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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Tales of Hay-on-Wye

by John Walsh, The Independent

The Independent Tuesday 29th May 2007

Many festival stars do much more than turn up and chat about their book. Richard Dawkins clearly welcomes the chance to take on religious-minded folk, listen to their arguments and explain kindly, but with great precision - that they're wrong logically and they're fundamentally imbeciles. His session was full of special pleadings from non-atheists, like doomed martial arts amateurs lining up for a crack at Bruce Lee.

Can science explain exactly why the Earth exists? "No, but that doesn't mean God is the answer." Aren't our feelings of wonder – looking at the Milky Way, say – promptings of religious feeling? "No, they're just wonder and awe. Einstein felt the same, and dragged in the name of God, but he was guilty of a category error." Shouldn't religion be taught in schools as Intelligent Design, a branch of science? "Only if you give equal time in class to the Flying Spaghetti Heroes or the Nigerian theory that the world was created from the dung of ants."

Dawkins was relentless. Without religion, wouldn't we be living in a grim, quasi-Communist amoral non-society? "Nah," said Dawkins, "wherever our notions of morality come from, it's not the Bible, or we'd still be stoning people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?" Aren't your views a little too cruel to the terminally ill? "No, if I met a terminally ill patient, I'd talk about the weather . . ."

Dawkins is so steely that it's hard to wrong-foot him. But it happened. He'd poured scorn on the Archbishop of Canterbury and all "nice archbishops" for making the world safer for terrorists by saying it was a marvellous thing to believe something in the absence of all evidence. OK, then, asked a lady, do you think the Archbishop is a deluded, foolish man? "You put your question with merciless clarity," said Dawkins, impressed. The answer? "I think he's very bright. And I'm absolutely baffled about why he believes in God." Hah! Chalk up one to the Almighty.

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1. Comment #45799 by Fire1974 on May 29, 2007 at 10:09 am

"Hah! Chalk up one to the Almighty."



Once again, the faithfull claiming ignorance as a basis for belief.

The fact that RD doesn't know why the Archbishop believes is no basis for thinking the Archbishops beliefs are true.

Although, I can see how the faithful might be tempted to think that only God could be smarter than Richard Dawkins and then suppose, 'if RD can't understand the bishops faith then he must be smarter than RD.' They're used to deciding truth this way. They don't understand science and evidence. Sad really.

I can't tell whether the author is being sarcastic or not. Nevertheless, I'm sure many of the faithfull at this event took that position.

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2. Comment #45802 by redfive on May 29, 2007 at 10:24 am

 avatarI don't understand. Richard gave a perfectly sensible answer.

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3. Comment #45803 by Flagellant on May 29, 2007 at 10:25 am

 avatarFire1974 puts it so much better than I had composed so I've deleted most of my comment. But to reiterate: saying that one doesn't know, doesn't validate any other view. Faithheads hold beliefs (i.e. hopes) that are inexplicable to people demanding evidence. We say that the religiosi are deluded because they just believe (i.e. hope) without justification. Perhaps it's just a strong sort of hope, modified by the possibility of appearing silly if one does a volte-face. But Richard's too polite to say this...

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4. Comment #45806 by Fire1974 on May 29, 2007 at 10:31 am

Flagellant:

Your too kind.

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5. Comment #45808 by zcqsc41 on May 29, 2007 at 10:34 am

OK, then, asked a lady, do you think the Archbishop is a deluded, foolish man?

A question about his opinion about another person was the theological question that got Prof Dawkins 'wrong footed'!?!

Man... they're really desperate...

Other Comments by zcqsc41

6. Comment #45809 by posiedon on May 29, 2007 at 10:34 am

 avatar
"wherever our notions of morality come from, it's not the Bible, or we'd still be stoning people for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?"

Ha ha, I love it.

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7. Comment #45811 by jonecc on May 29, 2007 at 10:36 am

There is a reason why the word 'delusion' is particularly apposite when discussing religion.

If you are arguing a case based on reason and/or evidence, then flaws in your argument can be identified and labelled. If the essence of your case is non-rational, if you are appealing to some kind of personal inner experience, then to say that you are incorrect is to say that you have interpreted that experience as real when it was actually imaginary, which is what 'delusional' means.

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8. Comment #45813 by Pallinn on May 29, 2007 at 10:38 am

 avatarErm... easy on the anger guys. Am I the only one who thinks the guy was trying (and in my view, at least partly succeeding) to be witty?

Maybe I'm way off base here and Walsh is a dyed-in-the-wool faith head, but he sure doesn't sound like one to me.

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9. Comment #45815 by bitbutter on May 29, 2007 at 10:42 am

 avatarIt also reads like a tongue-in-cheek, atheism-friendly piece to me.

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10. Comment #45816 by zcqsc41 on May 29, 2007 at 10:42 am

I agree with you Pallinn... but it is hard to tell sometimes (for example SoldierinGodsArmy's Youtube videos!)

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11. Comment #45818 by greghd on May 29, 2007 at 10:50 am

The guy is being witty i think. A bit of sarcasm and false praise i think

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12. Comment #45823 by Seti on May 29, 2007 at 11:03 am

 avatarThe nice lady may have more usefully asked "What" does the good Archbish beleive? Is he one of those nice woolly theologians who think god is "just the name we give to our wonder at the universe" or is he someone who beleives that a loving, omnipotent god deliberately created some people with same-gender sexual attraction just so the people of "his" church could abuse them?

Whichever end of the spectrum he lies, there are many very devout xians who would beleive he is deluded. It isn't even necessary for us atheists to express an opionion!

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13. Comment #45826 by steve99 on May 29, 2007 at 11:05 am

 avatarI have been reading John Walsh and listening to his broadcasts for a long time. He has a very dry wit. Read what we wrote as pointedly sarcastic, and definitely damning with faint praise! There is no doubt where his sympathies lie.

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14. Comment #45830 by Carter Maxwell on May 29, 2007 at 11:09 am

 avatarComment #45826 by steve99
"Read what we wrote as pointedly sarcastic, and definitely damning with faint praise!"

Agreed.

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15. Comment #45846 by Zaphod on May 29, 2007 at 11:43 am

 avatarAgreed also.

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16. Comment #45863 by Friend Giskard on May 29, 2007 at 12:24 pm

 avatarThe Flying Spaghetti Heroes?

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17. Comment #45868 by Fire1974 on May 29, 2007 at 12:33 pm

steve99:

I suspected sarcasm and noted so in my post. I was unfamiliar with the author. Thanks for clearing that up.

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