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Friday, May 25, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Fighting the Fundamentalists

by Michael Ruse, csicop.org

Thanks to Ranjani for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.csicop.org/si/2007-02/fundamentalists.html

The science and religion debate in America has seen its fair share of controversy, much of it bitter. From the moment that Charles Darwin published his On the Origin of Species in 1859, Americans have debated evolution, its place and role and significance, especially with respect to Christianity. Almost immediately, two leading Harvard professors, Louis Agassiz, the transplanted Swiss ichthyologist then building the Museum of Comparative Zoology, and Asa Gray, the diminutive professor of botany, clashed over the truth of evolution. Although both appealed to scientific facts, it was clear that religious issues were close to the surface. A decade later the leading American Presbyterian theologian, Princeton Seminary professor Charles Hodge, wrote a little book titled: What is Darwinism? He answered the question himself: It is Atheism!

Before long, especially in the South and (as the country expanded) in the West, evolution was taken to be the equivalent of godlessness. The great evangelist Dwight Moody—the Billy Graham of his day—lectured on the four great evils of the age: ignoring the Sabbath, Sunday newspapers, the theater, and evolution (including atheism). As is well known, this hostility between evolution and Christianity continued into the twentieth century, most famously in 1925 in Dayton Tennessee, when the young schoolteacher John Thomas Scopes was put on trial for teaching that humans and apes share a common ancestor. Prosecuted by the Great Commoner, three-times presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan, and defended by noted freethinker Clarence Darrow, Scopes was found guilty (although the verdict was overturned on appeal) and the whole of America was riveted by the spectacle.

Many think that after the Scopes trial, Christian anti-evolutionism—such people took the Bible literally and were often known as Fundamentalists—sank with little trace. This is not true. After World War II, religiously based anti-evolutionism started to rise and gain in strength. This was in no small part because of the publication in 1961 of Genesis Flood. Coauthored by Biblical scholar John Whitcomb and hydraulic engineer Henry M. Morris, this work presented a definitive defense of a young Earth as well as a miraculous origin for the whole of life. A strong defense of Noah's Flood was also prominent, being a key part of the authors' "premillennial dispensationalism." This is a theology committed to periods of time ended by violent events, the first of which ended with the Deluge and the last anticipated in the near future ending with Armageddon, and the thousand-year rule of Jesus before the Final Judgment.

Now called creationism (often scientific creationism, to emphasize the scientific credentials and hence the appropriateness of introducing the ideas into science classrooms) things came to a head in Arkansas in 1981. A law mandating the teaching of creation science had been passed by the legislature, and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) brought suit claiming that it violated the constitutional separation of church and state. The law was declared unconstitutional. It seemed that now finally the anti-evolutionary forces were conquered. This was far from so! In 1991, Berkeley law professor Phillip Johnson published Darwin on Trial, another anti-evolutionary work, claiming now that the chief sin was a commitment to naturalism, and the fight started all over again. Revitalized, the new Christian evangelical cry was that an intelligent designer must have been responsible for the irreducible complexity of the living world. Supporters of the position—notably Lehigh University biochemist Michael Behe, author of Darwin's Black Box, and mathematician-cum-philosopher William Dembski, author of The Design Inference—gathered much support and publicity for their claims. Another court case arose in 2005, this time in Dover, Pennsylvania, with no more success than the Arkansas case. Again, it would be very foolish to think we have heard the end of the matter. George W. Bush, an ardent evangelical Christian, is sympathetic to the thinking, and has already started to load the Supreme Court with people who think that the separation of church and state has gone too far.

Our time therefore is still one when those of us who think that Biblical literalism has no place in the science classrooms of the nation should be standing together and fighting ignorance and prejudice, if only on pragmatic grounds. The big threat today to America's status is the rapidly growing economies of the East, such as China and India. Of course, one welcomes this—better by far that the rest of the world share the prosperity of the West than that it look enviously from outside. But the aim must to be to bring them up rather than us down. No greater foolishness could happen than the castration of modern science in the name of evangelical Christianity. Science secondary education in America is in bad enough shape as it is, and there is no reason to make it worse. Furthermore, scientific discoveries are among the greatest achievements of the human spirit and intellect. We owe it to our young people to share this with them, giving them the training to go on to even greater triumphs.

Yet at the moment, those of us against creationism live in a house divided. One group is made up of the ardent, complete atheists. They want no truck with the enemy, which they are inclined to define as any person of religious inclination—from literalist (like a Southern Baptist) to deist (like a Unitarian)—and they think that anyone who thinks otherwise is foolish, wrong, and immoral. Prominent members of this group include Richard Dawkins, the biologist and popular science writer; Daniel Dennett, the philosopher and also a successful popular pundit; and Jerry Coyne, the leading evolutionist. The second group is made of two subgroups. One has as members liberal Christians who think that evolution is God's way of creating. This subgroup contains the Catholic theologian John Haught, the Anglican physicist John Polkinghorne, and the late Pope John Paul II. The second subgroup contains those who have no religious belief but who think that one should collaborate with liberal Christians against a shared enemy, and who are inclined to think that science and religion are compatible. Members include Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education, the late Stephen Jay Gould, paleontologist and popular science writer, and me. (From now on, rather than drag others into the fight, I will speak only for myself.)

The rhetoric is strong and nasty. I have accused Dennett of being a bully and someone who is pig ignorant of the issues. He has told me that I stand in danger (perhaps over the point of danger) of losing the respect of those whose respect I should crave. He and Harvard linguist Steven Pinker wrote a letter to The New York Times, after a review of one of my books, regretting that something like this might receive favorable attention. Dawkins has gone even further; in his new, best-selling book, The God Delusion, Dawkins likens me to Neville Chamberlain, the British Prime Minister who tried to appease Adolf Hitler. Dawkins introduces a new norm for journalists, begging them to interview others and get the real truth if they had previously spoken to me.

Without praising or excusing myself, I can say that I have been in the trenches for a long time. I first debated biblical literalists back in 1977. One opponent was the above-mentioned Henry M. Morris. He was joined by his associate Duane T. Gish, author of Evolution: The Fossils Say No! with then more than 150,000 copies sold, according to its cover. The site was an indoor sports arena at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois, and the audience, at least 3,000, had been brought in from all over the local area and neighboring states. Before the debate, at least ten people in the stands believed in evolution, and, after the debate, at most ten of them believed in evolution. I was judged to have lost.

Undaunted, I have kept up the fight—first against these older young-Earth creationists (believing in that 6,000-year span since Adam and Eve), and later against the more sophisticated intelligent design theorists, those who argue that something (or rather Something) must have intervened to cause the irreducible complexity of organisms. Alongside such luminaries as Stephen Jay Gould, I appeared as a witness for the ACLU in the Arkansas case, testifying against a creationist law that the legislature was imposing on the children of the state. I have appeared many times on radio and television, usually debating creationists and arguing that they are not just wrong but that their position is in no way scientific. And I have produced more words than any reasonable person might be expected to read, let alone write.

It is not surprising, therefore, that I am not universally loved by all of those who do battle in today's fight in America between science and religion. It is true that the creationists have not been slow to criticize. Henry Morris, who died in 2006, accused me personally of being responsible—through my Darwinian materialism—of America's altogether-too-slack attitude toward capital punishment. Would that this were true! But the ones who really are after me are my fellow Darwinians. In a way this is odd. For the record, I am absolutely committed to the belief that science is our highest form of knowledge. I believe that Darwinian evolutionary theory is true in all basic respects, and that it applies to humankind. I have even been recently quoted (correctly) in The New York Times as saying that I believe that ethics is "an illusion of the genes to make us good social animals." And I have no religious faith at all. You could call me an atheist, although I prefer skeptic, for I simply have no answers to the ultimate questions.

I am on the outs with the militant atheist group because I do not see that committing oneself to science necessarily implies that one thinks that all of religion is false, and that those who worship a supreme being are in some respects at one with the fanatics who flew planes into the World Trade Center. Of course, I think some religious beliefs are wrong and dangerous. That is why I fight creationists. But overall, I don't think someone is silly or immoral if he or she is a practicing Christian or Jew or Muslim or whatever. Although I don't think you have to be a believer to be good, I fully accept that many believers are good because of their beliefs. Moreover, I think it is both politically and morally right to work with believers to combat ills, including creationism.

The Dawkins-Dennett school allows no compromise. Religion is false. Religion is dangerous. Religion must be fought in every way. There can be no working with the enemy. Those like me who work with religious people are like the appeasers before the Nazis. This was the message thumped out again and again at a recent meeting of true believers in San Diego, widely reported in the major newspapers [see George Johnson's report, "A Free-for-All on Science and Religion," page 24]. With some few exceptions (notably the anthropologist Melvin J. Konner) the word was that the right approach to religion in American life is unremitting hostility and attack. Only that way will the truth prevail. Sir Harry Kroto, a Nobel Prize winning colleague at my own university of Florida State, begged the John Templeton Foundation to give to Richard Dawkins its annual prize for advances in religion!

My response is in part pragmatic. The creationists and the ID supporters simply love Dawkins and his ilk. They pray that they will say more and more. Every time the atheists open their mouths they win converts to the literalist cause. The creationists have been saying all along that Darwinism equals atheism, and now the Darwinians apparently agree! Americans in the middle—meaning, generally, religious Americans in the middle—get the message that science, and Darwinism particularly, threatens their faith. Dembski once wrote to Dawkins: "I know that you personally don't believe in God, but I want to thank you for being such a wonderful foil for theism and for intelligent design more generally. In fact, I regularly tell my colleagues that you and your work are one of God's greatest gifts to the intelligent design movement. So please, keep at it!"

But pragmatic factors are not my real gripe. If I thought Dawkins and company were right, I would defend them one hundred percent and let the chips fall where they may. My real problem is one of scholarship, put simply, which is I guess what you would expect of a university professor like myself. I would be a lot more impressed with the ardent atheists if I felt that they were making a genuine effort to engage in dialog with those whom they criticize. I do not necessarily mean actual physical dialog, but at the least an intense study of the claims of those against whom they fulminate. Take, for instance, Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion, and his critiques of the various arguments for the existence of God. Why does he not acknowledge that few if any Christians have ever claimed that the proofs are the true reason for the belief in God? John Henry Newman, the great nineteenth-century English theologian, first an Anglican (Episcopalian) and then a Roman Catholic, spoke for many. About his seminal philosophical work, A Grammar of Assent, he wrote, "I have not insisted on the argument from design, because I am writing for the nineteenth century, by which, as represented by its philosophers, design is not admitted as proved. And to tell the truth, though I should not wish to preach on the subject, for forty years I have been unable to see the logical force of the argument myself. I believe in design because I believe in God; not in a God because I see design." (This is from a letter written in 1872.) He continued, "Design teaches me power, skill and goodness—not sanctity, not mercy, not a future judgment, which three are of the essence of religion."

The proofs are at best a backup for an already-received commitment. More than this, the proofs are a lot more subtle than these critics recognize. Take the cosmological argument, for example. From at least the time of Saint Augustine, around 400 a.d., theologians have been wrestling with the sense in which God can be said to be both necessary and eternal. Saint Augustine had a very sophisticated theory that entailed God being outside time—that is why Augustine would not have found the idea of evolution threatening, because for his God the thought of creation, the act of creation, and the product of creation are as one. Augustine explicitly claimed that God created seeds of life that then unfurled. The point is that for Augustine—and even more for Aquinas (1225—1274)—God is a stopping point in the chain of causation. The argument was that things have a cause and we must have some cause of the world in which we live. An infinite causal chain is no solution. Hence, there must be such a being that breaks the chain, namely the eternal God.

You may not like this argument and want to challenge it. I think I would. But I don't find it stupid, and I do find it worthy of careful study. I want to dig into what the notion of necessary existence might mean and whether in this day of modern physics it makes sense to talk of things being outside time. (Of course it makes sense to talk of things outside time; 2+2=4 is outside time. It never became true and will never become false. The question is whether this sort of thinking can be transferred to God.) My point is simply that if you are going to consider religion the chief cause of the world's ills, then you owe it to yourself and to others to take seriously the claims of religion, and this I do not think is done. I fear that emotion rules rationality, the very sin of which the critics accuse the religious! In other words, I start to suspect that these people are in their way are tarred with the same features of which they accuse the creationists. There is a dogmatism, a refusal to listen to others, a contempt for nonbelievers, a feeling that they alone have the truth, that is the mark of so many of the cults and sects that have sprung on American soil since the nation's founding.

Blind religious conviction is a terrible threat in American society today. What we need is reason and cool thinking. Science is the highest form, even if not necessarily the only form. But let us not mistake science for scientism, the belief that science and science alone has all of the answers. Let us not think that those suspicious or rejecting of scientism are wrong, verging on immoral. And let us not say that those who are prepared to work with people who think that science does not have all of the answers are therefore akin to wimps groveling before Hitler. Indeed, to push the analogy, I would say rather that we are Churchillian rather than Chamberlain-like. When Hitler attacked Russia, England and America gave aid to Stalin. It was not that they particularly liked Stalin or his system, but they worked on the principle that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Fundamentalism, creationism, intelligent design theory—these are the real threats. Please God—or non-God—let us quit fighting among ourselves and get on with the real job that faces us.

Comments 1 - 17 of 17 |

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1. Comment #44588 by Peacebeuponme on May 25, 2007 at 5:11 am

You could call me an atheist, although I prefer skeptic, for I simply have no answers to the ultimate questions.

What are these ultimate questions? On what criteria do you decide that they are ultimate or more important than other questions?

Personally, a christian's ultimate question is my redundant question. I think there are a lot of people for whom "Will Arsenal win the European Cup next year?" is more important than "Why are we here?" and I think that's a good thing.

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2. Comment #44606 by MIND_REBEL on May 25, 2007 at 5:29 am

 avatarRuse is a sellout. I don't trust anyone that declines to call themselves an athiest. It doesn't make sense. Why not? I bet he was raised religious and is still suffering the indoctrinazation after effects. Either way, he's done some harm to the movement and has taken his name off the list of people that want to help the world.

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3. Comment #44607 by CJ22 on May 25, 2007 at 5:30 am

 avatar"When Hitler attacked Russia, England and America gave aid to Stalin. It was not that they particularly liked Stalin or his system, but they worked on the principle that the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Yes, and then spent the next 50 years locked in a cold-war with the same system they'd supported! So, come the day when secular and moderate allies finally defeat the evils of fundementalism, we can look forward to spending years wishing we hadn't listened to the idea that the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Foolish example.

Moderate god-botherers are worse than fundementalists. At least a fundy is firm in his convictions, and you can deal with him on that basis. Your moderate's world-view twists and turns with the wind - you can't 'educate-away' what you can't even define or grasp.

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4. Comment #44609 by elvenearth on May 25, 2007 at 5:30 am

Comment #44588 by Peacebeuponme on May 25, 2007 at 5:11 am

"Will Arsenal win the European Cup next year?"


Such questions are unlikely to be keeping the attention of philosophers a few thousand years from now. Most of us remember and celebrate, after all, the achievements of Plato, Aristotle and Epicurus rather than the achievements of athletes in the ancient Olympics (Nero notwithstanding :P). And of course few of us remember the great questions considered by ancient sports fans. Personally I'm quite happy about that.

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5. Comment #44611 by jonecc on May 25, 2007 at 5:34 am

I see absolutely no reason to pander to this kind of ludicrous charlatanism. Any time we give deluded people an inch, they take a mile. So let's all agree to stand firm on the evidence. There is no way Arsenal will win the European Cup next year.

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6. Comment #44613 by LookToWindward on May 25, 2007 at 5:35 am

Poor Richard can't win, can he? Attempt to address theological rationalisations for belief in gods and he is lambasted by people like Ruse for not addressing the 'real' reasons why the average person believes. Talk about the real reasons, and he's accused of failing to examine the nuanced intellectualising of modern theological discourse.

The main point that people like Ruse have missed is that non-believers have been pandering to believers and forming alliances with liberals against fanatics for centuries, with no apparent stamping out of fanaticism. If nothing else, Dawkins', Dennett's, Hitchens' and Harris' rhetoric (among others) has massively raised awareness among non-believers both of the dangers and the issues involved. How can he (Ruse) expect to get anywhere with his agenda if nobody's even listening?

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7. Comment #44615 by Peacebeuponme on May 25, 2007 at 5:39 am

I was making no claims to the academic interest, or the value of such questions to others and the greater search for truth. I'm just saying that how and who decides what is important/ultimate?

Most of us enjoy thinking about things and are interested in the answers to questions about the origin of the universe. I still don't see how you can objectively call them important. After I take my least breath, any knowledge I have built up is irrelevant. That's not to say I am not interested when I am alive. I just don't believe you can attach any intrinsic, objective importance to anything.

For the record I had had a choice between two envlopes, one containing the answer to the origin of the universe and one containing the results to all sportig events for the next year, clearly I would choose the former. The latter would be better for the quality of my life though.

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8. Comment #44619 by Peacebeuponme on May 25, 2007 at 5:41 am

jonecc - That is disrespectful. I demand your reverence to my devoutly held views.

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9. Comment #44624 by Russell Blackford on May 25, 2007 at 5:45 am

This is an unhappy situation. I like Ruse (or my internal model of him) and his work a lot, and it's very unfortunate that he's outside the tent. But I guess nothing can be done about it, if he feels so strongly about tactical and intellectual issues such as he's described.

Alas, I don't see how the way he has written this article, e.g. accusing people of bullying and of "scientism" is going to lead to the reconciliation that he asks for.

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10. Comment #44627 by Tomcat on May 25, 2007 at 5:48 am

I applaud Ruse for writing this. I don't agree with everything he said, but today's atheists are too quick to condemn true allies in this war on irrationality simply because they are more sensitive to the importance or religion to some people, and they refuse to dehumanize and mock God-believers even though he disagrees with them.

This essay is a call for sensitivity in dialog and diplomacy, without compromise on the fundamentals and purity of what we believe as atheists. He may hold to different truths than I, but it is a call to cooperation nonetheless. And it can be done, but those who insult their allies in this struggle for truth are NOT helping the progress towards results.

Those who say Ruse is a sellout: you may disagree with him, but there are far better results to be achieved if you treat him as the friend, ally, and colleague he truly is. Count your blessings, atheists. We have very few, and it may be too late to erase the simple divisions that keep us from bringing about any of the results we are hoping for.

In order to truly make an impact in a theist-run world, we must be able to show sensitivity to the importance of religion to those on the other side of the table, but resolve to respectfully disagree. This is the path to RESULTS

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11. Comment #44681 by jonecc on May 25, 2007 at 7:16 am

It seems to me that there's a lot of different questions all mixed together here.

To some extent, we're talking about a collective effort to apprehend the nature of the world around us through reason and evidence. In this respect, the relevant metric is not how many people agree with us, but how good our models are, how well they explain things.

To some extent, we're talking about a political campaign to make religion history. In this respect, the relevant metric is precisely how many people agree with us, and how far we succeed in freeing humanity from religious influence.

To some extent, we're talking about reducing the negative social impacts of religion. In this respect, people who believe in a benevolent, easy-going God who likes us to relax on the beach are clearly a step up from people who think he wants us to persecute gay people and stone adulterous women.

To some extent, we're talking about making the world a better place generally. In this respect, the relevant metric is the quality of life that people experience. Even if someone is a total fundamentalist religious nutjob, we'd prefer it if they were a religious nutjob who recycled. From this perspective, the newfound interest of some evangelical Christians in environmental and social justice issues is a positive step.

Does this seem like a reasonable exposition of the tactical question?

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12. Comment #44724 by ghostbuster on May 25, 2007 at 8:22 am

It would be acceptable if religion were kept to one's self all the time; but it never happens that way. As a manipulative tool, even those who have part of their baloney detectors damaged can be more easily swayed into doing terrible things by appealing to the dectector's parts that are damaged. Somewhat in the same manner as propaganda does. Many populations of Europe prior to WW11 swallowed both, easily so, and we know the results. One can whip up the frenzies of people much more easily with lies than with truth--witch-burnings, political scourges, religious wars, terrorism in all its forms, including economic terrorism (we have to bring them capitalist wealth), propaganda terrorism (we have to bring them freedom), religious terrorism (we have to convert them to the real God), cultural terrorism (my way or the highway), resource terrorism (we'll take but won't give back), ethinic terrorism (Jews run the world so let's get rid of Jews), police/military terrorism (my way or the highway to basically enforce all of the above).
All of the above have their own forms of baloney that can sway the masses to do ugly things or give the masses the idea that doing ugly things is the lesser evil. Then it's done. Religion just happens to be the easiest. Would one say it is all right to be a little psychopathic? A bit paranoid? Or to run a powerful nation by someone a bit stupid?
No. It would be all right if you kept those things from affecting other people's welfare. But the facts say otherwise.

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13. Comment #44758 by Roger Stanyard on May 25, 2007 at 9:00 am

 avatarI think some of the people in this forum need to get sorted out in ther minds what battles they are fighting. If you want to fight organised religion feel free.

If you want to fight creationism, though, its a different battle and you will fail unless you get everyone onside who you can. It is a war and you are turning your back not just on Ruse but the majority of the population.

If you've ever organised a strike you'll know that at the end of the day the outcome is determined by how many you have on your side of the picket line. If you think you can be choosy about who you have on your side of the picket line, you'll fail - spectacularly. Your not in a debating society. It's a war and throwing away the means of war is just suicide.

I went through this debate last summer when I helped set up the British Centre for Science Education. Yep, we had contacts with the NCSE in the USA, went along to see PZ Myers, Larry Moran and others. It didn't take us long to figure out that the whole shooting much was doomed to failure unless we acted as a single issue organisation with as many as we could get onside.

When it comes to creationism the battle is between extreme religious fundamentalism and the rest of the world (including the religious). If you think it is between religion and atheism, you've just handed over your biggest ally, mainstream religion, into the arms of your enemy, fundamentalism.

You don't win wars by turning on your allies.

Just add up the numbers in the USA. There are some 30m atheists/skeptics there. At the other end of the spectrum of religious opinion that are about 30m fundamentalists if you take the US evengelical alliance as a proxy. That leaves 240m who go along with religion. If you attack that 240m then you are automatically outnumbered because a whole pile of them will back the fundies instead.

It's worse than that, though. The skeptics and atheists are weak. Organising them is like herding cats. They have no institutional basis, no newspapers, no TV channels, no vast piles of cash. The fundies do, though.

I was told a week or so back by a senior theologian at the Sorbonne that the US fundamentalists are willing and prepared to pour billions into Europe. How well organised are the atheists and sceptics to fight this when it happens? They are not and everyone knows it.

This month we have had millions in Turkey demonstrate in favour of secularism. They were not protesting against Islam and you can bet your bottom dollar that a vast number of those who demonstrated would call themselves Muslim. When was the last time millions of atheists marched in their own mass demonstrations against the excesses of religion?

For what it is worth, I happen to be an atheist because that is what I feel comfortable with as a result of having spent the best part of an inquisitive lifetime trying to learn and understand.

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14. Comment #44779 by reason-first on May 25, 2007 at 9:24 am

Dembski once wrote to Dawkins: "I know that you personally don't believe in God, but I want to thank you for being such a wonderful foil for theism and for intelligent design more generally. In fact, I regularly tell my colleagues that you and your work are one of God's greatest gifts to the intelligent design movement. So please, keep at it!"

I've read this claim before, but I wonder. Would it be wise of Dembski - if RD really was playing into his hands - to give the game away? Might RD not realize how helpful he was to creationism and as a consequence change his tactics?

RD invokes critical thinking in people. What can be wrong with that? Only those incapable of (critical) thinking would be apalled by his outspoken manner and driven into the creationist camp if they do not belong there already. So nothing is lost.

Of course, RD accused Ruse of appeasement policy towards the moderate believers, so Ruse feels the need to defend himself, however feeble the effort may be.

As RD convincingly pointed out in TGD, there is no such thing as NOMA (non-overlapping magisteria). So why join forces with people whose intellectual basis is simply wrong? Make them realize that they indeed are to be blamed for at least some of the mischief committed by fundamentalist faithheads.

As long as they do not try their utmost to silence people like the late Falwell or Robertson they deserve no respect and it would be a mistake to cooperate with them.

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15. Comment #44790 by quork on May 25, 2007 at 9:43 am

Americans in the middle—meaning, generally, religious Americans in the middle—get the message that science, and Darwinism particularly, threatens their faith. Dembski once wrote to Dawkins: "I know that you personally don't believe in God, but I want to thank you for being such a wonderful foil for theism and for intelligent design more generally. In fact, I regularly tell my colleagues that you and your work are one of God's greatest gifts to the intelligent design movement. So please, keep at it!"

If I had an argument that required the taking of William Dembski at face value, I would rethink my argument.

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16. Comment #44879 by arildno on May 25, 2007 at 12:43 pm

Of course there exist religion and religion, each different from the other.
However, highly RATIONALIZED religious beliefs are not in the slightest any more RATIONAL than literalism.

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17. Comment #44948 by Russell Blackford on May 25, 2007 at 4:14 pm

^That's not really true, you know. There's a difference between being rational and being correct. Moderate religionists who try to square their core beliefs with science have a worldview that's incorrect, and their methodology may well be hopeless in the long run, but in most cases it's going much too far to accuse them of being irrational. It's nothing like holding onto the literal truth of the Bible in direct contradiction to whatever emerges from rational inquiry.

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