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New laws shore up providers' right to refuse treatment based on values2. Comment #51352 by Devolution on June 22, 2007 at 12:58 pm
3. Comment #51353 by Bonzai on June 22, 2007 at 1:02 pm
I remember reading on the bbc that some muslim doctors in Europe don't disinfect their hands with alcohol because alcohol is harem(forbidden) in Islam.4. Comment #51355 by happyatheist on June 22, 2007 at 1:07 pm
"These idiots "practicing" medicine deserve to be exposed and run out of Dodge."5. Comment #51363 by RabbitDynamite on June 22, 2007 at 1:35 pm
That's actually physically sickening.6. Comment #51364 by graham513 on June 22, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Mr. Hitchens wasn't kidding when he said it "poisons everything".7. Comment #51365 by konquererz on June 22, 2007 at 1:42 pm
8. Comment #51366 by Nails on June 22, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Ob/gyn Wayne Goldner, M.D., learned this lesson a few years back when a patient named Kathleen Hutchins came to his office in Manchester, New Hampshire. She was only 14 weeks pregnant, but her water had broken. Dr. Goldner delivered the bad news: Because there wasn't enough amniotic fluid left and it was too early for the fetus to survive on its own, the pregnancy was hopeless. Hutchins would likely miscarry in a matter of weeks. But in the meanwhile, she stood at risk for serious infection, which could lead to infertility or death. Dr. Goldner says his devastated patient chose to get an abortion at local Elliot Hospital. But there was a problem. Elliot had recently merged with nearby Catholic Medical Center and as a result, the hospital forbade abortions.
"I was told I could not admit her unless there was a risk to her life," Dr. Goldner remembers. "They said, 'Why don't you wait until she has an infection or she gets a fever?' They were asking me to do something other than the standard of care. They wanted me to put her health in jeopardy." He tried admitting Hutchins elsewhere, only to discover that the nearest abortion provider was nearly 80 miles away in Lebanon, New Hampshire and that she had no car. Ultimately, Dr. Goldner paid a taxi to drive her the hour and a half to the procedure. (The hospital merger has since dissolved, and Elliot is secular once again.)
9. Comment #51367 by jaytee_555 on June 22, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Before training and graduation, medical students should declare if they are unwilling to provide the sort of treatment discussed in this article. Those who choose to opt out of providing perfectly legal procedures on religious (or any other grounds) should be given an inferior and limited qualification, reflected in the letters after their name. Suggestions being, O.P.Q. (Only Partially Qualified) or I.F.C. (I'm a F***ing Cretin).10. Comment #51369 by Blue Lithium on June 22, 2007 at 1:52 pm
That's horrible. Just another way that religious beliefs are given too much respect in society. How about this--if you don't agree with abortion/birth control et al, don't become a goddamned doctor.11. Comment #51371 by kwietman on June 22, 2007 at 1:55 pm
As a healthcare provider in the U.S. (I'm a Physician Assistant), this absolutely drives me nuts. If you don't want to do women's reproductive health, DON'T BECOME A GYNECOLOGIST! You don't see this happening in Cardiology or Dermatology, do you? It's the same damn thing that leads to Catholic charities allowing people in Africa to die of AIDS because condoms are against Vatican Law. We were talking about this at lunch in my office. This is an ideology that affects pretty much one population: women, and more typically poor women who have limited reproductive options to begin with. To have their doctor moralizing about their sexuality just underscores an entrenched sexism in medicine. Well, really, it's the sexism of religion, but it bleeds into these areas at will. The "Father Phenomenon," in which there is a patriarchal control of morality, whether it's the men of the village or the skyfather.12. Comment #51373 by wendelin on June 22, 2007 at 2:08 pm
I am outraged. How can it be legal for essential-care providers to deny access to legal procedures?13. Comment #51376 by Corylus on June 22, 2007 at 2:15 pm
14. Comment #51381 by scottishgeologist on June 22, 2007 at 2:27 pm
15. Comment #51382 by LeeLeeOne on June 22, 2007 at 2:28 pm
16. Comment #51388 by icanus on June 22, 2007 at 3:04 pm
"Doctors are people, too," she adds. "We have to be able to leave the hospital and live with ourselves. If you feel in your heart an action would cause harm to somebody born or unborn it's legitimate to decline to participate."
17. Comment #51398 by Celandine on June 22, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Absolutely appalling.18. Comment #51414 by woollybear on June 22, 2007 at 5:56 pm
19. Comment #51424 by troyreynolds86 on June 22, 2007 at 10:19 pm
If these particular doctors wish to refuse a particular procedure, and our legislatures create laws to hold up that "right", then fine, there are ways in which such priviledges should be practiced. First and foremost, when a patient visits a doctor the patient, entering into a relationship of trust with a learned professional, should have a right to any ideological restrictions the doctor may have pertaining to the available and legal treatments. The doctors, as my solution would have it, should provide a detailed list of procedures that they cannot perform for any reason. These lists should be public knowledge, available by request, posted in the hospital so that the patient can read and decide if this doctor is the right fit for him or her, especially her as women are exponentially more effected by this, long before that doctor has access to the patient. If a patient is taked to an available hospital in an emergency or is restricted, by any circumstances, in option of hospitals, and the hospital or doctor refused an otherwise typical treatment for ideological reasons, it is a failing of the hospital to meet the needs of the patient, and the hospital, being the perpetrator of the failing or the employer of the perpetrator, should be bound by law to transport, if permitted by the health of the patient, to a facility that can and will perform all available medical procedures. It is not the fault of the patient that the doctor finds certain procedures unethical, it is the fault of the doctor and the patient should not suffer for it. This being said, all care given by the initial hospital, as well as the transportation, should be provided pro bono as it qualifies as a failing of the hospital to meet the needs of the patient, not the failings of the patient for having lack of choice.20. Comment #51436 by kamisama on June 22, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Many readers' responses to the problems described in this article seem to be that the physicians should not refuse treatment. But what if religious demands were made of non-religious physicians? Consider the various forms of genital mutilations that religions have been espousing. I wouldn't want to hash up some kid's genitals simply because the parents weren't happy with how their child was born; I probably wouldn't even refer them to a doctor who would do it. I'd want to send them away and tell them to not come back (but due to laws regarding patient abandonment, that's probably not an option). Now consider what should happen if a religious ritual could be non-religiously justified. What if research done in Africa (to get around human-research ethics committees) "proved" that FGM could reduce rates of HIV infection? Should physicians be forced to participate in religious rituals simply because they have been recast in a medical setting?21. Comment #51438 by Corylus on June 23, 2007 at 1:02 am
But what if religious demands were made of non-religious physicians?
What if research done in Africa (to get around human-research ethics committees) "proved" that FGM could reduce rates of HIV infection? Should physicians be forced to participate in religious rituals simply because they have been recast in a medical setting?
What about "unnecessary" treatments? Cosmetic surgeries on kids who have been coerced by their parents to agree? Drugs known to be ineffective against a particular ailment (antibiotics for viral infections)? Tests unlikely to reveal anything not already known or suspected by the doctor? Etc.
Many surgeons probably refuse (or should refuse) to ampute off people with body integrity identity disorder. They'll amputate the guy who doesn't want to lose his leg, but not the guy who doesn't want the leg. Lifestyle discrimination?
22. Comment #51446 by Jonathan Dore on June 23, 2007 at 1:29 am
Medical schools should screen students for beliefs that would prevent them doing their job properly as doctors, and politely suggest to such people that they find another line of work. And if a doctor develops a supernatural delusion later in life in such a way as to bring on this peculiar obsession with controlling women's sexuality, they should be disbarred -- not for their religion, since many such doctors nevertheless manage to maintain a sense of proportion and do the right thing in spite of their faith's teachings -- but because they have rendered themselves unfit to perform their jobs properly. Depending on how long they've been practising beforehand, they should also be required to repay a portion of the costs of their wasted medical training, so the money can be recycled to other, hopefully more worthy applicants.23. Comment #51552 by The Wee Flea on June 23, 2007 at 11:09 am
This IS a very complicated subject - but not to the fundamentalists who want to impose their atheistic morality on everyone else. 'screen doctors' who don't accept your view of morality?! How totalitarian is that? If medicine was left to atheists and secularists then we would be in a pretty poor state (unless of course you persuaded them to do 'their job' by giving them whacking great salaries and allowed them to exploit their scientific knowledge by making a profit out of human sickness - oops forgot. Secular capitalism already got there!).24. Comment #51555 by bluebird on June 23, 2007 at 11:36 am
25. Comment #51558 by Robert Maynard on June 23, 2007 at 11:50 am
This IS a very complicated subject - but not to the fundamentalists who want to impose their atheistic morality on everyone else.Impose what, exactly? "Atheistic morality", insofar as it should be considered as something separate from 21st century moral philosophy (it shouldn't), is not an imposition on anyone. It holds the simplest precept in the Hippocratic oath paramount - "do no harm", better phrased as "suffering sucks - help each other avoid it".
if medicine was left to atheists and secularists then we would be in a pretty poor statereally makes no sense at all. I don't understand what you're basing it on.
26. Comment #51565 by Quetzalcoatl on June 23, 2007 at 12:07 pm
27. Comment #51566 by Corylus on June 23, 2007 at 12:10 pm
I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant
28. Comment #51599 by Zaphod on June 23, 2007 at 5:08 pm
29. Comment #51609 by MelM on June 23, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Part of a long list of items in religion's "culture of misery."30. Comment #51638 by kamisama on June 23, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Treatment should not have been denied to the patients described in the article. However, requiring physicians to hold particular beliefs or perform particular treatments is a poor solution to the problem. Religious preferences would inevitably sneak onto the list of required treatments.31. Comment #51643 by kamisama on June 23, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Corylus:A beneficence argument: People with BIID suffer psychologically. If they cannot be helped by a psychologist or psychiatrist, their suffering can be alleviated by physical amputation.
A non-malefience argument: By not amputating the person with BIID, we cause that person to suffer further mental anguish. In effect, we are torturing that person by refusing to amputate.
An autonomy argument: People with BIID feel that possessing certain limbs prevents them from being the people they should be. They feel incomplete. By amputating them, we allow them to become the people they were meant to be.
A justice/resource argument: People with BIID will go to great lengths to lose limbs. They will injure themselves and risk the loss of their lives to lose limbs. The doctors will do everything possible to save those limbs. When the doctor is "successful" and the patients have completed lengthy recoveries, the cycle begins again. The BIID affected people again seek injuries that may result in the loss life or limb. Thus tremendous resources are expended over time trying to save unwanted limbs -- preventing physicians from helping people who want to keep their limbs. Thus, if a person with BIID cannot be psychiatrically treated, removing unwanted limbs prevents the loss of resources that might be needed to help someone else.
The four principles are in agreement, therefore BIID people deserve to have what they want -- amputation.
32. Comment #51645 by Robert Maynard on June 23, 2007 at 11:41 pm
They may have the well-being of their patients' eternal souls in mind.A physician's expertise simply does not extend to metaphysical concepts. I can't say it any simpler - they don't teach that in medical school - it isn't medicine. In this regard the doctor is no better than a layperson in terms of information, yet they are exercising an experts level of authority. Advice that enters 'eternal soul' territory has explicitly left the doctors expert purview, and they are authoritatively speaking about things no one could possibly know - including existence after death. This is.. highly unethical.
33. Comment #51687 by Corylus on June 24, 2007 at 5:24 am
Treatment should not have been denied to the patients described in the article.
Some doctors who decide not to treat patients on religious grounds may be abusing principles. They may well have the well being of the patient's eternal souls in mind.
34. Comment #51697 by hightrekker on June 24, 2007 at 6:53 am
It is just common wisdom--35. Comment #51722 by ghostbuster on June 24, 2007 at 10:44 am
How about public-private systems? Doctors employed by a secular government provide the treatments as per their job description. You don't like it, set up a private clinic. Much of this is also hinging on moral relativity, that being that all morality is equally moral because of cultural beliefs--not only those based on religion, but on tradition---you see this in the practice of folklore medicine, most of it being "lore", and in Canada, the new Health Directorate now allows the practice of usless and dangerous alternative medicines under the guise of "cultural sensitivties". Science and rationality have been usurped by belief, however non-rational they may be. People are always "screened" during job interviews or even upon reading a resume. No need to get all conspiracy about it, or big brotherly. It is not big brotherly to request standards of job suitability, and if your religious belief does not allow you to perform the job description as outlined, then one either sets up their own business or moves on. What are we moving towards---postmen who won't deliver "questionable" mail, whatever they may find "questionable"? Garbagemen who won't pick up "qestionable" garbage? Journalists who won't write about something because it might be offensive (to them or others)?36. Comment #51760 by kamisama on June 24, 2007 at 6:05 pm
None of what I write is meant to imply that anyone holds any particular beliefs.37. Comment #51761 by kamisama on June 24, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Following are some clarifications:38. Comment #51768 by Robert Maynard on June 24, 2007 at 8:01 pm
39. Comment #51769 by phasmagigas on June 24, 2007 at 8:05 pm
40. Comment #51770 by phasmagigas on June 24, 2007 at 8:12 pm
41. Comment #51792 by Corylus on June 25, 2007 at 1:26 am
42. Comment #51803 by Philip1978 on June 25, 2007 at 4:40 am
43. Comment #51828 by logical on June 25, 2007 at 7:18 am
44. Comment #51833 by pewkatchoo on June 25, 2007 at 7:56 am
45. Comment #51840 by I'mNotAlone on June 25, 2007 at 9:12 am
Not sure if anyone else has already asked this, but how does the religion of doctors affect their treatment of patients of other religions?46. Comment #51879 by Corylus on June 25, 2007 at 1:07 pm
47. Comment #51999 by No Faith on June 25, 2007 at 9:35 pm
The "standard of care" is evidence based medicine(i.e. well designed studies guiding practice). In the absence of conclusive evidence physicians should be excercising their judgement as to which therapies will offer the best outcome. A physicians personal religious or political views should not be entering into the process. In order for a physician to defend their choice of therapy (or lack thereof) it must be described only in terms of evidence. "It's against my religion" is not a valid evidence based argument.48. Comment #52013 by ridelo on June 25, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Maybe it would be a good idea that medical personnel would carry a big sign telling their religious stance so you could make your choice before they had the opportunity to fiddle with your body. ;-)49. Comment #52016 by kamisama on June 26, 2007 at 12:27 am
Although it may not be a good idea to tell a doctor about your (lack of) religion, I think it's appropriate to discuss the doctor's religion because it might affect the quality of the care you receive someday. You don't necessarily need to ask about it directly; bring it up while asking about hospital affiliations. "I understand this hospital is catholic; I heard that catholic hospitals do not provide these services. How do you provide those services for your patients? What do you think about the church's influence on hospital policies?" Then depending on the response, you may find out about options that may be more to your liking or that this doctor is not the right one for you.50. Comment #52027 by Shuggy on June 26, 2007 at 1:12 am
1. Comment #51348 by k1mgy on June 22, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Lawsuits, lots of lawsuits. Formal complaints to boards of medical registration. Formal complaints to insurance providers. Lots of bad press. Public humiliation. Editorials. Picketing. Thrashing.
These idiots "practicing" medicine deserve to be exposed and run out of Dodge.
Other Comments by k1mgy