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Saturday, June 23, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document His word

by David Baddiel, Times Online

Reposted from:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article1971115.ece

'Attacking religion can seem like breaking a butterfly on a wheel'

I FIND, AS I GROW OLDER, THAT I AM perhaps not as up to speed with the Zeitgeist as I used to be. The rock subculture emo may, I think, have come and gone, and I'm still not entirely sure what it is/was. Web 2.0 is a phrase that I've noticed passing by in newspaper articles as if we all know what it means, but clearly I missed the explanatory one when it first arrived. I have yet – as a full-blooded modern male, I'm ashamed to admit this – to watch a single episode of 24 (although, as is the modern way, I do have the first series waiting for me in a box set, pining for that two-day-solid watching window), but I know that it is already passé, long jumped its shark, and that I should by now have moved on to Entourage. And, worst of all, I have only just started reading The God Delusion.

The pace of cultural debate being what it is these days, it feels, only a year after publication, very late to be reading this and even later to be writing about it, (although not as late as publishing another version of it, as Christopher Hitchens seems to have – although obviously, with my backlog, I haven't read God Is Not Great, and accept that this comment may be unfair).

In my defence, I was waiting until the paperback came out, because my shelves groan with unread hardbacks, left there out of a combination of comfort-concern – one's man-bag is so much less painful on the shoulder with a paperback – and a realisation that easyJet now charges £10 for every 20kg.

Anyway, it's interesting to read a book that you've read a lot about. I'm not just talking about reviews, but a book that caused a big old chattering-classes stir, with responses in The Sunday Times written in the name of God. A book that broke out of the Books pages on to the opinion pages, even on to the news pages. Thus my responses to it are not neutral, but waver upon a median line of expectation.

It is, for example, much funnier than I had expected. Sometimes I'm not sure that this is intended – Dawkins's recommendation in the preface (after a thank-you to his wife, the former Doctor Who companion Lalla Ward, for doing so) that all authors should employ an actor to read their manuscripts back to them before submission ("it must be a professional actor, with voice and ear sensitively tuned to the music of language") made me laugh out loud, bringing to mind how much Nigel Planer's brilliant comedy character Nicholas Craig would salivate at the work prospects that taking up this idea might create. However, I laughed with the author at – but was also surprised by – his use of sixth-form sarcasm. I just wasn't expecting the Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science of New College, Oxford, to quote long tracts by theologians and then begin his argument against them by saying: "Yeah, right." I wonder if Lalla got exactly the right Nick Hancock-style intonation.

I also have begun to understand why The God Delusion caused such ire. Logically religion is, of course, nonsense. Attacking it with logic, especially if you are as bright as Dawkins, causes its arguments to disintegrate so quickly that it can seem like bullying, like breaking a butterfly on a wheel. Except that this isn't a butterfly – it's a vast and powerful superstructure. You have to keep on reminding yourself of this when you read the book, because, within its confines, Dawkins seems (and is, intellectually) the high status one.

Nor was I expecting it to give up attacking the idea of God's existence so early (page 189 in the paperback), and turn into an ultra-Darwinian analysis of why religion exists at all. This is the bit that I'm at, and I don't like it as much.

The problem for ultra-Darwinians is that they have to assume that all things – including ideas, or memes as Dawkins calls them – progress via the animal narrative of natural selection (so religion, or rather the need for it, must serve some basic "positive" survival-enhancing purpose) but surely the key thing about religion is that we have it and animals don't. That is because we have consciousness of death and they don't. Thus we had to conjure religion, "that moth-eaten musical brocade created to pretend we never die", as Larkin puts it. Also, animals feel no need to explain the world; we do. We look at it long past the point where we are straightforwardly governed by our selfish genes, and what drives us are not the basic positives any more but the basic negatives: anxiety, fear, incomprehension, the desperate need to think that we know, to be "right"all the time, and, above all, to be parented – and there you have him, God.

Anyway, I'm off to listen to My Chemical Romance's lastest album. I have a lot to get through.

Comments 1 - 21 of 21 |

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1. Comment #51442 by GodlessHeathen on June 23, 2007 at 1:19 am

 avatarIs it me, or did that last full paragraph hit the wall with a bit of a splat? I think I've missed his point. Is this another "We need god and there's no alternative" thing?

Other Comments by GodlessHeathen

2. Comment #51444 by arildno on June 23, 2007 at 1:24 am

Animals don't have science to explain the world, either.
Nor are they in possession of art to facilitate our construction of meaning in our personal lives.

Wherever is the need of God in this picture?

Isn't it just as likely a cultural parasite that we should endeavour to exterminate?

Other Comments by arildno

3. Comment #51445 by BicycleRepairMan on June 23, 2007 at 1:24 am

 avatar"(so religion, or rather the need for it, must serve some basic "positive" survival-enhancing purpose) "

This is exactly what Dawkins argues AGAINST. This writer completely evades the point, that religion is a survival machine in its own right, it doesnt survive by benefiting us, it survives by benefiting itself, (the selfish meme)

Well, to be fair , now that I re-read the sentence, Dawkins does imply that religion is a by-product of something that is helpful to our survival. (like listening to your parents) But the way he says it, it does sound like he doesnt get the meme concept

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4. Comment #51448 by Jonathan Dore on June 23, 2007 at 1:35 am

Perhaps it would have been helpful if our Dave had got to the end of the book before writing his piece ...

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5. Comment #51451 by epicure on June 23, 2007 at 1:54 am

 avatarI assume that by 'animals' we actually mean 'other animals'?

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6. Comment #51453 by alovrin on June 23, 2007 at 2:01 am

 avatarWhy is it that some reviewers seem to approach reviews of anything vaguely derogatory of god or religion as if they have put a peg on their nose and donned surgical gloves lest they get infected.
The condescenion drips from every word, every syllable, every snooty turn of phrase. Why does this twit bother.
I bet this cock would get Vista, if he knew what it was.
If anyone see's him down the pub be sure to accidentally spill a pint on him. Tho' I doubt, he goes anywhere.

Just employing some sixth form tactics here tit for tat, so to speak.

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7. Comment #51454 by arildno on June 23, 2007 at 2:02 am

Thank you, epicure.
I was infected by the author's use of the word "animal", so I made a mistake.
I should, of course, said "other animals".

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8. Comment #51460 by pewkatchoo on June 23, 2007 at 2:19 am

 avatar
The problem for ultra-Darwinians is that they have to assume that all things – including ideas, or memes as Dawkins calls them – progress via the animal narrative of natural selection (so religion, or rather the need for it, must serve some basic "positive" survival-enhancing purpose) but surely the key thing about religion is that we have it and animals don't. That is because we have consciousness of death and they don't.

So David is now a zoologist. How is he so sure that animals do not have consciousness of death? Has he carried out experiments, etc, or is it just something he read somewhere? Animals certainly have fear. The next door neighbours cat runs for fucking miles when I come out to find it in our garden. That is my little experiment.

And WTF is an ultra-Darwinian? Yet another psuedo-intellekshul label from a guy who cannot even have a decent relationship with his razor.

David Badiel is a cretin, and a not very funny comedian too. He derides the chattering classes of which he is very clearly a founding member. Ignore him, there will be another along shortly.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

9. Comment #51462 by pissinintothewind on June 23, 2007 at 2:23 am

He obviously did`nt make any effort with this work and I doubt that he finished the book. A disrespectful, ill thought out piece of writing and as he said himself well past its sell by date. Not up to standard " our Dave ".

Other Comments by pissinintothewind

10. Comment #51463 by PaulJ on June 23, 2007 at 2:28 am

 avatar
...but surely the key thing about religion is that we have it and animals don't.
We also have art and mathematics.

The key thing, as I see it, is that we have a need to explain how things work, and (other) animals don't. But if we spend too much time trying to figure stuff out, other stuff -- such as survival -- is neglected. So some mental short-cuts, such as religion, are invoked.

"What's that big, hot, yellow thing in the sky? Where does it go at night?"

"That? Oh, that's God, who magicked everything into existence. Stop worrying about it and fetch me some food...."


Other Comments by PaulJ

11. Comment #51467 by Apemanblues on June 23, 2007 at 2:43 am

 avatarDavid Baddiel is a successful media darling, but Rob Newman (the other half of the 90's double act) is the most intelligent and funny stand-up comedian in the country today.

Search Google Video for Newmans 'History of Oil' act. You won't regret it.

Other Comments by Apemanblues

12. Comment #51472 by BMMcArdle on June 23, 2007 at 3:18 am

I think the point that the author was trying to make is that all other living things made it without religion-why is it necessary that we needed it for survival?

Other Comments by BMMcArdle

13. Comment #51479 by the great teapot on June 23, 2007 at 5:01 am

All he is saying is religion is the fear of death.
Nothing more.
I think the article was worth while if only for the imagery of the fragile butterfly of religion being broken by the giant wheel of simple logic.

Other Comments by the great teapot

14. Comment #51486 by stereoroid on June 23, 2007 at 5:31 am

 avatarI thought Baddiel was simply referring to the evolution of religion in historical terms, much as RD did in the book. I didn't think he was saying that he thinks religion is essential today, rather that he was being sarcastic...

Other Comments by stereoroid

15. Comment #51493 by colluvial on June 23, 2007 at 5:49 am

"so religion, or rather the need for it, must serve some basic "positive" survival-enhancing purpose"

I guess Baddiel is also not up to speed on the "selfishness" of genes and memes. He seems to think religion enhances human survival, when in reality all religion needs to do is spread through gullible human minds. Does he also think the malaria parasite has a "survival-enhancing purpose"?

Other Comments by colluvial

16. Comment #51510 by Ian on June 23, 2007 at 7:24 am

I think some of you have read this wrong.

I think Baddiel is actually commenting on the response to The God Delusion. That the reaction misrepresents it; hence Baddiel finding parts of the book funny and his reminder that religion is no butterfly on the wheel.

Nevertheless, his 'ultra-darwinist' comments show that he does need to read The Selfish Gene and Susan Blackmore's The Meme Machine. Even if he is not convinced, he should get plenty of food for thought.

Other Comments by Ian

17. Comment #51516 by Logicel on June 23, 2007 at 8:06 am

 avatarSince this article has been posted in two places at this site, it has two threads going at the moment--so here's my post from the other thread in a parallel universe:

First time I have ranked an article below average.

Baddiel, do yourself and us a favor and take a long vacation doing something you like, probably nothing. Just do nothing for a week or two. You sound super burnt out.

Not only do not take any books with you, but have some needy group come and haul away all those burdensome books, yet unread, ticking away like a literary/cultural bomb, on your groaning bookshelves. They may appreciate them more than you do or ever will.

Damg, I need a vacation after reading this, it gave me a bout of fatigue.

Other Comments by Logicel

18. Comment #51570 by the great teapot on June 23, 2007 at 12:27 pm

Logicel

David Baddiel is a very tounge in cheek comedian.
The self effacement of him being behind the zeitgeist etc is his main line. Don't take him too seriously. He is very "laid back".
On the other thread of this post(0r may be the last post) someone mentioned Melvyn Bragg, Now there is a typical "I used to be an atheist but I am alright now" pseudointellectual arsehole who needs some serious criticism.
(by needs serious criticism I mean disabusing of his delusion- he doesn't actually preach religion, oh my god I am a fundamentalist. Help)

Other Comments by the great teapot

19. Comment #51581 by CJ on June 23, 2007 at 1:47 pm

 avatarI thought it was a bit out of character for our pet Jewish football friend. Maybe he'll do a better job when he's finished it. The bit that rankles with me is he got paid for writing this. Money for old rope if you ask me!

Other Comments by CJ

20. Comment #51664 by Ian on June 24, 2007 at 2:49 am

the great teapot:

I listen regularly to Melvyn Bragg's In Our Time radio programme and don't recognise him from your description.

I recall no statement of religious opinion from Mr Bragg and the fact that he's had Professor Dawkins on twice, indicates that at least he's willing to listen, which is all we need.

Also, given that we've recently been treated to programmes on William of Ockham and Spinoza, I think he is giving an airing to ideas which normally muster on bookshelves.

More power to him, I say.

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21. Comment #51790 by MIND_REBEL on June 25, 2007 at 12:29 am

 avatarInteresting, but i don't like his fence sitting, i really couldn't tell what he was trying to say.

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