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Sunday, June 3, 2007 | Science : Astronomy | print version Print | Comments |

Document The planet hunters

by The Economist

Thanks to Ivan Bailey for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9254050

The search for alien life is yielding weird new worlds at a remarkable rate

stamps

EARLY science is a lot like stamp collecting. In any new field of endeavour, the first priority is to gather lots of specimens. In planetary science the result is a menagerie of exotic new worlds, some 236 of which were this week confirmed as exoplanets—that is, planets outside the solar system. Over the past few days members of the American Astronomical Society meeting in Honolulu have also been tussling over whether the first Earth-like planet, announced at the end of April, has actually been found.

The rate of progress is extraordinary. The first exoplanet orbiting a normal star was discovered a mere 12 years ago. Before that, the answer to the rhetorical question "are we alone?", might quite possibly have been "yes". Exoplanets were the stuff of science fiction. Now the hunt is well and truly on for places that are capable of sustaining life, and in some ways the speculations of the sci-fi writers have been far outstripped by reality.

The main rivals in the exoplanet race are a team led by Geoff Marcy of the University of California, Berkeley, and another led by Michel Mayor of the University of Geneva. Overall, the Americans have detected more planets, clocking them up at an impressive rate of three a month for the past year. But the Swiss have had some notable triumphs. Indeed, it was they who started the whole thing off 12 years ago. It was also they who announced the Earth-like planet—meaning, in this context, that they think it is both rocky and capable of harbouring liquid water.

If their interpretation is confirmed, it would be a real coup. For, as the meeting heard, bagging exoplanets is a game with a natural bias that tends to yield exactly the opposite of Earth-like planets.

Spatial prejudice
The reasons for this bias are varied, but they have a common underlying cause. Compared with the stars they orbit, exoplanets are faint and difficult to spot directly. Hence astronomers mostly infer their existence by looking for their effects.

The first type of bias is that the stars which reveal their planets most readily are smaller than the sun. The commonest way of finding a planet is to look for a star that wobbles. The most probable cause of such wobbles is that the star in question has a planet or two tugging at it. Such playground altercations are most readily noticed when a star is small. Though the sun is not a particularly large star, the wobble-detecting technique works best with stars that are even smaller.

The second source of bias is the opposite of the small-star effect. Large planets create more wobble than small ones do. By "large", planet hunters mean not just bigger than the Earth, but bigger than Jupiter, which is 318 times more massive than Earth. That is very big indeed.

The third cause of bias is that easily detected planets tend to be close to their stars. This is partly because the closer they are, the more wobble they induce, and partly because, to be certain that they are looking at a new exoplanet, planet hunters want to see two complete orbits. A planet's orbital period depends on its distance from its star. Jupiter, for example, takes 12 years to orbit the sun and would thus require the best part of a quarter of a century to be detected to an astronomer's satisfaction.

There is also a fourth cause of bias, although it favours stars that are like the sun, at least in age (the sun is about 4.5 billion years old). Like a teenager, an adolescent star—one that is a mere billion years or so old—is volatile. It spits fire that prevents astronomers from making observations of what is happening around it. Researchers therefore concentrate their efforts on seeing the offspring of calmer, more sedate stars that are that little bit older.

This explains why red dwarfs are popular terrain for planet hunters. They are smaller than the sun (typically weighing between a tenth and a half of its mass) and, because they burn at lower temperatures, they last a long time and are often very old. Unfortunately for those seeking little green men, their coolness means that their "habitable zones" (where the temperature is right for liquid water to exist) are much nearer to the star than the Earth is to the sun. And that, in turn, means planets in this region are likely to be tidally locked, as the moon is to the Earth, and show the same face to the star at all times. This makes it hard for a planet to develop an atmosphere.

The upshot is that almost all of the worlds found so far are hot, mammoth orbs that rapidly revolve around stars smaller and darker than the sun. They are thus quite unlike the planets of the solar system—and only one of those, namely Earth, is known to be hospitable to life.

Collector's items
Planetary taxonomy is straining to accommodate the new worlds. The distinction between different types of planet has already been broadened so that the solar system is now thought to contain three, rather than two, types. The innermost—Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars—are rocky. Then come the gas giants, Jupiter and Saturn. Uranus and Neptune are also gas giants, in that they have no visible solid surface, but they now tend to be classified as a subgroup of "ice giants" that contain water in its solid form. Small, icy objects such as Pluto are no longer regarded as planets, but in any case, they would be undetectable around another star. Most of the exoplanets detected to date are gas giants. Many are far more massive than Jupiter (see chart).

exoplanet graphThen there is a question of whether particularly massive planets are really stars that failed to ignite. One school of thought says that if an exoplanet has a mass more than 13 times that of Jupiter, it is not a real planet, but rather a brown dwarf. That is because it is capable, in theory, of sustaining the nuclear fusion which would transform it into a star. If so, then some of the most massive exoplanets found to date might better be classified as failed stars.

One of the most interesting taxonomic discoveries so far was announced two weeks ago by Michael Gillon, a member of the Swiss team who works at Liège University in Belgium. Dr Gillon was looking at an exoplanet circling a red dwarf called Gliese 436. This had been found by the American team using the stellar-wobble method. However, Dr Gillon suspected that, viewed from Earth, this planet's orbit might cross the disc of its parent star, a phenomenon known as transiting. Transits of exoplanets are rare. Even among those that tightly circle their parent star, only 10% would be expected to transit in the Earth's line of sight. For those that orbit their stars at the distance of the Earth from the sun, that figure falls to less than 1%. Dr Gillon, however, was fortunate. The planet in question is closer to its star than Mercury is to the sun—and it fell within the lucky 10%.

By measuring the resultant dip in Gliese 436's light, Dr Gillon was able to calculate the exoplanet's diameter. Knowing both its size and its mass, he was then able to calculate its density, and thus make a plausible guess about its composition. The orb in question would appear to be made, in part, of ice. That would classify it as an ice giant somewhat similar to Neptune. It probably has a rocky core surrounded by water and this water may—physicists are unsure about the behaviour of water in such extreme conditions—be in the form of hot ice. The pressure of being at the centre of a planet would, in other words, have compensated for the temperature caused by being so close to a star.

It is the rocky planets, though, that excite most public interest. The one that the Swiss team thinks it has discovered is in orbit around a star called Gliese 581, some 20 light years from Earth. Unfortunately, astronomers do not yet know if its orbit transits Gliese 581's disc, as viewed from Earth. This means it may be impossible to discover its composition in the way that Dr Gillon did with the planet of Gliese 436. The team think it is rocky because it weighs only five times as much as Earth—too little for a gas giant. The exoplanet may also lie in the habitable zone of the red dwarf that it orbits.

Detecting more such rocky exoplanets is the aim of a European spacecraft called COROT that was launched in December 2006. It is searching for exoplanets that transit their parent stars, as seen from 900km above Earth. The mission's designers believe that the camera aboard COROT is sensitive enough to detect not merely transiting gas giants, but also rocky planets that are the size of Earth. The spacecraft is also probing the interiors of stars by studying starquakes on their surfaces—in much the same way that geologists learn about the Earth's interior by studying earthquakes. Astroseismology, as this science is known, may allow astronomers to get a better idea of the ages of stars that are found to host exoplanets. Given that exoplanets are thought to be formed soon after the birth of a star (see article), knowing the age of the parent would date the offspring, too.

alien stampAmerica's space agency, NASA, also has plans to launch a dedicated rocky-planet hunter. The Kepler mission is similar to COROT, but will be more sensitive. Moreover, it will be placed in an orbit better suited to locating its quarry. The European mission is hampered by its low orbit: the Earth, the moon and the sun periodically obscure its view. Kepler will not suffer that indignity, because it will be placed in orbit around the sun, trailing behind the Earth. If all goes well, the spacecraft should be launched early in 2009.

Whether the rocky exoplanets bagged by these missions are able to support life will depend on whether they have atmospheres. Detecting such ethereal breaths has only just come within the grasp of mankind. Earlier this year two space-based telescopes, Hubble and Spitzer, were both used to probe exoplanet atmospheres. Hubble saw how the upper atmosphere of a scorched gas giant closely orbiting its parent star was bleeding into space. Spitzer, meanwhile, found a surprising lack of water in the atmospheres of two other gas giants.

To examine an alien planet's atmosphere, the planet concerned must transit its parent star in the line of sight from Earth. Starlight contains the signatures of the chemical elements that compose a star. When an exoplanet passes in front of that star, its atmosphere adds further chemical signatures. By subtracting the signals from the star from those of the combined system, it is possible to identify which gases are present in the planet's atmosphere.

Without an atmosphere, all water on Earth would be frozen. Whether there could be life on the Swiss team's rocky planet depends very much on whether it has an atmosphere beneath which water could exist in its liquid form. Some calculations suggest this is unlikely, and that any water on the planet would be steam.

A rocky future
Two further missions are planned to search for signs of life in the new haul of rocky planets that is expected to be found in the coming months and years. America's Terrestrial Planet Finder and Europe's Darwin are still on the drawing board, but astronomers would like to use them to identify "biomarkers" such as oxygen in the atmospheres of exoplanets.

To inform this work, Lisa Kaltenegger of Harvard University and her colleagues have been assessing what the Earth's atmosphere would have looked like over the past 4.5 billion years. The idea is that planet hunters will be able to spot planets that have the potential to develop life, even if life does not yet exist there.

The researchers assume that 60% of the Earth's surface was shrouded by cloud at any given time in its history. Throughout that history, about 70% of the surface has been covered by oceans and 30% by land. Initially, the land was mostly rock and ice. This slowly altered to today's picture as vegetation emerged. Some 30% of the land is now covered by grass and another 30% by trees. Naked rock accounts for 18%, snow covers 15% and sand another 7%.

By tracing the way they think life developed on Earth against this background, Dr Kaltenegger and her colleagues have come up with a model of how the composition of the planet's atmosphere ebbed and flowed with the rise of various classes of organism. They reckon it has always contained a lot of nitrogen, but that early carbon dioxide was mopped up by the formation of limestone while methane levels rose as a result of the exhalations of a group of bugs—then common, now rare—called methanogens. Eventually, photosynthesis arrived in the form of cyanobacteria. Their exhalations, oxygen, did for both methanogens and methane and created an atmosphere similar to the one that exists now.

The main upshot is that although oxygen is unquestionably a biomarker (it is so reactive that it would vanish from any atmosphere unless constantly replenished) methane may be one, too. Which is awkward, as methane is found in atmospheres, such as that of Saturn's moon Titan, where life is not thought to be present.

Another biomarker might be a planet's colour. Chlorophyll, the chemical that controls photosynthesis, is green for a reason. It is tuned to the spectrum of the sun in order to absorb sunlight in the most efficient way possible. The reflected green is the light it rejects. That calculation could be made for any star, and the best colour for a chlorophyll equivalent worked out. Perhaps if the exoplanet under investigation were orbiting a dwarf star, the little green men—or, at least the vegetation they eat—might turn out to be orange.

Comments 1 - 46 of 46 |

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1. Comment #47236 by MIND_REBEL on June 3, 2007 at 4:47 pm

 avatarBelieving in UFOs is just as irrational as believing in god. I think it's a waste of time, and a misuse of science.

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2. Comment #47240 by Henri Bergson on June 3, 2007 at 5:01 pm

 avatarThanks for your highly important opinion mind rebel.
It's nothing to do with UFOs though.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

3. Comment #47243 by serrano on June 3, 2007 at 5:15 pm

More like RELEVANCE_REBEL

Other Comments by serrano

4. Comment #47246 by Jolly Wally on June 3, 2007 at 5:30 pm

They aren't UFO'S MIND_REBEL! We now know them to be PLANETS!!!

Other Comments by Jolly Wally

5. Comment #47252 by MelM on June 3, 2007 at 6:19 pm

Answers In Genisis has something to say about this in the article: The existence and origin of extrasolar planets.
To explain how extrasolar planets can be extremely near their stars, it is becoming accepted today among scientists that the extrasolar planets formed several astronomical units from their star and then migrated closer to the star. The complexities and difficulties of this process make naturalistic origin theories implausible. However, in a young-age creation point of view, such planets could have been created at any distance from the star, making complex migration processes unnecessary.


It will be concluded that the existence of these objects, as an issue of experimental science, does not conflict with the young-age creation viewpoint. On the other hand, on the issue of their origin, planet formation theories of today are in conflict with a Biblical creationary worldview. Accepted naturalistic theories must be rejected by creationists in favor of them being supernaturally and recently created.
Hmmm. "Complexities and difficulties". Seems like I've heard this somewhere before.

Other Comments by MelM

6. Comment #47259 by Jimill on June 3, 2007 at 7:04 pm

 avatarRebel, I think you may have missed the point of the article.

Finding planets that could possibly support life is very relevent and very important to science and humanity. To know our planet isn't the only one that can sustain life. That we are not alone (as cheezy as it sounds). Even if it isnt intelligent life on one of those planets, it still tells us that it is possible for life to form on its own and propagate itself. And it could even show us different directions evolution can go or forms it can take.

YES! Very Relevent! Not a waste of time for Science at all. This field could possibly lead to some of the greatest scientific discoveries of all time. No exageration. Just think about the outcome of finding, with much evidence, that there actually is life elsewhere in the universe. That is a major (MAJOR!) discovery!

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7. Comment #47264 by Ohnhai on June 3, 2007 at 7:52 pm

 avatarcontinuing on from what Jimill said...

The discovery of even ONE jovian sized extra-solar-planet (ESP) shortens the odds that there might be life out there, so dramatically it is hard to state just how more likely extra-solar-life becomes.

the fact we have around 200 ESPs on record (an ever growing number) continues to shorten the odds in leaps and bounds.

The recent news that scientists think they have found an 'earth like' planet - if confirmed - will dramatically shorten the odds yet further.

While the evidence is by no means conclusive (we need more data) the simple fact we HAVE any data at all makes the possibility of extra-solar-life a totally rational probability. Unlike the 'asstertion' of God.

Other Comments by Ohnhai

8. Comment #47269 by M31 on June 3, 2007 at 8:29 pm

 avatarMelM:
Thanks for the post, that's quite amusing to me that YECs take hot jupiters as evidence for creation. Never mind the fact that there are actually some fairly robust theories of migration (and in fact, that the biggest theoretical problem has always been stopping migration not starting it) - whenever they don't understand something (or, I suspect, when they hear a scientist say that s/he doesn't understand something presently) it automatically means that there will never be a natural explanation for it, ergo it was created.

What's particularly laughable to me though is their statement that hot jupiters are no problem for creation. Of course, nothing at all is ever a problem for creation - the universe could have been created in any possible state. In fact, I've never really understood why they wouldn't just say "God created the universe to look like it arose from natural processes" and then not worry about it any more, it seems far easier for them to do than adopting this stupid stance of trying to come up with hairbrained explanations for why all ages and dates measured by scientists are wrong. It just makes them look completely ignorant (I suppose that answers my question though).

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9. Comment #47270 by valleyshrew on June 3, 2007 at 9:11 pm

I don't think believing in UFO's is irrational, depends how you define UFO and what your reasons are.

"I've never really understood why they wouldn't just say "God created the universe to look like it arose from natural processes" and then not worry about it any more, it seems far easier for them to do than adopting this stupid stance of trying to come up with hairbrained explanations for why all ages and dates measured by scientists are wrong."

That would make it seem like god was trying to trick us, and with that they've got no argument against atheism, they need to believe the universe couldn't have existed naturally to be able to justify their belief.

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10. Comment #47271 by eggplantbren on June 3, 2007 at 9:29 pm

 avatar>>However, in a young-age creation point of view, such planets could have been created at any distance from the star, making complex migration processes unnecessary.<<

This is even worse stupider than I remember creationism being. The fact that a hypothesis is consistent with any possible data makes it implausible, untestable and worthless.

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11. Comment #47272 by MelM on June 3, 2007 at 9:34 pm

M31,

Yes, I also had great laugh when the author came up with the bit about how creationism makes "complex migration processes unnecessary" and the problem just disappears. Just think of all the many years of scientific work that have been wasted because the scientists didn't bring in god to solve the hard problems.

I think you're right; these creationists must be on the lookout for "gaps" to fill. What parasites they are! These people are a threat to the whole Western scientific view; they're pre-scientific which means--to me--pre-Thales (the "all things are made of water" Greek--6th century BCE.)

Other Comments by MelM

12. Comment #47276 by DavidJMH on June 3, 2007 at 10:45 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Not one of you seems to have the slightest interest in science or the wonder it holds; you are all so wrapped up in your one track mind set of religion bashing you completely miss the grandeur of the universe. As for MIND REBEL, MIND LESS would be more appropriate.

Other Comments by DavidJMH

13. Comment #47279 by Bizarro Dawkins on June 3, 2007 at 11:27 pm

"Even if it isnt intelligent life on one of those planets, it still tells us that it is possible for life to form on its own and propagate itself."

This statement begs the dickens out of the question. You are essentially saying that if we find life on another planet, then it is possible for life to arise from non-life, however the only support you provide for this argument consists of the a priori assumption that life did in fact arise from non-life on this planet. It's dreadfully circular reasoning. Finding life on another planet would imply precisely nothing regarding the issue of God's existence or abiogenesis.

And you know, why does everyone on this forum have to take a neutral article such as this one and hurl these contextually irrelevant digs at religion? I'm all for polite discourse and discussion regarding God's existence, but it seems just seems tactless to me to turn articles that aren't necessarily relevant to the issue into convoluted arguments against God. I mean, it's a free country, but as we say in the good ol' US of A, take a "chill pill".

Other Comments by Bizarro Dawkins

14. Comment #47280 by BAEOZ on June 3, 2007 at 11:48 pm

 avatar
Finding life on another planet would imply precisely nothing regarding the issue of God's existence or abiogenesis.

True, but it nukes the Bible, Torah, Quran and any other holy book. None of them mention life on another planet. They don't even mention planets as such. So life on another planet would pretty much mean they'd have to be rewritten.

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15. Comment #47282 by Bizarro Dawkins on June 4, 2007 at 12:02 am

"True, but it nukes the Bible, Torah, Quran and any other holy book. None of them mention life on another planet. They don't even mention planets as such. So life on another planet would pretty much mean they'd have to be rewritten."

Really? The Bible doesn't mention peanuts either, but I would hardly think that an atheist would use this as an argument against the Bible's accuracy. The Bible does not contain irrelevant information. If there is life on other planets, then I just don't see what implications it would have on our status with God. The Bible has a specific purpose, just like a biology or math textbook. If you did not find Pythagora's theorum in a biology textbook, would you use this to argue against the accuracy of the material?

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16. Comment #47284 by Philip1978 on June 4, 2007 at 12:50 am

 avatarDavidJMH et all, leave Mind Rebel alone, he made a mistake, I would recommend more helpful remarks than calling him silly names

Bizzaro the bible contains totally irrelevant information about the earth being flat and it being around 6000 years old etc. I would hardly expect a 1st Century book to have the same knowledge of the universe that we have now 20 centuries later, would you?

Other Comments by Philip1978

17. Comment #47285 by eggplantbren on June 4, 2007 at 1:03 am

 avatar>>Not one of you seems to have the slightest interest in science<<

I am doing a PhD in astrophysics, which is odd if I have no interest in science.

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18. Comment #47286 by eggplantbren on June 4, 2007 at 1:10 am

 avatarAnd, Bizarro Dawkins, of course astronomy is evidence against the anthropocentric religions.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/whynotchristian.html#universe

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19. Comment #47289 by Veronique on June 4, 2007 at 1:54 am

 avatarI am fascinated by research of this kind. I am fascinated at the capacity of cosmologists in their unending search for the possibility of planets that may contain the same physical parameters for the evolution of life.

Bless their immense curiosity (and the 'Race to Find', of course!) that drives them forward. What a wonderful obsession! We should be thankful. Man's curiosity and questioning drives are what take us forward. That may sound a bit smarmy, but I hope you get my drift.

Even though it appears that science is lagging behind in the scholastic stakes at the minute, I have no doubt that this is a hiccup and that science will, once again, rise to the top of study programmes that are delectable, informative, exciting and driven.

To DavidJMH and Biz, I have nothing to say except that neither of you even count for an ant's footstep.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

20. Comment #47292 by NMcC on June 4, 2007 at 2:06 am

I once read a Christian writer who was absolutely 100% certain that there couldn't be intelligent life on any other planet in the universe. If there were, he opined, "who would save them? Certainly not Jesus Christ."

The point this genius was making is that the Christian God, if the bible is to be believed, has only created life once, here on earth, and that it is only humans here on earth therefore that effected the 'fall from grace' with the consequent need for Jesus's suicide (well, pretend suicide).

Bizarro Dawkins is right. If life was found on another planet it wouldn't have the slightest effect on the faith of most religious people simply because nothing ever would. If God, any God, was to inscribe on the moon one morning the words 'Jesus's bones find at such and such a location' and if the bones of Jesus were, indeed, found at this location, the majority of Christians wouldn't bat an eyelid and it would have next to no effect on their faith.

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21. Comment #47293 by Robert Maynard on June 4, 2007 at 2:20 am

 avatarNMcC said:
Bizarro Dawkins is right. If life was found on another planet it wouldn't have the slightest effect on the faith of most religious people simply because nothing ever would.
A devastatingly succinct comment. :)

Really reminded me of this passage:
"As long as a person maintains that his beliefs represent an actual state of the world (visible or invisible, spiritual or mundane), he must believe that his beliefs are a consequence of the way the world is. This, by definition, leaves him vulnerable to new evidence. Indeed, if there were no conceivable change in the world that could get a person to question his religious beliefs, this would prove that his beliefs were not predicated upon his taking any state of the world into account. He could not claim, therefore, to be representing the world at all."
-- Sam Harris, The End of Faith

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22. Comment #47363 by magetoo on June 4, 2007 at 8:45 am

#47279 by Bizarro Dawkins:
And you know, why does everyone on this forum have to take a neutral article such as this one and hurl these contextually irrelevant digs at religion?

Imagine my surprise over actually agreeing with Bizarro. It's getting really old and predictable by now, and it makes the site look stupid.

Other Comments by magetoo

23. Comment #47429 by sgr79 on June 4, 2007 at 1:33 pm

 avatarmagetoo, I agree :-)

Philip 1978: Does the Bible actually say the earth is flat? where? I am honestly curious -- Thanks!

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24. Comment #47492 by steve99 on June 4, 2007 at 5:27 pm

 avatar
Finding life on another planet would imply precisely nothing regarding the issue of God's existence or abiogenesis.


It certainly would. Finding life on another planet could help us to progress towards understanding mechanisms of abiogenesis.

Incidentally, there are some biologists who think that the search for Earth-like planets could well be irrelevant as to looking for life. Earth-like planets could be a minor contributor to the volume of even life like that on Earth. There used to be this idea of the 'Goldilocks' zone around a sun, where the temperature is 'just right' for life. But that is far, far too simple. It could well be that the majority of liquid water in solar systems is within the moons of gas giants, resulting from tidal heating, or even within the atmospheres of gas giants. Europa has vast oceans, and we have even seen water geysers on a moon of Saturn (Enceladus). It would be fun to find another Earth-like planet, but remember that for most of the time during which life has existed on Earth, the Earth looked nothing like it did now, and life was virtually undetectable.

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25. Comment #47497 by james_the_doubter on June 4, 2007 at 5:56 pm

the bible contains totally irrelevant information about the earth being flat and it being around 6000 years old


Really? I've never read that.

I've heard some Christians speculate that if there are life on other planets, then Jesus went there and died for them too. The hypothetical "are we alone" issue doesn't seem for or against God's case as far as I can see.

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26. Comment #47499 by MelM on June 4, 2007 at 5:56 pm

This is an atheist blog.
I can and do get my science from other sources; my atheism is the only reason I read this blog. If this were an astrophysics blog discussing an article in an astrophysics journal (the Economist is not such a journal), bringing up religion would, generally, be rediculous unless it were an article about what creationists are attempting to do to astrophysics. (Ken Ham of AIG is into far far more than planet formation theory. I can well understand the reluctance of scientists to spend time on nonsense, but, at this point in history, the job has to be done--they need to step up to save their science for themselves and for the rest of us.)

Religion is highly relevant.
Anyway, since this is not a science blog, and the Economist is not a science journal, and this blog is mainly about how "religion poisons everything", bringing up something about religion's disastrous
point of view on a topic is highly relevant. Perhaps most people here didn't know what AIG had to say on exoplanets; I think it's damn relevant that they do know. I welcome religion-free comments but it would be very limiting to restrict discussion of "neutral" topics to such comments. If religion has something crazy to say about a topic, I think it's worthy of a comment. And hey, it's just "teaching the controversy" and presenting alternate views in an area "dominated and controlled by secular scientists who are prejudiced against the Biblical World View".

A ploy maybe?
And, I'm just a little suspicous when theists don't want religion brought up. I'm thinking: "ploy to get atheists to shut the hell up and not bring criticism of religion into the discussion of a topic." I can certainly understand why some would want a religion-free discussion of astrophysics; I'm sure that the astrophysics users here would be able to point to such a blog. For myself, I think having religion-free topics on this blog would be a big mistake.

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27. Comment #47500 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on June 4, 2007 at 6:14 pm

Hi James - what a strange idea, Jesus going to other planets and dieing for them too.

I mean (if the young earth creationists are correct), it took four thousand years for Jesus to make an appearance on this planet, and he's not been seen since. Would he have appeared on those other planets at the same time? Would he have suffered an incredibly coincidental fate on those planets too?

If Jesus was destined to suffer and die on those planets too, then how can the claim of freedom of will be true - surely some meddling must have gone on to ensure on ALL those planets he suffered to save their sins?

Unless he only suffered on this planet for their sins, in which case how would they know on the other planets that he had suffered for their sins? (which would kind of defeat the purpose of the suffering)

The idea of the cross as a symbol of christianity always seemed a bit strange to me. Imagine for a moment that in the first few thousand years humanity became very advance quite quickly. Now imagine Jesus is born into an age when we have electricity and the power to use it. Jesus gets convicted of his crimes and is sentenced to death. But we now have electricity and zzap him to death with an electric chair. Would his disciples feel happy about using 'old sparky' as the symbol to represent their religion?

Don't mind me, I'm rambling now.

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28. Comment #47507 by magetoo on June 4, 2007 at 7:07 pm

#47499 by MelM
I'm not sure we are even on the same site. If there is some official statement that the topic at all times must be religion, I have sure missed it.

What I want, is just for the comments to be relevant to the article posted. Is that really too much to ask? Religion bashing is fine with me, but there is no need to drag it into every discussion regardless of topic.

And it reflects poorly on Dawkins and the rest of the community. It should not come as a surprise that we get a lot of "those militant atheists" articles when the first stop of any research on RD looks like this.

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29. Comment #47511 by james_the_doubter on June 4, 2007 at 7:35 pm

Would he have appeared on those other planets at the same time?
Timing is irrelevant.
Would he have suffered an incredibly coincidental fate on those planets too?
Yes.
Would his disciples feel happy about using 'old sparky' as the symbol to represent their religion?
Yes.

magetoo...
It should not come as a surprise that we get a lot of "those militant atheists" articles when the first stop of any research on RD looks like this


No worries, this is one of the coolest sites on the net... as friendly/genuine as them come. The "militant atheist" opinion is probably as ignorant as "militant ______" insert religion, where the token nutcases give the rest of group a bad rep. But even more likely is that people label others without doing any research at all.

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30. Comment #47566 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on June 5, 2007 at 1:45 am

@Magetoo - this site was set up around The God Delusion, you should hardly be surprised if the talk is about religion. What you want from peoples comments and what people are free to comment about appear to be two different things.

Hi James, thanks for the answers.
If timing is irrelevant, then what was so special about the time that Jesus decided to come to Earth? What if he needed to be on another planet at exactly the same time? Would that mean that there would have to be another Jesus, would there be one Jesus but spread over two planets, or would the other planet just have to make do whilst Jesus was on this one?

If Jesus "had" to meet a gruesome fate at the hands of the aliens on the other planets (just as he had to meet that fate on Earth), then what does that say about freedom of will?

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31. Comment #47624 by sgr79 on June 5, 2007 at 4:59 am

 avatarSo I found where the impication of a flat earth comes from in the Bible, there is a line that refers to "the four corners of the earth," which taken literally would mean that the earth would be a flat, two-dimensional rhombus.

In that case, and if we were supposed to take that literally, why didn't it specify whether we were living on a square, rectangle, trapezoid, diamond, or parallelogram? Or are we living on a rhombus with sides of all diffent length with corners of all different angles?

Oh wait, that's right, we're living on a planet that is closest to being a sphere!!!! No literal corners...

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32. Comment #47666 by Philip1978 on June 5, 2007 at 8:24 am

 avatarsgr79 and James,
Apologies, I was too busy frothing at Bizzaro and not backing up my statements, kind of monkey I am sometimes, really must explain.

I read somewhere, cant remember for sure so apologies for inaccuracies. I think during Greek times the world was considered to be flat and this passed on to the Babylonians. They had some theory that the world was flat with a dome shaped filament over the top to let the weather in. Some have said this may have been the ideology of those who wrote the bible, I will have to rummage a bit more to find out when I have time but I hope that adds a bit more to the debate.

Cheers, Philip

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33. Comment #47822 by sgr79 on June 5, 2007 at 3:58 pm

 avatarThanks for the background Philip -- interesting!

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34. Comment #47832 by james_the_doubter on June 5, 2007 at 4:49 pm

Philip,

okay... but I won't use that as an argument about the bible being false. Even today we talk about the corners of the earth meaning around the globe somewhere. And locally of course, maps are on a grid of some type, which are 2D and have corners.

Anyway, there's way better points in the Bible to attack.

Same as the 6000 years you brought up... the bible doesn't say that as far as I'm aware. I think that understanding is the result of a theory of trying to trace the lineage of Jesus back to Adam. It's reasonable enough that they skipped folks along the way... but still it results in creation vs. evolution, and I'm not getting into that right now. ;-]

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35. Comment #47835 by james_the_doubter on June 5, 2007 at 5:01 pm

If timing is irrelevant, then what was so special about the time that Jesus decided to come to Earth?

Nothing.

What if he needed to be on another planet at exactly the same time? Would that mean that there would have to be another Jesus, would there be one Jesus but spread over two planets, or would the other planet just have to make do whilst Jesus was on this one?

You answered your own questions. Yes, the other planet would make do, but simultaneous physically manifestations of Jesus isn't too hard to conceive.(no pun intended ;-) We could call it the "Binity" and 2 in 1 is easier to understand than the Trinity, right?


If Jesus "had" to meet a gruesome fate at the hands of the aliens on the other planets (just as he had to meet that fate on Earth), then what does that say about freedom of will?

It would say that they are arguing about free will just like we are.

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36. Comment #47838 by BAEOZ on June 5, 2007 at 5:11 pm

 avatarHey James, the bible doesn't mention anything about extraterrestial life. It can't be generalized. Otherwise you're interpreting, and if you interpret one bit, the you interpret any bit, and it's not teh word of god anymore.

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37. Comment #47842 by james_the_doubter on June 5, 2007 at 5:26 pm

BAEOZ,
ya I know... this whole conversation is like talking about what size and shape fairies are... but it's amusing me - what can I say? ;-]

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38. Comment #47844 by BAEOZ on June 5, 2007 at 5:41 pm

 avatarJames, I'm following you from thread to thread. Knock yourself out, tell me about the fairies.

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39. Comment #47846 by james_the_doubter on June 5, 2007 at 5:50 pm

Well, fairies? Finally, SOMEONE asked! Wait a minute...this is a trick, isn't it? ;-]

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40. Comment #47847 by BAEOZ on June 5, 2007 at 5:52 pm

 avatarJames, James, James. I'm neither smart enough nor do I have enough spare time whilst pretend to do the work for which I'm paid to trick you.
;-)

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41. Comment #47889 by Philip1978 on June 6, 2007 at 12:31 am

 avatarJames, sorry, I think you are right, I did a bit more reading and found that somewhere in Issiah in the bible it says something about a spherical earth and the 1st Century historian Pliny the Elder also refers to a spherical earth too. I think this is more of a medieval theory that cropped up so no points there for Philip, I admit I got that one wrong unless there is something in the bible actually saying so! (Bloody history students think they know everything! :)) I tend to use the 6000 year argument for the fact that some people take the bible as being the inerrant word of their god. If the bible is to be taken this way then the earth would have to be 6000 years old, about the time people were playing with glue.

If you want a good bible inaccuracy you could go for this one that I read recently, the star of Bethlehem would have had the wise men walking around in a giant circle had they been following it. Due to the Earth's rotation the stars appear to do this so following it would have been a bit silly to say the least. Ok if people want to be picky they could go for comet theory but I definitely remember it being a star in the bible.

Or perhaps the Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus was having a last minute chat with his dad in Mark 14.36,41 and everyone was asleep, so who recorded it all?

Got this all from http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm if you want to take a read, tell me what you think. I know its only one site but I would simply like to hear yours and others opinions about it, cheers,

Philip

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42. Comment #48321 by james_the_doubter on June 7, 2007 at 12:45 pm

Phillip,

How do you draw me into these silly arguments? ;-] You have a gift!

So, the Bethlehem star... I haven't studied this so my reasons could be all garbage, but was the word really "star" in the Aramaic / Greek? They didn't know the difference between stars, suns, nearby planets, or comets back then did they? Or what they were composed of? The would all look pretty similar to the naked eye.

Jesus' conversation in Gethsemane... wouldn't he have just told one of the disciples about it after he woke them, and then the conversation was later created in 1st person format and written down?

I'm reading Lee Strobel's, Case for Christ, and in the first chapter during an interview with a New Testament professor it's explained that the early historians (and writers of Matthew, Mark, etc) weren't as concerned at getting Jesus' words right verbatim, but more in getting the essence of His message across. Admittedly, I don't think this helps to validate the accuracy at all... only creates further doubt.

Also, thanks for the words on the other thread, regarding family. I appreciate it.

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43. Comment #48433 by Philip1978 on June 8, 2007 at 12:29 am

 avatarJames, I think you are beginning to understand me a little better, my arguments are mostly completely daft and I would be worried if they were not!!hehehe

I keep reading stuff in strange books and being told odd things like Australia exports, or has exported in the past, camels and sand to Saudi Arabia! I like to test them out and see where it gets me, if I can't learn anything I don't see myself getting anything out of all this. I know I have a long way to go but I don't mind being wrong about things only to have it explained properly later.

Hmm, the star business, (more wiffle, watch out!) didn't the Egyptians have a good grasp of astronomy about 2500 years earlier? Ok, we are talking about shepherds here as well but the Wise men might have been reasonably wise enough to know basic astronomy, but as you say the word for star alone is a bit of a bugger there! Plus their complete lack of Global Positioning equipment, hulking great big building sized telescopes and googlemaps in those days tells me they simply went with what they had!!

I am already reading Cristopher Hitchens and acquired a book by Kenneth Humprheys about the non-existence of Jesus, so I might go look at them first before I badger your good self with more!

Take care,

Philip

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44. Comment #56130 by drenghdndvtm on July 13, 2007 at 11:40 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Satan a large part of the Bible? He isn't omnipresent. How do we get around that?

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45. Comment #64235 by Rational_G on August 18, 2007 at 7:33 pm

 avatarWonderful, inspirational science & engineering going on here.

Question: Is there alien life?
Answer: Build instruments and look for for it.

Homo sapiens at its finest.

Religion isn't wrong here - it's irrelevant!!

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46. Comment #241054 by Alec696 on September 1, 2008 at 4:38 pm

I think we can take it as read that there is life on other planets. It's what form it would take is the big question. Look at the diversity of life here on our own planet. Can we talk to dolphins or share a joke with a snail? I think it is an example of our own arrogance to think that our technological achievements are somehow the pinnacle of success. There may well be humanoid, " intelligent " lifeforms out there who wouldn't give a monkeys about a binary code or give a stuff about whether we existed or not. Also if they were next door they would be at least 4 or 5 light years away and that is a hell of a trek.
Alec

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