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Sunday, June 10, 2007 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version Print | Comments

Document Manliness is next to godliness

by Jenny Jarvie and Stephanie Simon, LA Times

(This article is from December 7, 2006)

Reposted from:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-godmen7dec07,0,5708927,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines

NASHVILLE -- The strobe lights pulse and the air vibrates to a killer rock beat. Giant screens show mayhem and gross-out pranks: a car wreck, a sucker punch, a flabby (and naked) rear end, sealed with duct tape.

Brad Stine runs onstage in ripped blue jeans, his shirt untucked, his long hair shaggy. He's a stand-up comic by trade, but he's here today as an evangelist, on a mission to build up a new Christian man — one profanity at a time. "It's the wuss-ification of America that's getting us!" screeches Stine, 46.

A moment later he adds a fervent: "Thank you, Lord, for our testosterone!"

It's an apt anthem for a contrarian movement gaining momentum on the fringes of Christianity. In daybreak fraternity meetings and weekend paintball wars, in wilderness retreats and X-rated chats about lust, thousands of Christian men are reaching for more forceful, more rugged expressions of their faith.

Stine's daylong revival meeting, which he calls "GodMen," is cruder than most. But it's built around the same theory as the other experimental forums: Traditional church worship is emasculating.

Hold hands with strangers? Sing love songs to Jesus? No wonder pews across America hold far more women than men, Stine says. Factor in the pressure to be a "Christian nice guy" — no cussing, no confrontation, in tune with the wife's emotions — and it's amazing men keep the faith at all.

"We know men are uncomfortable in church," says the Rev. Kraig Wall, 52, who pastors a small church in Franklin, Tenn. — and is at GodMen to research ways to reach the husbands of his congregation. His conclusion: "The syrup and the sticky stuff is holding us down."

John Eldredge, a seminal writer for the movement, goes further in "Wild At Heart," his bestselling book. "Christianity, as it currently exists, has done some terrible things to men," he writes. Men "believe that God put them on earth to be a good boy."

Cue up the GodMen house band, which opens the revival with a thrashing challenge to good boys:

*

Forget the yin and the yang

I'll take the boom and the bang….

Don't need in touch with my feminine side!

All I want is my testosterone high.

*

The 200 men in the crowd clap stiffly. Stine races through a frenetic stand-up routine, drawing laughs with his rants against liberals, atheists and the politically correct. Then Christian radio host Paul Coughlin, author of "No More Christian Nice Guy," takes the stage. His backdrop: a series of wanted posters featuring one Jesus of Nazareth.

"Jesus was a very bad Christian," Coughlin declares. After all, he says, the Son of God trashed a temple and even used profanity — or the New Testament equivalent — when he called Herod "that fox."

"The idea of Jesus as meek and mild is as fictitious as anything in Dan Brown's 'Da Vinci Code,' " says Coughlin, 40.

So what's with the standard portraits of Jesus: pale face, beatific smile, lapful of lambs?

"He's been domesticated," says Roland Martinson, a professor of ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn. "He's portrayed now as gentle, loving, kind, rather than as a full-bodied person who kicked over tables in the temple, spent 40 days in the wilderness wrestling with his identity and with God, hung out with the guys in the street. The rough-hewn edges and courage ... got lopped off."

Martinson considers the experiments with high-testosterone worship "an important attempt to address at least one aspect of the difficulty Christianity is facing with men." He just worries it might go too far. "Too often, it turns into the man being in charge of the woman," he says. "Christianity has been there before, and we learned how wrong it was."

In fact, men taking charge is a big theme of the GodMen revival. At what he hopes will be the first of many such conferences, in a warehouse-turned-nightclub in downtown Nashville, Stine asks the men: "Are you ready to grab your sword and say, 'OK, family, I'm going to lead you?' " He also distributes a list of a real man's rules for his woman. No. 1: "Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down."

Stine's wife, Desiree, says she supports manly leadership; it seems to her the natural and God-ordained order of things. As she puts it: "When the rubber hits the bat, I want to know my husband will protect me."

But some men at the conference run into trouble when they debut their new attitudes at home. Eric Miller, a construction worker, admits his wife is none too pleased when he takes off, alone, on a weekend camping trip a few weeks after the GodMen conference this fall.

"She was a little bit leery of it, as we have an infant," he reports. "She said, 'I need your help around here.' "

Miller, 26, refuses to yield: "I am supposed to be the leader of the family."

He's pretty sure his wife will come around once she recognizes he's modeling his life after Jesus', like a good Christian should. It'll just take a little explaining, because the Jesus he has in mind is the guy on the wanted poster: "confrontational and sarcastic when he needed to be," Miller says, and determined to use "whatever means was necessary to achieve his goal."

Or as another song from the GodMen band declares:

*

You're not a slave, break the chains...

We've had enough, "cowboy up"

In the power of Jesus' name.

*

SUCH in-your-face aggression at first troubles Howard Stephenson, who paid $68 for a day at GodMen in hopes of forging friendships with other Christian men. When Stine, a born-again Christian, shouts that it's OK to cuss — and then demonstrates with a defiant "bull...." — Stephenson shifts uneasily.

"This is so extreme for me," he says.

A few weeks later, Stephenson, 43, is still not sold on profanity. But he has ditched the nice-guy reflex of always turning the other cheek. When he spots a Wal-Mart clerk writing "Happy Holidays" on a window, he boldly complains: It should say "Merry Christmas."

The clerk erases the offending greeting. Chalk one up for Christian testosterone.

"I wouldn't have done that before," Stephenson says proudly. "I am no longer a doormat."

The virility crusade is, in part, a response to a stark gender gap. Though churches have tried all sorts of gimmicks to attract men — even sponsoring clubs for motorcycle riders and paintball players — more than 60% of the adults at a typical worship service are women. That translates into 13 million more women than men in the pews on any given Sunday, according to David Murrow, author of "Why Men Hate Going to Church."

Women are also significantly more likely than men to attend Sunday school, read the Bible and pray regularly, according to the Barna Group, a Christian polling firm.

Murrow, 45, blames men's lackluster attitude on the feminization of mainline churches: "Lace curtains. Quilted banners on the wall. Pink carpet. Fresh flowers at the podium."

Even in evangelical mega-churches, which tend to use more neutral decor, the mood is hardly alpha male. Dancers wave flowing banners as the choir sings. TV screens glow with images of flowers and sunsets.

As for the music, "Onward, Christian Soldiers" is long gone. Instead, there are ballads about Jesus' eternal embrace. "Very Barry Manilow," says Mike Smith, Stine's manager.

Millions of men, of course, find such worship peaceful or inspirational, not stifling. And there remain some staunch defenders of the Christian nice guy. "It's a wonderful thing to see a man welling up in tears," says Greg Vaughn, who teaches men nationwide how to write love letters to their wives. "It takes a lot more courage to do that than to talk about football."

The most famous men's ministry, Promise Keepers, packed stadiums throughout the 1990s with men who wept and hugged one another as they pledged to be dutiful and pure. Men at Promise Keepers rallies today make the same vows, but in a nod to the new ethos of manliness, the conferences now carry titles such as "Storm the Gates" and "Uprising." This year, the theme is "Unleashed," as in unleashing the warrior within.

"It is not about learning how to be a nicer guy," the website declares.

Coughlin and others in the manly Christian movement are unconvinced. Promise Keepers still emphasizes obedience and purity. Participants still shed tears. Plus, children are invited, and women work the arenas as support staff, so the conversation never gets too raw. In several years of performing stand-up at Promise Keepers events, Stine never cursed; the closest he came to vulgarity was his liberal use of the word "stinking."

"I get tired of trying to maintain that Christian persona," he says. "I hate that sense of decorum. I hate thinking, 'Boy, I hope I don't say the wrong thing.' "

Stine argues that the genteel facade of a Christian nice guy inhibits introspection and substitutes cliches for spiritual growth. GodMen is his attempt to encourage men to get real. His speakers admit to masturbation and adultery. A workshop called "Training the Penis" encourages men to talk openly about temptation and bond with guys who share their struggles.

Such honesty, Stine contends, molds better, more godly men than a typical Sunday service.

"We want to force you out of the safe places that have passed for spirituality," Stine says. "Maybe worship could be hanging out with a bunch of guys, admitting we like blowing crap up."

A similar — though less ribald — approach is taken by Men's Fraternity, which was founded in Little Rock, Ark., in 1990 and has expanded around the world, with hundreds of chapters meeting weekly at 6 a.m. in churches, office buildings, even car dealerships.

"It's testosterone-friendly," says Rick Caldwell, global director of the program. He urges chapter leaders to have NFL bloopers on the big screen when the men come in, and oldies or country-western on the radio. "No opening prayer. And for heaven's sakes, don't ask the guys to take the hand of the guys next to them. That scares them to death."

Leaders don't even bring out the Bible until they're well into the curriculum; instead, they teach ideals of Christian manhood through Steve Martin movies and clips from "Braveheart."

"Do not think Sunday morning worship," Caldwell says. "Think Saturday afternoon tailgate."

The ironic bit about all this rough-and-tumble manliness is that it often leads to what can only be described as touchy-feely moments.

Eldredge runs "soul-searching" wilderness retreats in Colorado that prompt men to bare their innermost needs. Men's Fraternity gets guys talking about their psychological "wounds" and encourages them to ask their dads: Do you love me? Are you proud of me? BattleZone Ministries, based in Clovis, Calif., has posted an online video on how to pray for a man without freaking him out — but its recommended approach still involves guys laying hands on their buddy.

Even Stine is thinking that GodMen could use a slightly softer look. He hopes to roll out the conference nationwide next year, but he plans to downplay the profanity, make time for group prayer — and maybe even get a sing-along going. Not a sappy sing-along, mind you.

He'll be looking for a manly Christian hymn.

*

jenny.jarvie@latimes.com

stephanie.simon@latimes.com

Comments 1 - 35 of 35 |

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1. Comment #49137 by Nails on June 10, 2007 at 2:59 pm

 avatarbloody lunatics.
but hey, look at the irony:
Forget the yin and the yang

I'll take the boom and the bang….

Don't need in touch with my feminine side!

All I want is my testosterone high.

*

The 200 men in the crowd clap stiffly


Other Comments by Nails

2. Comment #49138 by _J_ on June 10, 2007 at 3:00 pm

 avatarAmazing! Describe a belief system as 'a bronze age myth' often enough and they actually take notice! It's like he's seen the Scopes 2 clip and thought 'Neanderthal? You're calling me a neanderthal? You ain't seen nuthin' yet...'.

I'm all for polite, reasonable debate, but occasionally it's quite refreshing to find a target who really wears his 'I AM A TWAT' badge with pride.

Other Comments by _J_

3. Comment #49142 by hasty toweling on June 10, 2007 at 3:34 pm

correction J:

"Twat" is actually spelled "Ptwaught".

Just some food for thought.

Other Comments by hasty toweling

4. Comment #49143 by _J_ on June 10, 2007 at 3:36 pm

 avatarWouldn't look so good on a badge, though.

Other Comments by _J_

5. Comment #49147 by Krister Bratland on June 10, 2007 at 3:50 pm

Stine's wife, Desiree, says she supports manly leadership; it seems to her the natural and God-ordained order of things.


Ooops! Is it that time again? Forgot to turn my clock back a few hundred years...

Krister

Other Comments by Krister Bratland

6. Comment #49148 by alovrin on June 10, 2007 at 4:05 pm

 avatarOnly in America...
It all sounds kinda leather chaps and droopy moustaches gay..
Macho macho man
I wanna be a macho man

Other Comments by alovrin

7. Comment #49150 by Steve19 on June 10, 2007 at 4:25 pm

 avatarI agree, it's very manly to surrender independent thought because of the irrational fear of an angry man in the sky. It's very manly to need a community-support network because of a fear of the unknown, and it's very manly to constantly need reassurance and be comforted by an old-fashioned belief system.

I shouldn't be too critical - hopefully all these insecure men will be made to feel better about themselves and their shortcomings.

Oh, and by the way: "BattleZone Ministries" ?
hahaahah aha haah ah ahahah ahahhaaa

Other Comments by Steve19

8. Comment #49155 by Haakon on June 10, 2007 at 5:15 pm

Is it wrong of me to think of Tom Cruise in Magnolia?
"Obey the COCK!" :P
Anyway, I believe that if you have to assert that you're a man that firmly, you've gotta be quite insecure of your manhood.

Other Comments by Haakon

9. Comment #49161 by Dr Benway on June 10, 2007 at 6:07 pm

 avatarBDSM. Yawn.

When you're able to distinguish fantasy from reality, you stay in touch with reality most of the time, but you enjoy your playtime. When you confuse reality and imagination, you waste a lot of time trying to make reality conform to your favorite fantasies.

I feel sorry for the poor sod with the new baby. He's clearly doomed.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

10. Comment #49165 by konquererz on June 10, 2007 at 6:28 pm

 avatarWell, I have been married ten years and have three kids. My wife and I have an equal relationship in which her view and say mean equal to mine. Our kids get to see us argue as well as rationally talk through our disagreements. The thing is, I don't feel in any way less of a man for not "laying down the law" with my wife. These guys are insecure because they aren't the boss of themselves. When god is your master, jesus is your master, then you are a slave your entire life. Beating down the wife and kids into righteous subjugation is just a band-aid to make them feel better for not being responsible for their own life.

But in the end, this just creates a bunch of aggressive Christian men going around macho in proclaiming their faith, to macho to realize how ignorant they are and sound. And when we just walk away shaking our head, they will smile smugly and go back to the way things are.

Other Comments by konquererz

11. Comment #49169 by TemporaryAura on June 10, 2007 at 7:13 pm

 avatar

Doubtful these guys have ever read Rudyard Kipling's 'If'.

Other Comments by TemporaryAura

12. Comment #49181 by epeeist on June 10, 2007 at 11:20 pm

 avatarComment #49148 by alovrin

Only in America...
It all sounds kinda leather chaps and droopy moustaches gay..

Err leather and err, moustaches...

Other Comments by epeeist

13. Comment #49182 by alovrin on June 10, 2007 at 11:30 pm

 avatarAh, the 1980's, now dont get all touchey on me.
Cunning marketeers those Village People tapped right into the US male psyche and made their fortune, right under the noses of middle America
At least I hope they did.

Other Comments by alovrin

14. Comment #49192 by jonahemery on June 11, 2007 at 12:25 am

If they were really men they wouldn't need some authority figure who majored in fantasies to tell them who to be. That's so sad.

A real man engages the world head on with reason and compassion and hopefully leaves it a better place.

These people are just nuts.

Other Comments by jonahemery

15. Comment #49195 by epeeist on June 11, 2007 at 12:54 am

 avatarComment #49182 by alovrin

Ah, the 1980's, now dont get all touchey on me.

Just don't get me started, right. I have already proved my manliness by threatening to sort Dr. Benway out.

And anyway all my protective kit apart from my jacket is suede, or does that have some connotation too.

Oh and :-), just in case anyone thinks this is serious.

Other Comments by epeeist

16. Comment #49202 by Logicel on June 11, 2007 at 2:12 am

 avatarExcellent responses! Especially the focus on these manly men kowtowing to the mega macho guy/the father of all alpha males in the sky.

American Christianity is a clever, astute, and effective use of marketing. This article just shows another expression of that reality.

However, this marketing approach could result in losing some of their previous market, that is, women, by emphasizing this aspect--or perhaps not, maybe it will increase the ranks of this previously enthralled segment. Female practitioners obviously get some joy out of subjugating themselves to a male God, so why not just bring that aspect closer to home, right in their own homes?

Other Comments by Logicel

17. Comment #49204 by GBile on June 11, 2007 at 2:20 am

Disgusting.

Let us double our efforts to get rid of the reli-madness.

Just a thought: What would mr. Prager do when he saw 10 of these guys coming from a bible-class ?

Other Comments by GBile

18. Comment #49205 by pewkatchoo on June 11, 2007 at 2:23 am

 avatarI am the boss in my house. After the wife, the kid and the budgie.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

19. Comment #49206 by Logicel on June 11, 2007 at 2:29 am

 avatarGBile wrote: Just a thought: What would mr. Prager do when he saw 10 of these guys coming from a bible-class ?
______

A good one!

Other Comments by Logicel

20. Comment #49209 by Russell Blackford on June 11, 2007 at 2:49 am

The wingnut fairy has certainly been busy.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

21. Comment #49213 by Crazymalc on June 11, 2007 at 3:39 am

 avatarThis reminds me of my born again days and the Man Camps we went on. Lots of what it means to be a True Christian. Swearing was not encouraged.

Though me and a few guys decided to streak through the town we were in for the camp! Good times. Good times/

Other Comments by Crazymalc

22. Comment #49215 by pewkatchoo on June 11, 2007 at 3:42 am

 avatarCrazymalc
Sounds a bit like a gay pride march! Ducks quickly out of sight!

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

23. Comment #49216 by pewkatchoo on June 11, 2007 at 3:42 am

 avatar

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

24. Comment #49223 by Cholmonedeley on June 11, 2007 at 4:15 am

If anything is more annoying than blatant religiosity, it's phony masculinity. I think there's something to be said for reasserting the value of males in our society, especially these days when men are so often depicted as broken women, but this stuff is just dumb. These guys need to learn real values, like reciprocity--if you "lay down the law" for your wife, she can lay down the law for you, too. A happy life, in my opinion, only comes through living philosophy, and Christianity is very much a blight on philosophy's belly.

Other Comments by Cholmonedeley

25. Comment #49226 by Flagellant on June 11, 2007 at 4:23 am

 avatarStine is a disgusting, unhygienic creature:
He also distributes a list of a real man's rules for his woman. No. 1: "Learn to work the toilet seat. You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down."
The (unisex) rule here is 'No matter what the nature of the transaction, ensure that both seat and lid go down afterwards.' LOL.

Other Comments by Flagellant

26. Comment #49232 by JimmyT on June 11, 2007 at 5:02 am

Anyone else chuckle at "are you ready to grab your sword..."?

Childish I know, but I smiled

Other Comments by JimmyT

27. Comment #49239 by CJ22 on June 11, 2007 at 5:53 am

 avatarI'm just wondering how they're going to top this on the bonkers-christian scale.

I'm the boss in my house. I live alone :(

I have to wonder where this strange notion of 'swearing' came from. I can understand how 'blasphemous' utterings became taboo, but what about those words with non-religious connotations? Why when I was a kid would I get my arse kicked for saying 'piss' but was thought to be cute when I said 'pee'. What's the friggin difference?? Puzzling.

Anyway, the above article represents at least an obvious stick to beat the religious with, so I'm all in favour of it.

Other Comments by CJ22

28. Comment #49246 by chezzyd on June 11, 2007 at 6:22 am

I agree with Haakon, my first reaction was Tom Cruise in Magnolia aswell! And with Jesus 'on their side' who knows what kind of acts they could justify to themselves? Are we seeing the start of an American Taliban? Isn't it strange how ideas about 'masculinity' often involve violence ('hey Jesus trashed a temple, so can we!') which is only one step away from 'do as you're told bitch - Jesus says so!'?
I do not think this is a purely Christian/religious problem though - this issue is out there already, religion or not. Being a man should mean more than simply 'blowing crap up', disliking the colour pink and leaving the toilet seat up. Maybe it is time for men to reimagine what it means to be a man? Men have envisioned most of the great advances our species has ever made. But is being that kind of man seen as a bad strategy for 'getting' women much in the same way that women torture themselves over the size of their breasts or act girlie so as not to appear too threatening? Men have a lot of power in this world, unfortunately often in the arms of religious clerics and at the expense of women. But did this come about simply as an expression of the 'natural order' of things? When I read the story about the lady working in Saudi Arabia it reconfirmed to me how ingrained gender biases are, even in the West. I cannot fathom how Saudi Arabian men can be happy being how they are, seeing such misery around them - but they seem to be! Why? Are we just slaves to old habits? Is biology really destiny? Can men and women ever be truly equal? Surely on a forum like this, where advancing the human condition through science, reason and respect instead of Bronze Age prejudices is a main topic, this could and should include consciously discussing and advocating a masculinity that does not base itself around violence, dominance or perpetual infantilism. Or even ask ourselves if this is truly possible (I am thinking Lord Of The Flies now). I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this.

Other Comments by chezzyd

29. Comment #49257 by Dr Benway on June 11, 2007 at 7:32 am

 avatarchezzyd:
Is biology really destiny?
LOL. Mother nature plays her tricks upon us. Think of the poor bastards imprinted with a foot/shoe fetish. Many must say to themselves, "this is ridiculous." Nonetheless, a shiny pump on a well-formed foot... hot damn!

Mother nature plays her tricks, but we can play a few back. It's possible for a man and woman to live as equals, but to play games of dominance and submission when the mood strikes.

Problems arise when people believe the world at large ought to conform to their personal masturbation fantasies. We get comic book men and comic book women, and we have to pretend this is more real, somehow, than the way things actually are.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

30. Comment #49260 by joekoz451 on June 11, 2007 at 7:47 am

Amazing ... at first I thought I was reading something from The Onion.

Other Comments by joekoz451

31. Comment #49267 by chezzyd on June 11, 2007 at 8:16 am

Dr Benway

'Mother Nature plays her tricks on us'

LOL - yes she does... And immediately I am tempted to ask why we naturally (and I include myself in this) assign an anthropmorphic identity to something like nature. Sigh..

I agree completely, that some people have their 'thing' and there doesn't seem to be much you can do about it and that to try to ascribe a 'moral' or 'immoral' or 'natural' or 'unnatural' status to these games is somewhat pointless. We all have fun in our own ways - and I have no problem with that at all.

But back to the point - to be honest I was really talking less about fetishes and more about the general condition that seems to prevail under what could be considered biological 'norms' that men are stronger and therefore must be dominant/superior and can enforce such a position through violence and that this is echoed in societies throughout time - including today. I sometimes wonder if, as human animals, we will ever be able to escape this. Not unless we can create artificial wombs or something. It seems to me that the female role of childbearer is the single thing that keeps her subjugated and compels to men to control her to protect their own biological inheritance. Everything else: resource grabbing, territorial pissing (with nuclear weapons instead of clubs) is simply an extension of that. Basically, I am asking - are we kidding ourselves? And even if we get rid of the need for a sky-fairy, will we simply need to find another 'opiate of the masses' (or have we found one already - called television?)?

Hmm.. maybe a big question for a Monday afternoon - but that's just the way my mind works I'm afraid!!!

Other Comments by chezzyd

32. Comment #49312 by Corylus on June 11, 2007 at 1:06 pm

 avatarTemporary Aura wrote

Doubtful these guys have ever read Rudyard Kipling's 'If'.

Yep: I doubt whether they have read another of his famous poems either "The Female of the Species"
When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male….

I tell you, those guys will leave the toilet seat up just one too many times.

BTW – why is this such a hard thing to do?? Huh? Huh? Well?

Sheer bloody laziness!! That's what it is.

These men need to experience the following...

Imagine going on an agreeable night out. You come back somewhat tipsy and pleasantly tired from shaking your funky stuff (maybe you are getting a bit old for such things now and don't have the stamina you once had). Now you sit down unthinkingly in your powder room. Just for a moment you understand; in order take off your dancing boots. Suddenly you find yourselves sitting way further down the lavatory than is natural and with your face next to a toilet seat with yellow stains on it.

Not nice is it? Put the seat down gents. I tell you this for your own good.

Other Comments by Corylus

33. Comment #49352 by Dr Benway on June 11, 2007 at 3:26 pm

 avatarchezzyd:
...biological 'norms' that men are stronger and therefore must be dominant/superior and can enforce such a position through violence and that this is echoed in societies throughout time - including today. I sometimes wonder if, as human animals, we will ever be able to escape this.
Dunno. In many animals, competitive violence is largely symbolic. Male strength is like the peacock's tail: more pretty than necessary. The difference between the sexes isn't so much due to Brutus' ability to overpower females. It's the females who are selecting strong male mates.

Vive la difference, non?

Brutus is easily murdered in his sleep, by the way.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

34. Comment #49359 by alovrin on June 11, 2007 at 3:43 pm

 avatarepeeist
shouldnt it be:-{)

Other Comments by alovrin

35. Comment #49364 by chezzyd on June 11, 2007 at 4:08 pm

"Dunno. In many animals, competitive violence is largely symbolic. Male strength is like the peacock's tail: more pretty than necessary. The difference between the sexes isn't so much due to Brutus' ability to overpower females. It's the females who are selecting strong male mates."

->Oh Dr Benway, surely you don't mean that? As far as I understand it, the threat of violence is at least as powerful as actual violence. And besides is it not implicit that whomever wins the posturing/fighting amongst the males their automatic 'prize' is access to females? Doesn't sound much like of a choice to me. Of course there are species where this is not the case, I'm thinking of birds etc but in the larger mammals I'd definitely say pretty peacock feathers don't have much of a say in matters!

"Vive la difference, non?"

-> I'd happily agree with you if difference did not bring prejudice or disadvantage with it. I've always liked to think of women and men as yin and yang, that one needs/complements the other. Shame this is not actually practiced in real life.

"Brutus is easily murdered in his sleep, by the way."

-> If you want to be a murderer of course. Again in reality this just leads to accusations of cold, premeditated murder, rather than a sudden uncontrollable fit of passion or rage which gets you manslaughter or temporary insanity. Killing with your bare hands is one thing, reaching for a weapon is something else!!!

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