1. Comment #51864 by Richard Dawkins on June 25, 2007 at 12:22 pm

This is so appalling (as well as being musically inept) that most people will want to switch it off after the first minute. However, it is worth persisting to the performance by the little girl at the end. More than for anything else I have written, I have been attacked for using the phrase 'child abuse' about certain aspects of religious indoctrination. But I defy any civilized person to watch this video and then deny that 'child abuser' is a completely appropriate description of the little girl's parents, or whoever persuaded her to sing this disgusting song and filmed her doing it. This video may haunt her for the rest of her life, even if she eventually manages to shake off the influence of her evil upbringing.
Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

2. Comment #51868 by wolfpurplemoon on June 25, 2007 at 12:36 pm

I looked through their many godhates... websites and discovered this Open Letter to the UK (direct link to PDF file) looks like there will be a godhatesbritain very soon. They've even rewritten God Save the Queen to God Hate the Queen, so they will rewrite anything!

Other Comments by wolfpurplemoon

3. Comment #51869 by Angieruns on June 25, 2007 at 12:37 pm

Richard is absolutely correct in his characterization of child abuse in this video. I thought that Christians served a loving god. Wow...guess not.

It is difficult to imagine that the participants in this video took themselves seriously as they recorded this horrific and musically abrasive song...

...and they call non-believers arrogant. Stunning!

Other Comments by Angieruns

4. Comment #51870 by axisaudio on June 25, 2007 at 12:38 pm

Dr. Dawkins,

You are completely right. It was so awful, so bigoted, and so harrowing that if I did not laugh my ass off in my office chair, I would have cried, wailed and become extremely frustrated. It will be extremely hard for anyone to argue with your claim that religion is child abuse after that horrid display of bullying [committed by the parents when they not only took advantage of their child's credulity, but forced her to sing such nonsense in front of a camera]. Wow, the extent of human stupidity and ignorance is limitless.

Other Comments by axisaudio

5. Comment #51871 by Fedler on June 25, 2007 at 12:47 pm

In this case, saying religion is not child abuse is like the rapist telling their victim "This only feels like sexual intercourse, but it's not..."

Other Comments by Fedler

6. Comment #51873 by captain underpants on June 25, 2007 at 12:51 pm

Who the hell funds these people?

Other Comments by captain underpants

7. Comment #51874 by Jackson Ayres on June 25, 2007 at 12:52 pm

Dr Dawkins & others,

I've been visiting this site for some time, but after seeing this post felt compelled to finally register. I grew up in Topeka, KS (where Westboro Baptist Church is located), although I haven't lived there since I left for college in 2000. Kansas does not have the best reputation for free-thinking, although I will say it is not as bad as many of those who've never been there may think. Still, please be aware that this group IN NO WAY accurately represents Topeka or the rest of Kansas. Other Kansas Christians (for all their MANY faults) in no way support these lunatics. In fact, their disgusting tactics and rhetoric have actually made many religious people in Kansas more compassionate and sympathetic toward homosexuals than they otherwise would be. Thanks for listening & I look forward to participating in the ongoing conversation here.
~Jack

Other Comments by Jackson Ayres

8. Comment #51875 by Lutrasimilis on June 25, 2007 at 1:01 pm

I honestly wish I could say this is unbelievable, but some people really have turned the fundamentalist temper tantrum into an art form. A horrible, horrible art form.

Bleah. At least they don't have bombs.

Other Comments by Lutrasimilis

9. Comment #51876 by Fedler on June 25, 2007 at 1:01 pm

Hi Jack. Welcome aboard.

To your knowledge, has Westboro Baptist Church ever been reprimanded by other Baptist congregations for being so over the top? I would be interested to know if other Baptists have spoken out against their alleged lunacy. I foresee a Google search in my future....

EDIT: "While its members identify themselves as Baptists, the church is an independent church not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations. The church describes itself as following Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles. Its first public service was held on the afternoon of Sunday, 27th November 1955." From Wikipedia.

OK, answered my own question.

Other Comments by Fedler

10. Comment #51878 by Dr Benway on June 25, 2007 at 1:07 pm

God is a sock puppet. A sock puppet with lawyers what dislike copyright infringement...

Other Comments by Dr Benway

11. Comment #51881 by _J_ on June 25, 2007 at 1:15 pm

Wow...that's just......wow. It takes a special kind of unselfconsciousness to fail quite this spectacularly to judge the way your performance is going to be received by...well, just about anyone.

And the girl at the end! I suppose that was meant to be sweet? Urgh. If anyone who sees this recognises her, could they please make a call to social services?

Sort've ironic, though. Could these maniacs find a better way of demonstrating that theirs is a 100% No Critical Thinking Required Doctrine of Ignorance? Maybe they could teach a dog to sing it...

Other Comments by _J_

12. Comment #51882 by Jackson Ayres on June 25, 2007 at 1:15 pm

Fedler,

Yeah, Wikipedia got it right.

I grew up attending a Methodist church in Topeka (though pretty much everyone in my nuclear family is now a declared atheist, or so "moderate"/agnostic that they're practically an atheist). Anyway, our pastor would frequently criticize WBC in his sermons. I can't say about Baptist congregations, but, as you discovered, they aren't an "official" congregation. The patriarch, Fred Phelps, is a de-barred lawyer. He created the church to gain tax-exempt status, and I believe all of the members of the church are part of the Phelps family.

Other Comments by Jackson Ayres

13. Comment #51883 by jonecc on June 25, 2007 at 1:16 pm

I put something about this on my own blog, but this is the last bit of it.

"It's all quite jolly, and they look like they're having as much fun as they're giving us, but then just before the end the mocking laughter turns to horror and a boiling rage. For the last thirty seconds, the final chorus is sung solo - by a very young girl. She looks about two, and lisps through the words quite heartbreakingly. Right at the end, she smiles sweetly into the camera, apparently unaware of the content of the message she has just delivered. I suppose for now this is a blessing, but you just have to look at the rest of them to know how she's going to turn out.

I know this is dangerous territory I'm going into, and I may regret this, but I dare you to watch this video and then tell me no part of you wants that little girl taken into care. Hell, I'd look after her. I'd teach her nice songs, songs with some humanity. "Please allow me to introduce myself", she could lisp into the webcam, "I'm a girl of wealth, and taste". Or maybe she might enjoy encouraging people to sing if they're glad to be gay. We'd have to put it online, of course, otherwise how could her parents know of their daughter's progress?

They'd be heartbroken, of course, and with any luck they might make some public showing of their distress. Then we could all go and shove our placards into their weeping faces.

Not that we'd ever do any of those things. We wouldn't lower ourselves."

Other Comments by jonecc

14. Comment #51885 by Andrew on June 25, 2007 at 1:23 pm

I learned about the WBC through the Louis Theroux documentary that aired a couple of months ago. Their website includes a long question and answer section, and so I decided to send them an email.

I didn't bother arguing about the existence of god, as these people are clearly immune to reason.

Instead, I pointed out the obvious fact that the sole reason why their entire family believes what they believe is that every last one of them has been brainwashed from birth, and that if it had not been for the most random accident of being born into that particular family, every member of the family would be - according to their own twisted belief system - a 'fag enabler' facing eternal damnation.

Or to put it another way, if Fred Phelps happened to have been born in, say, Iran instead of America, then the entire family would be preaching their own extreme version of Islam.

I would have loved to hear a response to that, but for some reason my email never made it onto their website. I wonder why that could have been???

Other Comments by Andrew

15. Comment #51886 by Diplo on June 25, 2007 at 1:27 pm

Well, recently the Christian nutters had been loosing out quite badly to the Muslim nutters, so it's good to see a return to form for "our boys". The satanic child at the end was a nice touch.

Other Comments by Diplo

16. Comment #51887 by Corylus on June 25, 2007 at 1:29 pm

Well the original was naff, but this... I have no words.

This is the sort of thing that makes me wish I didn't speak English. I wish I could hear this and not understand what they are saying (I won't call it singing).

I felt the same after learning some German and then listening to a recording of Hitler.

Other Comments by Corylus

17. Comment #51894 by The Wee Flea on June 25, 2007 at 1:46 pm

Dear Dr Dawkins,

You are absolutely correct. This video is disgusting beyond belief. However I am almost as revolted by your behaviour in using the antics of these sick people as a justification for your atheistic arguments. It is the ultimate in ad hominem argument. Let me ask you some serious questions -

1) Why did you post this video on your website?
2) Out of the two billion people who profess to be Christian in the world, how many do you think would not be sickened by this video?
3) Do you think that these people behave in this way because they were basically good people who have somehow been perverted by Christianity? If so could you explain why 99.9999999% of those who have been taught Christianity do not behave in this way?
4) Of course the above video is child abuse. But you wrongly attribute that abuse to religion - not realising that religion can be used as a cloak for many things. I could personally take you to people and homes where as bad, if not worse abuse goes on. Some of that abuse is done by people who would claim to be religious, some by those who would claim to be atheist. I would not blame either 'philosophy' for the abuse.

5) Do you not realise that Fred Phelps (the 'patriarch' and abuser in chief of the Westboro Baptist Church)lives for and thrives on publicity? By feeding his mania for self-publicity you are in fact contributing to and aiding the abuse. Does that not bother you? Or is your hatred of Christianity so strong, and your desire to promote your own views so overwhelming that you do not care who you hurt?

Given that you read this website you must know how inflammatory your posting of this video and your own comments are. Even the few posted so far indicate how dangerous and stupid this is.

2. wolfpurplemoon wants to warn us that this is coming to Britain.


3. Angieruns thinks that this is evidence that Christians do not serve a loving god.

4. axisaudio thinks it proves that 'religion is child abuse' (you have thereby suceeded in classing me and the others I was with tonight helping run a club in a run down inner city area,as child abusers, equivalent to the Phelps).

5. Even Fedler, who is normally one of the saner and more reasonable people on this site joins in. And yes - Westboro Baptist Church has been reprimanded by many other Baptist congregations (but I guess that would not be posted here?).

6. captain underpants seems to see a conspiracy of 'funding'. They are funded by themselves and live off the publicity that people like you give them.

7. Jackson Ayres thankfully brings some perspective and sanity to the whole witchhunt.

8. Lutrasimilis seems to think this is typical 'fundamentalism'.

And so it will go on. I find your use of this video cheap, abusive and degrading. It is on a par with the Nazis who used stories about 'bad Jews' in order to stir up a general hatred for all Jews. Your equation of the Phelps family with Christianity, your oft stated linkage of 'moderate' Christianity with 'extremists', and the nature of this website, means that you have done a dangerous and frankly quite disgusting thing in posting this video and your comments here.

I know I will get the usual barrage of abuse (which will only prove my point)and will probably be banned for daring to challenge you, but for once, please admit that you are wrong to do this, and please tell your followers not to equate Christianity (and therefore all Christians) with this perverse and sickening child abuse.

By the way, even those most ignorant of theology should know that the Bible teaches that God 'so loved the world'. The Phelps are heretics in the worst sense of the world. But then I suspect you know that.

I am really angry and disgusted with you for doing this. It is the worst thing you have done on this website yet and deserves an immediate apology and retraction.

David Robertson

Other Comments by The Wee Flea

18. Comment #51895 by Brian on June 25, 2007 at 1:48 pm

Speaking as a parent, that's one of the saddest thing's I've seen. That poor girl...

Other Comments by Brian

19. Comment #51897 by PaulEmecz on June 25, 2007 at 2:00 pm

Clearly this is awful in every sense of the word. What does it really tell us, however, about religious belief? There is clearly a lot to be learnt about indoctrination, and about how cults work, but...

Quite apart from giving attention to people who have already had far too much air time, I worry about the number of times I have seen atheists refer to the worst sorts of fundamentalist religious behaviour as though it were a necessary part of having a faith. If I were looking to question the atheistic standpoint, I would try to find the most competent exponent of 'atheism' out there, and have a reasoned debate. Too many people seem to watch this sort of thing and say "See, what did I tell you about religion?"

Put a different way, if I managed to find a cult group of mad scientists filled with hatred for a world that had turned its back on the scientific method, a group that even had 3 year old girls singing their songs of vilification, would that really tell us anything about science or scientists? Would Dr Dawkins find himself surrounded by an increasingly large space as people edged away from him because he was 'one of them scientist types'?

This really tells us nothing about people of faith at all.

Other Comments by PaulEmecz

20. Comment #51898 by Dr Benway on June 25, 2007 at 2:04 pm

If you, like me, felt a need to cleanse your 80s palate after the above, something like this might help:
Loving the Alien

I am really angry and disgusted with you for doing this. It is the worst thing you have done on this website yet and deserves an immediate apology and retraction.

The faith door lets in puppies, butterflies, warm summer days, etc., etc. But it also lets in Fred Phelps, suicide bombers, and clitorectomies.

Seeing as we can have the puppies, butterflies, and hugs without the faith, why not shut that dangerous door?

Other Comments by Dr Benway

21. Comment #51899 by BicycleRepairMan on June 25, 2007 at 2:07 pm

I am really angry and disgusted with you for doing this. It is the worst thing you have done on this website yet and deserves an immediate apology and retraction.

Well, obviously, as everyone knows WBC goes against most, if not all other Christians currently on the planet, but its still religion. its still people reading the bible and interpreting the wrong way, its still "faith", and nowhere was it implied that this was some kind of "christianity exposed" article, its another sad example of what irrational faith is capable of doing to the human brain.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

22. Comment #51900 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 2:07 pm

David, stop being a prick. Do you think this should not be exposed?
This is religion and it is bad. Do you disagree? You obviously dont like people criticising religion and use words like which hunt. You seem to think you alone have a true understanding of your religion. Try reading some of the ot laws again. The bible tells us that your god is not loving - even jesus invents hell - oh and sheol is not hell. You are morally corrupt, and I left a little message on that other thread showing you cant even agree with yourself http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,1321,His-word-Attacking-religion-can-seem-like-breaking-a-butterfly-on-a-wheel,David-Baddiel,page2#51867

Other Comments by BillySands

23. Comment #51901 by eirik on June 25, 2007 at 2:10 pm

To some extent, I have to say that I agree with David Robertson. To post this video and use it as proof that religious teaching is child abuse is pretty cheap. When reading TGD about religious labelling and child abuse, I didn't really think this video would be representative of and a statement in favor of that point. The people in this video are crazy and would be just as crazy sans any religious influence.

Having said that, the things these lunatics stand for, e.g. hatred of gays (and the world in general it seems), can easily be justified by referring to passages of the Bible, and the mere posting of the video here is therefore I think completely defendable. It's Dr. Dawkins's comment about it that I cannot wholly adhere to.

Other Comments by eirik

24. Comment #51902 by steve99 on June 25, 2007 at 2:13 pm

To post this video and use it as proof that religious teaching is child abuse is pretty cheap.

That is not what Dr Dawkins posted. He said
"I have been attacked for using the phrase 'child abuse' about certain aspects of religious indoctrination."

Which is certainly not the same thing as saying "religious teaching is child abuse".

Other Comments by steve99

25. Comment #51903 by captain underpants on June 25, 2007 at 2:20 pm

Reverend Wee Flea wrote:

"6. captain underpants seems to see a conspiracy of 'funding'. They are funded by themselves and live off the publicity that people like you give them."

I merely wondered who pays for the website, video cameras, recording equipment etc etc. I'm somewhat puzzled as to how, on the basis of a simple question, you could impute that I "see conspiracies".


Since you do not and cannot know the slightest thing about me, what precisely do you mean by "people like me"? Please explain how we" (whoever "we" might be) give the lunatics publicity.

Other Comments by captain underpants

26. Comment #51904 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 2:20 pm

Fred Phelps is often dismissed as some sort of extremist who represents a loony fringe. He isnt - he is merely the end point of a religious continuum that has John Shelby Spong and his ultra-liberal quasi-agnosticism at one end and every variety of "moderate" and "conservative" faith in between.

Phelps knows his bible well and that is exactly where the problem lies. Every one of his hateful assertions is backed up from "scripture" Check out his home page where he gives proof after proof for his anti gay ideas.

He refers to Jonathan Edwards famous sermon "Sinners in the hands of and Angry God". Edwards was one of the most influential early American preachers, Calvinist, Puritan and the leader of the "Great Awakening". Edwards is highly thought of in evangie and conservative circles. Even today. One of the Puritan heros of the past.

"Sinners in the hands of an Angry God" is absolutely chock full of Phelps-isms - and all quoted from Scripture!

The problem isnt Phelps - its the disgusting holy book of hate that he reads and quotes from. He is actually being quite honest. The hypocrites are those conservative Christians who conveniently ignore the "difficult" bits and try to present a lovey-dovey God.

Hate is actually a biblical value. Try Romans 9:13 - "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" Those who are "saved" are loved, the rest, ie most of mankind, well, hated.

Prof Dawkins is right in his statement about "God" : 'the most unpleasant character in all fiction ... a misogynist, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully'

Succinctly put!

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

27. Comment #51905 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 2:21 pm

The people in this video are crazy and would be just as crazy sans any religious influence.

I don't know about that, that little girl has had that hatred forced upon her. It will poison her mind. That's why it is abuse, and when the likes of Robertson take offense at exposing this, we should post more. There are members of his church who have been brought up fearing hell - it impacts negatively on their lives and ability to form functional relationships. Robertsons response: it's lies that doesnt go on in his church - even though I know one it has happened to - says it all really

Other Comments by BillySands

28. Comment #51906 by Dr Benway on June 25, 2007 at 2:22 pm

I think the onus is on the believers who object to this sort of thing to speak up. I want to hear them say, "FAITH, OR BELIEF WITHOUT EVIDENCE, IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR HURTING PEOPLE."

Other Comments by Dr Benway

29. Comment #51907 by The Wee Flea on June 25, 2007 at 2:27 pm

Steve99 - You don't get it do you. RD posted this and his comment is clearly about this. As far as I can see RD believes that teaching children something that is false etc IS child abuse.

Billy - No it is not religion. No it does not need any further exposure. It has already been used many times - including in TGD. And please - do not bother coming on to this thread about abuse and then be abusive in the juvenile and immature way that seems to be your forte. For once take a look beyond yourself.

Bicyclerepairman - No - it is not faith. And it is not an example of what religion does to the brain (this is the kind of nonsense that RD posting this here reinforces).

Dr Benway - obviously logic is not your strong point. Do you really think that shutting the 'faith door' will prevent child abuse? If shutting the faith door does not prevent 'puppies and hugs', why will it prevent child abuse?

Paul (19) - Thank you for your sane, intelligent and wise comments. Hopefully people will listen to you.

Other Comments by The Wee Flea

30. Comment #51908 by Quetzalcoatl on June 25, 2007 at 2:27 pm

Wee Flea- you will not be banned for making a dissenting point. This is not the Answers in Genesis website. Nor is it Richard's, strictly, He just posts here occasionally. He may be first to comment, but that does not mean he personally posted the video.

Your comparison with the Nazis is fallacious, and only serves to illustrate the low opinion you must have for atheism. The "aim" of atheists (in as far as we can be said to have one) is NOT the EXTERMINATION of all religious believers, and I challenge you to show me any atheist who has said that it should be.

Oh, and it would be SO nice if you could eventually answer the simple questions I asked you on another thread, many moons ago. Do you think being gay is wrong/immoral? If so, why?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

31. Comment #51909 by Fedler on June 25, 2007 at 2:28 pm

Dr. Benway, I agree.

Keeping in mind that WBP is not affiliated with any Baptist church, I still would like to see more religions doing more to "police their own", so to speak. Yes, we can all agree there are fringe elements in any group setting, but it's rare when you hear of a religion pulling back the reins on one of their own. That's just my perception.

Other Comments by Fedler

32. Comment #51910 by CruciFiction on June 25, 2007 at 2:29 pm

I sense this will become the feel-good tune of the summer!

Other Comments by CruciFiction

33. Comment #51911 by pewkatchoo on June 25, 2007 at 2:30 pm

Fuck off wee flea and take your shite opinions with you. You are a pathetic piece of trash.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

34. Comment #51912 by The Wee Flea on June 25, 2007 at 2:33 pm

I'm sorry but having just posted I have read some of the new posts.

25. Websites? Cameras? They come cheap. You help pay for them by giving them the publicity they desire.

Scottishgeologist's comments just prove my point. There are people on this site who are ignorant enough to take the point of view that this is typical and an end product of all religion and all those who believe the Bible. I despair at such ignorance, prejudice and hatred.

Billy - in his usual cheap and nasty way now tries to equate this kind of abuse with my church. Again stomach churning ignorance and hatred. This is the kind of abuse and sick mind that you are feeding, Dr Dawkins.

Dr Benway - No Faith (or lack of it) is a justification for hurting people. And no hatred of religion is a justification for posting comments, videos etc which hurt, defame and insult people. Agreed?
And some more....

30. Its happened before.

33. Yet another reasoned and tolerant approach from the 'rational' brigade.




Other Comments by The Wee Flea

35. Comment #51913 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 2:34 pm

Dr Benway, the believers who claim to object to this sort of thing actually believe a lot of it. The churches are OBSESSED with homosexuality. I have just finished reading a cpy of the Church of Scotland Magazine "Life and Work" - hardly howling fundie material these days, yet it is full of letters, articles and all sorts of comment about the subject. The Church of England ties itslef in knots over it and is on the verge of schism.

The fact that there is so much angst within the churches is because of the very same scriptures and doctrines that WBC and Fred Phelps draw from.

A gay man in a conservative evangelical church must be a very lonely and confused person at times. I know of one. He IS.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

36. Comment #51914 by eirik on June 25, 2007 at 2:36 pm

steve99,

Point taken. However, Dr. Dawkins has on several occasions gone far in implying that all religious teaching is, to a greater or lesser extent, child abuse in that it teaches children that irrational belief is a virtue. As others here have remarked, the vast, vast majority of people, religious or not, would agree that WBC is an appalling organization and that its indoctrination of children is disgusting. Dr. Dawkins has often used Steven Weinberg's famous quote about how it takes religion for good people to do evil; these loonies are evil people doing evil, and I think their religiosity is somewhat beside the point.

Other Comments by eirik

37. Comment #51915 by Quetzalcoatl on June 25, 2007 at 2:38 pm

30. Its happened before

Sorry, what has? I don't understand what part of my comment you were referring to.

And feel free to answer my final questions. I can be annoyingly persistent.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

38. Comment #51916 by steve99 on June 25, 2007 at 2:39 pm

However, Dr. Dawkins has on several occasions gone far in implying that all religious teaching is, to a greater or lesser extent, child abuse in that it teaches children that irrational belief is a virtue.

I think you will find that Dawkins is very careful in his choice of words, and has implied no such thing.

Other Comments by steve99

39. Comment #51917 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 2:40 pm

No it is not religion. No it does not need any further exposure. It has already been used many times - including in TGD.

I disagree. It's been mentioned once, so lets sweep it under the carpet and and carry on with our little delusion. Is that it? You would deny others the chance to know this goes on then? How religous of you.
It most certainly is religion, so dont pretend it is not. Redefining religion does not work. Feel free to explain why these people are not religious.

And please - do not bother coming on to this thread about abuse and then be abusive in the juvenile and immature way that seems to be your forte

Actually David that is your forte, how many times have you been banned? You also lie, contradict yourself, abuse those who disagree with you, run from debate when you are losing. You are an innane bigot who cannot look beyond his own little meme and cant tolerate people who differ.
So, you never answered my question - oh tolerant one. Would you allow a homosexual to be a minister in your church?

Other Comments by BillySands

40. Comment #51918 by steve99 on June 25, 2007 at 2:41 pm

33. Yet another reasoned and tolerant approach from the 'rational' brigade.

As a gay man, who would, if your Church had it's way, have considerably reduced rights, and would have my currently happy and loving and full relationship labeled as wicked and immoral, I find that you have some nerve claiming that others have a lack of reason and tolerance.

Other Comments by steve99

41. Comment #51919 by The Wee Flea on June 25, 2007 at 2:44 pm

Q - 30. Sorry I forgot to say that the comment about the Nazis is not fallacious. The point is that the Nazis took some stories about the Jews (some of them may have been true), publicised them and then either implied or stated that the behaviour was as a result of their Jewishness. RD has posted this video - cited is as an example of religious child abuse - in the midst of his campaign against religion in general and Christianity in particular. It is exactly the same tactic and unless you are careful will lead to the same results. Even on this website you get people like pewkatchoo (comment 33). In my experience people who tell you to 'fuck off and take your shite opinions with you' will quite happily turn their verbal violence into phyisical.

And Scottishgeologist why, oh why do you manage to bring up yet again your opinions about sexuality and then claim that there is a link between them and the trash of this video? Can you not see how cheap a shot it is? And how ignorant?

37. Quetzalcoatl

"Sorry, what has?" Being banned.

I do not understand your obcession with homosexuality - why do you bring it in here (you are as bad as the Phelps who also use it as a shibboleth)? Why do you bring it into every thread? Surely you are not saying that those who do not agree with you on this issue are equivalent to the Phelps? And Billy - I will give you one final answer to your questions (and then I'm afraid I will have to ignore you - your abusive attitude and your inability to listen means that that any answer I give will only further feed it - and that is not edifying for anyone). Would I allow a homosexual to be a minister in my church? Yes.

By the way the Phelps have not been mentioned once - they are regularly trotted out. Apart from TGD we have had at least two documentaries on British TV in the past couple of months.

"Actually David that is your forte, how many times have you been banned?" Four...


I'm off to bed. I can not describe how disgusted and outraged I am at the perversity of not only the Phelps, but those who seek to use them for their own ideological ends. It makes me feel sick (literally).

Other Comments by The Wee Flea

42. Comment #51920 by 1town on June 25, 2007 at 2:44 pm

Wait just a goddamn minute? Do you people mean to tell me that video wasn't a parody?

Other Comments by 1town

43. Comment #51921 by BillySands on June 25, 2007 at 2:47 pm

Billy - in his usual cheap and nasty way now tries to equate this kind of abuse with my church. Again stomach churning ignorance and hatred. This is the kind of abuse and sick mind that you are feeding, Dr Dawkins.

What is sick about not wanting people metally scarred by fearing they will go to hell for the slightest misdemeaner - including wanting a tatoo. If you think this is acceptable, it is you who is sick. This is a member of your church, and you had the balls to lie on a previous thread that this does not go on. I'm also considerably more gay friendly than you. You can stick your barbaric immoral standards up your arse. I and many others on this site are glad we dont have your sick moral codes.
I also dont subscribe to the view that all religious people are mental fuck ups. There are plenty of good one - not you however, so stop telling lies about what I believe. And this has nothing to do with ideology here. For me it is about pointing out something that is wrong - but you just have to use it to fuel your own little bigotries about atheists

Other Comments by BillySands

44. Comment #51922 by scottishgeologist on June 25, 2007 at 2:49 pm

David, just noticed your comment re my point:

Scottishgeologist's comments just prove my point. There are people on this site who are ignorant enough to take the point of view that this is typical and an end product of all religion and all those who believe the Bible. I despair at such ignorance, prejudice and hatred.



I did NOT say that Phelpsism is an end product. which implies an inexorable process leading to it.

Neither did I say this was typical

I said it was an END POINT in a continuum - there is a continuous spectrum from liberalism through to ultra-conservatism, like Phelps. I dont for one minute believe that a church would drift to this position - well I hope not.

It is not typical, obviously. But the anti-gay sentiments are widespread in the churches.

There are conservatives I know who are definitely not Phelps supporters, but their opinions on homosexuality are not TOTALLY removed from it.

As for "I despair at such ignorance, prejudice and hatred."

Oh come on, stop being so precious. (Picks up rattle and places gently back in pram.....)

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45. Comment #51926 by Reason1 on June 25, 2007 at 2:55 pm

Absolutely disgusting in every possible way. We actually had those Baptist protesters at a soldier's funeral in Wisconsin last year. Thank goodness that our Governor, Jim Doyle, passed a state law prohibiting any protest at a funeral of a fallen soldier. This is a horrid display of hate and ignorance that is on the same par as the Nazi occupation of Europe during the 30's and 40's.

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46. Comment #51928 by PeterK on June 25, 2007 at 2:56 pm

WeeFlea--Of course this is not how most christians/religious people act ( I'd say however, considerably more than the .0000001% you assert ). But this group, which were christians DID act in this manner--and this video clearly shows what can be the result when one's thinking is directed by religious faith and dogma--rather than basing an opinion on independent rational thought. To deny that religion has poisoned this particular group would certainly be folly.

It strikes a chilling resemblance of how the KKK supports their hateful idealogy via biblical scripture, and how they cheer their young when they attack and curse cardbord cutouts of African-American children their own age.

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47. Comment #51929 by Lutrasimilis on June 25, 2007 at 2:56 pm

Comment #51920 by 1town on June 25, 2007 at 2:44 pm

"Wait just a goddamn minute? Do you people mean to tell me that video wasn't a parody?"

Oh, just look at the production values! As far as wind-up artistry goes, they've packed enough antagonism into this thing I'm surprised it hasn't collapsed into a black hole.

Oh no wait...it has.

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48. Comment #51930 by Diplo on June 25, 2007 at 2:59 pm

For more examples of religious child-abuse you can watch:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj5BL-tVIpM

"How many Jews did mama kill...?"

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49. Comment #51931 by Corylus on June 25, 2007 at 3:00 pm

Wee Flea said

If so could you explain why 99.9999999% of those who have been taught Christianity do not behave in this way?

I never thought I would say this, but I really wish you were right Wee Flea. So, only 1 in 1,000,000,000 think homosexuals will burn in hell. Even allowing for your normal hyperbole, I think you may have your figures wrong.

If this is the case then why is it that the Church of England is presently facing a schism in relation to gay marriage? Show this video in Africa: particularly in places like Nigeria. See what response it elicits.

Excuse my cynicism, but I reckon the reason that even then looniest fundamentalists disown the WBC (what was it Falwell said? "No-one calls them kin") is not due to their stance on homosexuality, but is instead due to the fact that they apportion blame outside of the gay community as well as within it. "Are the WBC saying we are as bad as the fags? Darn it. That ain't right!!"

In any event, the point of showing this video has bugger all to do with homosexuality. (Umm… maybe that's a sentence I should rephrase!)

Instead it has everything to do with what people feel they have the right to make their children do, and say, and believe. Furthermore this has everything to do with what theoretical justifications we respect for these "rights" and those we don't.

Yes. This is an extreme example, and yes I am very glad that you are getting cross watching it. Good for you.

So why show it? Show it because it represents the logical conclusion to an argument. Show it because in order to condemn it (as you do and should) you have to talk about humanity, love and empathy rather than scripture. Show it because when you think you have seen the nadir that humanity can attain, someone comes along and shows you a lower point.

I don't blame God for this video (whether God is loving or not is a meaningless question) I blame people. People who; in what is the epitome of bad faith; seek to blame God for the hatred that is theirs and theirs alone.

You don't like it . Good, but at least have the courage to admit to yourself that the reason you don't like it has everything to do with humanity and nothing to do with God.

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50. Comment #51932 by Jackson Ayres on June 25, 2007 at 3:05 pm

If I remember his phrasing correctly, Christopher Hitchens described the late Jerry Falwell as a "conscious charlatan," who didn't truly believe what he preached. Many believe the same description could be given to Phelps--his agenda is mysterious, but it seems more political than religious. In fact, there are persistent rumors (but nothing more than rumors) that he is a closet homosexual, and his entire campaign is nothing more than an example of "protesting too much."

I posted initially to state, for the record, that this sort of nonsense is far from accepted by the majority of Kansas, even the devout ones. Common sense can also lead us to agree with Wee Flea: that this is hardly representative of most Christian Americans. At least the *virulence* of it is not representative. Clearly, the majority of (at least voting) Christian Americans do have a big problem with homosexuality. However, they tend to have a "kinder, gentler" approach than the WBC in spreading their hatred.

I think Dr. Dawkins (or whoever did so) is absolutely justified in posting this video. Even if Phelps is a cynical manipulator, rather than a true believer, many others on this board have pointed out that he has scripture to justify his rhetoric. The Phelps' aren't using a different version of the Bible than any other Christian in this country. The WBC is Christianity stripped of the influence of clear-headed secularism. All religious persons who see this clip and proudly declare that it isn't "their faith," have atheists & secularists to thank for the distinction.
~Jack

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