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Wednesday, June 27, 2007 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document Science of the Soul? 'I Think, Therefore I Am' Is Losing Force

by Cornelia Dean

Reposted from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/science/26soul.html?ref=science

In 1950, in a letter to bishops, Pope Pius XII took up the issue of evolution. The Roman Catholic Church does not necessarily object to the study of evolution as far as it relates to physical traits, he wrote in the encyclical, Humani Generis. But he added, "Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God."

Pope John Paul II made much the same point in 1996, in a message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, an advisory group to the Vatican. Although he noted that in the intervening years evolution had become "more than a hypothesis," he added that considering the mind as emerging merely from physical phenomena was "incompatible with the truth about man."

But as evolutionary biologists and cognitive neuroscientists peer ever deeper into the brain, they are discovering more and more genes, brain structures and other physical correlates to feelings like empathy, disgust and joy. That is, they are discovering physical bases for the feelings from which moral sense emerges — not just in people but in other animals as well.

The result is perhaps the strongest challenge yet to the worldview summed up by Descartes, the 17th-century philosopher who divided the creatures of the world between humanity and everything else. As biologists turn up evidence that animals can exhibit emotions and patterns of cognition once thought of as strictly human, Descartes's dictum, "I think, therefore I am," loses its force.

For many scientists, the evidence that moral reasoning is a result of physical traits that evolve along with everything else is just more evidence against the existence of the soul, or of a God to imbue humans with souls. For many believers, particularly in the United States, the findings show the error, even wickedness, of viewing the world in strictly material terms. And they provide for theologians a growing impetus to reconcile the existence of the soul with the growing evidence that humans are not, physically or even mentally, in a class by themselves.

The idea that human minds are the product of evolution is "unassailable fact," the journal Nature said this month in an editorial on new findings on the physical basis of moral thought. A headline on the editorial drove the point home: "With all deference to the sensibilities of religious people, the idea that man was created in the image of God can surely be put aside."

Or as V. S. Ramachandran, a brain scientist at the University of California, San Diego, put it in an interview, there may be soul in the sense of "the universal spirit of the cosmos," but the soul as it is usually spoken of, "an immaterial spirit that occupies individual brains and that only evolved in humans — all that is complete nonsense." Belief in that kind of soul "is basically superstition," he said.

For people like the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins, talk of the soul is of a piece with the rest of the palaver of religious faith, which he has likened to a disease. And among evolutionary psychologists, religious faith is nothing but an evolutionary artifact, a predilection that evolved because shared belief increased group solidarity and other traits that contribute to survival and reproduction.

Nevertheless, the idea of a divinely inspired soul will not be put aside. To cite just one example, when 10 Republican presidential candidates were asked at a debate last month if there was anyone among them who did not believe in evolution, 3 raised their hands. One of them, Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas, explained later in an op-ed article in this newspaper that he did not reject all evolutionary theory. But he added, "Man was not an accident and reflects an image and likeness unique in the created order."

That is the nub of the issue, according to Nancey Murphy, a philosopher at Fuller Theological Seminary who has written widely on science, religion and the soul. Challenges to the uniqueness of humanity in creation are just as alarming as the Copernican assertion that Earth is not the center of the universe, she writes in her book "Bodies and Souls or Spirited Bodies?" (Cambridge, 2006). Just as Copernicus knocked Earth off its celestial pedestal, she said, the new findings on cognition have displaced people from their "strategic location" in creation.

Another theologian who has written widely on the issue, John F. Haught of Georgetown University, said in an interview that "for many Americans the only way to preserve the discontinuity that's implied in the notion of a soul, a distinct soul, is to deny evolution," which he said was "unfortunate."

There is no credible scientific challenge to the theory of evolution as an explanation for the diversity and complexity of life on earth.

For Dr. Murphy and Dr. Haught, though, people make a mistake when they assume that people can be "ensouled" only if other creatures are soulless.

"Evolutionary biology shows the transition from animal to human to be too gradual to make sense of the idea that we humans have souls while animals do not," wrote Dr. Murphy, an ordained minister in the Church of the Brethren. "All the human capacities once attributed to the mind or soul are now being fruitfully studied as brain processes — or, more accurately, I should say, processes involving the brain, the rest of the nervous system and other bodily systems, all interacting with the socio-cultural world."

Therefore, she writes, it is "faulty" reasoning to want to distinguish people from the rest of creation. She and Dr. Haught cite the ideas of Thomas Aquinas, the 13th-century philosopher and theologian who, Dr. Haught said, "spoke of a vegetative and animal soul along with the human soul."

Dr. Haught, who testified for the American Civil Liberties Union when it successfully challenged the teaching of intelligent design, an ideological cousin of creationism, in the science classrooms of Dover, Pa., said, "The way I look at it, instead of eliminating the notion of a human soul in order to make us humans fit seamlessly into the rest of nature, it's wiser to recognize that there is something analogous to soul in all living beings."

Does this mean, say, that Australopithecus afarensis, the proto-human famously exemplified by the fossil skeleton known as Lucy, had a soul? He paused and then said: "I think so, yes. I think all of our hominid ancestors were ensouled in some way, but that does not rule out the possibility that as evolution continues, the shape of the soul can vary just as it does from individual to individual."

Will this idea catch on? "It's not something you hear in the suburban pulpit," said Dr. Haught, a Roman Catholic whose book "God After Darwin" (Westview Press, 2000) is being reissued this year. "This is out of vogue in the modern world because the philosopher Descartes made such a distinction between mind and matter. He placed the whole animal world on the side of matter, which is essentially mindless."

Dr. Haught said it could be difficult to discuss the soul and evolution because it was one of many issues in which philosophical thinking was not keeping up with fast-moving science. "The theology itself is still in process," he said.

For scientists who are people of faith, like Kenneth R. Miller, a biologist at Brown University, asking about the science of the soul is pointless, in a way, because it is not a subject science can address. "It is not physical and investigateable in the world of science," he said.

"Everything we know about the biological sciences says that life is a phenomenon of physics and chemistry, and therefore the notion of some sort of spirit to animate it and give the flesh a life really doesn't fit with modern science," said Dr. Miller, a Roman Catholic whose book, "Finding Darwin's God" (Harper, 1999) explains his reconciliation of the theory of evolution with religious faith. "However, if you regard the soul as something else, as you might, say, the spiritual reflection of your individuality as a human being, then the theology of the soul it seems to me is on firm ground."

Dr. Miller, who also testified in the Dover case, said he spoke often at college campuses and elsewhere and was regularly asked, "What do you say as a scientist about the soul?" His answer, he said, is always the same: "As a scientist, I have nothing to say about the soul. It's not a scientific idea."

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1. Comment #52625 by PaulEmecz on June 27, 2007 at 2:41 pm

 avatarHmmm.

physical correlates


So, we have a quality, consciousness, an awareness of our own experiences, which is found in humans. Humans evolved from animals that were not conscious. Therefore there's no essential difference between humans and non-human animals.

As long as you don't worry too much about the consciousness bit, it is all explicable by physical correlation.

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2. Comment #52631 by mmurray on June 27, 2007 at 2:55 pm

 avatar
"However, if you regard the soul as something else, as you might, say, the spiritual reflection of your individuality as a human being, then the theology of the soul it seems to me is on firm ground."


I wonder what his idea of quicksand is ?

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

3. Comment #52632 by Alkal on June 27, 2007 at 3:03 pm

Why are the Republican Presidential hopefuls considered "intelligent" that their non-belief in evolution is s discussed.
In reality, it takes a more developed mind- one which has the ability to reason and move beyond the lower bases of knowledge to be able to understand science and the religious lot actually always go for the more poorly educated lot- because they are easier to convince.
It takes brains to reject religion. Most folks don't have the brains to :D

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4. Comment #52633 by phil rimmer on June 27, 2007 at 3:07 pm

 avatarComment #52625 by PaulEmecz

"..Humans evolved from animals that were not conscious..."

Relax. Animals have some vestige of consciousness. They probably have emotional lives too.

This is from a New Scientist article-

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/mg19426051.300-do-animals-have-emotions.html

"While watching elephants in the Samburu National Reserve in northern Kenya, I noticed one that walked very slowly. Elephant expert Iain Douglas-Hamilton told me that this female elephant, Babyl, had been crippled for years, but the other members of the herd never left her behind. They would walk a while and then stop and look around to see where she was. Depending on how she was doing, they would either wait or go on. Sometimes the matriarch even fed Babyl. The elephants had nothing to gain by helping her as she could do little for them. The only obvious conclusion was that their kindness and care was unconditional. Out of friendship and empathy they adjusted their behaviour to allow Babyl to remain with the group."

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5. Comment #52635 by OhioAtheist on June 27, 2007 at 3:08 pm

 avatar
There is no credible scientific challenge to the theory of evolution as an explanation for the diversity and complexity of life on earth.


It's very refreshing to see this so unambiguously stated in a major newspaper.

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6. Comment #52636 by roach on June 27, 2007 at 3:11 pm

This article saddened and frustrated me. But not because it highlights that there is no good reason to think we humans have souls.

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7. Comment #52640 by PaulJ on June 27, 2007 at 3:15 pm

 avatar
For scientists who are people of faith, like Kenneth R. Miller, a biologist at Brown University, asking about the science of the soul is pointless, in a way, because it is not a subject science can address. "It is not physical and investigateable in the world of science," he said.
The soul is an idea -- and no more than that. Like consciousness and self-awareness, the soul is a manifestation of complex thought processes. The soul as 'an actual thing' doesn't exist. As Kenneth R. Miller says above, it's not physical, in the same way that stereoscopic vision isn't physical. Three-dimensional visual perception is a manifestation of perceptive pattern-recognition. We see a solid object, and our other perceptive experiences confirm the solidity of the object seen. But its solidity is an illusion created by our cognitive framework. We don't see in 3D -- we actually receive two slightly different images, and our perceptive acuity interprets these differences as solidity.

In the case of consciousness, we appear to have self-awareness, and it's natural to go from that to the question, "If we are conscious, self-aware, what part of us is receiving or perceiving that awareness?" And so the ideal of a soul is postulated. It doesn't exist in physical reality, but its difficult to get our heads round the idea that such a central, indivisible, indefinable entity might not actually exist, because it's such a convenient idea. Like the idea of the ether was convenient, and 'obvious.'

Just my two cents.

http://www.evilburnee.co.uk

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8. Comment #52641 by wilberforce.parry on June 27, 2007 at 3:32 pm

I see no reason for Descartes' point to lose its force. Surely any animal that thinks on any level "is", to a certain degree. I don't see why we have to presume that thought processes at a human level are necessary for this consciousness. Descartes was saying nothing about the idea of an eternal soul, all he was stating was an idea on proof for a personal existence.

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9. Comment #52644 by Snyds on June 27, 2007 at 3:42 pm

I find it amusing that the religious community has to backpedal every time that science calls into question their belief system. What is even more laughable, is that they create whatever it is they need to justify their position, no matter how ridiculous. The good news is that the more progressive believers are finding themselves with less wiggle room between belief and science, and since they seem to be unwilling to deny obvious facts, eventually, it seems, they will have to give up their faith. As for the fundamentalists, as the progressives move into our camp, the fundies will become more and more isolated, and therefore marginalised. I think we are on the right path, though, it seems that this will be a long journey.

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10. Comment #52646 by Dr Benway on June 27, 2007 at 3:55 pm

 avatarMany people must remember the delight of meeting some animal in early childhood. The animal warily looks at you; you at it. If all goes well, a friendship happens.

Doesn't it seem strange that our species has so long asserted consciousness is ours alone?

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11. Comment #52655 by steve99 on June 27, 2007 at 4:21 pm

 avatar
As biologists turn up evidence that animals can exhibit emotions and patterns of cognition once thought of as strictly human, Descartes's dictum, "I think, therefore I am," loses its force.


Talk about poor reasoning. This is in no way an argument against Descarte; it is simply an argument for allowing other animals to have an "I".

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12. Comment #52657 by jonecc on June 27, 2007 at 4:25 pm

wilberforce.parry:

I think they're just using Descartes' most famous aphorism as shorthand for his dualism. Descartes, like Aristotle, said that the universe was made up of two kinds of 'stuff', matter and mind.

The 20th century philosopher Gilbert Ryle famously argued in his book 'The Concept of Mind' that mind was simply a property of the matter that constitutes a brain. One might for instance compare the sentience of a brain to the 'whippiness' of an ice cream, and by that analogy asking where the mind 'goes' when the body dies is like asking where the whippiness goes when an ice cream is eaten and digested.

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13. Comment #52658 by DV82XL on June 27, 2007 at 4:28 pm

"As a scientist, I have nothing to say about the soul. It's not a scientific idea."

Amen

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14. Comment #52661 by Salvatore on June 27, 2007 at 4:43 pm

 avatarIf you got no soul and know it, you still got soul.

–– Charles Bukowski (approximate quote)

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15. Comment #52671 by Ben Kington on June 27, 2007 at 5:20 pm

I see that several people have already addressed it, but as a former philosophy enthusiast / current amateur philosopher I can't let the headline's denigration of the cogito stand. I once heard a professor call it "the only knock down, drag out argument in all of philosophy." If anyone here doesn't know, the basic gist is that you can doubt just about everything: are you /sure/ that right now you are really looking at a computer screen and not in "The Matrix?" Or that every time you try to figure out 1+1, the matrix manipulates your brain waves and makes you arrive at the wrong answer (2)? The point being that an evil God (or matrix) could fool you about anything you think you know, but only if there was something doing some thinking that could be fooled - you. So, whatever else I am (I can't speak for the rest of you Matrix-generated hallucinations,) I am a thinking thing.

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16. Comment #52702 by steveroot on June 27, 2007 at 8:18 pm

 avatar
15. Comment #52671 by Ben Kington on June 27, 2007 at 5:20 pm
...So, whatever else I am (I can't speak for the rest of you Matrix-generated hallucinations,) I am a thinking thing.

"No, you're not- you're magnetic ink."
:-)
Steve

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17. Comment #52710 by Gordon Brown on June 27, 2007 at 10:03 pm

A note to Ben Kington (No. 15):

No doubt Descartes' cogito, ergo sum appears to be a brilliant argument on its face. But the issues aren't quite so simple. Consider this:
Santa Claus delivers toys to millions of households within a span of a few hours. For one to be able to deliver toys to millions of households within just hours requires enormous logistical ability. To have logistical ability requires the ability to think. Accordingly, Santa Claus is a thinking thing. Therefore, Santa Claus exists.

Apart from that little difficulty, even if we give Descartes his "props" for the cogito, it's what he further deduces from the cogito that just falls to pieces. Not least of which is that he infers the existence of God through a lengthy chain of argument that is patently invalid.

Descartes was a great mathematician. Maybe in the top five of mathematicians; definitely in the top ten. But he should have kept his day job!

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18. Comment #52715 by apettway on June 27, 2007 at 10:37 pm

 avatar"As a scientist, I have nothing to say about the soul. It's not a scientific idea."

Not so fast.

The truth of the existence of a soul cannot be strictly off limits to scientific investigation. Only things that are outside of nature and HAVE NO EFFECTS on the natural world are out of the realm of science.

Things (if you can call them that) that have no manifestations in Nature might as well not exist.

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19. Comment #52717 by PsyPro on June 27, 2007 at 10:45 pm

 avatar
"Evolutionary biology shows the transition from animal to human to be too gradual to make sense of the idea that we humans have souls while animals do not," wrote Dr. Murphy, an ordained minister in the Church of the Brethren. "All the human capacities once attributed to the mind or soul are now being fruitfully studied as brain processes — or, more accurately, I should say, processes involving the brain, the rest of the nervous system and other bodily systems, all interacting with the socio-cultural world."


What does the assertion in the first sentence have to do with the claim of consciousness as brain processes? It is entirely possible, indeed likely, that if what one means by ``soul'' is reflective consciousness (as I think most of us mean at a minimum), it is a uniquely human trait. There is no a priori reason that any other non-human animal be conscious (``ensouled'') in this sense, nor does it deny evolution to asume humans are unique in this regard. Unless one assumes that there is some common ancestor of both humans and some (at least one) non-human species that was also conscious in this sense, then there is no reason to invoke evolution in this discussion of consciousness as the consequence of brain processes. They are independent claims. So, Descartes could have been correct about one (only humans have souls in this modern sense), but wrong about the other (dualism).

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20. Comment #52722 by epeeist on June 27, 2007 at 11:45 pm

 avatarComment #52671 by Ben Kington
If anyone here doesn't know, the basic gist is that you can doubt just about everything: are you /sure/ that right now you are really looking at a computer screen and not in "The Matrix?"

Just about everything for Descartes didn't include God though AFAIR.

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21. Comment #52723 by GBile on June 27, 2007 at 11:52 pm

The 'Made in His image' believers are by now floating in the air: all the legs of their favorite chair have been sawed off.

Let's welcome them with open arms when they eventually crash to the ground.

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22. Comment #52724 by Vardu on June 27, 2007 at 11:54 pm

If anybody thinks that emotions and consciousness are unique to human beings, they haven't been reading Frans de Vaal.

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23. Comment #52740 by rokort on June 28, 2007 at 1:12 am

 avatarVardu,

good to mention Frans de Waal (not Vaal, sorry). What he shows us a bout our ancestral kin is simply humbling. To my opinion it should shut up everybody that thinks humans are truly different from other animals.

Anyways, nice piece by Cornelia Dean, and hopefully this kind of news will seep through to mainstream media, but there's one thing that bugs me:

For scientists who are people of faith, like Kenneth R. Miller, a biologist at Brown University, asking about the science of the soul is pointless, in a way, because it is not a subject science can address. "It is not physical and investigateable in the world of science," he said.


If it were up to me i'd ask him to give back/up his PhD. As a scientist you should be extremely critical but nevertheless open-minded to alternative explanations. He's neither since he doesn't question what he "cannot" prove. People with these religious-based double standards are an insult to science.

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24. Comment #52744 by PaulEmecz on June 28, 2007 at 1:32 am

 avatarphil rimmer said:
Animals have some vestige of consciousness.

I'm not happy with 'some vestige' when we're talking about consciousness. Come on – you're conscious. Could you imagine having merely 'some vestige of consciousness'? What if we asked a non-human animal about this? Oh, of course, they could never comprehend the necessary concepts because they only have some vestige of consciousness…

Vardu said:
If anybody thinks that emotions and consciousness are unique to human beings, they haven't been reading Frans de Vaal.

No one here has said animals can't experience emotions. Consciousness is something very different, even to a behaviourist like de Waal. Unless I've totally misread de Waal, he is not claiming that animals are conscious. Instead, his position amounts to saying that humans are not. What he might say, according to my understanding of his writings, is that by human consciousness we mean certain behaviours, many of which are exhibited by our hairy cousins.

However, I am not a behaviourist, and I think that consciousness amounts to something very much more than a set of behaviours.

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25. Comment #52745 by tris on June 28, 2007 at 1:33 am

Have a look at this clip on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM). I find it interesting in the sense that the animals involved don't behave all that differently to how we might expect humans to behave.

Try assigning human equivalents to each of the groups of animals (races/religions/countries/social groups).

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26. Comment #52754 by Logicel on June 28, 2007 at 2:13 am

 avatarI think so, yes. I think all of our hominid ancestors were ensouled in some way, but that does not rule out the possibility that as evolution continues, the shape of the soul can vary just as it does from individual to individual.
____


How can an immaterial concept have a shape?

...cite the ideas of Thomas Aquinas, the 13th-century philosopher and theologian who, Dr. Haught said, "spoke of a vegetative and animal soul along with the human soul.
_______

Recently someone here chided my connecting spirituality with humans--I am one of those pesky non-supernatural spiritual atheists--by responding with cabbage spirituality, which made me laugh at the time, and it still triggering a few chuckles at present.

So will there be kitty cats of the female persuasion sporting burkas? Specially designed, low communion railings replete with wafers died green for rabbits? Purple robes and gilded circular running tracks for gerbils? Special and tax-free meeting places with lots of trellises for Ipomoea?

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27. Comment #52756 by MentalLentil on June 28, 2007 at 2:28 am

PaulEmecz wrote
So, we have a quality, consciousness, an awareness of our own experiences, which is found in humans. Humans evolved from animals that were not conscious. Therefore there's no essential difference between humans and non-human animals.

As long as you don't worry too much about the consciousness bit, it is all explicable by physical correlation.


You are making a big assumption here (that humans are the only "conscious" animals) as the basis for your argument. It would in fact seem most likely that there is a continuum of consciousness from humans down to the lower animals such as insects which probably have none.

The idea that animals were completely blank and that all of a sudden a light was switched on in humans would seem to be heavily inspired by religion and has little scientific merit.

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28. Comment #52765 by Beachbum on June 28, 2007 at 3:15 am

 avatarHumans were and are animals, there is NO difference at any level. If you think there is, I have some porpoises I would like to introduce you to.

I have often thought that the only difference between humans and animals was in the concept of deception. Since the discovery of an octopus that uses mimicry as a form of deception, I have had to let that one go.

I have spent most, no, the vast majority of my life in the wild both above and below the waterline. And I see the separation of humans and animals, at any level, as a vestige of religious divisional-ism.

The concept of a soul is akin to "Santa's Reindeer" a means by which a dead, decaying, carcass can be transported to "heaven". But what ever floats their ghost.

I think this is great news and I learned something I had overlooked in the reasons for the devotee's irrational rejection of evolution; their pedestals are getting hard to hold on to.

I know these are unsubstantiated personal observations and all this coming from a guy who just found out his cat is a Republican.

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29. Comment #52767 by NJS on June 28, 2007 at 3:31 am

I've always defined "the soul" as just a concept of our humanity and conciousness - evolved as much as the rest of us and obviously not immortal.

The article exposes why I think the religious are so afraid of evolution even more so than cosmology or other sciences which immediately challenge some of their concepts like the age of the earth. Central to all of them is this idea of humans as "special" and evolution has always destroyed this idea imo. Of course we are "more evolved" in some areas than most animals but as described above their are good scientific reasons for this.

Raising the questions of when Man became ensouled and whether animals have any similar claim has always been a powerful weapon in the armoury.

I know Theists like to claim that evolution and faith can be mutually acceptable but I've never seen any kind of argument on this that makes sense and in fact it makes less sense in context than Genesis literalists.

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30. Comment #52768 by Vaal on June 28, 2007 at 3:31 am

 avatarSo, consciousness is a function of the physical brain. Talk about a statement of the blindingly obvious.

Despite the arrogant nonsense spouted by the biblical brigade that "We are not animals", it is patently obvious that we ARE part of the animal kingdom. Mammals in fact, or perhaps we are insects or rocks?

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31. Comment #52774 by CJ22 on June 28, 2007 at 4:03 am

 avatarYou really do have to wonder why, instead of finding ever more elaborate and obscurantist ways of dodging round the issue, they don't just throw their hands up in the air and say "Okay, you got us, it's all crap..."

Give it up! For fucks's sake! Grow up!

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32. Comment #52788 by KRKBAB on June 28, 2007 at 4:53 am

At the end of the article, Dr Miller says- " As a scientist, I have nothing to say about the soul. It's not a scientific idea". No shit? That's the trouble with scientists who are also people of faith. That's always their pitiful reasoning. When people use the "You can't argue religion in a scientific context" bullshit, that's when I present them with my all time favourite C. Sagan quote: " Science is not perfect, but it's the best we have" (I hope I got it right). Amen. Until the faith-heads come up with a VIABLE better method than the scientific one, all their arguments are, at best, postulation, and at worst (which is usually the case) nothing but vain fiction. The logic that faith-heads use to counter new evidence by science to continue to justify their preposterous claims are not only ridiculous, but also very PREDICTABLE and often very humorous! It's sad to see so very often in my country (USA) perfectly intelligent, rational people stubbornly coming up with their defences whenever science renders their views as false.

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33. Comment #52789 by KRKBAB on June 28, 2007 at 4:53 am

At the end of the article, Dr Miller says- " As a scientist, I have nothing to say about the soul. It's not a scientific idea". No shit? That's the trouble with scientists who are also people of faith. That's always their pitiful reasoning. When people use the "You can't argue religion in a scientific context" bullshit, that's when I present them with my all time favourite C. Sagan quote: " Science is not perfect, but it's the best we have" (I hope I got it right). Amen. Until the faith-heads come up with a VIABLE better method than the scientific one, all their arguments are, at best, postulation, and at worst (which is usually the case) nothing but vain fiction. The logic that faith-heads use to counter new evidence by science to continue to justify their preposterous claims are not only ridiculous, but also very PREDICTABLE and often very humorous! It's sad to see so very often in my country (USA) perfectly intelligent, rational people stubbornly coming up with their defences whenever science renders their views as false.

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34. Comment #52790 by mrjonno on June 28, 2007 at 4:59 am

Awareness/consciousness deterioriates when the brain suffers injury or illness (fact?)

From this I postulate awareness/consciousness/soul? is a purely physical thing and when the brain ceases to exist so do you.

Is there anything wrong in that line of thinking , scientfic or religious comments welcome

Other Comments by mrjonno

35. Comment #52796 by LookToWindward on June 28, 2007 at 5:26 am

Ah yes, that squeezing sound as God is shifted to fit an ever-smaller gap. I applaud these religious scientists for favouring the evidence over dogma, but one can't help but wonder what they're clinging on for? If they've got the intelligence to realise the unity of mind and brain, then they must also have surmised that God patently isn't anything that takes any interest in us, so what's the point? Give it up, and be all the happier for it.

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36. Comment #52797 by bluebird on June 28, 2007 at 5:26 am

 avatarOur teenage sons know that the idea of a soul is complete blatherskite!!

One son wrote on a school project "I have no soul"; the teacher crossed it out and wrote "yes you do". Aaaarrrgghhh.

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37. Comment #52800 by Russell Blackford on June 28, 2007 at 5:30 am

I can't express adequately how much I HATE that expression "people of faith", as if religionists are analogous to "people of colour" in having to put up with hostility, oppression, and the legacy of historical injustices. Nothing could be more opposite to the truth. My one-person campaign against the expression isn't making much headway, but I'll continue to whine about it whenever I can.

Hmmm, I don't think it's true that secular philosophical thinking fails to keep up with the developments in neurological, etc., science. It would be more true to say that some philosophers resist what appear to be the obvious implications ... but they are all well aware of them, in my experience.

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38. Comment #52803 by elvenearth on June 28, 2007 at 5:39 am

8. Comment #52641 by wilberforce.parry on June 27, 2007 at 3:32 pm
I see no reason for Descartes' point to lose its force. Surely any animal that thinks on any level "is", to a certain degree. I don't see why we have to presume that thought processes at a human level are necessary for this consciousness. Descartes was saying nothing about the idea of an eternal soul, all he was stating was an idea on proof for a personal existence.


Just what I was thinking. Descartes was suggesting , "Thinking, therefore I am". In otherwords even if everything else is an illusion, we know that we have existence as something that can think. If we are deceived, there is something that must be deceived.

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39. Comment #52804 by Russell Blackford on June 28, 2007 at 5:45 am

One other general observation: While it's true that some philosophers continue to defend some kind of mind-body dualism, the substance dualism of Descartes is a very unpopular position indeed within philosophy departments, and I'd have assumed everywhere else. I'm often amazed, reading this site, to see how much ideas that I thought were pretty much abandoned by intelligent people decades ago are still being defended, usually by American religionists or the Vatican. It's an eye-opener - keep up the good job, all those who collect this material. But it's also terribly disheartening to see how much the scientific worldview has not prevailed since, say, 30 or 40 years ago.

I mean, really, why has the article that starts this thread even needed to be written? One might have been forgiven for thinking that the existence of an immaterial soul was such a non-starter in serious debate that there's really nothing to write about. But obviously not.

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40. Comment #52805 by Mercurius on June 28, 2007 at 5:46 am

 avatarFurther to Bluebird's comment on schoolteachers, my five year old niece is learning sign language at school at the moment. She was showing me her newly learnt skill when she suddenly came up with 'God is good to me'. It is very difficult when your own country's education system is undermining your efforts to raise free thinkers.

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41. Comment #52807 by Russell Blackford on June 28, 2007 at 5:57 am

Re the cogito, it's true that even if I am, at this instant, being deceived by a powerful, malevolent demon, I must exist for this instant. However, that says nothing about whether I existed in the past, whether I will continue to exist for more than a moment, whether I am anything like how I appear to myself, etc. So the cognito does not get us far.

To get further, Descartes had to prove the existence of an all-powerful and truthful God. His whole philosophical system depends on this. He tries to prove the existence of this being based on such things as a version of the ontological argument and an odd argument (to modern eyes) to the effect that he has the idea of such a being, and that such an idea could only have been caused by the being itself.

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42. Comment #52811 by Vaal on June 28, 2007 at 6:04 am

 avatarI have no doubt that my cat shows more consciousness than my lodger!

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43. Comment #52819 by Nefrubyr on June 28, 2007 at 6:14 am

 avatar24. Comment #52744 by PaulEmecz on June 28, 2007 at 1:32 am
I'm not happy with 'some vestige' when we're talking about consciousness. Come on – you're conscious. Could you imagine having merely 'some vestige of consciousness'?

Have you never been staggeringly drunk? Or even half awake? I know I've been in states I wouldn't describe as fully conscious, when I couldn't string two thoughts together. I imagine being a dog or a chimp must be something like that - able to experience feelings and needs, but not so intelligent as to make much sense of them.

That said, I also object to the word "vestige" but only because of the connotation that it's a leftover of something no longer useful. What we're discussing is really an underdeveloped consciousness.

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44. Comment #52827 by Nefrubyr on June 28, 2007 at 6:33 am

 avatar17. Comment #52710 by Gordon Brown on June 27, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Santa Claus delivers toys to millions of households within a span of a few hours. For one to be able to deliver toys to millions of households within just hours requires enormous logistical ability. To have logistical ability requires the ability to think. Accordingly, Santa Claus is a thinking thing. Therefore, Santa Claus exists.

It's "I think, therefore I am", not "That which appears to think therefore must be". It just means that while you might be an illusion, I am definitely here thinking. It's solipsism in one snappy statement.

Also, "to have logistical ability requires the ability to think" is pretty dubious. My cardiovascular system shows great logistical ability when it delivers just the right amount of oxygen-loaded blood to where it's needed, but I'd never credit it with thinking. It's just what it does. The appearance of logistical skill doesn't imply a thinking director any more than the appearance of complex design requires a designer.

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45. Comment #52829 by PaulEmecz on June 28, 2007 at 6:39 am

 avatar
Humans were and are animals, there is NO difference at any level.


Beachbum, you can't really be serious! There are vast differences between humans and non-human animals. Should I ask the human animals on this thread to identify themselves as such? I am of course sticking my neck out here, because I'll look such a fool if Beachbum turns out to be a non-human animal...

mrjonno, you said:

Awareness/consciousness deterioriates when the brain suffers injury or illness (fact?)

From this I postulate awareness/consciousness/soul? is a purely physical thing and when the brain ceases to exist so do you.


I can see a flaw. If you watch a demolition derby, you'll see that as the cars progress and become more battered and dented, they slow down, the lights don't work properly etc. Could you argue therefore that there is nothing more than nuts and bolts there, and that when the car is too damaged to be able to continue, there is nothing left at all? The driver is still there. Would it be any different if it was the smaller and frankly less entertaining remote-controlled demolition derby? This is not an argument that shows there is a soul, but I think it is a counter-argument to yours. Your argument doesn't show that we don't have a non-physical aspect to us.

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46. Comment #52858 by bamboospitfire on June 28, 2007 at 8:51 am

 avatarNefrubyr - I had assumed that Gordon Brown was joking. Unless the poster is in fact the UK's new PM, in which case that sort of circular clap-trap is to be expected.

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47. Comment #52859 by maton100 on June 28, 2007 at 8:53 am

 avatarTreating "soul" as a real term assumes that is exists. One must prove that it exists before speculation on "what it does" can occur. This is a bogus term and why anyone takes it seriously is beyond me.

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48. Comment #52867 by Nefrubyr on June 28, 2007 at 9:53 am

 avatarbamboospitfire - quite possibly. I just can't stop myself tearing apart a bad argument.

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49. Comment #52885 by kaiserkriss on June 28, 2007 at 11:44 am

 avatarRussell Blackford wrote" I can't express adequately how much I HATE that expression "people of faith", as if religionists are analogous to "people of colour" in having to put up with hostility, oppression, and the legacy of historical injustices. Nothing could be more opposite to the truth. My one-person campaign against the expression isn't making much headway, but I'll continue to whine about it whenever I can"

I understand your "pain" to the fullest. Some expressions I hate just as much are the terms "Vandals, Vandalized" or similar absolutely racist expressions, quite common in the acceptable English language. (Whop, jewed also come to mind).

Just because the Vandals "sacked" Rome, makes them no worse or better than a Ghengis Khan, Attila, Hannibal, Charlemagne or other "tribe" that conquered other tribes in the past. Why pick on the Vandals when they cannot even defend themselves any more?

For thinking individuals, this type of language is just as irrational as scientists still believing in bronze age campfire stories.jcw

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50. Comment #52900 by Bonzai on June 28, 2007 at 12:46 pm

The soul, though intuitively appealing, is not a well formulated concept.

We experience an inner world which seems to be in some sense separated from the external, physical world. Consciousness has an apparently disembodied quality to it. It is difficult for most of us to visualize the non existence of our own consciousness.We can imagine missing an arm or a leg, but it is a lot harder to imagine the absence of the very subject who imagines. The speculation of an immortal soul is natural for beings like us, who experience self consciousness and an inner life.

But on closer examinations, it is actually even harder to imagine a disembodied soul given what we know about neurology, mental illness and the effects of drugs.

"Consciousness' is a fairly slippery concept to pin down. But those attributes of consciousness that uniquely define who we are as individuals are a lot easier to track.

Identity and person hood are not determined by "pure consciousness" but rather concrete categories such as memory, perceptions of self and others and personality. Our experience of "self" can be altered drastically as a result of brain injuries, drug use, change in hormonal patterns and other ways of modifying the physical state of the body.

So even without any deep understanding about the mystery of consciousness, we do know that our identity and our subjective sense of person hood are determined by those aspects of consciousness that are inextricably tied to physiology.

Thus, when the body perishes, the qualities that define us as individuals will die with it because they are demonstratably functions of physiological states.

So, even if the "soul" does live on, it would have to be some kind of "pure consciousness" completely without content. Also it cannot be tagged to a particular individual because "person hood' dies with the body.

What is a mind without thought, perceptions and memory? What is a soul without personality, temperament and feeling?

What is left as the 'soul" when all the content of consciousness which defines the person is emptied out?

I cannot conceive of such an entity.

Comment #52829 by PaulEmecz is probably correct that we can't prove conclusively that we don't have a non physical aspect.But I would like to hear a possible description of this non physical residue,--assuming it exists for the sake of argument,-- when all the physical aspects of consciousness are subtracted away.



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