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Saturday, June 23, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document In the name of the Father

by Richard Harries

Reposted from The Guardian:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2109068,00.html#article_continue

God Is Not Great: The Case Against Religion
by Christopher Hitchens
307pp, Atlantic Books, £16.99

First Dennett, then Dawkins and now Hitchens: and of these three recent diatribes against religion, Christopher Hitchens's is the fiercest. For him religion is an evil that poisons everything and must be extirpated. And, as he has reported from some of the most violent places on earth (Rwanda, Beirut, Sri Lanka, Baghdad and so on), he has plenty of horror stories with which to depress his readers.

The evils perpetrated in the name of religion are real enough, and the intellectual crudities of some of its defenders obvious enough, to allow atheism to pass for a purification. But how is it that the majority of the world's great philosophers, composers, scholars, artists and poets have been believers, often of a very devout kind? Hitchens avoids facing that question by three less-than-subtle sleights of hand.

First, he redefines in his own terms what it is to be a Christian. The faith of Dietrich Bonhoeffer - a passionate follower of Jesus if there ever was one, who met execution for his part in the plot to assassinate Hitler with the words that for him death was a beginning - is described by Hitchens as "an admirable but nebulous humanism". Martin Luther King, whom he greatly admires, is assessed primarily on the grounds that his religious rhetoric was a tool required to galvanise the Bible-reading South against racism.

Second, Hitchens dismisses most of the great intellectual believers of the past on the grounds that their cosmology was outdated. But here he is involved in a fundamental contradiction. He recognises, rightly, that our present scientific understanding of the universe is only at the beginning. In a thousand years' time, if we humans are still around, no doubt our cosmology will be regarded as childish fumbling. But Hitchens's moral outrage against racism, cruelty to children and bigotry will be as valid then as now. Similarly, the philosophical arguments of Kant or Hume or Aquinas and the aesthetic judgments of Plato or Augustine can and ought to be considered in their own right, irrespective of the limitations of their scientific knowledge.

Third, he refuses to consider any modern writing that queries his relentless onslaught. Take just one example, his fifth-form argument that religion is the cause of war. The view of distinguished sociologists such as David Martin is that in the modern world wars are usually caused by factors other than religion, but that because religion is such a crucial marker of identity, it can be used by unscrupulous people to exacerbate conflict. This is a much more plausible account of the relationship between religion and conflict in the modern world than that of the usual pub atheist, and one that you would at least have thought worth examining.

Hitchens acknowledges the example of the schoolfriend who first made him inwardly resist school prayers, leading him to vow that "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory". But this misses the point. Religion is rooted in our capacity to recognise and appreciate value; in our search for truth; in our recognition that some things are good in themselves. We may think this is not true, just whistling in the dark. But it is in this capacity to recognise, appreciate and respond to what is of worth that religion has its origin. If "submission and surrender" have a place, it is only in the final insight that, if there is an ultimate goodness, it will by definition make a total difference to the way we view life.

If doctors make the wrong diagnosis it can be disastrous, and this is what Hitchens has done in relation to the ills of humanity. He seems to think that religion is the root of all evil. It isn't. The problem lies with us, especially when we are organised in groups with a dominant ideology, whether secular or religious. His misdiagnosis is not just a baleful intellectual error, it has very serious consequences in the modern world, where religion is now such a major player. It reinforces fundamentalists in their sense that they are a beleaguered, righteous minority, whereas what is needed is some way of getting them into dialogue with others. More seriously, it alienates the millions of ordinary, decent, moderate religious believers who look to their religion to help them in the struggle to live a better life. Most seriously of all, it hinders the alliance that should be forming between people of all shades of belief and unbelief in the basic struggle going on in every country for human rights, peace and economic justice against fanatics of all kinds.

Hitchens looks to a new enlightenment in which religion will disappear (ignoring the fact that the actual enlightenment was the work of Christians and Deists as much as atheists). But even if religion did disappear, which of course it won't, we human beings would still be here, organised in groups of various kinds, still beset by the same lack of self-knowledge, viciousness and moral weakness. Most urgently needed are political arrangements that can best contain, mitigate and overcome the worst effects of this, and here all people of wisdom need to cooperate, whatever the springs of their moral outlook. Hitchens has written a book that is seriously harmful, not because of his attack on religion, some of it deserved, but because he will divert people away from the real problem: which is we human beings, both religious and irreligious.

Richard Harries was Bishop of Oxford and is an honorary professor of theology at King's College, London. His latest book, The Re-enchantment of Morality: Wisdom for a Troubled World, will be published later in the year by SPCK

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1. Comment #51480 by Macho Nachos on June 23, 2007 at 5:10 am

 avatar"Most seriously of all, it hinders the alliance that should be forming between people of all shades of belief and unbelief in the basic struggle going on in every country for human rights, peace and economic justice against fanatics of all kinds."

Uhuh. And if the moderates don't realise that the fundies/fanatics are actually bad?

"Similarly, the philosophical arguments of Kant or Hume or Aquinas and the aesthetic judgments of Plato or Augustine can and ought to be considered in their own right, irrespective of the limitations of their scientific knowledge."

Haven't we heard this one before?

"The problem lies with us, especially when we are organised in groups with a dominant ideology, whether secular or religious."

YES! How can you write this and NOT realise that Hitchens is writing about the bad things done by people who follow organised group with a dominant religious ideology? It's a straw man to suggest that Hitchens thinks that without religion, there wouldn't be bad people, or that dogma would be a good thing. *sighs*

Other Comments by Macho Nachos

2. Comment #51488 by hungover on June 23, 2007 at 5:33 am

Of course most of the greatest philosophers etc. were religious. They lived without the knowledge that we have descended from apes. Now that it is less taboo to disbelieve, I think you will find that the most qualified people to speak on the origins of life (scientists)do not believe in god.

Certainly our current knowledge is limited compared to the future but evolution is as likely to be overturned as gravity. Unless we hear a more plausible explanation of life then logically there is no room for god.

Other Comments by hungover

3. Comment #51492 by nancy2001 on June 23, 2007 at 5:48 am

It's almost a waste of time to read these types of articles. What on earth could a bishop possibly say? "There is no god, and religion should disappear." Fat chance.

Other Comments by nancy2001

5. Comment #51500 by Friend Giskard on June 23, 2007 at 6:26 am

 avatar
Hitchens has written a book that is seriously harmful...

Hehe. The religiotards are rattled.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

6. Comment #51507 by GBile on June 23, 2007 at 7:05 am

Again 'the man is a sinner' myth:
But even if religion did disappear, which of course it won't, we human beings would still be here, organised in groups of various kinds, still beset by the same lack of self-knowledge, viciousness and moral weakness.

Religion has always been an evil engine in 'organising man in groups of various kinds'. I am sure the bishop has done his bit in this divide and conquer madness.

But he also hints on the solution in his article, although he might not realize this himself. He appeals to people of wisdom to cooperate. That's it, no groups of wisdom or congregations of wisdom, but people. I think atheists know this, hence the paucity of 'atheist organisations'. We talk together, cooperate and go our way.

No Bishop needed.

Other Comments by GBile

7. Comment #51508 by Mario07 on June 23, 2007 at 7:16 am

"First, he redefines in his own terms what it is to be a Christian."

Guess I missed it, but did the good Bishop offer a definition of a "Christian"? If Hitchens is wrong, shouldn't there be a rebuttal here?

"Second, Hitchens dismisses most of the great intellectual believers of the past on the grounds that their cosmology was outdated."

I believe the Bishop has completely missed the point here. Hitchens does not "dismiss" good ideas or ethics because they were discussed by our ancestors. He dismisses cruelty, bigotry, and superstition that was (is) based on ignorance. Me thinks the Bishop is torturing this one in order to find something to criticize.

"Third, he refuses to consider any modern writing that queries his relentless onslaught. Take just one example, his fifth-form argument that religion is the cause of war."

Apparently, only pub atheists see any real relationship between religion and violent conflict in the world. Guess we've just had it all wrong. The Bishop is surely right - religion has played no signficant role in fostering hatred between peoples. Uh.....wait......no, it has. Repeatedly and with great suffering. The Bishop seems to think that if he can find other causes, religion can be exonerated. No such luck. We need to work on all of them.

"all people of wisdom need to cooperate, whatever the springs of their moral outlook."

I look forward to sitting down with our fundamentalist Muslim friend in the hills of Pakistan to collaborate on how we can best achieve world peace. Clearly, their "springs of morality" will only help speed along a solution.

What crap. I hope Hitchens writes another book very soon so the Bishop can make an ass of himself for my reading entertainment.

Peace.

Other Comments by Mario07

8. Comment #51511 by PrimeNumbers on June 23, 2007 at 7:28 am

 avatarThey just don't get it, do they....

Is there any rational explanation to a big lie being told to old and young alike, being told under threat of eternal punishment? Then the lie is embelished so that people are to feel "sinful" if they don't go with the lie. Then the dogma stops the lie from changing.

I don't care if some people who beleive the lie do good. I'm sure they'd have done good anyway, after all, it's a lie. You speak to your normal moderate, and even less than moderate religious fruitcakes they they're not keen of the moral outrages of the bible any more than we are. They just compartmentailise, "apologise", and keep their religion.

There's the basic evil of religion right their, the evil of the lie, and the thought of "heaven" that stops people living this life to the full and justifies the most outrageous of crimes.

Religion is Evil.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

9. Comment #51512 by NoLongerHaveBelief on June 23, 2007 at 7:38 am

Hi Prime.

Religion is certainly divisive. Good AND Bad acts are committed on its behalf.

As a Weak Atheist, I wouldn't deny the religious their right to believe - and practice that belief, in a responsible manner.

Maybe, one day, we'll have this question solved by science. The Religious STILL wouldn't believe us Atheists though! Then it would be the work of the Devil.... :-)

Warm Regards, to believers and non-believers alike.

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

10. Comment #51517 by TIKI AL on June 23, 2007 at 8:09 am

"But how is it that the majority of the world's great philosophers, composers, scholars, artists and poets have been believers, often of a very devout kind?"

...Maybe they were in a closet walking on eggshells because they didn't want to be burned at the stake.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

11. Comment #51524 by poppythinks on June 23, 2007 at 9:07 am

 avatar"Hitchens has written a book that is seriously harmful, not because of his attack on religion, some of it deserved, but because he will divert people away from the real problem: which is we human beings, both religious and irreligious."

in the final paragraph, a concession, and then 'we human beings' are the problem. (speak for yourself bish)
a real cop-out here, blaming people, and i'd still like to know which bits of religion 'deserve' hitchens 'attack'????
but i'm not holding my breath, as no faithhead
is likely to come up with anything very interesting.....

Other Comments by poppythinks

12. Comment #51526 by ricey on June 23, 2007 at 9:17 am

Religion is rooted in our capacity to recognise and appreciate value; in our search for truth; in our recognition that some things are good in themselves


Slavery; homophobia; woman-hating; child abuse ...

All are intrinsically good according to the Bishop. More wooly-thinking from the theology dept.

Other Comments by ricey

13. Comment #51533 by pewkatchoo on June 23, 2007 at 9:49 am

 avatarWhy are there two versions of this thread and the 'His Word' thread? This is most confusing!

Can the mods sort this out please?

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

14. Comment #51539 by RickM on June 23, 2007 at 10:11 am

 avatarI found the comments more interesting then the article. Needless to say the article is pretty much garbage.

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15. Comment #51544 by chadvader123 on June 23, 2007 at 10:49 am

"Hitchens has written a book that is seriously harmful, not because of his attack on religion, some of it deserved, but because he will divert people away from the real problem: which is we human beings, both religious and irreligious."

Can I get an amen!

Do any of you truly believe that religion poisons everything? Do any of you truly believe that atheistic groups are immune to corruption and evil? Would war suddenly end if religion vanished? Do you believe that science can, and will someday end cruelty and suffering? Does scientific enlightenment force people to be loving? Is it a lack of scientific/evolutionary knowledge that makes men do illogical things like murder and rape? Again, is religion the cause of all our problems?

I know many religious and non-religious people. Some of them are good, loving people, and some of them are selfish and mean. Their ideology has little to do with it.

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16. Comment #51546 by robert s on June 23, 2007 at 10:59 am

Chad, if someone asserts 'A implies B', you saying 'Ah-ha, but not A does not imply not B, does it? DOES IT!' does not rebut their argument in the slightest.

Other Comments by robert s

17. Comment #51573 by Patrick McArdle on June 23, 2007 at 12:37 pm

Well, the original article was pretty much garbage, but it did provide us with a strawman-bashing entertainer:

"Do any of you truly believe that religion poisons everything?"

(The book is a polemic, written in hyperbolic style. Please understand how an author can use overstatement to emphasize his points.) We 'militant atheists' note that unsupportable beliefs cause trouble, thus poisoning a great many human interactions.

"Do any of you truly believe that atheistic groups are immune to corruption and evil?"

No human is ever perfect or infallible, even if a billion other humans claim to believe that he is. No group of humans is ever immune to flaws or failures. And I know of no atheist who has ever claimed otherwise, so what's your point?

"Would war suddenly end if religion vanished?"

No, and we don't claim that it would. Again, this is a straw man. But I have a serious question for you. I just returned from a visit to my home town, New York, where I happened by the World Trade Center site. My sister works in an office building across the street from the site; four of her co-workers died on 9/11. Would they have died, trapped and terrified atop their burning building, if religion did not exist?

"Do you believe that science can, and will someday end cruelty and suffering?"

Know anyone who died of scurvy? Was recently crippled by polio? Suffers from rickets? I don't believe that humans can ever achieve the perfection required to end all suffering (your loved ones will all eventually die), but we've done more with Pasteur's germ theory of disease than with all of the praying and libations.

"Does scientific enlightenment force people to be loving?"

I love the idea that enlightenment involves force!

"Is it a lack of scientific/evolutionary knowledge that makes men do illogical things like murder and rape?"

Logic is only as good as the basic assumptions which underlie it. If a person believes unscientific garbage about "race", then enslaving or exterminating humans deemed to be members of other "races" might become a logical outcome. This is why we scientists oppose any belief which does not rest upon verifiable evidence.

"Again, is religion the cause of all our problems? "

We have enough problems already; we do not need groundless beliefs making things worse. Do you really believe that people would fight over desert land at the east end of the Mediterranean Sea in the absence of organized religion? Do you believe they would strap bombs to themselves in this fight otherwise? Ever heard of an atheist suicide bomber?

Negotiation should always be used before resorting to war. But a Jew, by definition, will never believe that Jesus was god, and no amount of negotiation will cause a devout Muslim to accept Jesus as a savior. So long as humans think such issues have value, we might fight over them. Why should we keep such troublesome distinctions?

Other Comments by Patrick McArdle

18. Comment #51583 by 601 on June 23, 2007 at 2:08 pm

 avatar
...because religion is such a crucial marker of identity, it can be used...
To say religion is a first-order cause of unethical behavior is misleading.

Most conflicts are based on basic human needs (from food and water through to minimal political sovereignty), but for pragmatic reasons are marketed with religion.

"We should balance the distribution of wealth and power" as a battle cry will only gather a clutch of friendly pacifists.

Whereas, "The ultimate universal creator commands we fight evil (and will fast-track enthusiasts into paradise)" mobilizes a formidable force.

That said, for self preservation religious institutions will often promote nasty us/them campaigns, which I consider indefensible (and curiously almost always in conflict with their own principals).

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19. Comment #51585 by the great teapot on June 23, 2007 at 2:26 pm

Northern Ireland was a political battle between Ulster Unionists and Irish Republicans. The Terms Catholics and Protestants were just convenient identity markers. No religious leaders, say with the title Reverend, would ever seek to gain from the situation, surely.

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20. Comment #51586 by DingoDave on June 23, 2007 at 2:52 pm

 avatarBishop Harris wrote:

"If doctors make the wrong diagnosis it can be disastrous, and this is what Hitchens has done in relation to the ills of humanity. He seems to think that religion is the root of all evil. It isn't. The problem lies with us, especially when we are organised in groups with a dominant ideology, whether secular or religious. His misdiagnosis is not just a baleful intellectual error, it has very serious consequences in the modern world, where religion is now such a major player.
It reinforces fundamentalists in their sense that they are a beleaguered, righteous minority, whereas what is needed is some way of getting them into dialogue with others. More seriously, it alienates the millions of ordinary, decent, moderate religious believers who look to their religion to help them in the struggle to live a better life. Most seriously of all, it hinders the alliance that should be forming between people of all shades of belief and unbelief in the basic struggle going on in every country for human rights, peace and economic justice against fanatics of all kinds."

What an amazing mish-mash of religious doublethink and hypocrisy.

If doctors make the wrong diagnosis, of course it can be disastrous. But how would the good bishop feel if a doctor were to say to a cancer patient that her illness wasn't worth treating, because even if she could be cured of her cancer, something else would eventually kill her anyway? What would we think of a doctor who behaved in this fashion? Religious apologists such as the bishop are a lot more like this careless doctor than they choose to acknowledge.

Religious leaders (and by definition the Bishop is one of them) specialise in organising people into groups with dominant, incompatible and mutually condemnatory ideologies. That's their job.
His religion and his own holy book, condemns in the strongest possible terms, anyone who is not a member of his particular cult. How can there be a true alliance, or a real meeting of minds between people who venerate a holy book, or glorify a god who they claim intends to burn people alive for not following the right religion? Has the bishop actually read his own Bible?

Here's some news for you Bishop, in case you inadvertently overlooked it.
According to your Bible, the god you worship is not a 'moderate'!
After all, here's a guy who murdered everyone on the planet with a flood, because they got on his bad side. Here's a guy who ordered his chosen people to murder anyone who wanted to change their religion or even suggested the worship of any other god but him.
Here's a guy who ordered his chosen people to murder or enslave anyone who got in their way during the conquest of their 'promised land'.

Do these religious apologists actually believe their own bullshit? I for one, have a hard time believing that they do.

Other Comments by DingoDave

21. Comment #51591 by Nails on June 23, 2007 at 3:25 pm

 avatar
He seems to think that religion is the root of all evil. It isn't. The problem lies with us, especially when we are organised in groups with a dominant ideology, whether secular or religious

I agree.
Religion is not the root of all evil, but a major factor in most attrocities.
It is normally the part which turns a murderous act into genocide, a dispute into a conflict. The gulf between faiths is wider than the cause of any racially motivated attrocities, although many of these are religiously motivated in the first instance (KKK for example).
Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutley.
Faith can corrupt.
There is no greater justification than "god is on my side."

Other Comments by Nails

22. Comment #51592 by MarkSmith on June 23, 2007 at 3:34 pm

 avatarThere is much about this review that is just plain wrong.

Hitchens does indeed correctly blame dogmatism as the larger problem (Hitler, Stalin, North Korea, etc), and correctly I think, he blames religion as its major vehicle, worthy of attack all by itself. Hitchens and Sam Harris put it aptly - no society has ever suffered from too much reason.

Humans in groups do horrible things, true. But the root of the problem lies not with "us" in the religious sense (as sinners) - that label is intentionally vague as are most religious descriptions because they have no correct explanation of any concept (human nature, cosmology, disease, etc.) addressed in their holy books. Those specific descriptions would be discovered later by science. Instead, the problem of human and animal behavior in groups is much better explained in evolutionary terms, of which much has been written but rarely discussed publicly.

The big difference is that the latter actually addresses the problem, and does so in a rational way that leads to a practical discussion of ethics, which leads to workable solutions. The former, as prescribed by the bishop, leads people to the church to receive whatever interpretation that particular clergyperson has to offer, which is probably based on some combination of grossly insufficient ethics education, local politics, and bible-based fear, guilt and rationalization - Yum!

Take the bishop's quote: "Religion is rooted in our capacity to recognize and appreciate value; in our search for truth; in our recognition that some things are good in themselves". I thought it was a typo as I read it: surely he meant to use the word "Reason" or "Science". The root of religion is in a tragic evolutionary misfiring of our brains, much more elegantly explained as an evolutionary phenomenon.

I think Sam Harris was right about these moderate religionists: as long as they mislabel "Faith" as "higher path to truth" rather than calling it what it is: an ill-wrought combination of bad reasoning and wish-thinking, they will be enabling the real nut jobs who act as if their beliefs are not subject to reason.

That is my main problem with religion and with the bishop's review: their lack of understanding about the core issue makes their conclusions suspect. Until Religionists recognize that faith is not a method of attaining a greater understanding of truth, and until they begin to understand religion as an evolutionary phenomenon, they will simply be standing by (in the way, actually) while science reveals the wonders that it steadily does.

Other Comments by MarkSmith

23. Comment #51600 by Dr Benway on June 23, 2007 at 5:11 pm

 avatar
He seems to think that religion is the root of all evil. It isn't.
I've said it before: Sure, religion can seem like just a bit of fun and games. Until someone looses an eye.
The problem lies with us, especially when we are organised in groups with a dominant ideology, whether secular or religious.
Religion makes ordinary, natural xenophobia - which is often somewhat malleable - into something that can never change, because the divide between the saved and unsaved is eternal.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

24. Comment #51617 by lpetrich on June 23, 2007 at 7:45 pm

 avatarAnd to expand on TIKI AL's points, most people, including most educated and intellectual and artistic people, have been at least nominal believers in whatever religion was common in the society that they had lived in.

Including religions and sects that Bishop Harris considers false. I don't see him converting to Lutheranism because of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for instance. Or to medieval Catholicism because of Augustine and Aquinas. Or to Hellenic paganism because of Plato.

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25. Comment #51621 by TheCelestialTeapot on June 23, 2007 at 8:34 pm

Excuse me for saying so, but I find it troubling that all of us clear-thinking, open-minded, rationalists get swept up in the fervent and over-zealous denunciation of religion. For those of you who can see that Mr. Hitchens is merely swooping in on the tail-end of a movement of intellectuals superior to himself in order to sell a book, I commend you; and for those of you who cannot justifiably see the difference between someone such as Mr. Hitchens and say, a Dan Dennett, I am ashamed. This article is certainly not correct in all of the points that it makes, but it draws out some interesting questions. Things, that I believe, are worth considering. Certainly we are all angered when Dr. Dawkins, given his knowledge and position, is attacked by silly ad hominem and straw men fallacies, but then why is it so common on this website that the same mistakes are made? If we truly want the dialogue to progress and move forward toward the point of change, then I suggest that everyone begin thinking for themselves rather than have Dawkins, or whoever, do it for them.

Other Comments by TheCelestialTeapot

26. Comment #51648 by Big T on June 24, 2007 at 12:02 am

All organized religions cause harm. Humanity has never realized this, but we are on the verge of a breakthrough, I think (and hope). In the future, I hope, religion will still be around but will be much less influential than it is now. Let us all work for this end. Everyone free to believe whatever they choose, but no official state religions, no compulsion to pretend to worship anyone or anything. In ALL countries, all the time.

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27. Comment #51653 by Beachbum on June 24, 2007 at 12:39 am

 avatarMr. Hitchens is the cleanup batter in this, the latest inning of faithhead baseball. Of course he is a hard hitter, and in my opinion, a very necessary component of this struggle toward a rational atmosphere of unencumbered thought.

Can someone (anyone) explain to me where religious apologist find their definition of the word truth. Not one of the definitions I have found includes the words, "excepted doctrine" or "asserted dogma", not to mention flat out lies just because they are written in some old holy book.

What is that old saying? "What a tangled web we weave, when first we conspire to deceive."

I hold suspect, any conclusion, that is formulated from an argument that uses truth and religion in the same context.

I think the Bishop misses the days when men of power had to kneel and kiss his ring.

Other Comments by Beachbum

28. Comment #51739 by Duff on June 24, 2007 at 1:20 pm

Lets see if I have this right, Bishop. Some atheists are bad too, so, its not fair to criticize religion. I don't think you get it. Is it
because you don't want to get it?

Other Comments by Duff

29. Comment #51799 by Patrick McArdle on June 25, 2007 at 3:14 am

"Excuse me for saying so, but I find it troubling that all of us clear-thinking, open-minded, rationalists get swept up in the fervent and over-zealous denunciation of religion."

This is a forum where we members of an historically despised and persecuted minority can air our views without fear of retaliation. We might expect a small degree of over-reaction. Be that as it may, we are discussing a phenomenon which has caused enormous human suffering -- not to mention outright waste of resources, even when peaceful. Dealing with apologists can set our teeth on edge, especially when they use such risible arguments:

"But how is it that the majority of the world's great philosophers, composers, scholars, artists and poets have been believers, often of a very devout kind?"

They were raised in societies which required public displays of religious observance, and drilled this into their heads from birth. We could hardly expect them to have behaved otherwise. Considering the gruesome fates of 'infidels' in most of human history, the non-believers amongst the great thinkers saw the wisdom in preserving appearances.

If this is the best the apologists can do, they've nicely proved our critiques for us. Even the un-civil ones.

Other Comments by Patrick McArdle

30. Comment #51801 by Philip1978 on June 25, 2007 at 3:20 am

 avatarBut how is it that the majority of the world's great philosophers, composers, scholars, artists and poets have been believers, often of a very devout kind?

Right, admit it Professor Dawkins, the devil secretly helped you write your book didn't he! Then you asked him to help Mr Hitchens!

Other Comments by Philip1978

31. Comment #51817 by wice on June 25, 2007 at 5:58 am

does the vaccinations against illnesses prevent you to be run over by a bus? no? well, then it's useless, and even the suggestion is dangerous and harmful! btw, how is that all great thinkers and artists in the human history have experienced some kind of illness? these goddamn doctors try to destroy art and human knowledge.

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32. Comment #51819 by Dr Benway on June 25, 2007 at 6:10 am

 avatarcelestialteapot:
Excuse me for saying so, but I find it troubling that all of us clear-thinking, open-minded, rationalists get swept up in the fervent and over-zealous denunciation of religion.
Many segregationists are nice people who mean no harm to the negros. It's a small minority who are out burning crosses. Why do people here paint all segregationists with the same brush?

Other Comments by Dr Benway

33. Comment #51971 by coastalguy on June 25, 2007 at 6:23 pm

Along the lines of the bishop sifting the bible for pillar items to justify his occupation, I do wonder myself at the origins of the wisdom found in some of the texts. What were the source writings/learnings of these biblical authors who did occasion to write inspiring text. I am not a believer by the way but I would like to be referred to perhaps some reading material of the origins of their moral writings that ended up in the bible.

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34. Comment #51996 by Bayle on June 25, 2007 at 9:10 pm

"But how is it that the majority of the world's great philosophers..."




Hahahahaa. Ahahahahaha! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Other Comments by Bayle

35. Comment #52071 by bamboospitfire on June 26, 2007 at 5:00 am

 avatarCrikey. I am embarrassed that my alma mater made this man an honourary professor if that is the best he can come up with.

I found his comment that "even if religion did disappear, which of course it won't, we human beings would still be here" particularly backwards. Surely the point is that if religion does not disappear, we human beings may well do so instead.

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36. Comment #52128 by TheCelestialTeapot on June 26, 2007 at 8:41 am

To Patrick McArdle

I am certainly in agreement with you about the importance of the website and the function it provides. I guess my point is that it is not necessary to attack religion with logical fallacies (committing the same mistakes as the faithful), when it can be defeated through science and logic. While I would concede that Mr. Hitchens has a silver-tongued sharpness about himself, I do not hold him in the same brackets of scholarship as I do Dawkins, Dennett, and Mr. Harris. One of the dominant topics of his book is sexual repression in religion. All who have been religious and those who have not understand this, and the topic itself is unoriginal and uninventive. It would be inconsistent if we were to be critical of religion and not critical of our own position, as well as those authors and speakers for atheism.

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37. Comment #52677 by Friggertool on June 27, 2007 at 5:37 pm

 avatarCopernicus, Galileo, Newton, Darwin & Einstein. Which one needed religion to do his work? Which needed to struggle against religion to do his work? Which would we be better off without if religion had had its way?

There could not possibly have been any enlightenment if courageous people had not used the power of lucid thought against religion. In the past the 'light' was as that of a candle.

There is a real danger that the candle may now be snuffed out unless we are very careful. We are at a crossroads; if we go the wrong way there will be dark times ahead.

But religion can be fought on every front and when it is finally defeated, the light will burn for all time.

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38. Comment #52762 by robhowe on June 28, 2007 at 3:01 am

Inadvertently or wilfully, Baron Harries makes the mistake of accusing Hitchens of attacking and alienating people rather than people's misguided beliefs. Belief is not an integral part of its holder. Beliefs can change. To assume that they cannot, and that we must continue to pander to those who promulgate baseless nonsense or the world will become more dangerous, is an act of craven intellectual cowardice.

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39. Comment #54065 by Tintern on July 5, 2007 at 6:58 am

"this capacity to recognise, appreciate and respond to what is of worth that religion has its origin. If "submission and surrender" have a place, it is only in the final insight"

Boy, is this the wrong way around. In religions, submission and surrender come first because you're not allowed form your own opinion on your world. Imagine if people went around thinking for themselves, explaining with science and expressing with art. Chaos, I tells ya, chaos!
Though what can you expect from something as stupid as a Professor of Theology?

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40. Comment #55373 by Graham on July 10, 2007 at 9:03 pm

 avatar"Hitchens has written a book that is seriously harmful, not because of his attack on religion, some of it deserved, but because he will divert people away from the real problem: which is we human beings, both religious and irreligious."

The good Bishop may have a point here. However, he has totally ignored the argument that teaching respect for faith for its own sake and disrespect for evidence and reason inevitably lead to the kind of divisive and harmful dogmatism to which human beings are susceptible.

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