The Myth of Secular Moral Chaos2. Comment #47413 by konquererz on June 4, 2007 at 12:41 pm
3. Comment #47420 by BicycleRepairMan on June 4, 2007 at 1:12 pm
4. Comment #47425 by Benjamin Michael on June 4, 2007 at 1:25 pm
5. Comment #47469 by sane1 on June 4, 2007 at 3:57 pm
6. Comment #47470 by MIND_REBEL on June 4, 2007 at 3:58 pm
7. Comment #47508 by mithraman on June 4, 2007 at 7:17 pm
A very clear and well constructed article. However, since I read the Sam Harris "In defense of Torture" article, I haven't been a big fan. I've always had this crazy idea that torture is just plain wrong. I would even go so far to say that if you are looking for moral guidance, try to get if from someone who isn't pro-torture. I suppose I could be convinced otherwise, with the use of cattle prods and boiling oil perhaps.8. Comment #47512 by admin on June 4, 2007 at 7:36 pm
9. Comment #47527 by Zaphod on June 4, 2007 at 9:32 pm
10. Comment #47528 by nothing on June 4, 2007 at 9:32 pm
11. Comment #47533 by Robert Maynard on June 4, 2007 at 10:02 pm
12. Comment #47556 by krogercomplete on June 5, 2007 at 12:28 am
"The argument seems more anti-collateral damage than it is pro-torture."13. Comment #47667 by Peacebeuponme on June 5, 2007 at 8:25 am
3. Comment #47420 by BicycleRepairMan on June 4, 2007 at 1:12 pmI agree. However, the religio response to this is that while reilgion may not have always practised the best morals that down to man's interpretation of god's will. Morals are innate precisely because god put them there, whether they are practised properly by religion or not. They can quite easily separate the abstract god from religious practice when they need to. The interesting question of how we acquired morals is reduced to god by them and scripture does not change that. They will therefore reject Sam's wonderfully worded argument.
Nothing new here
Well, atleast not for those who have read "The End Of Faith", anyways.. But it cant hurt to put these things into a shorter, more accessible context, if nothing else as a teaser for this Must-read book. TEOF is a shockingly brilliant book, it really nails it in just about every sentence
14. Comment #47715 by mintcheerios on June 5, 2007 at 10:53 am
Sam isn't addressing those people. He's addressing people who actually believe atheism will lead to moral chaos because it provides no moral basis.15. Comment #47789 by Oppomystic on June 5, 2007 at 2:25 pm
16. Comment #47880 by PsyPro on June 5, 2007 at 11:07 pm
17. Comment #47882 by krogercomplete on June 5, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Because you can *never* know that the to be tortured actually has the knowledge you seek, torture is never justified.
18. Comment #47883 by PsyPro on June 5, 2007 at 11:40 pm
19. Comment #47888 by krogercomplete on June 6, 2007 at 12:20 am
My answer is not relevant (the issue was Sam Harris's), nor is the question: as we can never know, the issue never arises.
20. Comment #47894 by PsyPro on June 6, 2007 at 12:52 am
22. Comment #47917 by mmurray on June 6, 2007 at 3:19 am
Because you can *never* know that the to be tortured actually has the knowledge you seek, torture is never justified.
23. Comment #47935 by phil rimmer on June 6, 2007 at 4:32 am
24. Comment #47955 by Sargeist on June 6, 2007 at 6:07 am
25. Comment #47958 by Sargeist on June 6, 2007 at 6:10 am
26. Comment #48010 by krogercomplete on June 6, 2007 at 9:08 am
PsyPro,27. Comment #48013 by Steven Mading on June 6, 2007 at 9:15 am
17. Comment #47882 by krogercomplete on June 5, 2007 at 11:18 pm
Because you can *never* know that the to be tortured actually has the knowledge you seek, torture is never justified.
What would be your answer if we actually could know for a fact?
28. Comment #48020 by krogercomplete on June 6, 2007 at 10:05 am
There is no such thing as a situation where we can be sure someone has the information we want, yet we do not yet know what that information actually is.
29. Comment #48271 by Sargeist on June 7, 2007 at 9:01 am
30. Comment #48482 by debaser71 on June 8, 2007 at 6:18 am
I really like Sam Harris but I have a gripe with a certain atheist argument. Sometimes atheists like to argue that religionist think they get their moral from the bible or that god set up laws to follow but IMO these arguments are flawed. The religious are saying (and yes I realize that they abuse language) that god gave humans the capacity for morality. That humans can be moral at all is a gift from god. One doesn't need to read the bible or fear god to be moral, just that god gave morality as a gift (in His image sort of thing) to all humanity. So secularists can be moral (according to the religious) without having read the bible and without fearing/loving god because god gave them the gift of morality anyway, that the secularist just doesn't attribute their morality to god.31. Comment #48524 by gimlibengloin on June 8, 2007 at 9:13 am
A brave attempt by Mr Harris to avoid the inevitable amorality of atheism but of course he fails.32. Comment #48739 by ColourOutofSpace on June 8, 2007 at 11:06 pm
33. Comment #48988 by matthuisman on June 9, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Given Harris' linkage of morality and happiness/suffering, do things become problematic when they cause suffering to one and happiness to another?34. Comment #48994 by Russell Blackford on June 10, 2007 at 12:13 am
People seem to mean all sorts of different things when they talk about an absolute morality. If it means a morality with exceptionless rules, for example, then I have no idea why we would want a morality like that. If it means an objective morality Out There somewhere, I have no reason to imagine that any such thing exists, or why it should be thought of as desirable.35. Comment #48999 by epeeist on June 10, 2007 at 12:49 am
"Atheism is inherently amoral"
gimlibengloin: Please explain to me how not believing in any God or gods is inconsistent with being able to make moral value-judgements about human behavior.
Morality is also open to revision if it is not actually achieving the outcomes that make it desirable in the first place. A lot of our inherited morality could do with rational revision.
This is where religionists are particularly dangerous. They make typically make a fetish of moral rules, instead of keeping in mind what morality is for. This can lead them to be irrational and even cruel, wanting to enforce a morality that is narrow, warped, and harmful.
36. Comment #49080 by The Wee Flea on June 10, 2007 at 8:33 am
Interesting debate. Just a few comments on Sam's three points.37. Comment #49085 by BillySands on June 10, 2007 at 8:50 am
38. Comment #49089 by steve99 on June 10, 2007 at 9:12 am
It acts as a light to show us where our moral nature has become perverted.
They make typically make a fetish of moral rules, instead of keeping in mind what morality is for.
Again an interesting comment. Who is going to do the revising? Who is going to decide what is rational?
39. Comment #49092 by steve99 on June 10, 2007 at 9:29 am
although Sweden had a State Church and 90% membership of that Church until 2000.
Finland had and has one of the highest percentage of evangelicals in Western Europe.
This is a demonstrably false claim.
40. Comment #49103 by BillySands on June 10, 2007 at 10:27 am
The Bible's teaching about morality is that humans beings are moral because they are created in the image of God.
This only makes sense if the religion concerned was claiming that only those of that religion were moral. The Biblical teaching is that all human beings are created with a sense of right and wrong. Therefore the whole point is moot.
41. Comment #49104 by BillySands on June 10, 2007 at 10:34 am
42. Comment #49483 by The Wee Flea on June 12, 2007 at 4:47 am
"First of all, I am impressed that you know more than the United Nations (is this like you knowing more than biologists and psychologists in other areas we have discussed?)."43. Comment #49492 by steve99 on June 12, 2007 at 5:36 am
Steve - Mind Rebel had claimed that 80% of the populations of Sweden and Finland were 'Hardcore atheists' and that Kenya and South Africa were run by the Vatican. These claims are demonstrably false so why do you defend them?
The figures for Finland in 2001 were 87% claimed to be Christian, 12.6% non-religious and 0.18% muslim. About 20% of the population claimed to be evangelical as contrasted with 8% of the UK. In Sweden the figures are 54% Christian, 42% on-religious and 5% evangelical.
One caveat - these figures are from 2001 but I suspect that in six years the number of hardcore atheists has not more than doubled.
44. Comment #49745 by newatheist on June 13, 2007 at 8:01 am
Let's just assume the insults and cut to the arguments.Where's the fun in that, you irrational, stupid, ignorant, faithhead? :-)
What is love? What is hate? Are they not just chemical reactions?Their effects on us are certainly measurably physiological, and love and "hate" seem to exist to varying degrees among different species of animals. Even my dog smiles and wags his tail. I love him. I think he loves me. It does a body good. Yes, "chemical reactions" seems to sum it up nicely, and I'm bloody glad of them. I wouldn't think they were non physical unless someone had, well … evidence they were non physical.
If stealing something from someone else makes me happy, and provides for my family why should that be considered wrong?Because it's irrational in that it sets a ridiculous precedent. If you think it's right for you to steal for your family (i.e. it should go unpunished), then you have to concede that everyone can steal from you for their family. It doesn't take much to realise this is destructive to society. Little wonder human intelligence has evolved to appreciate the effects of negative reciprocity. This awareness is a strong mechanism for self preservation and that of the species.
Why is it wrong to kill the weak in order to preserve the species?Apart from the fact we don't have to kill the weak to preserve the species, I'd say it's mostly the reciprocity again. If by "the weak" you mean disabled people, you'd hardly want to be killed yourself if you lost a limb. If by "the weak" you mean mentally challenged people, our over-riding morality comes from the chemical reactions that compel us to act with empathy. If not our empathy for the mentally challenged, then our empathy for the people who love them. And there's the ol' reciprocity. We'd hardly want our child killed if it was born with a mental defect, so we wouldn't kill the mentally defective child of anyone else.
What is wrong about killing the child in the womb?That seems to depend on when you can call it a child. This is where debate rages as we all know.
Why not kill the elderly who can no longer look after or provide for themselves?Sorry. I'm going to say reciprocity again. If I ran around culling o.a.p.'s I'd hardly stand much chance of to living to a ripe old age because I'd be culled as soon as I needed help getting out of my chair. And there's that pesky chemical reaction from old Ethel's kids. As a (grown) child you don't want mum put down. There's love (from the kids), empathy (for the kids), reciprocity. No god though, unless you put one there.
Why not kill those who have the wrong beliefs?A religious speciality.
Sam may think that it is rather easy to provide a nontheistic objective basis for morality. If it is that easy why does he not do so?"I haven't read much of Sam Harris. I saved this quote though -
45. Comment #53277 by robotaholic on June 30, 2007 at 1:51 pm
1. Comment #47409 by Benjamin Michael on June 4, 2007 at 12:21 pm
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