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Monday, May 15, 2006 | Reason : Children and Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Religion's Real Child Abuse

by Richard Dawkins

In the wake of the current scandal over child abuse by priests , I have had a letter from an American woman in her mid forties who was brought up Roman Catholic. She has two strong recollections from when she was seven. She was sexually abused by her parish priest in his car. And around the same time a little schoolfriend of hers, who had tragically died, went to hell because she was a Protestant. Or so my correspondent was led to believe by the then official doctrine of her church. Her view now is that, of these two examples of Roman Catholic child abuse, the one physical and the other mental, the second was by far the worst. She writes:

"Being fondled by the priest simply left the impression (from the mind of a 7 year old) as 'yuchy' while the memory of my friend going to hell was one of cold, immeasurable fear. I never lost sleep because of the priest ? but I spent many a night being terrified that the people I loved would go to Hell. It gave me nightmares."


I am sure her experience is far from unique. And what if we assume a less altruistic child, worried about her own eternity rather than a friend's? Odious as the physical abuse of children by priests undoubtedly is, I suspect that it may do them less lasting damage than the mental abuse of bringing them up Catholic in the first place.

Happily I was spared the misfortune of a Roman Catholic upbringing (Anglicanism is a significantly less noxious strain of the virus). Being fondled by the Latin master in the Squash Court was a disagreeable sensation for a nine-year-old, a mixture of embarrassment and skin-crawling revulsion, but it was certainly not in the same league as being led to believe that I, or someone I knew, might go to everlasting fire. As soon as I could wriggle off his knee, I ran to tell my friends and we had a good laugh, our fellowship enhanced by the shared experience of the same sad pedophile. I do not believe that I, or they, suffered lasting, or even temporary damage from this disagreeable physical abuse of power. Given the Latin Master's eventual suicide, maybe the damage was all on his side.

Of course I accept that his misdemeanors, although by today's standards enough to earn imprisonment followed by a life sentence of persecution by vigilantes, were mild compared to those committed by some priests now in the news. I am in no position to make light of the horrific experiences of their altar-boy victims. But reports of child abuse cover a multitude of sins, from mild fondling to violent buggery, and I am sure many of those cases now embarrassing the church fall at the mild end of the spectrum . Doubtless, too, some fall at the violent end, which is terrible but I would make two points about it. First, just because some pedophile assaults are violent and painful, it doesn't mean that all are. A child too young to notice what is happening at the hands of a gentle pedophile will have no difficulty at all in noticing the pain inflicted by a violent one. Phrases like 'predatory monster' are not discriminating enough, and are framed in the light of adult hang-ups. Second (and this is the point with which I began) the mental abuse constituted by an unsubstantiated threat of violence and terrible pain, if sincerely believed by the child, could easily be more damaging than the physical actuality of sexual abuse. An extreme threat of violence and pain is precisely what the doctrine of hell is. And there is no doubt at all that many children sincerely believe it, often continuing right through adulthood and old age until death finally releases them.

It will be said that the Catholic Church no longer preaches hell fire in its full horror. That depends on how upmarket is your area and how progressive your priest . But eternal punishment certainly was the normal doctrine dished out to congregations, including terrified children, back in the time when many of the priests now facing expulsion or prosecution committed their physical abuses. Most of the victims bringing or supporting lawsuits are now in their middle years. They therefore, along with many others who were never physically abused, probably experienced mental terrorism of the hell fire type. The long retrospect of the law entitles middle-aged victims to lucrative redress, decades after they suffered physically. Nobody thinks the physical injuries of sexual abuse could possibly last decades , so the damages now being claimed have to be the mental consequences of the original physical abuse. A typical claimant, now 54, said that his "life was marred by inexplicable confusions, anger, depression and lost faith." (Parenthetically, one can't help marvelling at the idea of a life being marred by lost faith. Perhaps it would get the sympathy of a jury.) But the point is this. If you can sue for the long-term mental damage caused by physical child abuse, why should you not sue for the long-term mental damage caused by mental child abuse? Only a minority of priests abuse the bodies of the children in their care. But how many priests abuse their minds? Why aren't Catholics and ex-Catholics lining up to sue the church into the ground, for a lifetime of psychological damage?

I am not advocating this course of action. Much as I would like to see the Roman Catholic Church ruined, I hate opportunistically retrospective litigation even more. Lawyers who grow fat by digging dirt on long-forgotten wrongs, and hounding their aged perpetrators, are no friends of mine. All I am doing is calling attention to an anomaly. By all means, let's kick a nasty institution when it is down, but there are better ways than litigation. And an obsessive concentration on sexual abuse by priests is in danger of blinding us to all their other forms of child abuse.

The threat of eternal hell is an extreme example of mental abuse, just as violent sodomy is an extreme example of physical abuse. Most physical abuse is milder, and so is most of the mental abuse inherent in a typical religious education. The priest who urged a 14-year-old altar boy to give him oral sex, "blessing it as a way to receive Holy Communion " wasn't only abusing the trust normally enjoyed by any teacher, youth leader or scoutmaster. He was cashing in on the years of religious brainwashing that the child had endured as a cradle Catholic. Holy Communion: nice one! But again, only an extreme example of what churches ? and also mosques and synagogues ? do to child minds in their care, in the normal course of events.

'What shall we tell the children?' is a superb polemic on how religions abuse the minds of children, by the distinguished psychologist Nicholas Humphrey. It was originally delivered as a lecture in aid of Amnesty International, and has now been reissued as a chapter of his book, The Mind Made Flesh, just published by Oxford University Press. It is also available on the worldwide web and I strongly recommend it. Humphrey argues that, in the same way as Amnesty works tirelessly to free political prisoners the world over, we should work to free the children of the world from the religions which, with parental approval, damage minds too young to understand what is happening to them. He is right, and the same lesson should inform our discussions of the current pedophile brouhaha. Priestly groping of child bodies is disgusting. But it may be less harmful in the long run than priestly subversion of child minds.

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1. Comment #409 by G. Tingey on September 28, 2006 at 8:02 am

An apparently US-type Christian group have set up shop in the UK, determined to peddle lies to schoolchildren.

See ….

http://www.truthinscience.org.uk

http://www.truthinscience.org.uk/site/content/category/18/52/65/

Their stuff on the lower, biology section is truly dangerous, and full of lies.

I hardly need add, they are all the usual lies, referring to the Peppered Moth survey (someone please inform Michael Majerus), claiming there are “alternatives” to evolution, horse evolution, with a particularly egregious diagram at fig. 2. , Haeckel’s drawings (under “embryology”), the tendentious and misleading short section on hominid fossils, and (I suspect) a quote-mine and selective use of text in the section on homology in vertebrate limbs.

Etcetera.

Their title, should, of course, be “Lies in Christianity”, but I’ll let someone else call them that – then I can be a non-expert witness at the libel trial.

These lying conmen (and I suspect con-women) need to be stopped, RIGHT NOW.

G. Tingey.

2. Comment #2105 by Rachael on October 18, 2006 at 9:26 pm

Here are several fragments from my experiences, to add to the discussion, in hopes that some reader may find them useful:

I spent many nights anxiety ridden, sometimes crying myself to sleep. In my sleep I would dream of the apocalypse, being left behind in the rapture, agonised friends screaming from hell "Why didn't you tell me?", and demonic attacks on my person. (I was told that Satan or his minions might apparate at any moment, should my faith - not even the size of a mustard seed - falter.)

For a period, I felt certain God was calling me to be a missionary. In my limited understanding of the world, I believed being a missionary meant going to China in order to face excruciating torture for believing in Jesus, and then eventually dying. I cried and prayed to God that he allow me to serve him another way, and then struggled with the guilt cause by my own lack of enthusiasm to preform God's will. (I had been trained to be willing to die, enthusiastically, for Jesus, by age six.)

Because even thoughts are sins, I adopted the OCD-like behavior of trying to neutralize sinful thoughts with 'pure' ones. An irony of these thoughts, of course, is that my fervour to avoid ever having them gave them rise to more!

...

I was raised as an Evangelical/Pentecostal type. As a sufferer of childhood sexual, physical and emotional abuse, as well as the mental abuse of my religious upbringing - I can vouch that in my own experience (and I am sure it different for others) the latter has been immeasurably the most damaging.

As fellow victims may know, what I have described is not even the iceberg's tip.

3. Comment #2106 by Rachael on October 18, 2006 at 9:27 pm

Here are several fragments from my experiences, to add to the discussion, in hopes that some reader may find them useful:

I spent many nights anxiety ridden, sometimes crying myself to sleep. In my sleep I would dream of the apocalypse, being left behind in the rapture, agonised friends screaming from hell "Why didn't you tell me?", and demonic attacks on my person. (I was told that Satan or his minions might apparate at any moment, should my faith - not even the size of a mustard seed - falter.)

For a period, I felt certain God was calling me to be a missionary. In my limited understanding of the world, I believed being a missionary meant going to China in order to face excruciating torture for believing in Jesus, and then eventually dying. I cried and prayed to God that he allow me to serve him another way, and then struggled with the guilt cause by my own lack of enthusiasm to preform God's will. (I had been trained to be willing to die, enthusiastically, for Jesus, by age six.)

Because even thoughts are sins, I adopted the OCD-like behavior of trying to neutralize sinful thoughts with 'pure' ones. An irony of these thoughts, of course, is that my fervour to avoid ever having them gave them rise to more!

...

I was raised as an Evangelical/Pentecostal type. As a sufferer of childhood sexual, physical and emotional abuse, as well as the mental abuse of my religious upbringing - I can vouch that in my own experience (and I am sure it different for others) the latter has been immeasurably the most damaging.

As fellow victims may know, what I have described is not even the iceberg's tip.

4. Comment #10018 by Anat on November 26, 2006 at 10:21 pm

And what evidence is there that hell is a real place rather than a product of the imaginations of people attempting to control others?

5. Comment #13019 by caraujo on December 15, 2006 at 4:40 am

This discussion of Hell and Jesus is very contradictory! Obvious to some. One way I like to think of a belief in Jesus is that he gave the people in society 2000 years ago away to break from the traditions of religions requiring sacrafice and the focus on hell. Whether Jesus is actually Gods son or not, I think the beief in Jesus made some significant changes for the world. I don't think the New Testament has the focus of Hell as the Old Testament does. But sounds like religions are not letting go of the power of the threat of hell. I think this sight is great - liberating.

Other Comments by caraujo

6. Comment #13039 by Logicel on December 15, 2006 at 6:25 am

 avatarKwirth said, "If you knew the Black Plague was killing people just 10 miles down the road, would you take the time to explain to everyone you met what this disease does, no matter how awful it was, if doing so would cause many to flee and thus save their lives? In fact, wouldn't you make SURE everyone understood what the consequences of staying put would be before you told them about the quickest and surest road to safety?"
_______

The important word here is 'surest'. Many of the above testimonials on this thread emphasized that their mental and emotional torture was because they could never be SURE what they had to do to escape Hell.

I remember my mother saying to me when I was around 12, that her parish prient advised her to read the Bible to help her deal with a serious problem she was having with my father. She told me that the biblical passages that he recommended made no sense, and was not applicable to her particular problem, and that they actually appeared immoral to her. And she had no intention of following the suggestion. So of course she had to worry that she would wind up in hell.


This insightful and generous post by NoLongerHaveBelief on another discussion thread here echos my point very well:

"I remember as a kid, reading that Gideon Bible claptrap I was given from school. At the front, it had passages to turn to, when in times of trouble/ anger/ loneliness etc., Try and understand it! PURE contradictory and confusing text. The Bible makes as much sense to myself as does a chocolate teapot! Infact, a chocolate teapot would be MORE use than the Bible. Certainly would be entertaining... :-)"

Other Comments by Logicel

7. Comment #17877 by Linda on January 17, 2007 at 7:07 am

Stockholm Syndrome & the spread or reinforcement of religion

Watching that news report last week of the boy from Missouri found after missing for 5 years thanks to luck and police work and not a miracle (US news reports) made me wonder about why he didn't simply go home. It seemed that he had a cell phone and mobility and surely there isn't a parent out there who has not taught their children to memorize name, address and phone number. Some of the psychoanalysis of the mindset of the captive suggests that the captor uses terror to spook the mind of the child implanting in them the belief that their parents aren't looking for them and don't care that they are gone.

This then seems to be the effect of imposing religion on young minds through the use of terror. Stories of hell fire, damnation and threats of a violent, monstrous invisible man loosing his temper and condemning children to eternal misery after death are extremely mean and cruel yet illustrate why it is so hard for kids to quit religious early childhood brain washing. The fact that the parents are ignorant and have only thought through eliminating tales of enchantment like Cinderella etc. but can't realize and let go of the religious ones is the primary cause of generational religious manipulation.

Religion offers dangerous ideologies and superstitions and like sex and alcohol should be off limits to children. I do not support banning anything when it comes to consenting adults though.

There is no reason to either respect religion or to allow superstition peddlers to continue manipulation of the emotionally immature or influence governments.
The Stockholm Syndrome by definition describes the behaviour of kidnap victims who, over time, become sympathetic to their captors.

Other Comments by Linda

8. Comment #18400 by kwirth on January 20, 2007 at 3:17 pm

 avatarLast summer I enjoyed a pleasant visit to the Seattle zoo with my wife. At one point we stopped to get a bite to eat, and were standing in line at an ice cream counter. Ahead of us were 3 young boys of about the age of 8 or 9. They were all leaning up at the counter, with their backs to us, trying to decide which ice cream they should choose. Being the outgoing person that I am, I spoke up and recommended a flavor to one of them. Immediately, they all turned around with a wide-eyed look of absolute terror on their faces, and literally began to shrink away from us in dread fear of this stranger speaking to them. I assured them that I was just being friendly and making conversation with them, but nothing I said reassured them. They refused to talk with me (they spoke native English, so, they understood me). Now, they had no reason to fear me - I was, after all, standing in line with my wife in a crowded public place. No matter – they remained in such a state of terror that they could hardly continue making their purchase.

Upon later reflection of this incident, it occurred to me that the parents of these boys had perhaps deeply ingrained in them the notion that there is an acute danger in talking to strangers in ANY situation (or at least, this is how they probably processed that conversation). I can hear a lot of parents murmuring something like "yeah, well, being scared of ALL strangers is a small price to pay if it prevents a child from getting abducted and killed." I understand this, but I also somewhat disagree. Parents need to teach their children how to discriminate between situations where it's probably OK and not OK to talk to a stranger, or they could be terrified of everyone in every situation.

One other quick example…

I vividly recall, as part of my public school driver education while a young teenager, watching movies of people who had been gruesomely maimed and disfigured in automobile accidents. The purpose of those movies was to give us all something to think about so we'd turn out to be careful drivers. Based on the drivers I see on the road today, I don't think those movies were were either widely viewed or else had little impact. The idea behind showing them to us was clearly "let's SCARE our kids into confronting the ugly reality of what could happen to them if they don't drive carefully".

Now to the point about Hell...

First off, talking to children about Hell (or Heaven, for that matter) isn't akin to talking about a Cinderella fairy tale, and it isn't about "abusing children" as Dawkins insists (unless the discussion with children on the subject of Hell is conducted without any regard for their sensibilities), nor is it about "implanting beliefs", "imposing religion", using "threats" or "terror" to manipulate the minds of children. Yes, those types of behaviors DO unfortunately occur when some parents talk to their kids about Hell, and I certainly do not condone that. But just because someone MIS-uses a baseball bat to club others over the head does not mean we should all stop playing baseball.

The need to warn others about Hell still remains, regardless of how ineptly some people may communicate that warning. But I don't know if there is a particularly pleasant way to discuss the topic of Hell - which is probably why so many poeple avoid such conversations in the first place.

Secondly, the real point of all this is: Hell IS a real destination, just like going to any travel destination on this planet, though it's not like we have a bunch of handy travel brochures available describing all the scenic 'hot spots' of Hell.

And… we do have an eyewitness who claims to have been there, who says it IS a real place, and tells us something about the awfulness of it. Would we believe a report about Hell based on the credibility of someone with an impeccable reputation?

Jesus Christ has been to Hell and back, and here is what HE had to say about it:

"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments" Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
"place of torment" Luke 16:28
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

The question you need to be asking yourself is, WHAT IF JESUS WAS TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT HELL?

If Hell IS a place like what Jesus described, then warning someone about the danger of going there, and how to avoid it, is a SERVICE to them.

Like any good scientist, I'd make sure I did a VERY good job of investigating this issue before I came to any quick (or dismissive) conclusions that Hell is just a form of religious brain-washing.

Dawkins cries out that "the threat of eternal hell is an extreme example of mental abuse, just as violent sodomy is an extreme example of physical abuse", but his remarks assume that this is because there really is no such place as Hell.

But WHAT IF he is wrong about this?

I say he is.

Other Comments by kwirth

9. Comment #18402 by Logicel on January 20, 2007 at 3:33 pm

 avatarKwirth, all your objections have been covered by Dawkins and many posters at this site. If you seriously want to follow your line of 'reasoning' then research this site and read The God Delusion.

If not, then continue to believe in your superstitions. But non-thesists will continue to challenge your nonsense at every available chance and work as hard as they can to keep religious superstitions out of the public sphere.

Other Comments by Logicel

10. Comment #18410 by NJS on January 20, 2007 at 4:25 pm

Kwirth:

The kids were absolutely right to avoid talking to someone as irrational and dangerous as you.

Other Comments by NJS

11. Comment #18415 by Russell Blackford on January 20, 2007 at 4:49 pm

Once again, it's salutary to see examples of the mindset we are up against.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

12. Comment #18418 by Logicel on January 20, 2007 at 5:16 pm

 avatar"They were all leaning up at the counter, with their backs to us, trying to decide which ice cream they should choose. Being the outgoing person that I am, I spoke up and recommended a flavor to one of them."
________

Christians must have a meddling gene albeit a very friendly one of course. They not only apparently know what is the best ice cream flavor for anyone to savour but also the best god among the many on offer with which to blindly stuff yourself.

Other Comments by Logicel

13. Comment #18436 by kwirth on January 20, 2007 at 7:57 pm

 avatarMeddling? LOL.

Frankly, I was just hoping to help them make a decision that they were clearly having difficulty with.

As for my objections being "covered" by Dawkins, I have no doubt that he has done so. But it certainly does no harm to contest his point of view.

My challenge remains - if Dawkins is wrong, then you lose your life. Dismissing my comments means you're willing to bet your LIFE that Dawkins is right and I am wrong. This is what it all boils down to.

I reiterate my comment made in this thread on 26 November 2005

"The shame is not in presenting the awfulness of Hell to our children, rather the shame lies in failing to help them understand how to escape from it, and thereby allowing them to continue wallowing in the fear of Hell and an eternity spent in it."


Other Comments by kwirth

14. Comment #18439 by Ben Jennings on January 20, 2007 at 8:31 pm

 avatarkwirth: "My challenge remains - if Dawkins is wrong, then you lose your life. Dismissing my comments means you're willing to bet your LIFE that Dawkins is right and I am wrong. This is what it all boils down to."

Yes, indeed, when you grill a theist for long enough, Pascal's Wager is PRECISELY what their supposedly solemn and noble devotion boils down to. You could not have expressed it better!

Atheists, on the other hand, have the moral and intellectual fortitude to recognise Pascal's Wager for the load of tripe that it is.

kwirth, until you can actually provide a shred of proof that hell exists then I'm afraid you don't have a leg to stand on. Do you understand this?

Threatening children with hell and telling them how they can avoid it is no different to saying they'll be murdered by a vampire if they go outside without wearing garlic. Each scenario is equally likely to be true.

Other Comments by Ben Jennings

15. Comment #18447 by roach on January 20, 2007 at 11:56 pm

I wish I could claim I came up with this argument myself but I can't. I also can't remember the name of the guy who said it (he appears in The God Who Wasn't There). Anyway, it went something like this...

When you think about it, there really is no difference between Heaven and Hell. Let's assume that what the Bible says about Heaven and Hell is true. And let's say I was no different than I am right now but I believed in God and Jesus so when I die I go to Heaven. Great. But knowing that millions (billions?) of people are being punished and tortured for eternity in the fires of hell and knowing that there is absolutely nothing I could do to help them wouldn't be Heaven. To me, that would be Hell.

Other Comments by roach

16. Comment #18453 by Logicel on January 21, 2007 at 1:45 am

 avatarSince Kwirth is regaling us with re-iterated comments, I shall do so also regarding that 'informing' people is ok if you got a 'good' reason as long as you GIVE THEM A CLEAR WAY to avoid the terrible event you BELIEVE is waiting for them:

19. Comment #13039 by Logicel on December 15, 2006 at 6:25 am
Kwirth said, "If you knew the Black Plague was killing people just 10 miles down the road, would you take the time to explain to everyone you met what this disease does, no matter how awful it was, if doing so would cause many to flee and thus save their lives? In fact, wouldn't you make SURE everyone understood what the consequences of staying put would be before you told them about the quickest and surest road to safety?"
_______

The important word here is 'surest'. Many of the above testimonials on this thread emphasized that their mental and emotional torture was because they could never be SURE what they had to do to escape Hell.

I remember my mother saying to me when I was around 12, that her parish prient advised her to read the Bible to help her deal with a serious problem she was having with my father. She told me that the biblical passages that he recommended made no sense, and was not applicable to her particular problem, and that they actually appeared immoral to her. And she had no intention of following the suggestion. So of course she had to worry that she would wind up in hell.


This insightful and generous post by NoLongerHaveBelief on another discussion thread here echos my point very well:

"I remember as a kid, reading that Gideon Bible claptrap I was given from school. At the front, it had passages to turn to, when in times of trouble/ anger/ loneliness etc., Try and understand it! PURE contradictory and confusing text. The Bible makes as much sense to myself as does a chocolate teapot! Infact, a chocolate teapot would be MORE use than the Bible. Certainly would be entertaining... :-)"

Other Comments by Logicel

17. Comment #18454 by Logicel on January 21, 2007 at 1:59 am

 avatarXnity not only tortures people as they did with my wonderful mother with drumming in eternal damnation every chance those supporters of religious superstitions have, Xnity gives no clear way to avoid the damnation because there are so many interpretations from the various Xian sects and so many interpretations of the interpretations that clarity is non-existent in Xnity.

Other Comments by Logicel

18. Comment #18455 by Logicel on January 21, 2007 at 2:05 am

 avatarAs I said, Xians seem to carry a 'meddling' gene--they are so interested in what people sexually do in privacy, so interested in your welfare according to their belief system which is not grounded whatsoever on evidential proof that they will come to your door and be a complete nuisance, in their helping way of course, and they will feed and clothe you if needed as long as you admit to something that does not exist, a soul, so they in their meddling way can 'save' this non-existent thing--a soul.

What a shame that these helpful people are doing the opposite of what they think they are doing--they are hindering the advancement of humanity by clinging to superstitions.

Other Comments by Logicel

19. Comment #18459 by BaronOchs on January 21, 2007 at 3:12 am

 avatarI think the more grown up of us have realised if there is a hell we'll go there anyway rather than make smalltalk to Abraham for eternity

Other Comments by BaronOchs

20. Comment #18465 by Logicel on January 21, 2007 at 4:35 am

 avatarBaronOchs wrote, "I think the more grown up of us have realised if there is a hell we'll go there anyway rather than make smalltalk to Abraham for eternity"

_____

Not only are Christians tortured by the constant fear that their grappling with the contorted and contradictory tenets of their superstitious belief system may not succeed, they will for all their bother and pain--if they managed to do what they are supposed to do--will get for eternity the very thing they tried so hard to avoid, and that is torture, the torture of being with their god for all eternity--a contrary and viciously whimsical creature.

Other Comments by Logicel

21. Comment #18467 by Logicel on January 21, 2007 at 4:47 am

 avatarroach paraphased, "...but I believed in God and Jesus so when I die I go to Heaven. Great. But knowing that millions (billions?) of people are being punished and tortured for eternity in the fires of hell and knowing that there is absolutely nothing I could do to help them wouldn't be Heaven. To me, that would be Hell."
_____

Xians 'think' they got that aspect covered. They have tried in their friendly, concerned, and helpingly meddling way to ensure that each and every one of god's subjects had an equal chance to escape hell. Since the loyal followers of religious superstitions are just human, that is an impossible task, so they are bound to fail. So not only will they have to endure the torture during their earthly lives trying to grapple with the contrary tenets of their religious superstitions and have to endure being intimately close with a vicious god for all eternity if they managed to succeed to satisfy this atrocious god, they will also have to endure knowing that fellow humans are roasting in hell for all eternity at the same time. Certainly not an enviable position to be in.

Other Comments by Logicel

22. Comment #20457 by Lizzy on February 2, 2007 at 5:06 pm

Hi, I am an athiest now but was brought up Catholic and went to Roman Catholic schools.
I felt I had to write about how I was educated on the exisistence of Hell.

Basically during 16 years of RE I was informed that God is all forgiving, that Jesus died so all the sins of mankind would be forgiven, past, present and future.
So it stands to reason that there would be no one in hell, not even the heretics! This is because the God in the New Testament, which by the way should be what Christians follow and not the Old Testament (besause christianity could not exist before the new testament and came about because of it and Jesus), has forgiven everyone for all their sins.

Guess this theory would not sit well with many Christians as it kind of makes the whole point of being a 'good God fearing person' rather pointless.

Other Comments by Lizzy

23. Comment #23691 by RichardPrins on March 2, 2007 at 5:30 am

 avatarThe indoctrination obviously worked wonders on kwirth, since he's very committed to continue the fear-mongering.

Yet, others of similar beliefs have put these basic tactics behind them, like, as an article I read here earlier mentions, for instance the Anglicans who abolished hell in the twenties of the last century. They figured it was wrong, like so many other things reconsidered before, with the mind virus.

It's rather sad and wrong having to live one's life in fear, especially when brought on at an early age. Enough with the bogeymen.

Other Comments by RichardPrins

24. Comment #27782 by TedGrant on March 26, 2007 at 5:18 pm

Dear God,
Given that the human species has been around for at least a million years but Christianity is only 2000 years old which is 0.2% or less and many millions alive now are brought up to believe other sets of beliefs and given that the vast majority of sperms and eggs are wasted or lost early in pregnancy, then the vast majority of "souls" (actual and potential) must be doomed to eternal Hell fire with a good dose of wailing and a gnashing of teeth (actual and potential). I think the way You set up the World has got to be the main reason for this state of affairs. The main idea in Christianty is that You wanted to send us to Hell because Adam eat the apple and this sin must be punished, but You had the brilliant idea of sending Your Son (i.e. Yourself in One of Your manifestations) to earth to die and go to Hell (and back) instead and thereby satisfy Your lust for punishment, so that we don't have to, but then, oddly, we are told we WILL go to Hell if we don't believe this (and go to Church regularly giving generous donations). Why did You not foresee that things would turn out badly and make the necessary adjustements to Your design in the first place? Then You and We would be happy! For example, don't put the tree there, or don't put the snake there or at least not a talking snake (that speaks perfect English). It was an accident waiting to happen. If you can read this God, please tell my why you blame us for your mistakes? We are so small and stupid compared to You so give us some help here.

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25. Comment #43987 by ronhende on May 23, 2007 at 6:08 am

Poor Dawikins! I heartily agree that the teaching of hell fire, an eternally burning hell, would traumatize any worm, let alone humans! Years ago I had the opportunity of resolving a 15 year old quarrel between two elders. The one thought the other had made an offensive remark against him. For 15 years he bore a grudge against the other chap; always attacking him intellectually-until the victim reported the matter to me.

I asked him to go talk with his colleague about the issue. He did. And it was realized that for 15 years the other chap had nursed a belief which was false. He had wrongly heard a report and erroneously impugned the elder of malicious doing against him. They made up after 15 years! So with Mr. Dawkins. He has been nursing a belief which is totally unbiblical! If Mr. Dawkins would use that 'great' mind of his to take the Bible and simply research the teaching of hell and death he would find that there is no such teaching in God's lovely message to us humans. I would like to challenge him to do so. Never mind what others say and write about it. Study it yourself.

There are millions and millions of Christians who do not accept that teaching; who know that it is not biblical. Just for starters, the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life, Romans 6:23. The opposite of life is death. How could an eternally burning hell be true while the Word states that the gift of God is eternal life! You are either living or dead. The two are opposites. 'Living dead' is gramatically, and everything else, incorrect; and would lead to confusion of language if the two were to mean the same!

Revelation 21:1-5 gives a beautiful picture of how one is opposite the other. You are either dead eternally, meaning forever; or you are alive eternally, meaning living forever. Trash all other interpretations of 'spiritual death' meaning separation from God's presence, etc. These are not biblical concepts. Take care and God bless you my friend.

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26. Comment #44310 by Gene Chase on May 24, 2007 at 9:11 am

I've read Dawkins' The God Delusion. Although I agree with Alister McGrath's extended critique of the book (The Dawkins Delusion?), my objection to Dawkins' argument can be boiled down to one sentence: You have not made the case that there are any grounds to care, to be moral, to be rational, or to press "forward" (whatever that is) in the absence of the God Who speaks to your conscience and Who displays God's glorious handiwork in all of the universe's magnificent 11-dimensional beauty. Or to put it more briefly, for you, why does matter matter if that's all there is? Why does anything matter?

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27. Comment #44316 by epeeist on May 24, 2007 at 9:57 am

 avatarComment #44310 by Gene Chase

You have not made the case that there are any grounds to care, to be moral, to be rational, or to press "forward" (whatever that is) in the absence of the God Who speaks to your conscience and Who displays God's glorious handiwork in all of the universe's magnificent 11-dimensional beauty. Or to put it more briefly, for you, why does matter matter if that's all there is? Why does anything matter?

This has been answered so many times. For a start off go back to the 19th century existentialists. Read some Spinoza. Read some William Blake even.

There is a biological basis to moral behaviour which we have extended with the development of civilisation. We are moral because we have one life and want to make the best of it. We are moral because we are "political animals" to quote Aristotle.

Theists seem to believe that man is corrupt and irredemable without an external influence, that without the promise of a "heaven" or the threat of an "hell" we would all go about raping, pillaging and burning. Personally, if I thought this was the case then I would probably top myself out of depression.

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28. Comment #51017 by gazzalw1 on June 21, 2007 at 5:36 am

Notice that all these references to 'Hell' (translated actually as Hades) are from the NEW Testament and not the OLD Testament. Now bearing in mind who the new testament was written for, and it wasn't the Jews, this is no suprise. The Greeks and Romans were already familiar with the concept of Hades the ruler of the underworld but Jews were not so would have either difficulty in accepting the concept or would expect punishment from Yahweh anyway not roasting for all eternity with some bearded bloke with a pitchfork for company. Throw in a few more concepts the Graeco-Romans are familiar with namely Virgin birth (Mithras and various Greek gods), miracles (Mithras again) and the resurrection (Greek and Egyptian mythology) and you have what is in effect a great set of recruitment pamphlets for citizens of the empire and a new trendy mystery cult that they just lapped up. Well done 'Saint' Paul, a great cut and paste job done. Of course nowadays we can all see through this can't we.

Bear also in mind that the Greeks already expected their 'souls' to end up with Hades, remember they used to place coins (obols) on the dead persons eyes to pay the ferryman who takes them over the river Styx so a new concept that if they behave themselves they could end up somewhere nice instead would have been a great alternative now wouldn't it. Particularly as they would all be familiar with the tale of Orpheus and Eurydice as well as Persephone in that no matter how hard you try you cannot escape the realm of Hades.

I think that effectively takes care of the Hell/Hades argument that fundamentalists are so keen to scare our children with.

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29. Comment #70074 by chinabound on September 14, 2007 at 2:13 am

I think Richard Dawkins is a Saviour of modern times.

Why can't human beings be proud of what we have achieved? In the face of absolutely nothing, we created art, language, music and built buildings! Invented cuisine! Where was God? If I bought a DOG I would make sure it had somewhere safe to live and food to eat and entertainment. I ask again, where was God?

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30. Comment #70075 by Flagellant on September 14, 2007 at 2:28 am

 avatarOops, gazzalw1 (40), I think you may find that a single obol was placed on the lips (not the eyelids) or, more likely, under the tongues of the dead...



Signed

Charon
Chief Styx Ferryman


Religion - an activity for consenting adults in private.

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31. Comment #70081 by Russell Blackford on September 14, 2007 at 2:49 am

It's good to see this thread again. Dawkins cops a lot of ill-advised criticism for comparing the harms from certain kinds of religious indoctrination of children with those from sexual abuse, as if the comparison was obviously absurd and offensive. Here, he explains the basis of his position - and as always, he develops his argument clearly, carefully, fairly ... and particularly convincingly in this case.

The world needs Richard Dawkins. Here, we can see why.

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32. Comment #70507 by kiodasu on September 15, 2007 at 7:26 pm

Hi..
I hope this is the right place to put this comment.
Writing a bit to say you can be catholic and have a normal upbringing, and still think science/ is great...
Maybe not called "true" catholic by others.
You tell me.

I think I am a roman catholic. I went through all the rituals ( baptism, communion 1 & 2, church wedding ).
I spent 6 years in a catholic school, then 6 years in public schools in Europe.
My mother taught catechism / church history to little kids for 15 years. Some priests and nuns in the family, people working for christian charities. At home, no big emphasis on religion except sometimes some books/history, and before I turned 12, my mother trying to bring us to church every sunday morning. Also got some saturday morning classes a few years.
That`s for my background...
Oh, and book-addict, I devored religion history books, ancient and recent archeological studies.

At school, I didnt feel like the teachers were trying to indoctrinate us. We had a nun teaching music, and sometimes giving catolicism history lessons - otherwise everybody else was normal teachers. Some of the kids were muslims, other jews. It didnt really matter to us kids - it was more important to know if a kid was fat/short/strange ears/intelligent/teacher`s pet/.

Sometimes we had to go to the school church, yawn a bit, wait till it finish - and it was sometimes followed by cakes. We liked cakes.

At home, my father preferred soccer on tv or going to the swimming pool, on sunday morning,
so going to the church was never a big issue - my mother would go there more often than us,
and pray for our salvation maybe, or for the soul of loved ones that had died - she knew we would get bored to death if we go there too often. No point of teaching spirituality to 10years old who want to run and do things all the time.

Our neighbour and friend was the priest - he had worked with the army years ago, and had lots of jokes from that time - that he could not tell when saying the mass, of course... He had a very good friend who was helping him at home ( cooking, cleaning, ... ) and in an ideal world, would have been his wife. This was not too be, "god forbids". She wept a lot when he died and when his distant "family" nearly throwed her out of his/their house.

This priest had lots of opinion running directly against
the church teaching ( on abortion, birth control, ... ) and would only speak of them with close friends like my parents.
His superior in the church do not look fondly on priests who have their own opinions.

My mother was teaching catolic history and traditions mostly - she didnt force anyone to believe this or this, but rather tried to pass on traditions. She like the pope and believe the medias are most often changing what he is saying or unjustly critising his words.
She doesnt follow blindly what he is saying and believe he is a human who can also say rubbish,
or that most church edicts should be guidelines, but you should not think you will burn in hell if you dont follow exactly what the church is saying. That is the attitude of lots of people around us, still calling themselves catholic. Moderate ?

Because she didnt believe in the 6-days creation, was ok with abortion, was happy to see kids asking lots of questions, and mostly wanted people to grow up as nice and happy people more than being 100% church-goers,
some parents told her she was a "witch" turning their kids against religion.
( the religious school where she was a voluntary teacher, kept her for years - to happy to have an educated person willing to spend times teaching religion stuff )

I grow up with this, seeing religion, struggling with all the contradictions and trying to understand why there are not more people seeing them, or why my parents seem to be so keen on catolicism... I loved long arguments on religion, and most of them would end up with "you are too young" or "you have not studied the bible well enough" or "go read St Augustin", or "you must have more faith and it will clearer to you".
Well, I was not convinced.
Ah, and I was reading lots of SF at the time too...which of course was a baaaaad influence, seeing how so many authors can produce books speaking of different world, history, gods, ...
The human mind can weave so many stories..


So, coming out slowly now ( atheist )...hard to face and please one family with one`s non-belief, or belief rather in science/experimentation, rather in the words and propaganda of men dead a long time ago...
I have a son now...dont know yet if he will get christened - to please family and make him part of a larger culture, and also please the part of me that is still a tiny bit catholic,
or to get to be agnostic/atheist from the start,
with all the risk he will be converted to another (more) dangerous religions ?
( speaking of islam there - giving my opinion )

Well, he will have to make his own mistakes - I sure hope he will get to know my culture, my religious background,
and come to love history too - and criticism too !
So I`ll start him on the catholic culture early, but mixing Father Xmas, Fairy tales, Bilbo the Hobbit, Jesus, Feynman & Einstein, and that doing sports and observing nature is important. I`m a hopeful father planning too much!
If someone try to abuse him, on religious grounds or not, he is going to feel his skull banging against the wall pretty soon, priest or not.

Your comments have made me think and I`m no longer so sure how much of my religious background is really "needed" by my kid.

I hope catolicism can be still used and be perpetuated, but I hope more as a ritual, some place where you go and have a family gathering ( for wedding, communion, .. ), big dinners. Or people who can help you relax, or give advice, help people get more spiritual and nice, but not giving lessons on "if you dont believe that X is the transcendant part of god on a blue moon and if you say differently you will go to hell".

That will be a start, before religion disappears completely. Saying goodbye is not too easy as I`m doing it slowly. Maybe saying goodbye is hard because I will feel I wasted so much of my time on age-old propaganda/poems, taken as a guide to one`s life.
In that sense, it was abuse.

One thing i have to admit catolicism education was good - was the notion of forgiveness. Or maybe that was just the education given by my parents. Being open and forgiving people, that is a very big deal to me.

Hope you have a good day -
Thanks for your books and website,
they put words on thoughts I could not get out.

To be true with oneself and follow consistency is not so easy but a rewarding path.

No easy solution for all the kids that got abused, I hope they meet good people who help them rebuild themself. My old neighbour would have punched/kicked any priest who did bad stuff to a kid, and then turn them to the police.

I hope your books get translated in more languages.

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33. Comment #89694 by rddbug on November 21, 2007 at 2:16 pm

This is certainly a fascinating topic and I can very much empathize with many of the stories told here.
I also have similar experiences of being raise in sheer terror. I was raised by an atheist and an agnostic and I believed that when I died I would simply disappear, just altogether cease to be. This though was so terrifying that from my earliest childhood memory I recall crying to myself in utter despair.
This belief also made me horribly sad when, for example, my mother had to do something as menial as going to the market, what if she died before getting back home? I wanted my mommy. It was horrific I assure you.
I became so afraid of the dark that I used to tie a string around the light switch, then get in bed under my covers and finally pull the string in order to switch the lights off.
I recall that when I was 18 years old I was at work and had to run into the bathroom to lock myself in the toilet stall because I was so consumed with despair. Imagine, a man crying to himself like a little child.
Just thought that I would share my sad story.

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34. Comment #89699 by Eric Blair on November 21, 2007 at 2:32 pm

Dawkins' position is fair enough as rhetoric but it doesn't really lead anywhere, mainly because the crime of emotional or psychological abuse of children isn't well established, regardless of its context.

Parents and other adults do many terrible things to the psyches of children without leaving "fingerprints," as it were.

If we could sue our parents for raising us badly, how many of us would be first in line... :).

EB

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35. Comment #109641 by Ingmar on January 9, 2008 at 11:01 am

Dawkins states his opinion that that religious upbringing is child abuse and supports it with evidence from a few individual victims. However, a hand full of supporting examples has no statistical significance. As he promotes the use of science to validate hypothesises, I would welcome a scientific study affirming Dawkins's hypothesis.

So I did a web search and found that a very closely related study has in fact been carried out in 2002 at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the report is here:
http://www.youthandreligion.org/publications/docs/RiskReport1.pdf

It has even been put in direct relation to Dawkins hypothesis here:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/religion_as_child_abuse.html

To summarize, child abuse negatively affects mental health, provides additional risks for psychopathology, and increases suicidal behaviours, eating disorders, depression, delinquency and criminal behaviours, and alcohol abuse. To affirm Dawkins's hypothesis these negative effects should be occurring at increased rates in adolescents that had a religious upbringing. However, the study shows that every single one of those negative effects is instead reduced by religious "indoctrination" and increased for those that never attend church and/or do not regard religion as important. Thus, scientific inquiry shows that Dawkins's generalization from a few examples is false; instead the general trend is that child abuse and religious upbringing have opposite outcomes on behaviour. If any religion related upbringing can be regarded as child abuse, then it is non-religious upbringing.

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36. Comment #109645 by Geoff on January 9, 2008 at 11:32 am

 avatarComment #43987 by ronhende


...research the teaching of hell and death he would find that there is no such teaching in God's lovely message to us humans.


Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29
Matthew 5:30
Matthew 10:28
Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43
Luke 16:23
James 3:6
2 Peter 2:4

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