









Science of the Soul? 'I Think, Therefore I Am' Is Losing Force2. Comment #52631 by mmurray on June 27, 2007 at 2:55 pm
"However, if you regard the soul as something else, as you might, say, the spiritual reflection of your individuality as a human being, then the theology of the soul it seems to me is on firm ground."
3. Comment #52632 by Alkal on June 27, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Why are the Republican Presidential hopefuls considered "intelligent" that their non-belief in evolution is s discussed.4. Comment #52633 by phil rimmer on June 27, 2007 at 3:07 pm
5. Comment #52635 by OhioAtheist on June 27, 2007 at 3:08 pm
There is no credible scientific challenge to the theory of evolution as an explanation for the diversity and complexity of life on earth.
6. Comment #52636 by roach on June 27, 2007 at 3:11 pm
This article saddened and frustrated me. But not because it highlights that there is no good reason to think we humans have souls.7. Comment #52640 by PaulJ on June 27, 2007 at 3:15 pm
For scientists who are people of faith, like Kenneth R. Miller, a biologist at Brown University, asking about the science of the soul is pointless, in a way, because it is not a subject science can address. "It is not physical and investigateable in the world of science," he said.The soul is an idea -- and no more than that. Like consciousness and self-awareness, the soul is a manifestation of complex thought processes. The soul as 'an actual thing' doesn't exist. As Kenneth R. Miller says above, it's not physical, in the same way that stereoscopic vision isn't physical. Three-dimensional visual perception is a manifestation of perceptive pattern-recognition. We see a solid object, and our other perceptive experiences confirm the solidity of the object seen. But its solidity is an illusion created by our cognitive framework. We don't see in 3D -- we actually receive two slightly different images, and our perceptive acuity interprets these differences as solidity.
8. Comment #52641 by wilberforce.parry on June 27, 2007 at 3:32 pm
I see no reason for Descartes' point to lose its force. Surely any animal that thinks on any level "is", to a certain degree. I don't see why we have to presume that thought processes at a human level are necessary for this consciousness. Descartes was saying nothing about the idea of an eternal soul, all he was stating was an idea on proof for a personal existence.9. Comment #52644 by Snyds on June 27, 2007 at 3:42 pm
I find it amusing that the religious community has to backpedal every time that science calls into question their belief system. What is even more laughable, is that they create whatever it is they need to justify their position, no matter how ridiculous. The good news is that the more progressive believers are finding themselves with less wiggle room between belief and science, and since they seem to be unwilling to deny obvious facts, eventually, it seems, they will have to give up their faith. As for the fundamentalists, as the progressives move into our camp, the fundies will become more and more isolated, and therefore marginalised. I think we are on the right path, though, it seems that this will be a long journey.10. Comment #52646 by Dr Benway on June 27, 2007 at 3:55 pm
11. Comment #52655 by steve99 on June 27, 2007 at 4:21 pm
As biologists turn up evidence that animals can exhibit emotions and patterns of cognition once thought of as strictly human, Descartes's dictum, "I think, therefore I am," loses its force.
12. Comment #52657 by jonecc on June 27, 2007 at 4:25 pm
wilberforce.parry:13. Comment #52658 by DV82XL on June 27, 2007 at 4:28 pm
"As a scientist, I have nothing to say about the soul. It's not a scientific idea."14. Comment #52661 by Salvatore on June 27, 2007 at 4:43 pm
15. Comment #52671 by Ben Kington on June 27, 2007 at 5:20 pm
I see that several people have already addressed it, but as a former philosophy enthusiast / current amateur philosopher I can't let the headline's denigration of the cogito stand. I once heard a professor call it "the only knock down, drag out argument in all of philosophy." If anyone here doesn't know, the basic gist is that you can doubt just about everything: are you /sure/ that right now you are really looking at a computer screen and not in "The Matrix?" Or that every time you try to figure out 1+1, the matrix manipulates your brain waves and makes you arrive at the wrong answer (2)? The point being that an evil God (or matrix) could fool you about anything you think you know, but only if there was something doing some thinking that could be fooled - you. So, whatever else I am (I can't speak for the rest of you Matrix-generated hallucinations,) I am a thinking thing.16. Comment #52702 by steveroot on June 27, 2007 at 8:18 pm
15. Comment #52671 by Ben Kington on June 27, 2007 at 5:20 pm
...So, whatever else I am (I can't speak for the rest of you Matrix-generated hallucinations,) I am a thinking thing.
17. Comment #52710 by Gordon Brown on June 27, 2007 at 10:03 pm
A note to Ben Kington (No. 15):Santa Claus delivers toys to millions of households within a span of a few hours. For one to be able to deliver toys to millions of households within just hours requires enormous logistical ability. To have logistical ability requires the ability to think. Accordingly, Santa Claus is a thinking thing. Therefore, Santa Claus exists.
18. Comment #52715 by apettway on June 27, 2007 at 10:37 pm
19. Comment #52717 by PsyPro on June 27, 2007 at 10:45 pm
"Evolutionary biology shows the transition from animal to human to be too gradual to make sense of the idea that we humans have souls while animals do not," wrote Dr. Murphy, an ordained minister in the Church of the Brethren. "All the human capacities once attributed to the mind or soul are now being fruitfully studied as brain processes — or, more accurately, I should say, processes involving the brain, the rest of the nervous system and other bodily systems, all interacting with the socio-cultural world."
20. Comment #52722 by epeeist on June 27, 2007 at 11:45 pm
If anyone here doesn't know, the basic gist is that you can doubt just about everything: are you /sure/ that right now you are really looking at a computer screen and not in "The Matrix?"
21. Comment #52723 by GBile on June 27, 2007 at 11:52 pm
The 'Made in His image' believers are by now floating in the air: all the legs of their favorite chair have been sawed off.22. Comment #52724 by Vardu on June 27, 2007 at 11:54 pm
If anybody thinks that emotions and consciousness are unique to human beings, they haven't been reading Frans de Vaal.23. Comment #52740 by rokort on June 28, 2007 at 1:12 am
For scientists who are people of faith, like Kenneth R. Miller, a biologist at Brown University, asking about the science of the soul is pointless, in a way, because it is not a subject science can address. "It is not physical and investigateable in the world of science," he said.
24. Comment #52744 by PaulEmecz on June 28, 2007 at 1:32 am
Animals have some vestige of consciousness.
If anybody thinks that emotions and consciousness are unique to human beings, they haven't been reading Frans de Vaal.
25. Comment #52745 by tris on June 28, 2007 at 1:33 am
Have a look at this clip on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM). I find it interesting in the sense that the animals involved don't behave all that differently to how we might expect humans to behave.26. Comment #52754 by Logicel on June 28, 2007 at 2:13 am
27. Comment #52756 by MentalLentil on June 28, 2007 at 2:28 am
PaulEmecz wroteSo, we have a quality, consciousness, an awareness of our own experiences, which is found in humans. Humans evolved from animals that were not conscious. Therefore there's no essential difference between humans and non-human animals.
As long as you don't worry too much about the consciousness bit, it is all explicable by physical correlation.
28. Comment #52765 by Beachbum on June 28, 2007 at 3:15 am
29. Comment #52767 by NJS on June 28, 2007 at 3:31 am
I've always defined "the soul" as just a concept of our humanity and conciousness - evolved as much as the rest of us and obviously not immortal.30. Comment #52768 by Vaal on June 28, 2007 at 3:31 am
31. Comment #52774 by CJ22 on June 28, 2007 at 4:03 am
32. Comment #52788 by KRKBAB on June 28, 2007 at 4:53 am
At the end of the article, Dr Miller says- " As a scientist, I have nothing to say about the soul. It's not a scientific idea". No shit? That's the trouble with scientists who are also people of faith. That's always their pitiful reasoning. When people use the "You can't argue religion in a scientific context" bullshit, that's when I present them with my all time favourite C. Sagan quote: " Science is not perfect, but it's the best we have" (I hope I got it right). Amen. Until the faith-heads come up with a VIABLE better method than the scientific one, all their arguments are, at best, postulation, and at worst (which is usually the case) nothing but vain fiction. The logic that faith-heads use to counter new evidence by science to continue to justify their preposterous claims are not only ridiculous, but also very PREDICTABLE and often very humorous! It's sad to see so very often in my country (USA) perfectly intelligent, rational people stubbornly coming up with their defences whenever science renders their views as false.33. Comment #52789 by KRKBAB on June 28, 2007 at 4:53 am
At the end of the article, Dr Miller says- " As a scientist, I have nothing to say about the soul. It's not a scientific idea". No shit? That's the trouble with scientists who are also people of faith. That's always their pitiful reasoning. When people use the "You can't argue religion in a scientific context" bullshit, that's when I present them with my all time favourite C. Sagan quote: " Science is not perfect, but it's the best we have" (I hope I got it right). Amen. Until the faith-heads come up with a VIABLE better method than the scientific one, all their arguments are, at best, postulation, and at worst (which is usually the case) nothing but vain fiction. The logic that faith-heads use to counter new evidence by science to continue to justify their preposterous claims are not only ridiculous, but also very PREDICTABLE and often very humorous! It's sad to see so very often in my country (USA) perfectly intelligent, rational people stubbornly coming up with their defences whenever science renders their views as false.34. Comment #52790 by mrjonno on June 28, 2007 at 4:59 am
Awareness/consciousness deterioriates when the brain suffers injury or illness (fact?)35. Comment #52796 by LookToWindward on June 28, 2007 at 5:26 am
Ah yes, that squeezing sound as God is shifted to fit an ever-smaller gap. I applaud these religious scientists for favouring the evidence over dogma, but one can't help but wonder what they're clinging on for? If they've got the intelligence to realise the unity of mind and brain, then they must also have surmised that God patently isn't anything that takes any interest in us, so what's the point? Give it up, and be all the happier for it.36. Comment #52797 by bluebird on June 28, 2007 at 5:26 am
37. Comment #52800 by Russell Blackford on June 28, 2007 at 5:30 am
I can't express adequately how much I HATE that expression "people of faith", as if religionists are analogous to "people of colour" in having to put up with hostility, oppression, and the legacy of historical injustices. Nothing could be more opposite to the truth. My one-person campaign against the expression isn't making much headway, but I'll continue to whine about it whenever I can.38. Comment #52803 by elvenearth on June 28, 2007 at 5:39 am
8. Comment #52641 by wilberforce.parry on June 27, 2007 at 3:32 pm39. Comment #52804 by Russell Blackford on June 28, 2007 at 5:45 am
One other general observation: While it's true that some philosophers continue to defend some kind of mind-body dualism, the substance dualism of Descartes is a very unpopular position indeed within philosophy departments, and I'd have assumed everywhere else. I'm often amazed, reading this site, to see how much ideas that I thought were pretty much abandoned by intelligent people decades ago are still being defended, usually by American religionists or the Vatican. It's an eye-opener - keep up the good job, all those who collect this material. But it's also terribly disheartening to see how much the scientific worldview has not prevailed since, say, 30 or 40 years ago.40. Comment #52805 by Mercurius on June 28, 2007 at 5:46 am
41. Comment #52807 by Russell Blackford on June 28, 2007 at 5:57 am
Re the cogito, it's true that even if I am, at this instant, being deceived by a powerful, malevolent demon, I must exist for this instant. However, that says nothing about whether I existed in the past, whether I will continue to exist for more than a moment, whether I am anything like how I appear to myself, etc. So the cognito does not get us far.42. Comment #52811 by Vaal on June 28, 2007 at 6:04 am
43. Comment #52819 by Nefrubyr on June 28, 2007 at 6:14 am
I'm not happy with 'some vestige' when we're talking about consciousness. Come on – you're conscious. Could you imagine having merely 'some vestige of consciousness'?
44. Comment #52827 by Nefrubyr on June 28, 2007 at 6:33 am
Santa Claus delivers toys to millions of households within a span of a few hours. For one to be able to deliver toys to millions of households within just hours requires enormous logistical ability. To have logistical ability requires the ability to think. Accordingly, Santa Claus is a thinking thing. Therefore, Santa Claus exists.
45. Comment #52829 by PaulEmecz on June 28, 2007 at 6:39 am
Humans were and are animals, there is NO difference at any level.
Awareness/consciousness deterioriates when the brain suffers injury or illness (fact?)
From this I postulate awareness/consciousness/soul? is a purely physical thing and when the brain ceases to exist so do you.
46. Comment #52858 by bamboospitfire on June 28, 2007 at 8:51 am
47. Comment #52859 by maton100 on June 28, 2007 at 8:53 am
48. Comment #52867 by Nefrubyr on June 28, 2007 at 9:53 am
49. Comment #52885 by kaiserkriss on June 28, 2007 at 11:44 am
50. Comment #52900 by Bonzai on June 28, 2007 at 12:46 pm
The soul, though intuitively appealing, is not a well formulated concept.Send a letter to the editor of the original media outlet.
letters@nytimes.com
1. Comment #52625 by PaulEmecz on June 27, 2007 at 2:41 pm
So, we have a quality, consciousness, an awareness of our own experiences, which is found in humans. Humans evolved from animals that were not conscious. Therefore there's no essential difference between humans and non-human animals.
As long as you don't worry too much about the consciousness bit, it is all explicable by physical correlation.
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