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Tuesday, June 26, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Trio to rock against religion

by Barry Bateman, iol.co.za

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=124&art_id=vn20070626040504282C606400

A city band's music concert calling for "freedom from religion" is set to rock the pious and ruffle some religious feathers on July 7.

The 777 Rock Against Religion show, featuring seven of South Africa's "most outspoken rock and metal" acts is organised by local trio Architecture Of Aggression. It has already angered some Christians who have made their voices heard on the band's website.

Brothers Anton and Van Alberts and William Bishop say the concert would be a "a peaceful protest against the injustices caused in the name of religion against people of different faiths or the non-religious".

Anton said: "We want to bring to people's attention all the atrocities committed in the name of religion."

In the band's 777 statement it said "religion served a purpose to our distant ancestors in many different, subtle and even useful manners".

"It helped explain 'mysteries' such us the seasonal cycles, creation and where storms come from.

"It also stimulated the imaginations of early humans with stories of great gods and miracles.

"It also served as a useful tool in early civilisations and among nomad tribes, where circumcision could prevent disease in the male population, where eating the wrong animals could lead to infection by parasites and worse. But we have no more need for these controls," it read.

Humanity now had intelligent ideas and understanding of how the universe functioned and possibly how it came into being as well, the statement said. "There is no need for religious dogmatism in our modern, educated, reasoning society any more.

"It is not only redundant but extremely limiting to us as a species. There will always be a place for it, as there will always be a place for the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny," it said.

Bishop said they wanted to break the silence on a subject still considered taboo in South Africa.

"You can't talk about it. We want to get people to speak about it, to provoke people to speak freely and say that it's okay not to be religious."

Van said: "We want people to speak their mind without running the risk of losing their job or being ostracised by their families."

The three said that some mainstream bands pulled out of the show for fear of losing their fan base or what their parents would think of them.

"We don't want people to believe what we believe," said Anton.

"We want to challenge the religious to read the texts of other religions and not to hate or judge other people because they don't know or understand them."

The band said: "If we see someone wearing a 'I love Jesus' shirt we leave them alone, that's their thing.

"The religious need to be educated. If you speak out against religion you are immediately seen as demonic. There is no in-between for them. You are not allowed to have a different point of view," said Anton.

Van said that the conservative were becoming more conservative and that there was a new crusade mentality, as well as increased fundamentalism.

"The religious do not take what they're told and think about it; they take it literally," said Anton, referring to Amal Nassif, 37, who severely damaged her eyes after staring into the sun for a full minute. Benoni "visionary", teenager Francesca Zackey, told her that the sun would begin spinning at dusk and allow believers to see the Virgin Mary appear in it.

"For humanity to prosper we need to move forward and tone down religion," said Anton.

The band planned to hold the concert annually and in the future invite poets and other artists. "We'd like to get a speaker like (famous atheist and author) Richard Dawkins and get the idea out there," said Anton.

Comments 1 - 20 of 20 |

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1. Comment #52177 by MIND_REBEL on June 26, 2007 at 12:22 pm

 avatarReligion is destroying South Africa. It will be a great day when people can just get along without robbing people or being racist all in the name of some god.

Africa needs atheism and rationality like a plant needs water.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

2. Comment #52182 by _J_ on June 26, 2007 at 12:32 pm

 avatar1. Comment #52177 by MIND_REBEL

Africa needs atheism and rationality like a plant needs water.

Not sure I'd go that far. Africa's huge, remember, and religious practices various. I spent time in a village in central Tanzania last summer. Their church gave them a community focus, a serious dose of optimism and hope, and an excuse to sing (which was fantastic). Negatives were less apparent.

Can't speak for S. Africa.

Other Comments by _J_

3. Comment #52189 by konquererz on June 26, 2007 at 12:52 pm

 avatar_J_

Your assuming that only religion can bring hope, joy, optimism, and hope. So church came and gave them that, any number of other types of good will groups can do the same thing. Wouldn't it be nice to see people helping people just because they are human, not because some god told them to? Wouldn't it be nice to give hope to people without the baggage of having to live like a christian so you don't burn in hell forever?

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4. Comment #52193 by MIND_REBEL on June 26, 2007 at 12:56 pm

 avatarNo person has ever been harmed by being too rational.

Almost all of Africa's problems could be reversed in 10 to 15 years if they would just embrace rationality, science and logic. Their religious traditions are the only thing holding them back.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

5. Comment #52195 by Dr Benway on June 26, 2007 at 12:59 pm

 avatar
If you speak out against religion you are immediately seen as demonic.
You did name your group "Architecture Of Aggression," so you must want to frighten someone.

Still, I must say: rock on, brave lads.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

6. Comment #52202 by Deicide on June 26, 2007 at 1:11 pm

Ah yes, Metal speaking out against religion... most metal bands are non religious and many have explicitly anti-religious themes and lyrics, but a music festival dedicated to freedom from religion? Don't think I've heard of that before.

Makes me proud to be a metal-head.

Other Comments by Deicide

7. Comment #52221 by Mat on June 26, 2007 at 2:00 pm

@ Mind Rebel: I've lived and worked in Africa for many years, mainly eastern, but I currently live and work in South Africa. Their religious traditions are not the only thing that is holding them back. I'd certainly agree that the baleful influence of religion (mainly Christian promotion of the idea that black and white should not mix, which was one of the bases of apartheid) in South Africa has been profound, but looking at the continent as a whole, there are many, many problems that are holding them back. Some are self-inflicted, some emphatically aren't. That's not to say I think they shouldn't embrace rationality - it would be wonderful if they did. However, even if they did, there would still be many pressing problems that they would need to combat over many years. Still, I'm glad these rockers are taking up the issue. South Africa is still a very, very religious country, across the board.

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8. Comment #52229 by Spinoza on June 26, 2007 at 2:23 pm

 avatar
Their religious traditions are the only thing holding them back.


... man I wish you weren't an atheist, because you're dumb as shit.

Other Comments by Spinoza

9. Comment #52232 by pewkatchoo on June 26, 2007 at 2:33 pm

 avatarSpinoza
That is not really fair. Rebel is very young and knows very little of the world. He is trying however, and you must give him that. All he needs to do is consider his words a bit more, but then he would not be Rebel. He makes me smile sometimes.

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10. Comment #52301 by PaulEmecz on June 26, 2007 at 4:44 pm

 avatarAm I the only person who finds a lot of this contradictory. They say:

"We want to challenge the religious to read the texts of other religions and not to hate or judge other people because they don't know or understand them."


Then they say:
"The religious do not take what they're told and think about it; they take it literally,"


So, you aren't judging 'the religious' here in this sweeping generalisation.

I'll put my hands up and admit that I'm 'religious'. So, they want me to read the texts of other religions. Great - I'm always willing to read something that someone else has recommended. What will I get from these texts? You can't really expect me to go along with that recommendation if you follow it with "religion served a purpose to our distant ancestors..."

These guys seem to be saying on one hand 'Other religions have some good points that you should listen to' and then 'No religion is relevant in any way'. So which is it? What is the rational religious believer to do here?

If they get Dr Dawkins out there, people won't be encouraged to read religious texts from other religions!

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11. Comment #52360 by BT Murtagh on June 26, 2007 at 9:02 pm

 avatarI'm no longer a metal fan, and never was all that deep into it, but from what I remember the genre is not so much anti-religious as buying into a Satanic motif, with a strong minority of its prominent musicians even explicitly declaring themselves to be Devil-worshippers. The active Satanists are not a majority, but the use of the imagery is overwhelmingly common.

Satanism is about as far from atheist rationality as you can get; not only is it just another religion, but it's even more retarded than Christianity in that they're worshipping the loser in the cosmogonic battle.

Perhaps your experience of metal is quite different than mine was, perhaps metal has progressed (heresy!), but despite this story I find it difficult to picture the metal scene becoming a hotbed of rationalism.

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

12. Comment #52377 by Spinoza on June 26, 2007 at 10:40 pm

 avatarRight, I apologize to MIND_REBEL, that was certainly very harsh of me. (though not unwarranted, in a very obvious way).

It is just that I have this pet peeve about the "Neo-Atheism" movement...

I'm a philosopher (that is, I am a student of philosophy with pretensions of being a philosopher), and an intellectually rigorous atheist (that is, I set about to systematize my atheism, and my objections to theism and religion [as separable conundrums])...

And the most painful thing I have seen in the wake of the pop-atheism "movement", especially here at one of my heroes' websites, has been this strange phenomena of unsophistication, of smugness, and of outright idiocy at times... and I find it harmful.

I once remarked that I LIKE that atheists are a minority... It means that we're probably right, and that we take CARE to make sure that we are getting things right.

It's not simply "We're right because we are, and religious people are dumb."... there are arguments to be made, and questions to be pondered, and so forth.

A criticism of RELIGION is NOT the same as a criticism of THEISM. These are clearly separable (as in Buddhism, and to a far lesser extent, Judaism... that is, of the Einstein/Spinoza "atheistic" Jew...).

And in criticizing religion, I think we ought to take it seriously, to analyze it, to ADMIT when (and if) there is a positive aspect to it REGARDLESS of whether the cosmological status of it is in doubt, or patently false... and to not resort to scapegoating...

Religion is CLEARLY not the only reason Africa is the way it is.

Greed, corruption, the removal of the imperialists (France, Netherlands, Britain, etc etc etc)... tribal warfare, poverty... Religion is involved in these things in many ways... but is not the SOLE cause... though it needs to be attacked.

My personal pet "anti-theism" is against the pope. I think the current one is a scumbag of the highest order (regardless of whether God exists...), and IS to blame for a large amount of suffering in Africa.

However, that villages have no access to clean water or vaccines is not religion's "fault"... it's the fault of a decayed (or undeveloped) infrastructure which is kept down by the greed and despotism of evil people, and the ambivalence of the world which wrought the problems in the first place (the West).

Other Comments by Spinoza

13. Comment #52395 by Apemanblues on June 27, 2007 at 12:56 am

 avatarI've been a heavy metal fan all my life and I can assure you that most metal fans are non-religious and generally unorthodox about most aspects of their lives. Even the ones who promote 'Satanic' imagery.

I'm aware that some people are stupid enough to actually buy into the Satan crap and pretend that it's real, but that's definitely the exception. The vast majority of metal fans (and bands) view it all as a big joke. It's like horror movie fantasy, it's fiction, it's fun.

The fact that it upsets the religious (who do take that kind of thing seriously) just makes the joke funnier.

Other Comments by Apemanblues

14. Comment #52434 by Deicide on June 27, 2007 at 3:05 am

The satanism in metal is usually mere imagery, aimed at being an abraisive message against mainstream religions. Few bands actually believe in satan, and some of those who claim to may just be trying to outdo their fellow bands in a SpinalTap-esque sort of way; being over the top and more extreme than their competition in order to get attention. Kerry King, guitarist for Slayer (one of the biggest metal bands of the last two decades), writes openly satanic messages but in interviews says it is all because "religion is the biggest bullshit story ever told."

Interestingly, Tom Araya, vocalist for Slayer, claims to be a Catholic and I saw a weird interview of him trying to juxtapose his personal beliefs with his band's message. It was a perfect example of how people can manage to "compartmentalize" their brains in such a way that they believe one thing and say the opposite (I guess it's not just christian scientists who are capable of this). Still, I wonder how he can convince himself to sing songs such as "God Hates Us All," "Behind the Crooked Cross," "Cult,"(referring to christianity) or anything from their most recent album, "Christ Illusion." I'm just glad that he lets his guitarists write their material.

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15. Comment #52437 by mmurray on June 27, 2007 at 3:14 am

 avatar
If they get Dr Dawkins out there, people won't be encouraged to read religious texts from other religions!


Why not ? My memory of The God Delusion is he was keen on people studying comparative religion.

Michael

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16. Comment #52453 by John Phillips on June 27, 2007 at 4:05 am

PaulEmecz: You do amuse me, you accuse them of sweeping generalisations and then make one yourself with your statement
If they get Dr Dawkins out there, people won't be encouraged to read religious texts from other religions!
All this does is show that you haven't actually listened to or read much by RD, have you. For if you had you would have heard him say repeatedly that he believes that everybody should be taught both the history of religions and comparative religion and then left to make up their own minds on what to believe, or not. His thinking being, and one I share, that if everybody studied the history of religions and saw for themselves how each claims to be the true religion yet are all filled with a myriad contradictions, that the majority of children would come to the obvious conclusion that it is all bunk. Perhaps this is the reason that very few religious people, irrespective of faith, allow the teaching of a genuine comparative religion class to their children. At least not beyond the most shallow of such examinations, and we all know why that is.

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17. Comment #52620 by PaulEmecz on June 27, 2007 at 2:29 pm

 avatar
My memory of The God Delusion is he was keen on people studying comparative religion.


he believes that everybody should be taught both the history of religions and comparative religion


I have to disagree. What Dawkins actually said in TGD was (p340):

A good case can indeed be made for the educational benefits of teaching comparative religion... what transparent nonsense this is! These faiths are mutually incompatible... Let children learn about different faiths, let them notice their incompatibility, and let them draw their own conclusions about the consequences of that incompatibility.


Please read the full text - I have shortened this to prevent it being too long here. Dawkins isn't encouraging the study of comparitive religion, which is:

"a field of study seeking to derive general principles from a comparison and classification of the growth and influence of various religions."
Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


He doesn't want people to learn from other religions. What he wants people to learn is that religions are different, they can't all be right therefore they must be wrong. When he talks of the 'educational benefits' of studying comparative religion, this is tongue-in-cheek. It's the Dawkins sense of humour at its best.

Richard Dawkins, and 777 Rock Against Religion, would be being disingenuous if they recommended that people studied and learnt from religious texts. Dawkins doesn't say that, and where these guys do, they contradict themselves.

Other Comments by PaulEmecz

18. Comment #52627 by kkant on June 27, 2007 at 2:43 pm

Deicide writes:
Kerry King, guitarist for Slayer (one of the biggest metal bands of the last two decades), writes openly satanic messages but in interviews says it is all because "religion is the biggest bullshit story ever told."


Exactly. None of these folks believe in Satan, any more than Jesus. The point of the Satanic lyrics is to say, "We know all of religion is bullshit, and just to stand behind our words we're going to say 'Hail Satan' as a big Fuck You to all the religious frauds out there." It's kind of like the Blashpemy Challenge by that Rational Response Squad website.

Thumbs up to this S. African metal band.

And LMAO at the theist PaulEmecz who posted above. These guys are just determined to misunderstand or write off atheism, aren't they. They keep criticizing the minor scratches in our paint (if indeed they are not misinterpreting even their nitpicks), while ignoring the huge elephant sitting in their own living room.

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19. Comment #52684 by BT Murtagh on June 27, 2007 at 6:17 pm

 avatarWell, as I admitted I was never much of a metal head, and I'm happy to be corrected by those who are. There definitely are some fans who buy the whole Satanist thing at face value, but I'm happy to be informed they're in a minority.

Oh, and I should have said earlier - As for Architecture Of Aggression and the lads, more power to their mikes!

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

20. Comment #52986 by John Phillips on June 28, 2007 at 11:38 pm

Paul: Actually, if you reread my post that is exactly what I said. I.e. give children the chance to see the myriad contradictions in each religion and left to their own they will soon see it for the BS it is. When I did comparative religion as a teenager it was looking at the different beliefs, histories and philosophies of the worlds major religions, i.e. compare them. It was the first I had ever really thought about the subject, even though I was notionally a xtian, and soon saw it for the irrational rubbish it was. It is the main reason that I have been an atheist now for 40+ years, ironically it happened in a CofW (Anglican) school.

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