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Friday, June 8, 2007 | Reason : Interviews | print version Print | Comments

Document 60 SECONDS: Richard Dawkins

by Metro.co.uk, Richard Dawkins

Thanks to Billy Sands for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.metro.co.uk/fame/interviews/article.html?in_article_id=52341&in_page_id=11

rdRichard Dawkins is a British evolutionary biologist and author of books including The Selfish Gene. He's also professor for the public understanding of science at Oxford University. His latest book, The God Delusion (out now), has ruffled feathers with its suggestion that the Old Testament God is 'arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction'.

What is it about God you don't like?

The God of the Old Testament is a sheer monster. Anyone who denies that simply hasn't read the Old Testament. In chapter two of the book, I describe him as 'a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, genocidal, capriciously malevolent bully.' I defy anybody to disagree with any of those epithets.

Should faith schools and schools teaching intelligent design (that the universe was created by an intelligent entity) be banned?

Any teaching of falsehoods in science classes should certainly be identified and stopped by school inspectors. School inspectors should be looking at science teachings to make sure they are evidence-based science. The teaching of intelligent design in science classes should not be allowed. Still less should it be positively encouraged by government hand-outs of the sort the Tony Blair Government has been doing to such infamous places as the Peter Vardy schools in the North-East.

What's your view of the Bible?

It's a collection of miscellaneous writings which were gathered together sometime in the first few centuries AD. It was pretty arbitrary which books got in and which didn't. The Bible was written by fallible human beings.

Are there some who still maintain it's the word of God?

The same self-respecting bishops… I'm sure they accept it's the word of man. I think they're embarrassed by the fundamentalists who still claim it's the word of God.

Is there anything in the Bible that you like?

I love the poetry of several books in the King James version. My favourite is Ecclesiastes, which is ravishing poetry in the 17th-century language. One can enjoy poetry just as one can enjoy fiction without necessarily believing it's true.

People assume the Bible is peace-loving. Are they wrong?

A lot of people vaguely recall a few nice bits that were read out at church or school but they haven't read most of it – and most of it is pretty horrible. For example, in the book of Joshua, the story of the children of Israel taking over the Promised Land has one genocide after another. Tribe after tribe are wiped out with great gore, blood and glee with direct orders from God. 'Thou shalt not kill' really means 'Thou shalt not kill another Jew'.

The idea of heaven brings comfort to many. Is it mean-spirited to attack it?

I wouldn't go out of my way to visit somebody on their deathbed who is putting their trust in going to heaven and try to disillusion them but it's odd to use the 'mean-spirited' argument to argue the 'truth' of religion. Finding it consoling doesn't make it true.

Are science and religion incompatible?
There are those who say science and religion are about quite different things: science is about the way the universe works and religion is about moral questions and 'deep mystery'. I hope we don't get our morals from religion. As for deep questions such as 'Where does the universe come from?', it might be that science finds answers. If science doesn't answer those questions, nothing will.

The biggest clash between science and religion seems to be over when Earth was created.

Some people still take the book of Genesis literally and believe Earth is less than 10,000 years old – which is after the domestication of the dog. This is naive creationism. It's like believing the distance from New York to San Francisco is a mere 7.8 metres. Respectable bishops and vicars don't believe that for a moment. The true age of Earth is 4.6billion years.

By using the word 'delusion', are you suggesting that believing in religion is like madness?

I don't wish to come across as saying everybody wearing a clerical collar is mad. Many of them are sane, intelligent, nice people but it is a delusion, in the same way any false belief is a delusion. It's a mass delusion that is held by many people, which is why it doesn't appear to be insane. If you confronted a religious person with the beliefs of a rival religion, they would think the other ideas were mad because the beliefs have no connection with the real world. They're self-evidently dotty but, because each is brought up in their own religion, they don't see their own beliefs as mad.

George Bush and Tony Blair have claimed to 'hear' God's commands. Should they be committed?

They would be committed if it wasn't the God of the prevailing culture they were 'hearing'. If they claimed to be hearing the voice of Napoleon, then they'd be committed.

Does existence without religious faith still have purpose and meaning?

It most certainly does. It has the purpose and meaning that you wish to give it. We're purpose-driven animals. This is highly rewarding and atheists have it as much as anybody else. The idea that you can't have purpose in this life because there isn't going to be a next life is obvious nonsense.

Religious believers suggest morality is only possible through religion. Is that patronising to perfectly moral atheists?

It certainly is. It's also incoherent. People do not get their morals from scripture. You wouldn't like someone who did because they'd be awful. Only people like the Ayatollah Khomeini do that. Some people may think they get morals from religion but really they are acting out of fear – doing good things only because they are afraid God would punish them if they did bad things. That's a pretty contemptible reason for doing good. Atheists who do good for genuinely moral reasons are far more moral than those Christians who do good only because they're afraid of God.

Your book has had a lot of angry responses from Christians. Were you prepared for that?

Publishers like a good buzz and negative responses sell books just as well as positive ones. Naturally, I'd prefer the positive ones.

Why do you single out Christianity for attack? Do you see it as a 'softer' target than Islam?
Nowadays that's probably true. Go back a couple of hundred years and it was the reverse. Christianity has been more or less forced to be tamed – Islam is still living in the Middle Ages but I know less about other religions. I was brought up a Christian and I have some affection for the Christian culture, stained glass windows and church music, so I naturally concentrate on Christianity.

Comments 1 - 23 of 23 |

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1. Comment #48573 by artofwar420 on June 8, 2007 at 12:28 pm

 avatarPretty much questions I would have asked Mr. Dawkins, beautiful.

Other Comments by artofwar420

2. Comment #48589 by Logicel on June 8, 2007 at 1:22 pm

 avatarshort and sweet.

Other Comments by Logicel

3. Comment #48638 by ArtR on June 8, 2007 at 4:17 pm

Richard Dawkins scores again!

Other Comments by ArtR

4. Comment #48718 by Astroboy on June 8, 2007 at 7:33 pm

 avatarencore! encore!

Other Comments by Astroboy

5. Comment #48787 by newatheist on June 9, 2007 at 3:44 am

 avatarDawkins 101. Every new atheist should read this.

Logicel, any space on asktheatheist.com?

Other Comments by newatheist

6. Comment #48790 by pewkatchoo on June 9, 2007 at 3:55 am

 avatarGood, but it is just repeating stuff that is already in TGD. Can't they think of other relevant questions to ask?

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

7. Comment #48928 by Creeping Jesus on June 9, 2007 at 4:03 pm

 avatarThis one's a bit of a coup because The Metro has such a broad readership.

For the benefit of overseas people, who won't know, it's a free newspaper distributed daily on public transport.

Just about everybody who commutes on buses trains and subways comes into contact with the Metro every working day.

Although the content may be old hat to us, it's a terrific publicity opportunity for the voice of reason, and the popular letters page will be full of atheist/theist arguments for the next few days.

This takes the awareness-raising out of the broadsheets and into a whole new market.

Ya wee stoater! (as we might say on a certain very sweary Scottish satire site)

Other Comments by Creeping Jesus

8. Comment #49056 by Enlightenme.. on June 10, 2007 at 5:55 am

 avatarI applaud Metro for also having a regular page called Micro-cosm, which engages in pop-science, with a light-hearted, sometimes effective, sometimes crass manner.

Small mercies !

Somewhat amusing was the coverage in the same issue as RD's 60-second interview, of the possible discovery of Higg's bosun (TBC)

The articles title? :

God particle found ?

I'm sure they were having a dig at the Prof !

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

9. Comment #49066 by BillySands on June 10, 2007 at 7:19 am

 avatarHi creeping jesus,
The metro is good at allowing some god debate in its letters pages. I loved it when some muppet called top cat wrote in saying that evolution defied the second law of thermodynamics, and he got torn to shreds. I hope you will contribute. I wrote in suggesting that Richard gets his own show every other sunday instead of songs of praise. That should stir it up a bit.
I see you are in Govan, if you are interested, the glasgow brights are meeting tomorrow in waxy o connors (near queen st station) from 7:30 onwards

Other Comments by BillySands

10. Comment #49073 by BAEOZ on June 10, 2007 at 7:44 am

 avatar
. I loved it when some muppet called top cat wrote in saying that evolution defied the second law of thermodynamics

I hated London the first time there (few months). The second I thought it was cool but expensive (more money, less time). Now that Melbourne has a rip off version of the Metro I should be a satisfied antipodean. But no Dawkins' feature, I want to return. Damn English. So Polite and boring, yet so copiable and learned. By the way, Viv was my favourite "Young one."

Other Comments by BAEOZ

11. Comment #49200 by doctor_regtools on June 11, 2007 at 1:30 am

There were a couple of 'Dawkins is Deluded' letters in today's metro which followed up on this. Sadly I can't find the letters page on-line, but perhaps someone more erudite than me might like to respond?

I can copy the letters in here if they're not published online

Other Comments by doctor_regtools

12. Comment #49203 by BillySands on June 11, 2007 at 2:19 am

 avatardoctor regtools,
There was some muppet banging on about catholicism and how it funded certain oxford colleges in the Scottish version today. He also says that cililisation owes catholicism
The address to send letters to for that one is critics@metroscot.co.uk. perhaps you could try critics@metro.co.uk. Also supply full name, postcode and day time telephone no

Other Comments by BillySands

13. Comment #49210 by tieInterceptor on June 11, 2007 at 3:07 am

 avatarhere I copied from the paper, since I can't find a link to it on their web page.

[b]Dawkins is deluded:[/b]

Once again we heard the wisdom of 'moral' and anti-God Richard Dawkins (Metro,Fri), spewing vitriol, faking concern and dumbing down science in order to flog us yet another book.
It's nos as if he has discovered the laws of physics, or the composite nature of light.It's not as if he has invented the science of mechanics; no, that would be Sir Isaac Newton -a 'deluded' Bible-believing Christian. As the Bible puts it: 'The fool says, ion his heart, there is no God,'

[b]P Jennings, Cheshire[/b]

Richard Dawkins should not speak publicly about what he does not understand. Christians do not 'do good' to avoid punishment. They avoid punishment by facing up to their sin, confessing it to God, repenting of it and asking for forgiveness, which is given - permanently and unconditionally.
They 'do good' out of gratitude to God for their forgiveness - there is nothing extra to be gained from it. [i](tieInterceptor: :shock: not going to hell maybe?)[/i]

[b]Phil Wainwright, London SE15[/b]


OK, these 2 letters are full of bull that I heard a thousand times, someone with more knowledge than me should answer something, someone needs to confront them, this paper is readed by 2 milion people a day I think.

at:

mail@ukmetro.co.uk

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

14. Comment #49212 by BillySands on June 11, 2007 at 3:29 am

 avatartieInterceptor
I sent this in
P Jennings and P Wainright, Where is the substance of your arguements? What vitriol? Dawkins is concerned about the harm religion does. It is just wrong to say that all Christians act out of gratitude and not fear. I also suggest you do a little research on the concept of hell houses, where fear of eternal torment is the tool of choice in brainwashing vulnerable children. The god of the bible even endorses fear as a means of making people do "good". People who do good because it is the right thing to do are so much more moral than those who do it out of fear- regardless of what they do or don't believe. As for newton, what does that have to do with evidence of God? The fact is, that most people at that time believed in God, and it had no bearing on his science - including his "satanic" alchemy. He also denied the existence of the trinity. As the bible clearly says: "only a simpleton believes everything they are told (prov 14:15) - apply that to your ministers!"

Unfortunately, I dont get the English version, so let me know if it gets published. It would be cool to be published in the scottish and English versions on the same day

Other Comments by BillySands

15. Comment #49225 by tieInterceptor on June 11, 2007 at 4:17 am

 avatargood one, we need some more good answeres.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

16. Comment #49229 by Zaphod on June 11, 2007 at 4:31 am

 avatarIn response to this critic http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w311/Mjhavok/dawkins.jpg
in the Metro I wrote this:


"Hello,

As someone who has actuallly read the God Delusion twice and not just read poor critical articles of the book I would ask critics like reader "Chris from Edinburgh" to actually read the book before commenting. It is Richards own opinion that religious indoctrination and naming a child catholic or protestant or muslim is a form of mental child abuse. As a scientist and not a philosopher he believes the question of god is scientific. You can certainly test gods supposed attributes by scientific means. Prayer studies have been done and we have seen no front page heading that read "Amputee regrows limb". Do I really need to mention the illogical assertions of "omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence"? In the book Professor Dawkins refutes many religious claims and also gives Darwinian reasons for morality. Professor Dawkins and others (I humbly include myself) care about the truth and if what we believe is actually true. We aren't satifised with just believing things because they make us feel good. We believe faith (believing without proof or evidence) is dangerous. What else in your daily life would you just take on faith? I will finish as I started as a plea to anyone interested in this issue "Please read the God Delusion before making a comment on its content".

As an addition. To Chris from Edinburgh: if you think Professor Dawkins is a great scientist but a lousy philosopher check out A C Grayling, a philosopher and his book Against All Gods: Six Polemics on Religion and an Essay on Kindness."

Other Comments by Zaphod

17. Comment #49230 by BillySands on June 11, 2007 at 4:46 am

 avatarNice one Zaphod, here was my response to it
"Chris, the Catholic Church has indeed given us a lot: civil wars, unrest in the middle east, torture, suppression of truth, black slavery and easier spread of HIV to name but a few. So, what then is your point? Dawkins' point is very clear: there is no evidence for any gods. Here's something for you, go read the so called virgin birth prophecy in its original context (Isaiah 7) you will see that it has nothing to do with Jesus, but relates to events relevant to King Ahaz around 730 BCE. So, even the so called evidence is twisted in an attempt to deceive. Couple that to the fact that many other pagans believed in virgin births at that time, and we expose a possible motive for Matthew's deception."


On average only about a quarter of my letters get published, so it is important that as many people as possible write in. Weight of numbers does affect editorial decisions.

Other Comments by BillySands

18. Comment #49434 by doctor_regtools on June 12, 2007 at 12:57 am

In today's metro (in London):

Why are people so afraid of Richard Dawkins? P Jennings, you accuse him of vitriol (Metro, Mon) but the vitriol, I'm afriad, comes from you. Dawkins's sin appears to be that he no longer believes in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, and yes, that other man-made myth, God.

If you knew the man you'd know he was a kind, thoughtful, and caring human being. He accepts his place in the order of things and doesn't need a justification for his life, or its meaning therein.

Visit the dying children of Africa and tell me about the wonder of God's creation. We must learn that life is there to be lived and cherished in the hear and now and not subjugate ourselves to an irrational fear of our final demise.

- Mark Boardman, Cheshire

Contrary to Dawkins's claims (Metro, Fri), God is slow to anger and has shown abundant mercy. IN Romans 5:8, the apostle Paul writes: 'God commendeth His love toward us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.' This is surely the greatest act of love the world has witnessed

- Aissa Amurao, London W11

I think the second of these letters ought to be fairly easy to rebut by means of a few other select quotes from the Bible!

Other Comments by doctor_regtools

19. Comment #49445 by tieInterceptor on June 12, 2007 at 1:59 am

 avatarThanks for pasting the comments Dr regtools,

I was quite anoied when I read the letters this morning, there was 2 pro faith heads letters yesterday, and today the editors only used 1 rebuttal and wasted space with another letter that basically says,"GOD is good", look it says in this chapter of this book...

ARGH! how can anyone say that and think that is being clever or making any sense.

the "he send his son to die for 'your' sins" blah blah ... what a pile of bull.

we need to send some more comments

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

20. Comment #49450 by BillySands on June 12, 2007 at 2:16 am

 avatarTie Interceptor,
There were 4 lengthy rebuttals in the Scottish metro, and no faith heads today. I'll try and scan them - my scanner is knackered at the mo) and I'll ask zaphod to post them (beyond my PC skills)

Other Comments by BillySands

21. Comment #49453 by tieInterceptor on June 12, 2007 at 2:20 am

 avatarin london only the ones that Dr regtools copied.

damned

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

22. Comment #49455 by pewkatchoo on June 12, 2007 at 2:29 am

 avatarKeep hitting them guys. I am still hoping to start a campaign against faith schools and the teaching of religious belief in state schools.

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23. Comment #49507 by Zaphod on June 12, 2007 at 7:47 am

 avatarHi All,

Billy the files are posted below. 2 JPEGs showing 4 atheist responsese to the critic.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w311/Mjhavok/chris1.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w311/Mjhavok/chris2.jpg

Regards

-Zaphod

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