1. Comment #52365 by MrEmpirical on June 26, 2007 at 9:19 pm

This show kicks arse, beautiful demonstration of how even apparent 'miracles' have a rational explanation.

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2. Comment #52367 by Kell on June 26, 2007 at 9:37 pm

Josh: article title, it should be Derren Brown.

Cool, I regretably missed this when it originally aired.

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3. Comment #52372 by Steve19 on June 26, 2007 at 10:10 pm

I'm generally not too good at figuring out how magicians do things, but do you get the impression the people in the second scene (on evangelism) were pretty much asking for conversion (i.e. they feel lonely and confused etc)?

All in all I found it fascinating. I like him better than David Blaine.

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4. Comment #52375 by Happy Hominid on June 26, 2007 at 10:26 pm

This needs to be shown on American television (assuming it has not been already). Again, it's not something that will sway the true believers (because they just KNOW that their faith is the one exception that is REALLY TRUE) but for most people, such as many of the folks that were in Derren's video, it's a real wake-up call.

I can imagine that anyone with a reasonable sense of reality would have a hard time getting suckered into some ridiculous belief system if they had the chance to see this before a charlatan gets their claws into them.

Great job, Derren! Again, let's get this on American TV.

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5. Comment #52376 by eggplantbren on June 26, 2007 at 10:37 pm

Derren is a very good mentalist. For some reason, some people believe that it really all is suggestion/body language, etc, which isn't true. He did a really good interview with Jamy Ian Swiss that's worth checking out, there's some interesting comments about the ethics of performing this kind of thing.

http://www.jamyianswiss.com/fm/works/derren-brown.html

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6. Comment #52382 by GodlessHeathen on June 27, 2007 at 12:00 am

The bit where Derren is doing the "conversion by touch" bit scared me a little. Especially as the audiences were introduced as "skeptical".

I have to question weather I've cultivated in myself the necessary questioning habits to brush with that kind of thing without coming away trapped by it.

We need more shows like this!

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7. Comment #52383 by Thor the Mariner on June 27, 2007 at 12:10 am

Im delighted this has been posted here. I am a massive fan of Derren and have a great respect for the way he has taught himself all those techniques and is a unique showman. Even more pleasing is the way he exposes charlatans from every walk of life.

However, in a similar way that religious people refuse to listen to logic and reason, i have seen people disregard Derren's actions and continue to insist the likes of Colin Fry are genuine as "there is no way he could have known that". Anyway, keep up the entertainment Derren!

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8. Comment #52385 by ImagineAZ on June 27, 2007 at 12:19 am

I'm only at the beginning, but this guy has BALLS lol. I'm from quite near Sedona btw.

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9. Comment #52390 by troyboy on June 27, 2007 at 12:33 am

I'd love to know how he did those tricks without accomplices. Ideas anyone?

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10. Comment #52392 by Apemanblues on June 27, 2007 at 12:33 am

Awesome. I saw this when It was first aired.

With people like Derren Brown around I find it very difficult to believe how ANYBODY, even the scientifically retarded, can be taken in by mediums, spiritualists and the like. Unless of course they are unaware that their 'paranormal experiences' can be faked by anyone willing to take the time to learn how to do it (as Derren Brown humbly admits).

But then, with all the science available I find it difficult to believe how anyone can be taken in by creationists either. I guess I have unrealistic expectations about the reasoning capabilities of human beings in general.

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11. Comment #52397 by ImagineAZ on June 27, 2007 at 1:09 am

Ok, I've seen many videos of people performing tricks like this before, and I've seen fake cold readers, but I have never seen anything like this. He needs to explain how he does it all.

I mean, he got that lady's pictures perfect. The dream catcher isn't too hard to explain. The seance was fairly standard for a fake seance, but that lady's pictures were dead-on accurate. Also, I was quite surprised that he made a room full of people fall down.

We need an explanation video.

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12. Comment #52400 by eggplantbren on June 27, 2007 at 1:20 am

I agree, there comes a point when it becomes "too perfect" and we need at least some hints of method. Either that or everyone just assumes the worst (stooges, etc), despite the disclaimer. The actual methods for mentalist tricks are usually quite clever and beyond me.

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13. Comment #52401 by JazzX on June 27, 2007 at 1:21 am

The only people he's hoodwinking are the so-called atheists above me. You're supposed to question nonsense!

Actors (and not particularly good ones) were involved here.

It's plain to see - the converted man was a particularly poor actor.

This was also true of Brown's dreadful "heist" gig. Not one of the actors used in that was any good either. Ordinary people supposedly persuaded to rob a Securicor van! They couldn't act for toffee and it showed.

But the most appalling thing is that the respondents above me are taking Derren Brown's act to be true when ANY questioning individual would see multiple holes in his performance - and, just as we demand an explanation for the existence of God as atheists - it strikes me as completely at odds that this charlatan will try to "expose religious belief" without ever telling us the secrets of his "magic".

You've all been hoodwinked by his rather lazy trickery.

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14. Comment #52408 by ImagineAZ on June 27, 2007 at 1:38 am

JazzX,

I've seen explanations of fake seances and many other such fake phenomena. And maybe they only showed the few pictures he got right and deleted the rest.

But of course we all thought the lady with the pictures was probably a plant, and maybe the skeptics who got converted were plants, but he specifically said (and it was written on screen as well) that he didn't use any actors. If he used actors, then he is a charlatan in the worst sense of the word.

Basically, what you're saying is that he's not even an honest fake.

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15. Comment #52412 by CJ22 on June 27, 2007 at 1:45 am

Many of the techniques used by Brown are outlined in his book "Tricks Of The Mind". He re-iterates in there that he does NOT use actors, take it or leave it. Interestingly, Brown does NOT believe that there is any such thing as a hypnotic trance state.

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16. Comment #52413 by eggplantbren on June 27, 2007 at 1:46 am

Well, in other context I've seen him using methods that I know about (nail writers and things like that. Shhh). And drawing duplication is a staple of mentalism. My unimaginativity is not convincing evidence that it is faked in the most obvious way.

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17. Comment #52416 by celestial_T on June 27, 2007 at 1:55 am

I'm a big fan of Derren - he really pushes the boundaries and would certainly have been burned as a witch in another century! His Mind Control shows are full of jaw-dropping stuff. Have they been shown in the US?

Re comment 9 Troyboy - read Derren's book for some insight into how he does it (but not as much as you'd hope!). He did some other shows where he explained to some degree, especially about the remote viewing and mind-reading, which is more about leading his subject on to draw/think of what he wants them to. eg with the first section of this he asks the woman drawing the pictures to let images 'sail into your mind' and 'don't go overboard on the details' - and hey, she draws a sail boat!

In his stage show he pulls off an amazing trick and then proceeds to show the audience how he subconsciously guided them to the result he wanted (and was thus able to 'predict' it)

I believe he's honest: he tells you he's going to trick you, and then he does - brilliantly.

clever stuff

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18. Comment #52422 by chbg21808 on June 27, 2007 at 2:14 am

Derren Brown is a brilliant magician and illusionist. No way he would of been able to do this in th UK... Everyone knows him.

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19. Comment #52424 by AdrianB on June 27, 2007 at 2:17 am

I have a lot of respect for Derren Brown, and am pleased that the likes him, Penn&Teller, Randi etc are on our side.

I prefer his smaller scale demonstrations to be honest, they show his true talents, and the sad predictability of humans.

A number of years ago, when my daughter was about 6, I used to play "guess which hand it's in" with her. I could always read what she was going to go for next, (4 out of 5 anyway) and I once had a run of 20 that she got wrong. I wouldn't be able to do that to her now, or any other adult, but Derren Brown could.

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20. Comment #52430 by Sigmund on June 27, 2007 at 2:43 am

Its rather shocking that a pretend psychic like this can get results so similar to real psychics and healers such as Yuri Gellar, Silvia Brown and Benny Hinn;)
I bet he really is psychic and is just denying it! The big spoilsport.

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21. Comment #52431 by Lord_Satorious on June 27, 2007 at 2:50 am

Derren Brown reminds me of James Randi, only without the pulling back of the curtain and showing exactly how it's done. His approach is more subtle, he simply says, 'think about it'. It's not directly calling something a hoax and trying to convince people of it, it's more like getting people to think of it as being a possible hoax all on their own. Sometimes that can be more convincing.

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22. Comment #52436 by AdrianB on June 27, 2007 at 3:14 am

If a non-pretent pretend psychic like John Edwards can fleece people out of millions today, even with the disadvantages of some media ridicule, just think how powerful they could have been 2000 years ago!

Lucky we've got a few pretend psychics and magic men around, just to remind us how easily we can be duped.

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23. Comment #52438 by Thor the Mariner on June 27, 2007 at 3:15 am

Jazz X - To dismiss Derren's act as "lazy trickery" is very ignorant. The guy has worked incredibly hard at developing and perfecting his techniques for years.

"The only people he's hoodwinking are the so-called atheists above me. You're supposed to question nonsense!"

And I do. If you have seen much of Derren's stuff he reguarly reveals the techniques he uses. His most common trick is to drop in relevant words into conversation that plant ideas into people's heads. I dont think he uses actors and i still safely consider myself an athiest.

The "dreadful Heist gig" as you call it explained his techniques throughout the show. He carefully selected just 4 people from a larger group that had already been pre-selected as potentially suseptable and it didnt work on all of those. He bombarded them for days with very specific information and suggestions to get them to act as they did. If it was fake then it's a shame but i don't think any kind of leap of faith is required to belive it was genuine.

Derren never disguises the fact that his skills work best on a certain type of person. The fact that you think you would be immune from his techniques does not mean everyone is.

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24. Comment #52440 by drive1 on June 27, 2007 at 3:18 am

Derren frequently uses visual and verbal 'plants' to lead people in a certain direction. The most fascinating, to me, is the planted verbal direction. Notice, when he's talking direct to the camera, that his speech is clear and flowing. When he's doing his act, he is hesitant, stumbling over words occasionally. It seems natural, but is actually quite brilliant. Often what appears to be a change of thought as he's talking, or a slurred word, or an out-of-place colloquialism, is heard as garbage or noise when you hear it, and is filtered out so you can make sense of what he's saying (notice how quickly he speaks sometimes). But when his words are filed away in your brain, they're re-interpreted.

This video is heavilly edited, so we don't see the preparation of his subjects. Also keep in mind his extraordinary memory feats, which are fully explained in his book.

As for the pictures trick, the key will have been is the conversations we didn't see. For instance I'll bet during normal conversation before the filming started, he'll have spotted a fruit bowl in the office and directed the lady's attention to a banana in the bowl (subtly, of course .. probably just my moving towards it, or by picking up a photo on the same desk and replacing it next to the bowl). Then when calling out to her to do that drawing, he probably called something like "let's see if this one bears fruit" or something like that. The lady is starting with no pre-conceived ideas .. the choice of possible designs she could draw is enormous .. how to choose? Well, Derren gave her a nice little nudge.

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25. Comment #52446 by fin on June 27, 2007 at 3:53 am

ImagineAZ:

I mean, he got that lady's pictures perfect.

We get to hear or see only a fraction of all the suggestions he makes, like "...let different images just SAIL through your mind...don't go OVERBOARD on detail..."

And the lady draws a sailboat.

On the other hand, maybe we are the ones being tricked. Maybe the hints are for us so that we would think that they are suggestions, and he is wearing a small earphone and has an accomplish with a wireless transmitter.

Maybe we are only shown the hits, we do not know how many misses he made.

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26. Comment #52451 by Tycho the Dog on June 27, 2007 at 4:02 am

Sigmund,

I heard exactly that response on another show. They instucted a guy in cold reading techniques then let him loose as a psychic. The person he gave a reading to was convinced by the reading, and even when the trick was revealed still insisted that the reader must have had latent psychic powers to have picked up on what he did.

This was the same show Randi appeared on as a 'psychic', freaked one of the audience members out with his accuracy, then revealed how he had done it, only to be followed by a 'genuine' psychic who spouted the usual vague hit-or-miss bullshit, with the audience gasping at his 'amazing' powers.

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27. Comment #52460 by leodavinci on June 27, 2007 at 4:25 am

I used to dislike Derren Brown because he gives the impression to his audience that he is doing real magic - we know what that is mutually supporting to don't we!!
I glad to see he is taking a similar path as the great Houdini and using his skills to shoot down those that claim supernatural abilities in all their forms. Just in case any of you are unfamiliar with Houdini, he had a very strong dislike of psychics/mystics and those that claimed they could speak to the dead. So he decided to set them a challenge upon his death. Before he died he gave his wife a secret code, if these charlatans really could speak to the dead they should know what the code is right? Of course none of them ever got it and this form of daylight robbery had a marked decline in they years following his death, however has enjoyed a resurgance in recent decades,keep up the good work Mr Brown.

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28. Comment #52465 by jonecc on June 27, 2007 at 4:41 am

The point with the Psychic Institute from the American Glastonbury is that they are a self-selected group, where all the questioning minds have been winnowed out.

You or I would think "OK, but he's talked to the woman, and she's selecting her own image. Give her five images, get someone Brown hasn't met to select one and ask her to draw it. Then repeat the process with different volunteers, a statistically significant number of times." All the people who might think that way, though, never joined or have already left.

It's analogous to natural selection. If members of the Psychic Institute were the only people who were allowed to breed, humanity would become more and more credulous with every generation.

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29. Comment #52467 by Rachel Holmes on June 27, 2007 at 4:44 am

I've seen Derren Brown live. He picked participants by lobbing a teddy bear into the audience. The person who caught it would then throw it again, and the person who caught it would throw it to a third person. The third person would then come up to the stage.

I very much doubt that there are enough skilled teddy-bear-throwers in the world for Derren to ensure he got a stooge to come up each time. :-)

Incidentally, in one trick he used the classic psychic test cards (featuring stars, wavy lines etc). He asked the audience member to guess what card he was holding. (All this was filmed close up and projected onto a screen visible to the whole audience.) The audience member correctly guessed 5/5 times. DB went out of his way to point out that 'real' psychics do no better than chance would dictate, and that their success was to do with subtle communication, not psychic powers.

He does like to debunk woo-woo.

God knows how he does these things though.

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30. Comment #52469 by Philip1978 on June 27, 2007 at 4:52 am

Rachel, I saw that on TV, he showed a video that his friend had been taking during his performance and he had been yelling the entire way through his act the name of the paper and the paragraph to go for, it was incredible!

Plus his walking on glass was truly amazing as well,

I am jealous you got to see that live :)

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31. Comment #52471 by Rachel Holmes on June 27, 2007 at 4:56 am

I couldn't bring myself to watch him walking on glass. Not after he extracted a great long shard from his heel after the first trek through.

*shudders*

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32. Comment #52478 by AdrianB on June 27, 2007 at 5:31 am

There's a great Penn&Teller Bull**** programme that dubunks the walking on glass or burning coals thing. There are a load of "motivational" courses out there, where people are prepared to take $dollars off others, with life changing promises that you will have the mental strength to say no to pain and be able to walk on glass and burning coals.

Basically, we can all do it. The soles of the feet are quite tough, and no practice is required.(As long as you use burning wood embers, and not real coal which burns at a much higher temp).

So get out there Rachel!

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33. Comment #52481 by gcooke on June 27, 2007 at 5:38 am

JazzX wrote:
>It's plain to see - the converted man was a particularly poor actor.

I completely disagree. He's done dozens of these programs, and far too many people are involved for it to be fake. Plus, I thought the converted man came across totally naturally in his speech.

It's just magic, trickery etc, but what these skills can be used to do is scary. Psychic mediums and their ilk are nothing but dubious dangerous con artists.

G

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34. Comment #52485 by Rachel Holmes on June 27, 2007 at 5:47 am

Hi Adrian,

This was no cheap Anthony Robbins "firewalk with me" trick and I watched him pull out the shard. It was pretty deep in his foot. Please don't make me talk about ths any more - my stomach is faily weak and I've only just eaten!

I'm a skydiver but there are some things I'm not willing to try! Do report back if you give it a go yourself, though :-P

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35. Comment #52490 by _J_ on June 27, 2007 at 6:08 am

Philip1978 and Rachel Holmes - I saw a show in the same tour as you're both describing, too, when he was in Manchester. Some really amazing stuff, and the video bit at the end was a serious mind-buggerer.

His book contains quite a lot of interesting material. As well as spending time going over some of the principles he uses, there's a long section on psuedoscience and nonsense and some quite reverential nods to Richard Dawkins.

On the issue of debunking, it was interesting to read his remark that the most difficult audience members to dupe are those who are not really paying attention. The more you concentrate and try to see through the performer, the more you allow him to manipulate what you are seeing.

Also interesting was that, out of all his TV specials (including this Messiah one, the Russian roulette and the 'armed-robbery' of the Heist) the one that got the most viewer complaints was: the one where he faked a seance. Just a seance. The most daft and harmless of the lot. Tells you something, doesn't it?

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36. Comment #52492 by Philip1978 on June 27, 2007 at 6:10 am

Adrian, she is right, there was a huuuge shard out of his foot, it was gruesome!

I know how sometimes if the glass or whatever the magician is standing on is grouped enough together it is possible to walk over it and not feel a thing. But I saw it on close up on TV, that is one nasty piece of glass he took out his foot!!

*Philip Shudders too!*

Other Comments by Philip1978

37. Comment #52513 by d4m14n on June 27, 2007 at 6:58 am

Here's the walking on glass stunt for anyone that hasn't seen it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNI_46cOsM8

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38. Comment #52532 by Orion on June 27, 2007 at 7:55 am

Celestial T:
"In his stage show he pulls off an amazing trick and then proceeds to show the audience how he subconsciously guided them to the result he wanted (and was thus able to 'predict' it)"

Convincing the audience that he 'subconsciously guided them to the result he wanted' is almost certainly just another part of the trick. There's little he does that can't be done with normal conjuring tricks. To paraphrase James Randi (talking about Uri Geller): If he's really doing his tricks in the way he CLAIMS to be doing them, then he's doing it the hard way.

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39. Comment #52533 by celestial_T on June 27, 2007 at 7:55 am

Philip, Rachel and co - oh thanks a lot for making me think of that can't-bear-to-look glass walking! I only saw it on tv - must've been great to be there for real - but it looked pretty convincing.

Brown is also a master of theatrics of course and I seem to recall he made a great job of building up the angst/anticipation what with claiming to bring his heart rate to a halt etc beforehand. but even so - that did look like real, pointy, slicey glass.... ugh!

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40. Comment #52535 by Insomicman on June 27, 2007 at 7:58 am

JazzX - Though I admire your ability to question your own skepticism, a quick search using Google leads me to believe that your claims are a bit paranoid. Here are links to the five people in their respected "fields" that Derren spoke to in the program:

Abby Isadora Haydon: www.sedonacreativelife.com/pre0743.html

Curt Nordhielm: http://www.rhmnewengland.org/nordhielmcurt.asp

Lorraine DiFelice: www.jerrypippin.com/Paranormal_Lorraine_DiFelice.htm www.itsallinthetiming.com/

Ann Druffel: www.anndruffel.com/

Janet Nohavec: www.janetnohavec.com/

It seems quite unlikely that these people would risk their careers in order to be part of an elaborate scam that the mentalist has created, and even more unlikely that all these websites and personalities were created for the show. Again, Occam's razor makes short work of those conspiracy theories. It's important to note that though much of a skeptic's work entails exposing the lies perpetrated by others, it is NOT the same as naysaying; doing so can easily give way to nihilism. You're perfectly welcome to look more into this and post evidence that this is all part of an elaborate hoax, and I will be the first to admit that I have been fooled. But, playing the odds, and they are good at the moment, I'm pretty sure that Derren was honest about his dishonesty. I would search a bit farther into this matter, but I've got some last minute programming homework to complete.

P.S. – As an added bonus, note part of the blurb on the first of the DiFelice sites, which is in desperate need of an update:

"Recently, Lorraine took part in a TV show from England featuring Robert Frawley. Frawley has invented a dream machine that can tell you what you dreamed in detail even days or weeks later."

Whoops!

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41. Comment #52538 by celestial_T on June 27, 2007 at 8:03 am

Hi Orion

re your comment 39 - hmmm that's an interesting point! just goes to show DB is a master of the total mindfuck (I believe that's the correct technical term). I suppose the other thing to consider is, do we get a thrill out of being duped and knowing it (but not quite knowing how)? And the answer is - sometimes - yes!

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42. Comment #52551 by konquererz on June 27, 2007 at 9:05 am

I love every one that is willing to say this is fake. The problem with saying that is that this stuff happens every single day. I have seen people "slain" in the spirit, and have all kinds of miraculous conversions, including myself, people really fall for stuff like this. Great video!

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43. Comment #52562 by Nastikananda on June 27, 2007 at 9:39 am

Please could somebody tell me where I can find explanations and the technology behind the process of how Derren Brown performs these manipulative tricks?
Does someone know a book or website ? I have friends who go to mediums to communicate with the dead. I want to help.{When you care for someone you don't want that person to live a lie]

Please help!

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44. Comment #52563 by hightrekker on June 27, 2007 at 9:40 am

Magical Thinking:
From a post on The Oil Drum--
"It is fascinating to read the Canadian Round-Ups -- we get virtually no news of Canada in the USA media, even though Canada is the #1 source of imported hydrocarbon, and our closest neighbor in countless ways. Thanks be to OilDrum for helping bridge the gap.

Yesterday I unwittingly started a rather silly pseudo-philosophical thread -- my fault for not being clear. The point was that the Disney Machine, powered by cheap oil and set in the fabulous Shangri-La of California had converted Yankee pragmatism into magical thinking -- which could be sustained only so long as the oil lasted. The point about David Hume was that people who were forced to abandon belief in deductive reasoning would likely naturally gravitate to magical thinking -- especially if it were so attractively packaged as the Disney package. Most people, in my experience, are extremely uncomfortable with skepticism and either collapse into rigid orthodoxy or New-Age wu wu. Students of Hume (I count myself a reader, not a serious student, and I'm sure I miss a lot of his message) must recognize what their position sometimes creates-- if unintentionally.

Enter Canada -- the new Source. The magical thinking can continue for a while, bolstered by the promise of Endless Tar Sands. It looks, from the Round-Up that the magical infection is spreading to our pragmatic cousins up north -- I sincerely hope their immunity to claptrap is stronger than ours down south."

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45. Comment #52566 by Jakob_Woods on June 27, 2007 at 9:49 am

I was thinking that I would draw a tree and then later a sailboat. Damn!

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46. Comment #52572 by bitbutter on June 27, 2007 at 10:10 am

Fascinating stuff. All credit to him for using his skills to encourage skepticism rather than credulity.

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47. Comment #52585 by Prospero on June 27, 2007 at 11:12 am

Here he shows a little bit of how it's done.
(or is it a "trick explanation"? :P)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Vr4BjP0tI

Other Comments by Prospero

48. Comment #52589 by Snyds on June 27, 2007 at 11:36 am

Walking over hot coals has a very simple explanation. While the soles of our feet are rather thick, its not the real reason. The coals actually are very poor conductors of heat, and not enough heat is transfered to actually burn your feet. If it were metal at the same temperature, you'd be in touble.

Great show, but its sad how suggestable we really are...

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49. Comment #52598 by Axulus on June 27, 2007 at 12:16 pm

While I'm also a fan of Derren Brown, I just wanted to comment on the idea that he can plant ideas in people's heads by using carefully selected words to influence them. This idea is unscientific, there is little if any truth to subliminal messages or ideas being able to be planted in the brain, it just simply is not how the brain works. He uses these techniques to confuse his audience on how he really does his tricks. However, people being highly suggestible in certain states of mind is a legitimate hypnosis type trick.

See a good article about this here:
http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

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50. Comment #52603 by RickM on June 27, 2007 at 12:43 pm

The skeptic at the very end of the vid mentioned Mormans. Joseph Smith, the two bit huckster with the seeing rocks and golden plates has a follower running for president.

Do you think the news media would ask Mitt Romney if, as a Morman, he actually believes that some day he will become a god and rule over his own planet? Not likely. How many voters would be that gullible? Yet, many believe in virgin birth.

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