1. Comment #47514 by mdowe on June 4, 2007 at 7:53 pm

I feel sorry for the Palestinians. They seem forever doomed to more than their share of misery by their own hate-filled culture -- a glorification of killing and death fueled in large part by religion. They can never be rescued from themselves.

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2. Comment #47516 by Axulus on June 4, 2007 at 7:55 pm

This sort of psychological child abuse needs to be condemned by every country, and especially by the U.N. The fact that the U.N. sits mostly silent while this kind of crap goes on does not lend it much credence in my eyes. It's time to arrest the people that do this kind of thing to children for crimes against humanity.

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3. Comment #47518 by Harlon57 on June 4, 2007 at 8:11 pm

Axulus.

Do we really want to start jailing people for their thoughts and beliefs?

Who decides which thoughts and beliefs are acceptable? You? The government?

Better that we do our best to use powers of persuasion than resort to thought police.

Other Comments by Harlon57

4. Comment #47520 by flyingscot on June 4, 2007 at 8:34 pm

This is most certainly child abuse and very chilling to watch.
So sad for these children to be indoctrinated with hate. So sad for us all.

Other Comments by flyingscot

5. Comment #47521 by Axulus on June 4, 2007 at 8:51 pm

Harlon57,

Such abuse is already a crime in most Western countries, its called contributing to the delinquency of a child and can result in the child being taken away from the parents in extreme circumstances. We treat actions toward children differently than we do adults. The crime is not the thoughts of the adults, it is what is being forced upon these children. This is a very extreme form of contributing to the delinquency of a child, and it most certainly should be a crime.

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6. Comment #47529 by Zaphod on June 4, 2007 at 9:33 pm

Terrible. This can't be set at the foot of religion only. Western foreign policy hasn't helped this region.

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7. Comment #47530 by Prieten on June 4, 2007 at 9:41 pm

The little girls at the beginning of the video are being trained to become the 72 virgins waiting for the boys in heaven?

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8. Comment #47531 by hootenanny03 on June 4, 2007 at 9:46 pm

Evangelical Christians need to step up their game.

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9. Comment #47532 by FVThinker on June 4, 2007 at 9:50 pm

At once chilling, perverse and achingly sad. What a primitive mentality.

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10. Comment #47536 by Spinoza on June 4, 2007 at 10:52 pm

Um. How is this worse than G.I. Joe?

Come on... yes, they LOOK scary to you... but there's no evidence of "indoctrination" in this video, any more than there is evidence of propaganda in the old G.I. Joe cartoon.

"And now we know!"

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11. Comment #47539 by Machoduck on June 4, 2007 at 11:18 pm

"I feel sorry for the Palestinians. They seem forever doomed to more than their share of misery by their own hate-filled culture -- a glorification of killing and death fueled in large part by religion. They can never be rescued from themselves."

Yeah, but I don't feel any better for the Islaelis eigther. I mean, it was them who created the conflict, and allthough I do by no means support the Palestinians by ideaology, the DO actually have a more secular reson then the Israelis.

The Palestinians want to live there because they have allways done so.

The Israelis want to live there because their land was "given" to them by this god-character.

And also, on which side is the body count highest?
Which of the sideas are completely robbed from their natural resources?

I don't support any og them, but I am more *AGAINST* the Israelis...

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12. Comment #47550 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 12:03 am

"Um. How is this worse than G.I. Joe?"

Um, a million ways? For one, GI Joe doesn't promise an eternal afterlife if you die as a martyr.

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13. Comment #47552 by Spinoza on June 5, 2007 at 12:10 am

Methinks you are unaware of your own biases.

They're ALL fucked up, but if we think G.I. Joe or toy soldiers, or war re-enactments are okay for OUR children, then I really see nothing wrong with the above display.

I don't like Hamas any more than the next guy.

I certainly think Israel's right to exist has absolutely nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with political philosophy, law, and the facts.

The Palestinians are indeed guilty of wanting to have their cake and eat it too... I have good friends who are Palestinian, one of whom is anti-nationalist and thinks both sides are wrong, he just wishes the Palestinians could live in peace in Gaza and the West bank (that is, without provoking Israel via Hamas's rockets).

That said, if there is nothing wrong with North American children playing with guns, acting in Civil War plays, etc. etc. and watching G.I. Joe cartoons, playing with the toys, etc. Then there is nothing wrong with this. It's more of the same, and either it's all wrong, or none of it is.

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14. Comment #47557 by KeithMcW on June 5, 2007 at 12:37 am

@machoduck

I don't know if this is of interest to you but Wikipedia have several pages about Palestine and Israel. How true they are I dont know but they can be interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_Palestine_and_Palestinian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

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15. Comment #47561 by HunterZolomon on June 5, 2007 at 1:03 am

"They're ALL fucked up, but if we think G.I. Joe or toy soldiers, or war re-enactments are okay for OUR children, then I really see nothing wrong with the above display."

You can't see the difference between western kids playing with toy soldiers and the brainwashing and indoctrination of hatred in these children? With all due respect, I think you need to get some perspective on the situation here.

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16. Comment #47563 by BAEOZ on June 5, 2007 at 1:12 am

but if we think G.I. Joe or toy soldiers, or war re-enactments are okay for OUR children, then I really see nothing wrong with the above display.

Well, I'm not from the US but I sort of see it the way Sam Harris wrote in End of Faith. Given the perfect weapon, I reckon Hamas would take out all the Isrealis, whereas the Isrealis would just take out Hamas. But that then creates a problem in that Hamas are indoctrinating all the kiddies to be good little Hamasians....sad.....Hitchens had it right, religion poisons everything.

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17. Comment #47568 by gcdavis on June 5, 2007 at 1:50 am

Back in 1972 the then PLO massacred Israeli athletes at the Rome Olympics Islam was not part of the equation. It was a straightforward act of politically motivated terrorism in response to Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories after the six day war. The perpetrators tried to escape; they were not inclined towards "martyrdom"

In the intervening 35 years the Palestinian struggle has become an Islamic one and we have seen the concurrent rise in Islamic fundamentalism in the Middle East and beyond and of evangelical Christianity in the US. They feed off each other's excess and vie to adopt ever more extreme positions. That future generations are being brainwashed with a more and more extreme version of both Islam and Christianity is indeed very alarming.

Despite large numbers of religious adherents most of Europe's institutions are secular but in the US a battle between secularism and evangelical Christianity is only just beginning. The fight is not for the "soul" but for the levers of power and it is a fight that we cannot afford to lose. It falls to US politicians and other opinion formers to see the warning signs and have the courage to stand up for secular values and publicly criticize religious dogma and practice when it conflicts with those values, and I don't see any sign of this, my gloomy prediction is a world sliding into inevitable conflict.


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18. Comment #47570 by Roy_H on June 5, 2007 at 2:05 am

All done in the name of Allah.....yuck!
They blow up so quickly these days.......

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19. Comment #47573 by Enlightenme.. on June 5, 2007 at 2:32 am

#6 Zaphod,

"Terrible. This can't be set at the foot of religion only. Western foreign policy hasn't helped this region."

That's a novel point of view Zaphod, you're not suggesting the video you've just watched is our fault, are you?

What change in Western foreign policy do you suggest, and which 'region' are you referring to?

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20. Comment #47575 by Corylus on June 5, 2007 at 2:36 am

That said, if there is nothing wrong with North American children playing with guns, acting in Civil War plays, etc. etc. and watching G.I. Joe cartoons, playing with the toys, etc. Then there is nothing wrong with this. It's more of the same, and either it's all wrong, or none of it is.

Actually, I can see Spinoza's point here. There is such as thing as consistency. I myself am willing to accept the conclusion that it's all wrong.

If I change my mind about the children thing and decide to propagate my genius - albeit in dilute form ;) Then they will not be given toy guns to play with.

I'm no pacifist, but I happen to feel that guns should be treated with respect. The only time you pick up or carry a gun is when you are prepared to kill with them, and the only time you do that is if you would be willing to do the same thing with your own hands.

Practical point: children playing with toy guns is especially bad in countries when their parents might just have a real gun in a drawer somewhere. Lots of kids get killed by their siblings by accident in places like these. War is not a game and guns should not be produced in "toy" form.

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21. Comment #47577 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 2:46 am

Spinoza -

"That said, if there is nothing wrong with North American children playing with guns, acting in Civil War plays, etc. etc. and watching G.I. Joe cartoons, playing with the toys, etc. Then there is nothing wrong with this. It's more of the same, and either it's all wrong, or none of it is."

It's either all wrong, or all OK? I don't think black and white statements like that are true of almost anything, but it's certainly possible to make a distinction between little boys (usually) playing guns, as most western kids unfortunately do, and and the indoctrination of children to intentionally kill themselves and take as many possible of the others with them as possible (a recent trend among Palestinian elementary school kids is trading suicide bomber trading cards, like Americans used to trade baseball cards).

Machoduck -

"And also, on which side is the body count highest?"

You could also ask on which side is the intended body count highest: Hamas is trying to kill as many Israelis, including children, as possible. Israel is trying not to.

And it's just not true that the Palestinians have "always" been there, nor that most Israelis think the land was given to them by God.

BAEOZ -

"I reckon Hamas would take out all the Isrealis, whereas the Isrealis would just take out Hamas."

First, Israel could just take out Hamas; they don't do so to (often sincerely) avoid civilian casualties and (often cynically) to avoid international condemnation. Israel had the chance, you could say, to "take out" the Palestinians many times, and didn't and wouldn't. The surrounding Arab nations have, at least three times, waged wars blatantly intended to "take out" Israel.

However nasty the occupation can be, and the reprehensible things Israel has done (yes, sometimes if rarely for religious reasons), we can see what Israel does when it wins wars. We are left to imagine what would happen, maybe what will happen, when Israel's enemies win - in fact, we don't need to imagine: read quotes from any of the leaders of Israel's enemies, and they'll tell you blatantly the genocide they're planning if Israel ever loses a major war.

And that's not what Harris said in his perfect weapon argument, and it's certainly not what he thinks about Hamas vis a vis the Israelis. He says time an again that not all religions are at present equally dangerous, nor do they teach the same things.

Furthermore, there's a huge difference in the amount of religious fanaticism between Israelis and Palestinians - that couldn't be clearer. Nearly half of Israelis poll as atheists or secularists. (Yes, the fanatically Orthodox Jews have a scary influence on the government).

Sam Harris:

In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.

Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise.

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22. Comment #47578 by Pantore on June 5, 2007 at 2:47 am

Israel is the great evil in that region not the other way around.

I wonder what people would do when their place gets occupied by some clowns that say:" oh god gave us this country thousands of years ago, so it belongs to us although we haven't lived there for almost 2000 years it is still our country"

And this Hamas video looks a lot like american youth that gets hyped up to join the army to 'defend' their country or in other words to bully the rest of the world.

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23. Comment #47581 by Newton30 on June 5, 2007 at 2:54 am

This video is indeed disgusting. Although we do have some double standards regarding our own patriotism, this kind of indoctrination of the boys is way over the top.

This is much, much worse than GI Joe. Although I remember those cartoons and toys to be violence-glamorizing, their enemies were faceless, evil-looking 'Cobra commandos' or something like that. In real life, Cobra commandos are an elite Swiss fighting force, like Navy Seals. They never mentioned the Soviet regime as far as I remember. GI Joe was not about religion and did not glorify martyrdom in the service of God. Nobody ever died in the cartoon series, not even the bad guys, which is totally unrealistic and useless as a training tool for martyrs.

As 'neutral' as they tried to be, GI Joe was still pretty bad and I oppose it now. I would never let my kids watch that or get any of the toys. It's all part of the changing moral zeitgeist, as Professor Dawkins puts it so eloquently in his book.

I myself am of Greek origin (Greek Orthodox Christians) and attended a Greek 'semi-private' school from grades 1 to 6 (I'm 30, so you can locate the era easily). At the end of each year, we would stage patriotic plays depicting the heroism of the martyrs against our Turkish oppressors (Muslim) during the independence war of 1821. All the foulest remarks were made, including on religious grounds. To this day, Turks are the most loathed in Greece above all, stemming from the 1452 conquest of Constantinople by the Ottoman Empire. Greeks are very often anti-american because while Turks are the arch-enemies of Greeks, Russians are the arch-enemies of Turks, and Americans are arch-enemies of Russians. The enemy of my enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

There were some other plays celebrating victories against Italians (Catholic) during their invasion of 1941.

There were virtually no plays set in the classical Greek period, even though this is the golden age of Greece and source of much of the intellectual wealth of the world for a long time. I suspect this is because it is regarded as a pagan era by the church. This is in Canada, so there is no separation between church and state.

We should all recognize the dangers of this kind of indoctrination and oppose it in our own countries. Only then can we effectively criticize the Muslim martyr-mongers without hypocrisy.

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24. Comment #47591 by tinyteacakes on June 5, 2007 at 3:22 am

Cute.
Those swords look suspiciously like He-Man's... By the poweerrrr of Allaaahhh

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25. Comment #47594 by TheHardProblem on June 5, 2007 at 3:36 am

WTF is this comparison with GI Joe, absolutely disgusting. GI Joe is fictional, it's a cartoon about a special forces team with fictional enemies (cobra), and most childeren know that, because they're f'ing drawn characters.
The average viewer will leave these stories behind when they get older, and see them for what they were, amusing fictional stories from their childhood.
The intent of this ceremony is absolutely not fictional. This is not to be compared with the believe in santa-clause people, their parents will not say, oh about this whole fighting for allah thing, cut that shit out, it was all made-believe.
How is it anything remotely the same with dressing all up like guerillas, flag-waving, showing of military training, praising a non-existing sky-fairy and hoping to die for him.
I call that hard-core indoctrination. It goes against all natural impulses, for that it takes religion, nót GI f'ing Joe.

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26. Comment #47595 by pewkatchoo on June 5, 2007 at 3:38 am

Oh please Corylus and others. Kids play with lots of things. I used to play cowboys and indians and war games when I was a kid. Eventually you simply throw off childish things. There is a lot more violence and intimidation by kids nowadays than there was back in my childhood. Buying toy guns for boys has been frowned on since the 70s, and behaviour has got worse since. So there does not seem to be any connection between childhood games and behaviour. Unless of course you think it is all the fault of video games. Bah humbug.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

27. Comment #47596 by pewkatchoo on June 5, 2007 at 3:41 am

howtoplayalone. Well said.

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28. Comment #47602 by TheHardProblem on June 5, 2007 at 3:50 am

"howtoplayalone. Well said."

I concur. This kind of talk is self destructive in the long run.

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29. Comment #47604 by CJ22 on June 5, 2007 at 3:59 am

All Americans are murdering racists. See this photo for proof:

http://www.sprawlmagazine.com/Images/8-17-05kkk.gif

Gimme a break.

Palestinian society is a victim of the grossest abuse. And in the same way we expect a victim of child sexual abuse to in turn become an abuser, or at the least to be screwed up, why should we think Palestinian society would be any different, especially when such abuse not only continues unabated, but is unlikely to come to any satisfactory resolution any time soon because the world doesn't care enough to do anything about it?

When you're getting screwed up the ass and nobody cares, exactly how reasonable can you be expected to act?

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30. Comment #47606 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 4:01 am

>You could also ask on which side is the intended body count highest: Hamas is trying to kill as many Israelis, including children, as possible. Israel is trying not to.

Actions speak louder than words, or to rephrase, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

To a Martian observer, the body count would be an important and objective, quantifiable measure in helping to decide which groups are inflicting the most carnage. Westerners inflict orders of magnitude more casualities on Middle Easterners than the other way around. They have much more grounds to fear us, than we them. Invasions, occupations, settlements in stolen lands, dozens of military bases, torture, economic sanctions, bombings, exploitation, propping up despotic regimes such as Saudi Arabia and rogue nuclear states like Israel, etc.

Also, it's odd that suicide bombers cause so much disproportionate concern, when there are massive stockpiles of weapons that have much greater potency all over the world and cause a lot more damage and suffering e.g. landmines, cluster bombs, etc. Is it because the suicide bomber isn't responsive to law & order as other criminals are? The normal deterrents don't work. Also, westerners are the targets (among others) whereas with cluster bombs, it's non-westerners that bear the brunt of it.

Yes, these extremists are bad, but if we're really concerned about suffering in the world, our attention should be directed at those groups that notch up the massive body counts over the decades, especially if those groups reside in our own countries.

Other Comments by Rtambree

31. Comment #47623 by wagnerpe on June 5, 2007 at 4:59 am

The movie Jesus Camp portrays something very similar, except it depicts Evangelical indoctrination of little children and shows them putting on a bowstaff show. Whether we like it or not, this scene is not unique to the Middle East and it is happening in America as we speak. As much as I don't like it, we can't go around persecuting people for their irrational beliefs. The best thing to do right now is probably to just keep waging this war of ideas until they realize how ridiculous they are.

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32. Comment #47632 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 5:32 am

wagnerpe:

"The movie Jesus Camp portrays something very similar,"

It totally does, especially that scene with the camouflage, and marching music (which that creepy woman said she copied from our Muslim "enemies"), and that's why it was so frightening.

But I think if you read the comments on the Jesus Camp link no one said "The Palestinians do something very similar." I don't think anyone means to "persecute" anyone else, but rather to call out this fanatical (and militant) indoctrination of kids wherever it happens, to wage a war of ideas against it indeed, and not obfuscate by saying "well, we have our own religious fanatics."

I'd say we need to acknowledge what happens to kids like this when they grow up. I don't see any future Middle East peacemakers in the Jesus Camp or the occupied territories, or the West Bank settlements run by Orthodox Jews. The thing is, this brainwashing and demonizing of 'the other' is way more common in Palestine, probably almost universal during the last ten years.

They're not going to admit they're ridiculous anytime soon, but let's keep trying.

Other Comments by howtoplayalone

33. Comment #47634 by JesusH on June 5, 2007 at 5:36 am

The vast majority of casualties in the muslim world are caused by OTHER muslims, not the west.

It is not the West that is indiscriminately blowing up crowded market places to inflict the most amount of civilian casualties among our own people.

I am all in favour of counting up the 'body count' as long it is fairly attributed as to who is killing who.

But of course it is not fairly attributed, this is the first war in history where one side ( our side ) is completely to blame for the other side's actions.

Each time a car bomb goes off in Iraq George Bush and Tony Blair get the blame. Funny though how India, Turkey, Thailand, Philipines ... don't seem to be blamed when Islamic terrorists blow up stuff in their countries. In these instances at least the blame is put where it belongs, on the people setting off the bombs.

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34. Comment #47636 by JesusH on June 5, 2007 at 5:41 am

>16. Comment #47563 by BAEOZ on June 5, 2007 at 1:12

>Given the perfect weapon, I reckon Hamas would take out all the Isrealis, whereas the Isrealis would just take out Hamas.

The same applies to all the Islamic extremist groups verses us.

If Iran was the global superpower we would all now be either dead or subjects of Islam

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35. Comment #47647 by tieInterceptor on June 5, 2007 at 6:19 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WHdWgES-Uw
>

.
youtube link if that one on top fails, for me it did not work, I'm on linux.

and yes, it's freaking scary.

and I played with GI.Joes when I was a kid, and the difference is that my childhood neighbouring country was called France, and not "C.O.B.R.A."

if the toys and the cartoons of G.I. Joe had France as the enemy I think it would be a bit different.


Other Comments by tieInterceptor

36. Comment #47648 by Skeptic Jim on June 5, 2007 at 6:21 am

Comment #47536 by Spinoza on June 4, 2007 at 10:52 pm

Um. How is this worse than G.I. Joe?

Are you serious? The difference is that the kids playing GI Joe aren't screaming about how great it is to die for Allah and that they want Jihad.

Other Comments by Skeptic Jim

37. Comment #47652 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 6:47 am

33. Comment #47634 by JesusH on Ju

>The vast majority of casualties in the muslim world are caused by OTHER muslims, not the west.

That doesn't refute what I said. I said westerners kill more Muslims than Muslims kill westerners.

>Each time a car bomb goes off in Iraq George Bush and Tony Blair get the blame.

How many daily car bombs went off in the months before the Iraq invasion? Bush & Blair did remove a regime under which the present carnage was not taking place. While Iraq was crawling with weapons inspectors in late 2002, Saddam wasn't harming him own population, nor were they blowing each other up. Saddam committed his worst atrocities with the support of the west during the 1980s and they were the crimes he was charged and sentenced for.

Obviously all imperial powers should get a large share of the blame if they insist on meddling in other country's affairs, decade aftter decade.

All invading powers, whether it's the Soviets in Afghanistan or French in Algeria, bear responsibility for all the calamity that follows as a direct consequence of their actions.

In fact, if you really dislike Muslim extremism, you should be supporting the immediate withdrawal of all Coalition troops and the return of the West Bank, as these two issues are radicalising the Muslim population. The western actions are counter-productive. Furthermore, Bush bares the blame for supporting Muslim extremism in the form of the Saudi regime.

Other Comments by Rtambree

38. Comment #47655 by pewkatchoo on June 5, 2007 at 7:18 am

I hear they are going to produce a fundie version called GI Jehosophat!

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

39. Comment #47663 by HunterZolomon on June 5, 2007 at 7:55 am

Some people seem to think that Palestinian authorities teaching their children how to hate and kill can mostly be attributed to western interference. While the West has a lot to answer for, the situation has been building up for a very long time, in many regards courtesy of neighbouring states other than Israel.

"The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders do not give a damn whether Arab refugees live or die. The only thing that has changed since [1949] is the number of Palestinians cooped up in these prison camps."
Ralph Galloway, UN 1958 (Note: this was before Israel took the Westbank, Golan and Gaza.)

No matter what, the sad outcome of this horrible religious child indoctrination of hate and violence will simply result in more suffering for the Palestinians. They are immunizing themselves to peace.

Other Comments by HunterZolomon

40. Comment #47664 by Lucy Wiggin on June 5, 2007 at 8:16 am

*Sigh* As an Israeli, I must say that those pictures depress me. They mean at least another generation without peace.

"Also, it's odd that suicide bombers cause so much disproportionate concern"

Try taking a bus in Jerusalem. Talk to me later about 'disproportionate concern'.

"Is it because the suicide bomber isn't responsive to law & order as other criminals are? "

No, it's because I want to enter the supermarket without giving my bag for weapon checking. Suicide bombers aren't a philosophical problem in Israel - they're real and they're scary.

Other Comments by Lucy Wiggin

41. Comment #47669 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 8:45 am

>Try taking a bus in Jerusalem

Try walking around in Southern Lebanon while rebuilding your bombed house where the region is full of thousands of Israeli-dropped cluster bombs deployed just befoe the ceasefire came into effect, all with "made in the USA" on them.

Living with the constant threat of annihilation should make humans empathise with the out-group that also have to live with that same threat, but the short-term thinking seems to be to ratchet up the violence, which predictably leads to retaliation... tit for tat, on it goes, decade after decade. This week is the 40 year anniversary of the occupation, and what have Muslims and Jews learnt?

Who would you rather take your chances against? The crazed suicide bomber with a vest of explosives, or the jets, bombers, tanks and artillery of one of the deadliest military forces in the world? If you're unsure, just look at the respective bodycounts over the last 40 years.

Other Comments by Rtambree

42. Comment #47670 by slpeterson on June 5, 2007 at 8:45 am

It was WESTERN intelligence groups (including Mossad), by creating indoctrinal schoolbooks and other material, and creating the superheroes that controlled the movement, that basically re-awakened and unleashed the monster of Islamic fundamentalism in the middle east. They wanted a buffer between Europe and the great atheistic Soviet beast. They have also watched their religious rivals (Israel) annex their nation one piece down the barrel of American-supplied guns. Now our chickens have come home to roost.

Religion has always been used as a psychological weapon and a way to control the masses. Frankly I think that was the reason religion was invented in the first place.

Other Comments by slpeterson

43. Comment #47678 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 9:00 am

I've noticed an either/or dichotomy here. Either the west is entirely to blame, or it's all the Muslims' fault.

Why can't blame be assigned proportionate to the violence inflicted?

Look at the where the violence is concentrated in the Middle East - Palestine and Iraq. Notice any similarities between the two?

Poor neighborhoods in western city slums have higher crime rates - is this entirely the fault of inegalitarian domestic policies (extreme left position) or entirely the fault of the poor (extreme right position)? Obviously humans are not good at thinking along a continuum. Language forces us to think in dichotomous terms. This issue also illuminates the problem of free will when disentangling nature from nuture.

Other Comments by Rtambree

44. Comment #47682 by Lucy Wiggin on June 5, 2007 at 9:11 am

"Try walking around in Southern Lebanon while rebuilding your bombed house where the region is full of thousands of Israeli cluster bombs dropped just befoe the ceasefire came into effect, all with "made in the usa" on them."

But why were those places bombed? Because Israel enjoys abusing poor people? Of course not.

After Israel left Lebanon, Hezbolla lost its relevance - there weren't any Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. So, they started shooting at all of our North. Again, we left Lebanon years ago, so it wasn't a demand for freedom - it was Iranic-funded terror. What should a country do when missiles are shot at its citizens? What would the US, England, and other western countries do in such a case?

And if you think any of my friends were happy to leave the university during the exams to go and kill poor defenseless Arabs, I have to tell you that you're wrong.

"Living with the constant threat of annihilation should make humans empathise with the out-group who also have to live with that same threat"

Again, why do they live with that threat? Maybe because of the parents of those kids in the movie, who launch Qaasam rockets at our south from Gaza (again, we left Gaza and the settlements there)?

The way you're putting it, it seems that you're convinced that Israel draws large 'target' signs at Palestinians, just for fun. It's not true.

"It was WESTERN intelligence groups (including Mossad), by creating indoctrinal schoolbooks and other material, and creating the superheroes that controlled the movement"

I think you're giving the Mossad waaay too much credit. If it was that efficient, don't you think we would have won the war by now?

Other Comments by Lucy Wiggin

45. Comment #47686 by Rtambree on June 5, 2007 at 9:31 am

>What should a country do when missiles are shot at its citizens?

It was reported that soldiers were kidnapped in response to Israel kidnapping civilians, and that the first missiles were fired by Israel, with a deathtoll of more than 10X that of Hezbolla's puny firecrackers sent in return.

And why did Hezbolla form in the first place? To resist the long brutal Israel occupation of southern Lebanon. And so it goes, tit for tat. Iran-funded terror. US funded terror. Martian observers would be shaking their heads "gee, these humans are stupid".

>kill poor defenseless Arabs

Did I say that? No, Hezbolla put up quite an unexpected fight. How dare they fight back when we bomb them, huh?

>Fun

No, not fun. Just short-sighted, tit-for-tat violence, an inability to empathasise, and the building of illegal settlements in violation of international law with the unconditional diplomatic and military blank cheque of the USA, and rejecting numerous offers for peace throughout the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s.

Blame is undoutably on both sides, the argument is how it's to be divided up.

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46. Comment #47693 by HunterZolomon on June 5, 2007 at 9:47 am

The Sam Harris quote in 21. above begs to be posted again.

"In their analyses of U.S. and Israeli foreign policy, liberals can be relied on to overlook the most basic moral distinctions. For instance, they ignore the fact that Muslims intentionally murder noncombatants, while we and the Israelis (as a rule) seek to avoid doing so. Muslims routinely use human shields, and this accounts for much of the collateral damage we and the Israelis cause; the political discourse throughout much of the Muslim world, especially with respect to Jews, is explicitly and unabashedly genocidal.

Given these distinctions, there is no question that the Israelis now hold the moral high ground in their conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah. And yet liberals in the United States and Europe often speak as though the truth were otherwise."

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47. Comment #47695 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 9:53 am

Rtambree, Comment #47669:

Who would you rather take your chances against? The crazed suicide bomber with a vest of explosives, or the jets, bombers, tanks and artillery of one of the deadliest military forces in the world? If you're unsure, just look at the respective bodycounts over the last 40 years.

The question, to my mind, is where would you rather live; everyone would say Israel. The Gaza could be virtually an independent state now, if the Palestinians used their money (they get more aid per head than any one else in the world, even after Hamas was elected), used their money to build an economy and schools and hospitals, instead of embezzeling it and using the leftovers for smuggled weapons (wait till they have a source of more accurate missles; you can expect a higher Israeli civlian body count then, and greater retaliation: the body count is in Hamas' hands). I'd rather live in Israel because the Palestinians have been so indoctrinated (as in THIS VIDEO) to want the destruction of Israel more than their own state, that their society is in tatters, and Israel doesn't even have anyone to negotiate with.

If I were Palestinian, I'd rather Hamas disappear if I wanted the bombs stop. Most Lebanese would like to see Hezbollah disappear, as the Palestinians who live in camps in Lebanon would like to see the recently-arrived terrorists that took over the camps and are fighting the Lebanese government as we write, most Palestinians would like to see them disappear.

Israel had pulled out of Lebanon (as they have from Gaza) and certainly didn't want another dangerous border, and would have stayed out had Hezbollah not incited Israel (it was indeed there attention to provoke an attack, but Nasrallah said he didn't realize how powerfully, if ineptly and if you must war-criminally, Israel would retaliate).

The idea that Israel is successful (sometimes) at doing more damage than their enemies doesn't make them morally wrong. Hezbollah hid amongst civilians, wore civilian clothes, and fired from inside of apartment buildings, regularly, almost exclusively (pointing to cluster bombs doesn't change that).

Israel tried to avoid civilian casualties (every dead civilian is a PR nightmare for Israel as world opinion will tell you; it's not so for Hezbollah or Hamas - in many ways it's a PR bonus). The cluster bombs were in some cases possible war crimes, but everything Hezbollah did was a war crime, both against Israel and against the Lebanese.

I'd rather make peace with Israel, indeed it's Hezbollah and Hamas' charters that they will never make peace. I wouldn't expect Israel to try to even or lower the body count to please people like us who aren't fighting, or because they have any faith in Hezbollah or Hamas changing their tactics (who, ten years ago, would have ever thought Fatah would be called "moderate" by the media?). Hamas and Hezbollah could certainly stop attacking, revise their charters, and try to make peace, if they wanted lower civilian body counts.

Meanwhile, both Hamas and Hezbollah intentionally (why is this so rarely discussed?) try to kill as many civilians as possible, and openly admit they will never make peace.

We forget that the Palestinian economy was booming in 1999, and that they were this close to peace. Arafat rejected Barak's unprecedented offer, without even making a counter offer, and then Arafat called for a terror Intifada. I'd rather make peace with the Israelis.

It can be said that Israel doesn't try hard enough, but at least they're trying.

I have great sympathy for the Palestinians, and detest a lot of Israel's actions. But pretending it's all Israel's fault, or that it relative or equal, won't help - but it will encourage more of the same from those who refuse to make peace.

slpeterson:

It was WESTERN intelligence groups (including Mossad), by creating indoctrinal schoolbooks and other material, and creating the superheroes that controlled the movement, that basically re-awakened and unleashed the monster of Islamic fundamentalism in the middle east. They wanted a buffer between Europe and the great atheistic Soviet beast.

Can you maybe rephrase that? I'm not sure what it means.

They have also watched their religious rivals (Israel) annex their nation one piece down the barrel of American-supplied guns.

Well, America didn't start supplying weapons to Israel in any significant amount until after "annexed" those lands in '67 (most of which were returned, for peace (the Sinai) or to test the Palestinians' ability to become peaceful and build a nation if the land was returned unilaterally (Gaza).

---

Since this is a site about mostly science and religion, let's remember the motivations of those were talking about.

One leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is military vangaurd, has called for an end to science education in Egypt, because it contradicts the Koran.

Palestine, and particularly Hamas, is drenched in fundamentalism (when have you ever seen a woman in a news video from Palestine), and it's only growing (dramatically in the last ten years).

Israel is predominately secular, and a science capital of the world.

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48. Comment #47699 by howtoplayalone on June 5, 2007 at 10:14 am

The Sam Harris quote in 21. above begs to be posted again.

I sure does .

(the whole thing is here: http://howtoplayalone.wordpress.com/8/)

Harris' words twenty years from now are going to resound like Orwell's do today.

Israel deserves a lot, maybe most, of the criticism it gets.

What is nearly incomprehensible are the defenses of Hamas and Hezbollah. Talk about religious fanatics; these guys (sorry ladies, membership denied) are fanatical, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, totalitarian hopeful imperialists.

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49. Comment #47701 by Lucy Wiggin on June 5, 2007 at 10:17 am

"And why did Hezbolla form in the first place? To resist the long brutal Israel occupation of southern Lebanon."

Why did those "brutal attacks" come? Did Israeli leaders woke up one morning and said "we're bored, let's go attack Lebanon!"?

Terrorists came to Naharia and other northern cities and murdered people (one of the most horrid stories I've read was about a father the terrorists found, while the rest of the family hid. His daughter ran after him, and the terrorists smashed her head against a rock). Don't know if they called themselves Hezbollah back then but honestly, I couldn't care less. Protecting people isn't 'US funded terror'. It's self-defense.

'Martian observers would be shaking their heads "gee, these humans are stupid".'

I'm not a Martian observer. I'm an Israeli (though I'd rather be called a world citizen, but that's not the reality) who want to live in peace. We did practically everything to get that peace during the last decade and a half, but certain people (like those who fund that kindergarten) aren't interested. Quite the opposite. I still believe in peace - I vote for a left-ish party (ever heard of Meretz?), but I'm also a realistic person.

" And so it goes, tit for tat. Iran-funded terror. US funded terror."

I've never heard that the US or Israel funded any action that was meant to kill people just because of their religion (even when lots of us don't believe in God, but it doesn't matter to Iran). Did you? That's a significant difference. Terror is hardly 'tit for tat'.

Oh, and I forgot:

"It was reported that soldiers were kidnapped in response to Israel kidnapping civilians"

I honestly never heard of that. Can you link an article? And why would Israel kidnap civilians? Trust me, we have enough of our own.

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50. Comment #47703 by hermes369 on June 5, 2007 at 10:26 am

These kids don't know what they are doing! They are pleasing their parents. It's most disturbing that in order to make their parents happy they have to glorify killing people.
There's a part of me that recalls Raiders of the Lost Ark. If these people want to talk to God, let's go see Him together...

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