1. Comment #50282 by maton100 on June 16, 2007 at 10:49 am

Check out this "gangsta" preacher:

http://thestubborncurmudgeon.blogspot.com

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2. Comment #50285 by USA_Limey on June 16, 2007 at 11:39 am

Ahh... good one by Hitch here; where he allows his devlish humor and love of a good profanity every now and again to come out. He didn't have to worry about a mixed audience at a book signing for this one.

My favourite part, and I paraphrase:

"The guy who says, 'there, but for the grace of god, go I', really means; there by the grace of god goes some other fucker"


He probably didn't come up with it but he says it so well.

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3. Comment #50303 by MIND_REBEL on June 16, 2007 at 3:22 pm

I'll listen to it later. His book is amazing.

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4. Comment #50324 by BT Murtagh on June 16, 2007 at 7:25 pm

Anybody got a transcript? I spend half my time on a computer with no speakers.

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5. Comment #50328 by LeeLeeOne on June 16, 2007 at 8:45 pm

Aside from it being difficult to hear (they must have been using stationary microphones and not lapel microphones), and having to to back up and do volume adjustments to hear what was said, my gut instincts from this particular interview makes me feel that Mr. Hitchens seemed to be speaking from "both sides of his mouth."

Regardless, could someone please give me their "feelings", "interpretations", "ideas", on their gut instincts regarding this interview. Also, the phrase Mr. Hitchens uses, "... but I'm perfectly happy with their being irreconcilable contradictions..." I would be most appreciative of any opinions and/or interpretations.

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6. Comment #50329 by GodlessHeathen on June 16, 2007 at 8:57 pm

Anyone have the MP3? The hosting site has reached its bandwidth limit.

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7. Comment #50333 by jwoodcould on June 16, 2007 at 11:22 pm

Link is farked.

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8. Comment #50345 by gcdavis on June 17, 2007 at 2:45 am

I get the bandwidth error to!

In the meantime let me run this past you.
Posts to this site now run into the hundreds of thousands but we rarely get to grips with this fundamental question; why do "they" continue to believe and what is it about you and me that mean we don't?

I realise that 10 reasons are an arbitrary number but this is my take on it:


10 reasons why people believe in god

1. They are born into a family with a particular religious belief
2. That belief is consolidated by attendance at a place of worship and ritualised ceremonies
3. During childhood that belief is not questioned by parents or influential adults
4. The prospect of life after death is used as an incentive to reinforce their faith
5. The "truth" of their religion becomes an unchallengeable fact
6. Religion provides garrison against an uncertain and apparently hostile world
7. That without adherence to religious teachings, humans would revert to savagery
8. The existence of god gives meaning to an otherwise purposeless life
9. The perception that religious faith benefits society
10. They are convinced by the longevity of their religion and of the authenticity of their "holy" book


10 reasons why people do not believe in god

1. They are raised in a free thinking family where questioning all assumptions is encouraged
or
2. As they mature they begin to question the widely held assumption that god exists
3. They seek a rational explanation for all human experience including morality
4. They deem the myriad of claims from religions old and new to be contradictory and false
5. They think religion is divisive and dangerous as it is impervious to reason
6. They consider that belief to be a delusion that impedes the development of humankind
7. They recognize that uncertainty and purposeless is the natural state
8. They acknowledge that at the end of this life is there is no other
9. They seek fulfilment through human relationships without supernatural endorsement
10. They trust that science is the most likely vehicle for improving the future lot of humankind

The religious will doubtless look a my list and say how bleak it is, whereas theirs is cosy and secure and it is this dependency on the comforting narcotic of religion that is difficult to overcome. But the reality is of course that our lives are rich and fulfilled and that for 95% of the time, for most of us, our atheism is no more important than the colour of our hair.

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9. Comment #50350 by Andrew on June 17, 2007 at 4:36 am

'why do "they" continue to believe and what is it about you and me that mean we don't?'

Interesting question, and I agree with most of the reasons given by the above poster. For what it's worth, here are the two main factors that led me to become an atheist (which I did at the age of about 16, after having a mildly religious upbringing):

1) Knowledge of evolution. Once I understood that there was nothing 'special' about human beings, atheism became the logical viewpoint. In other words, I concluded that evolution was inconsistent with theism (interesting to note that creationists will draw the exact same conclusion, except that because they 'know' that their god is real, they will conclude that it is the real-life evidence for evolution rather than their own imaginary friend which must be discarded!)

2) Certain teachings of religion are just so blatantly man-made. The most obvious example being the idea that if you believe then you will go to heaven after you die, while if you don't believe then you will burn in hell. Once I stepped outside the bubble of Christianity and examined that idea from the outside, it became blindingly obvious that it was a nothing more than a scare tactic designed to bully and control the faithful.

There is nothing hugely sophisticated in the above - just a bit of healthy scepticism and critical thinking. In fact I am almost a bit embarrassed that it took me until the age of 16 to figure it out! Still, the majority of people on the planet will probably never 'see the light' so I suppose 'we' should all count ourselves lucky.

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10. Comment #50351 by appaZ on June 17, 2007 at 5:21 am

Having trouble getting hold of the file for some reason. Thought I would drop this off while I was here. Written in the early eighties. Still holds true. I'm sure Mr Hitchens could muster a chuckle over this also.

( sung in a low sinister voice, much like the guy that does the Hollywood promo's for up and coming horror films - The Grudge etc. )

Lyrics by Frank Zappa - Dumb All Over

Whoever we are, wherever we're from
We shoulda noticed by now our behavior is dumb
And if our chances expect to improve
It's gonna take a lot more than tryin' to remove
The other race, or the other whatever
From the face of the planet altogether
They call it THE EARTH, which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right 'cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over!
Dumb all over, yes we are
Dumb all over, near'n far
Dumb all over, black 'n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left, nurds on the right
Religious fanatics on the air every night
Sayin' the Bible tells the story
Makes the details sound real gory
'Bout what to do if the geeks over there
Don't believe in the book we got over here
You can't run a race without no feet
'N pretty soon there won't be no street
For dummies to jog on or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics can make it be all gone
(I mean it won't blow up 'n disappear
It'll just look ugly for a thousand years...)
You can't run a country by a book of religion
Not by a heap, or a lump, or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules of ancient date
Designed to make you all feel great
While you fold, spindle, and mutilate
Those unbelievers from a neighboring state
TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That's great, two legs ain't bad
Unless there's a crate they ship the parts to mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get down!)
Not his, not hers (but what the hey?)
The Good Book says: "It's gotta be that way!"
But their book says: "REVENGE THE CRUSADES. . .
With whips 'n chains 'n hand grenades. . ."
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our God says: "There ain't no other!"
Our God says "It's all okay!"
Our God says "This is the way!"
It says in the book: "Burn 'n destroy. ..
'N repent, 'n redeem 'n revenge, 'n deploy
'N rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
'Cause they don't go for what's in the book 'n that makes 'em BAD
So verily we must choppeth them up, and stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb to poof them out of existence
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again for temples in which to praise OUR GOD
("Cause he can really take care of business!")
And when his humble TV servant with humble white hair
And humble glasses and a nice brown suit
And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says it's okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
'Cause if we don't do it, we ain't goin' wine up to hebbin!
(Depending on which book you're using at the time...
Can't use theirs. . .it don't work . . .it's all lies...Gotta use mine...)
Ain't that right? That's what they say every night...Everyday. ..
Hey, we can't really be dumb if we're just following God's Orders
Hey, let's get serious...God knows what he's doin'
He wrote this book here and the book says:
He made us all to be just like Him,"
so...If we're dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)

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11. Comment #50400 by USA_Limey on June 17, 2007 at 7:01 pm

I downloaded this beore they exceeded their bandwidth. I have the MP3 I'll e-mail it to anyone who sends me their e-mail.

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12. Comment #50402 by Roy_H on June 17, 2007 at 10:24 pm

Comment #50282 by maton100 on June 16, 2007 at 10:49 am
That page is hilarious! The skit on Alister McGrath is precious e.g.

"Many of the reporters and faculty members were amazed at how Alister McGrath was simultaneously capable of proving God's existence and the veracity of Christianity as a doctrine of literal fact by way of rhetorical phrasing often reserved for psychiatric patients, verbally-challenged schizophrenics and psychotic obscurantists under clinical observation."

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13. Comment #50428 by ScienceBreath on June 18, 2007 at 5:28 am

Thanks to maton100 for linking to The Stubborn Curmudgeon. It's well worth a visit just to read the parody of McGrath HERE.

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14. Comment #50435 by konquererz on June 18, 2007 at 6:14 am

Love the Stubborn Curmudgeon site, hilarious!

I have a comment about the list of reasons why people believe. I have to say that top reason is absolute. Thats why I believed. But then, why do people like me break away when they were seriously indoctrinated as a child. Take my case for instances:
1. "Saved" at 5 yrs
2. "spake in tongues" at 7 yrs (for those of you never religious, thats a little holy ghost razzle dazzle! Gooobly boobly goo! Crazy talk!)
3. Handed out "tracts" on the street at 8 yrs
4. Went to camp "jesus camp" every year until I was 16, this included your run of the mill repentance and re dedications to the great Hey!Seuss!
5. Rededicated my life and started "really" studying the bible at age 22
6. Dumped Christianity at age 24
7. Dumped god at age 25
8. Dumped being nice to religion at at 26

I got every single type of indoctrination you can have. My parents are still super evangelical fundamentalists. Vote for every republican, love bush and think he is doing great and that he is a man of god, you name it. Yet, I still found a way to break free. So what makes a person shed the chains he was born into and become free?

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15. Comment #50454 by Rtambree on June 18, 2007 at 8:14 am

14. Comment #50435 by konquererz

>So what makes a person shed the chains he was born into and become free?

This is perhaps an even more fascinating question that "why do we believe" which seems increasingly clear that religiosity per country is simply a factor of insecurity.

100% about-face conversions are rare - perhaps you should submit your brain for scanning and other tests. In any case, congratulations to you - your conversion strengthens the notion that we have at least some free will, and are not just flotsam on an ocean of genetic and environmental determinism.

Have you changed some/all political views with your conversion to atheism?

Abortion?
"Just" war and Defense spending?
Gun control?
Capital Punishment?
Gay marriage and adoption?
Environmental concerns?
Science funding and education?
Foreign aid?
Multilateral versus unilateral?
Inheritance and welfare?
Universal Health insurance?

Judging by your stated views on Bush, I trust you've become more christian since renouncing Christianity, if you know what I mean.

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16. Comment #50458 by Sargeist on June 18, 2007 at 9:32 am

Those Frank Zappa lyrics reminded me of one of my favourite singers: the Illustrious Lemmy from Motorhead.

Q. Who would win in a fight between Lemmy and God?
A. Trick question - Lemmy *is* God

Okay, so it's not my joke, never mind.

Back to the point: Good old Lemmy and co had a song on their recent Kiss of Death album called "God was never on your side", which includes the great words:

Let the sword of reason shine,
Let the pious vanish for all time.
God' face is hidden, all unseen,
You can't ask him what it all means.

And also:

Let the sword of reason shine
Let us be free of prayer & shrine
God's face is hidden, turned away
He never has a word to say

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17. Comment #50460 by Bruno on June 18, 2007 at 9:41 am

Re: The top 10 reasons why people believe.

Seems to me that the only thing I can think of that needs to be added or referenced in some way is FEAR as a driving force for belief (i.e., If they don't believe they will be PUNISHED for eternity). While many believe because they are certain they will be rewarded for doing so, I tend to think that MOST believe because they FEAR eternal punishment or separation from loved ones after death. Fear is a far more effective tool than reward can ever be. Also, I have personally been accused of everything from being "influenced by Satan" to being "in league with Satan" for just asserting the simple undeniable proofs of evolution. It seems to me that there is a fear out there (especially with Fundamentalists) of demonic forces at play. They believe that evolution is a satanic conspiracy; they believe Muhammad and even gentle Buddah are satanic plots, all of which must be avoided at all costs. Fear, in my opinion, is a major driving force and a main proponent of religious belief.

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18. Comment #50461 by ignored_ethos2 on June 18, 2007 at 9:45 am

konquererz:

Warning: wild speculation…

At the risk of sounding elitist or perpetuating the common criticism that atheist are arrogant I have to say that my theory is that these types of conversions are possible due to a combination of intelligence and education.

I know it is true that many claim faith and are also very educated and intelligent so I qualify this by saying that I believe these to be merely sufficient factors for escaping Christianity and only a rough indicator not a perfect (or even precise) indicator of atheism.

However, sometimes I suspect, and I must stress that I do not believe this in all cases, that many of these intelligent, educated theist are not being honest either with themselves or with others. They may have ulterior motives for their beliefs or may have too much intellectual (or other) capital invested and cannot afford to be honest about their lack of belief.

I also know that it could be true that there are atheists that are uneducated people of only average (or lower) intelligence and that the fact that I have not ever met any is not a valid argument against their existence. Still, if they do exist I don't see this as something that invalidates my reasoning unless they existed in very large numbers because I would suspect their numbers would be small. If so, it would further support the following crazy assumption that I'm about to make.

I have absolutely no evidence to support my assertions (though some may exist) so take them with a grain of salt but I would not be surprised if it was found that intelligence and education is inversely proportionate to the chances that a person is a theist.

If anyone has any data related to this type of question I'd love to see it and it doesn't matter if it shows me to be completely wrong in every way because unlike the vast majority of Christians I sort of like being proved wrong. How else will I know when I'm correct?

-ie

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19. Comment #50462 by DavidJGrossman on June 18, 2007 at 9:53 am

Dumb All Over video by a popular "YouTube Atheist" (feh, I hate that term)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RodRD4-sQ2s

- Dave

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20. Comment #50463 by Rtambree on June 18, 2007 at 9:59 am

19. Comment #50461 by ignored_ethos2

>that many of these intelligent, educated theist are not being honest either with themselves or with others.

Yes, there are TWO delusions. The God Delusion, and a second delusion, whereby people think they've reached their conclusion through rational means, whereas in fact, the motivation is emotional. There's the well known God of the Epistemological Gaps and a less well known God of the Emotional Gaps.

>I also know that it could be true that there are atheists that are uneducated people of only average (or lower) intelligence

I've noticed that in Australia, it seems to be class-related. The very lower classes and upper classes are both equally irreligious - but for different reasons. The welfare and working classes just couldn't care - they never went to private religious schools, and anaesthetise themselves with alcohol, marijuana, and other drugs. The upper classes are too intelligent and sophisticated for all that nonsense, and anaesthetise themselves with decadent, opulent lifestyles.

Religion seems to peak in the *middle* classes - it's their drug to counter the nihilism of mindless materialism. Obviously there are different cultural forces driving religiosity in Australia than in other countries.

Has anyone else noted a class correlation of religiosity in their country?

The evidence seems to suggest that atheism is correlated with (1) science literacy, (2) standard of living, and (3) economic security. The less you need God, the less you believe in Him.

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21. Comment #50465 by Ragnar0kk on June 18, 2007 at 10:12 am

someone who has this please upload it to rapidshare or one of 100 other free webhosting sites!

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22. Comment #50489 by sheepscarer on June 18, 2007 at 12:25 pm

Definitely agree with Rtambree about science literacy being one of the key factors in smashing the fascination with all things mystical. If you don't know how the world works anything seems possible.

The best way to undermine religious belief is to make prominent disbelief. Suspending disbelief at the theatre or cinema is quickly subverted if somebody in the audience starts loudly declaiming 'how it's done'. We need to make it common knowledge that a large number of us think belief in a god is ridiculous and childish (who was it who said something about that 'monstrous father figure'?) Unfortunately, at the moment it is only academics who are prepared to air their views . We need somebody incredibly well-respected and very well-known to make it clear that gods are manmade and offensive to our scientific view of the world. Someone like David Attenborough should produce a series where the fabulous photography is underpinned by a strong evolutionary narrative. The introduction should dispel any superstitious nonsense about creation and the special place of mankind. Remember his programmes are watched by millions in the UK.

We shouldn't respect religion. Religion disrepects human ingenuity and achievment.

Just heard on the news that Salman Rushdie has been knighted - how long before books will be burning in the streets?

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23. Comment #50492 by littleatoms on June 18, 2007 at 12:38 pm

Thanks for all the interest in the interview, so much interest in fact that the website couldn't cope with it. I'm busy sorting it out, meanwhile, i've posted the last 5 Little Atoms interviews, including the Christopher Hitchens, to archive.org see link below;

http://www.archive.org/details/Little_Atoms_Interviews

all the best, Neil Denny

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24. Comment #50594 by SamHandwich on June 19, 2007 at 2:28 am

Thanks for posting that Hitchens interview in a place where we could access it. I really appreciate it.

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25. Comment #50598 by GodlessHeathen on June 19, 2007 at 4:07 am

Thank you, LittleAtoms!

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26. Comment #50642 by minstrel on June 19, 2007 at 7:33 am

Well done, Little Atoms.

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27. Comment #51126 by pewkatchoo on June 21, 2007 at 2:58 pm

Yay hitch. Kick that silly bitch Shirley Williams into touch. What a stupid woman she is. It's thanks to people like her that the UK has the problems it does at the moment. Leftie wooly thinking sheep.

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