states that the problems we see today have more to do with organised religion and it's quest for power in the world. We all have a capacity for hate and violence. That is ultimately the root of our problems. Dogma of all sorts, including the dogma of Stalin or Pol Pot, can bring out the worst in us. Haven't read Sam's "End of Faith" yet but it is on my bookshelf. Have to finish 'Kingdom Coming' first.

Mark

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29. Comment #44383 by PeterK on May 24, 2007 at 1:09 pm

Blatherings such as this one are certainly becoming more creative as time passes. Rather than stopping to think about how their own belief system is just simply has nothing whatsover to do with reality, and admit that this is so--they invent new sides of their mouth from which they can speak, and perform some logical gymnastics and contortions that are becoming so convoluted,( now far exceeding the idea of 'being irrational') that I can only see the point where an invention of an entirely new language where even the speaker himself can no longer understand, let alone to whom he speaks, be the playing field of those who continue the attempts to support a theistic position.

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30. Comment #44384 by lostpoet on May 24, 2007 at 1:13 pm

 avatarDespite a promising beginning (god is a rhetorical construction), Hedges pulls the sissy-switch and settles for the ever conventional "force" line of discussion. He notes that god "...is that mysterious force,and "...the life force." He finishes by claiming that "...the greatest force in life is...love." So god, the verb, is now love -- "a process accomplishing itself."

Apparently, "faith" is also a force in our lives. So, the faith-force allows us to trust in the mysterious love-force process, accomplishing itself? According to Hedges, "...we alone can measure the quality of faith," however, "[F]aith can neither be affirmed nor denied by scientific, historical or philosophical truth."

Mind-numbing...staggeringly stupid.

My favorite quote from Hedges' "tool-of-bondage": "...all human institutions, including the church, are inherently demonic."

What a tool!

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31. Comment #44387 by jaytee_555 on May 24, 2007 at 1:24 pm

This guy obviously thinks he's smart, but he's barely entitled to delusions of adequacy! He thinks he has neatly redefined the issues so as to forestall anything Sam Harris can say. Sam will eat him for breakfast. It's almost unfair of Harris to take this guy on....it'll be a bloody massacre.

JT (UK)

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32. Comment #44389 by Oppomystic on May 24, 2007 at 1:32 pm

 avatarYes, religion doesn't kill people, people kill people. Just like guns.

Both are quite capable of getting rid of a lot of people in short periods of time. I think the world would be better off without either...

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33. Comment #44390 by peahix on May 24, 2007 at 1:33 pm

peterk, post #30, isn't that what's called "speaking in tongues?"

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34. Comment #44391 by Hip_Priest on May 24, 2007 at 1:35 pm

I think this guy had better persuade some of his fellow theists that they actually worship a "human concept" simply a "name we give to our belief that life has meaning" before he starts arguing the case for his "god".

Who else thinks they would laugh in his face?

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35. Comment #44394 by Teapot_Believer on May 24, 2007 at 1:43 pm

 avatar"It is by the seriousness of our commitments to compassion, indeed our ability to sacrifice for the other, especially for the outcast and the stranger, our commitment to justice—the very core of the message of the prophets and the teachings of Jesus—that we alone can measure the quality of faith. This is the meaning of true faith."

I agree that compassion and sacrifice for one another are essential to humans' well-being and further peace achievement. However, I disagree on how we become compassionate and devoted to others. Why do I have to resort to religious authorities to be aware and to practice those virtues? I strongly think that faith alone helps very little to actually practice those qualities. What's more, I think that in many cases faith fosters hypocrisy: you may read and listen to many believers talking about Jesus' teachings, but do they actually practice what they preach? This is why I think that reason is the best tool that can make us attain compassion and sacrifice. The understanding of the reasons why it is necessary for us to show concern for others and of the environmental and psychological forces that –we like it or not- rule over us, and our further conscious reflective thinking about those forces eventually and necessarily lead you to, on the one hand, feel pity and revulsion at acts of injustice and selfishness, and on the other, make a difference by behaving in the exactly opposite way people who haven't reflected on those forces behave. When you attain this, there is no need for supernatural entities.
There is another thing I disagree with. You're talking about the meaning of "true faith", which is based on the prophets' teaching of justice, compassion and self-sacrifice. If this was true, then Christianity wouldn't be a religion but a philosophical system of thought. What makes a religion be a religion then? I think it is the supernatural entities and actions. If you believe in the divinity of Jesus and in his walking on water, then you have faith. If you don't, faith is over! That is the meaning of true faith: it is the acceptance of the supernatural claims without questioning them. As I said before, if people accepted Jesus teachings of self-sacrifice and compassion even without question, and yet at the same time rejected his divinity, then Christianity would not exist as a religion but as a philosophy.
Another thing: the fact that the biblical prophets and Jesus preached on those virtues does not mean that they invented them. Evolution by natural selection clearly shows that altruism predates religion. In the natural world, altruism is everywhere: animals taking care of other species, chimps saving other chimps from drowning while failing in the attempt, etc. Whether religious people like it or not, we inherited those values from the animal world. The fact that somehow we share something in common with animals compels you to behave respectfully not only towards your fellow humans but also towards the environment, and this is something that some Evangelicals are not very willing to achieve.
And yet another thing: you chose some passages from the bible to back up your points. What criteria did you use to choose those excerpts? Did you cherry pick? Tell me, can I get some compassion, self-sacrifice towards my neighbor out of Old Testament books such as Numbers, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy?

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36. Comment #44395 by Ribbons on May 24, 2007 at 1:43 pm

Hedge states that god is a concept. Yes we know that, and as Freud reminds us, god is an abstract concept devised originally from the individual's infantile helplessness. He then states that "God is the name we give to our belief that life has meaning, one that transcends the world's chaos, randomness and cruelty… it's the transcendence of human existence." Now Hedge relates this to writer Samuel Beckett claiming that he has a "religious voice", but then he goes on to assert that Beckett is a realist, yes he is realist, and therefore this is a complete contradiction, for Beckett is not interested in any transcendent point of reference, not at all, for human existence to be attached to some transcendent signified is a complete and tragic misunderstanding of Beckett's writing. Yes his writing may be classified as religious, but only in the sense of Einstein's religiosity. It has nothing to do with some higher mind or god.

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37. Comment #44403 by Ribbons on May 24, 2007 at 2:28 pm

Also, Freud speaks a heap about love. Especially in respect to narcissism. Fluxuating between desire for another person (object love) and self-love. He says that being in love involves a sacrifice of the self; a renunciation. And love in this sense works within the ego and superego, where the renunciation is taken in order not to lose one's love of an external authority (god)and this sets up an internal authority (superego) which comes about a sense of guilt. Christ is a superego, and make believes feel guilty, a fear of conscience on major scale.

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38. Comment #44404 by Wrought on May 24, 2007 at 2:33 pm

There's been about 36 posts since I started writing this, but I thought I'd post it anyway, even though a lot of it has been covered.
This individualism — the belief that we can exist as distinct beings from the tribe, or the crowd, and that we are called on as individuals to make moral decisions that at times defy the clamor of the tribe or the nation — is a gift of the Abrahamic faiths.

This sense of individual responsibility is coupled with the constant injunctions in Islam, Judaism and Christianity for a deep altruism.

This individualism is the central doctrine and most important contribution of monotheism. We are enjoined, after all, to love our neighbor, not our tribe.

Oh really?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1164540.ece
God is a human concept.

Chris Hedges is an atheist?
God is not an asserted existence but a process accomplishing itself.

Chris Hedges is an evolutionist?
It is the life force that sustains, transforms and defines all existence.

Ah... Chris Hedges is a Jedi!!! "The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
Thanks to our religious institutions and the numerous tyrants, charlatans and demagogues these institutions produced, with so much baggage and imagery that it is hard for us to see the intent behind the concept.

And Chris Hedges definition of God is a nice clear one, yeah?
All societies and cultures have struggled to give words to describe these forces. It is why Freud avoided writing about the phenomenon of love.

Sorry. We're not using Freud to justify the existence of God because he avoided writing about the phenomenon of love? Oh. We are. Freud did write about religion though - he proposed humans originally banded together in "primal hordes", consisting of a male, a number of females and the offspring. The sons become jealous of the father and so killed and ate him, but feeling guilty they then substituted symbolic animal sacrifice for the ritual killing of a human being. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud.
This god—if you want it named—is the god of death, or as Freud stated, Thanatos, the death instinct, the impulse that works toward the annihilation of all living things, including ourselves.

Honestly, why is he talking about Freud at all? Is this meant to back up a point of some sort? We're supposed to take all Freud's ideas seriously?
The name of God is laden

Bin Laden? Oh my! Freudian slip there!
Faith allows us to trust, rather, in human compassion

Yeah, of course. Faith comes from religious teachings. Religion encourages human compassion: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21791543-421,00.html
Only by placing our faith in the tiny, insignificant acts of compassion and kindness, that we survive as a community and as a human being.

So, not by placing your faith in God then? That's a relief.
dumb, blind love is man's meaning.

Oh? I thought you said it was God. You know, "the life force [...] defines all existence."
Human history is not the battle of good struggling to overcome evil. It is a battle fought by a great evil struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness.

Not good versus evil, but evil versus good. That makes perfect sense. Gotcha. Thanks.
But if what is human in human beings has not been destroyed even now, then evil will never conquer.

Faith is the sister of justice.

I can understand why some people didn't manage to read the whole of this pile of crap.
we can never know or understand the will of God.

How can God be "a human concept" then? How do you know it "defines all existence" if you don't understand it?
Most moral thinkers—from Socrates to Christ to Francis of Assisi—eschewed the written word because they knew, I suspect, that once things were written down they became, in the wrong hands, codified and used not to promote morality but conformity, subservience and repression. Writing freezes speech.

Yeah! Too right! Let's burn some books!
The moment the writers of the Gospels set down the words of Jesus they began to kill the message.

This brings whole new meaning to the term "bible bashing", doesn't it?
Beckett, like the author of Ecclesiastes, was a realist. He saw the pathetic, empty monuments we spend a lifetime building to ourselves.

And religion doesn't fall within this category? "Godot" couldn't be an allegory for anything, no?
Those who deform faith into creeds, who use it as a litmus test for institutional fidelity, root religion in a profane rather than a sacred context.

Of course. No sacred religion would expect you to follow it at the expense of any other. Right?
The problem is not religion but religious orthodoxy.

All human institutions, including the church, are inherently demonic.

The more vast our delusions about our own grandeur and importance, the more intolerant, aggressive and dangerous we become.

So, to summarise his points: humanity is evil, but with a glimmer of kindness. The Bible kills the message of God. Religion causes evil, and the more religious you are the worse it gets. OK.
Faith allows us to transcend what Flaubert said was our "mania for conclusions".

No manic conclusions from Chris Hedges in this article at all, I see. That'll be his faith stopping that, I guess.
He writes that "Islam, more than any other religion human beings have devised, has all the makings of a thoroughgoing cult of death" (P. 123).
[...] I do know the Koran is emphatic about the rights of other religions to practice their own beliefs and unequivocally condemns attacks on civilians as a violation of Islam. The Koran states that suicide, of any type, is an abomination.

Let's be clear on this. "While suicide is forbidden, martyrdom is everywhere praised, welcomed, and urged":
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html
I also know from my time in the Muslim world that the vast majority of the some 1 billion Muslims on this planet—most of whom are not Arab—are moderate, detest the violence done in the name of their religion.

I expect this is true
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070523/27580_Poll:_2_of_3_U.S._Muslim_Converts_Left_Christian_Roots.htm

and yet…
Sam's argument that atheists have a higher moral code is as specious as his attacks on Islam. Does he forget Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot?

So, only religious extremists are evil, not moderates. Yet, all atheists are represented by three of the most extreme figures in human history. Gotcha.
The danger is not Islam or Christianity or any other religion. It is the human heart—the capacity we all have for evil.

So now you're saying: humans can be evil, religion has nothing to do with it?
Religion is often a convenient vehicle for this blood lust.

Ah, so religion DOES have something to do with it.
Religious institutions often sanctify genocide, but this says more about us, about the nature of human institutions and the darkest human yearnings, than it does about religion.

It is not the evil of religion, but the inherent capacity for evil of humankind.

So it's not religion? Or is it that all humans institutions are evil including religion? Sorry, I'm lost now. What point is he making? It seems to me he wants it both ways. Humans are good, but can be evil. Religion is fine, because humans are fine, but in extremes causes evil because extreme humans are evil. Admit it, Chris Hedges, you're a Humanist but you don't want to relinquish your faith for a "human concept" and admit you're wrong about it.
The danger of Sam's simplistic worldview [...] of the forces of light battling the forces of darkness.

As opposed to your identical, if more pessimistic, worldview? "Human history is [...] a battle fought by a great evil struggling to crush a small kernel of human kindness"?
The point of religion, authentic religion, is that it is not, in the end, about us. It is about the other, about the stranger lying beaten and robbed on the side of the road.

We have forgotten who we were meant to be, who we were created to be, because we have forgotten that we find God not in ourselves, finally, but in our care for our neighbor.

The religious life is not designed to make you happy [...] It is designed to save you from yourself, to make possible human community, to lead you to understand that the greatest force in life is not power or reason but love.

Ah ha! You just realised you hadn't said a good word about religion, didn't you? And thought you'd make one up right at the end (something you accused Sam Harris of doing).

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39. Comment #44405 by ricey on May 24, 2007 at 2:38 pm

What he fails to grasp is not simply the meaning of faith ... but the supreme importance of the monotheistic traditions in creating the concept of the individual



At least they make you laugh. Sorry if someone else has already made this point, but I can't get the scene from Monty Python's Life of Brian out of my mind ...

Brian: You're all individuals!

Crowd of (Abrahimic) faith-heads in unison: Yes, we are all individuals!!!

Anything less calculated to encourage individualism than monotheistic religion is hard to imagine.

Thanks mmurray and bitbutter

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40. Comment #44406 by hopeful on May 24, 2007 at 2:39 pm

"This individualism—the belief that we can exist as distinct beings from the tribe, or the crowd, and that we are called on as individuals to make moral decisions that at times defy the clamor of the tribe or the nation—is a gift of the Abrahamic faiths."

Comment #1 by quasarsphere deserves another mention in my opinion:

"I'm no Bible scholar, but I'm fairly certain that's bollocks."

For those that know the word "bollocks" it captures the essence of this as no other word can.

And re the last paragraph I am also a committed father, and gave money to Tsunami and cancer research, do some community service, detest war and violence and I've never believed in gods and myths. I'm really tired of religion and consideration for others being mixed up. That's bollocks too.

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41. Comment #44409 by Jiten on May 24, 2007 at 2:45 pm

 avatarListen Mr Hedges,does god exist or doesn't he?If you believe he does then where is your evidence? No need for all this claptrap.What humans do is explained by human biology.And nothing makes sense in biology without Darwinian natural selection.

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42. Comment #44411 by bitbutter on May 24, 2007 at 2:56 pm

 avatar@ ricey: in the article threads like this one you need to type [blockquote]Quoted text[/blockquote] except you should substitute the square brackets for lesser and greater than symbols: '<' and '>'

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43. Comment #44412 by msv on May 24, 2007 at 3:01 pm

God is a human concept.

Look, here it's still just a concept. A fictional character in a book.

God is the name we give to our belief that life has meaning, one that transcends the world's chaos, randomness and cruelty.


Ow, now it's also a belief that life has meaning? Where did that come from? Does it have anything to do with the fictional character in the book anymore?

To argue about whether God exists or does not exist is futile. The question is not whether God exists. The question is whether we concern ourselves with, or are utterly indifferent to, the sanctity and ultimate transcendence of human existence.


Ah, now it's also the ultimate transcendence of human existence. Yes. Sure... Still talking about the fictional character in that book? Starting to look like a virus, spreading over all concepts seen as positive, rewarding.

God is that mysterious force—and you can give it many names as other religions do—which works upon us and through us to seek and achieve truth, beauty and goodness.
God is perhaps best understood as our ultimate concern, that in which we should place our highest hopes, confidence and trust.


Piling on the random positive associations.

In Exodus God says, by way of identification, "I am that I am." It is probably more accurately translated: "I will be what I will be."


Infinite number of associations!! You've outdone yourself. Spreading like a disease, claiming everything - linked with everything. Ultimate submission in a way.

God is better understood as verb rather than a noun. God is not an asserted existence but a process accomplishing itself. And God is inescapable. It is the life force that sustains, transforms and defines all existence.


Ah, you could've stopped, you've covered everything already with "I will be what I will be."

Tell me what does the god of the BIBLE have to do with these concepts? I was under the impression the bible stated god was an omnipotent being, firmly connected to our universe, not merely concepts.

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44. Comment #44413 by Bonzai on May 24, 2007 at 3:05 pm

 avatarThe church types are often complaining about the scourge of individualism as if it is a dirty word. Now according to the man individualism is a by product of the Abrahamic religions. I am confused.

In the bible God smites down people like ants and expects unquestioned obedience,--as shown in the story of Abraham sacrificing Issac. There are passages after passages commanding genocide for people belonging to tribes that worship the wrong gods. The Quran divides the world into the house of Islam and the house of war(the unbeliever) and declares war on latter. Group retribution and collective punishment is the norm in these books.

There is nothing in these religions that encourages independent thinking and non conformity,--except in those instances where conformity to God's wishes trumps conformity to man, but conformity nonetheless. The very word "Islam" means submission. Slavish obedience is the highest virtue.

It is a very strange idea of "individualism" that we derive from the Abrahamic religions.

If belief in God(s) is a delusion the Abrahamic religions were historically like epidemics of delirious brain fever that induces violent fits. The believers of Zeus and Apollo at least had much better taste.

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45. Comment #44415 by ryanbooker on May 24, 2007 at 3:13 pm

 avatarI stopped after the opening paragraph.

"I don't care what 99% of the world think religion is, I think it's some amorphous, nonsensical something or other, and I choose to change that definition whenever it suits my purpose."

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46. Comment #44418 by Fire1974 on May 24, 2007 at 3:36 pm

Sam Harris has to be absolutely sick of religious apologists dodging his logic and re-inventing a new, completely innocuous god that has nothing in common with the one believed in and worshiped by most of the population. Whatever religious organization Chris Hedges claims to represent would no more identify with his argument than Sam's.

If all god-heads believed the way Hedges does than they're all atheists and should just admit it. Hedges should lead the way. He's smart but just can't trust his own logic and that's the problem; he's not allowed to.

Same old s%#t. Just typing to get it off my chest so I don't get pent-up and bark at my wife.

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47. Comment #44420 by rufustfirefly on May 24, 2007 at 4:08 pm

These "moderate" Muslims look at Pat Robertson and Franklin Graham the same way "we" look at Osama bin Laden and Hamas. Okay. How do those moderate Muslims look at bin Laden and Hamas or the Kurds who stoned that girl to death?

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48. Comment #44421 by sillysighbean on May 24, 2007 at 4:14 pm

Why is it that I am able to read articles by Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and Dennent with no difficulty, while reading articles such as this is like trudging through mud? I am truly trying to understand both sides of the argument. Well, Dennent's 'Consciousness Explained' was a tough read for me, I am going through it again, but that is only because I know I am not that smart. I do not get the feeling he is trying to bamboozle me, like some of these other authors.

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49. Comment #44422 by Russell Blackford on May 24, 2007 at 4:32 pm

Where do you even start with this kind of rhetorical waffle? It seems to be a concoction of all things that sound nice and are likely to push emotional buttons - there is transcendent meaning in the universe, blah, blah - while giving no genuine intellectual understanding.

I would probably "lose" a debate against this guy in that I'd be uncompromising and say things that people seemingly don't want to believe. E.g., there is no "transcendent meaning". That is just as much a delusion as the idea that there is a sky god. That claim would not win me a popularity contest. I'm not even interested in making the idea sound dramatic and exciting like Sartre and Camus did, though maybe that's the way to go because, when you think about it, it actually is exciting to be liberated from all the dogma and waffle, and to realise that you have no choice, if you are honest, but to take responsibility for your own life.

Harris will doubtless find a good rhetorical package of his own. That's great. But I think it's about time we all simply faced up to the truth, however "bleak" it may appear to some: we live in a disenchanted universe - albeit one that is full of beauty and majesty, if we see it that way. There are no "meanings" save those that we create ourselves. It's entirely up to us how we live our lives, individually and collectively. There is no sky god to tell us what to do. Nor are there spooky transcendent meanings, or strange objectively prescriptive entities, somehow Out There. It really is up to us.

Just stop evading reality.

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50. Comment #44423 by kaiserkriss on May 24, 2007 at 4:44 pm

 avatarRussell Blackford Quote"But I think it's about time we all simply faced up to the truth, however "bleak" it may appear to some: we live in a disenchanted universe - albeit one that is full of beauty and majesty, if we see it that way. There are no "meanings" save those that we create ourselves. It's entirely up to us how we live our lives, individually and collectively. There is no sky god to tell us what to do. Nor are there spooky transcendent meanings, or strange objectively prescriptively entities, somehow Out There. It really is up to us." Unquote

I couldn't have put it better myself!! Once the majority of people realize this first step of taking responsibility for our own actions, the next step to atheism is a relatively small and logical one. jcw

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