









At a Theater Near You ...2. Comment #53923 by Cool on Oolon on July 4, 2007 at 8:20 am
To be fair, condemnation is coming in from some British muslim leaders:3. Comment #53924 by Duff on July 4, 2007 at 8:28 am
Condemnation from a few English Muslims is hardly sufficient to change the Muslim world. The real question is whether or not there are leading Muslims in the Muslim world who have the courage and the wisdom to step forward and say, "No one did this to us, we have humiliated ourselves. We used to be one of the most advanced cultures in the world and now we are pariahs, making fools of ourselves and our religion. It's time to get out of the 12th century and get real or we will be left so far behind we will be the enemy of the entire world."4. Comment #53925 by HelloLOL on July 4, 2007 at 8:29 am
Man, this is crazy, huh?5. Comment #53927 by Dunc-uk on July 4, 2007 at 8:45 am
6. Comment #53929 by Mango on July 4, 2007 at 8:50 am
7. Comment #53930 by geckoman on July 4, 2007 at 8:56 am
Duff is on the money.8. Comment #53932 by geckoman on July 4, 2007 at 9:08 am
And another thing!9. Comment #53933 by Dunc-uk on July 4, 2007 at 9:14 am
10. Comment #53934 by eye of horus on July 4, 2007 at 9:14 am
** Look upon U.S. you mighty, and despair **11. Comment #53936 by Pieter on July 4, 2007 at 9:16 am
The real problem for islamic moderates is that there really aren't that many out there. Of the 1.2 billion muslims that supposedly exist how many are older than 25 years? How many are literate? How many are educated? How many can we say form this elite core of muslim intelligentsia that holds sway over their co-religionists? And how many of these men are not the hate spewing university educated wahhabi funded salafist mullahs?12. Comment #53938 by bitbutter on July 4, 2007 at 9:34 am
13. Comment #53941 by jonecc on July 4, 2007 at 10:02 am
There's been an interesting debate at the Guardian website here.14. Comment #53942 by Shrunk on July 4, 2007 at 10:04 am
15. Comment #53943 by Moebius on July 4, 2007 at 10:09 am
I've been among the "New Atheists" long before the term was even developed and eagerly read Harris, Dawkins and Hitchens as soon as their books were released. I agree that the tactic of suicide bombing is specific to Muslim fanatics (not counting Kamikaze pilots of WWII) and that the ideology of political Islam is as absurd and dangerous as political Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.16. Comment #53944 by howtoplayalone on July 4, 2007 at 10:15 am
17. Comment #53945 by geckoman on July 4, 2007 at 10:17 am
jonecc18. Comment #53946 by Serious on July 4, 2007 at 10:20 am
but has muslim *religious* leaders (as opposed to "community leaders") in the UK or elsewhere condemned the attacks?19. Comment #53947 by jonecc on July 4, 2007 at 10:39 am
Geckoman20. Comment #53949 by howtoplayalone on July 4, 2007 at 10:41 am
21. Comment #53952 by Bonzai on July 4, 2007 at 11:05 am
What is a "moderate muslim"? It seems that the official line considers any Muslim who doesn't openly call for terrorism and violence as a moderate. Never mind he may hold truly repugnant ideas about women, non muslims and gays. A muslim can be more exterme than the late Jerry Falwell and still be a 'moderate' as long as he is not a jihadist. Based on this concept of moderation Josef Qarawadi is considered a great liberal by Ken Livingstone and he is probably correct.22. Comment #53953 by pewkatchoo on July 4, 2007 at 11:06 am
23. Comment #53955 by pewkatchoo on July 4, 2007 at 11:11 am
24. Comment #53957 by gordon on July 4, 2007 at 11:39 am
25. Comment #53962 by Salvatore on July 4, 2007 at 12:50 pm
26. Comment #53965 by Bonzai on July 4, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Not all terrorists are motivated by the same reasons.27. Comment #53970 by Bremas on July 4, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Just want to second the link put up by jonecc (post 13).28. Comment #53972 by Vinelectric on July 4, 2007 at 1:51 pm
29. Comment #53977 by Dr Benway on July 4, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Problem is that the same Islamic ideology motivates others to charity and other humane activities.True. Debate over the good vs. evil done in the name of religion may lead nowhere.
30. Comment #53980 by Johnny O on July 4, 2007 at 3:29 pm
31. Comment #53982 by Ivan The Not So Bad on July 4, 2007 at 3:46 pm
The reason we are living "more prosperously, powerfully and dynamically than thoe living under Islam" is because Western society (for want of a better term) has crossed the rubicon that was the Enlightenment and as a result has been able to develop a model of society based on the core democratic values of social and economic liberalism with all the freedoms and prosperity this brings.32. Comment #53992 by tieInterceptor on July 4, 2007 at 5:47 pm
33. Comment #53994 by Shuggy on July 4, 2007 at 7:36 pm
but has muslim *religious* leaders (as opposed to "community leaders") in the UK or elsewhere condemned the attacks?I don't understand Muslim leadership. It seems as though Muftis and Imams and Ayatollahs are all autonomous and can interpret the Qu'ran how they like - unlike ordinary Muslims. Now if they were Roman Catholic Jihadis, we'd know Whose Holiness to blame. Judaism seems to have the same non-hierarchy, but they've never been so disunited. I don't get it.
I think not.
34. Comment #54006 by Big T on July 4, 2007 at 10:58 pm
9/11 and 7/7 were wake-up calls. The terrorists will not win. The most dedicated terrorists are probably dead or in hiding/on the run, etc. Gun control in Europe no doubt also helps greatly. In America, the land of my birth and where I'll always live, any idiot can get a firearm and ammunition. If you have to build a bomb from scratch, it's harder to kill people than if you can buy firearms and ammo easily. Anyway, despair is not called for. We in the (relatively) secular and civilized West are winning. And if the terrorists continue to make trouble, John Smeaton will "get about" them.35. Comment #54015 by pewkatchoo on July 5, 2007 at 12:48 am
36. Comment #54027 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 5, 2007 at 2:31 am
>>I don't understand Muslim leadership. It seems as though Muftis and Imams and Ayatollahs are all autonomous and can interpret the Qu'ran how they like - unlike ordinary Muslims<<37. Comment #54040 by Philip1978 on July 5, 2007 at 4:17 am
38. Comment #54053 by j s bach on July 5, 2007 at 5:54 am
39. Comment #54057 by konquererz on July 5, 2007 at 6:16 am
40. Comment #54082 by Johnny O on July 5, 2007 at 8:53 am
41. Comment #54104 by captain underpants on July 5, 2007 at 11:33 am
42. Comment #54107 by Bonzai on July 5, 2007 at 11:39 am
js bach wrote;I just haven't seen a moderate Muslim
43. Comment #54109 by pewkatchoo on July 5, 2007 at 11:48 am
Actually there are many cultural muslims who don't really care a whole lot about religion. They are the true moderates. As with the case with all religions, the true moderates are those don't really care and they are the majority.
44. Comment #54111 by Bonzai on July 5, 2007 at 12:01 pm
pewkatchoo,45. Comment #54117 by L.Minnik on July 5, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Just for the record: I have met a couple of muslims who did try to change things, have stood up against the dictates of their theistic governments, and are now living in Europe under different names and with a death sentence if they would ever go back. Don't expect them to publicly react to what is happening now - it's dangerous for them.46. Comment #54119 by HappyPrimate on July 5, 2007 at 12:42 pm
47. Comment #54120 by Bonzai on July 5, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Here is a "progressive muslim" site. You may find something unexpected there.48. Comment #54131 by Goldy on July 5, 2007 at 1:57 pm
I worked in Syria for about 8 months. Lots of very irreligious men of Muslim faith there (can't really call them Muslim as they didn't follow it). At a Christmas party, one of my co-workers, Daoud, tucked into the roast pig we had managed to get, washing it down with Heineken brought in from Turkey (Al Shark beer, the local brew, was not really worth drinking). We pointed out the un-Islamic nature of his feeding, to which he replied "Yes, I am not a good Muslim", popping another piece of pork into his mouth and grinning. Turkey is also awash with Muslims who are, well, totally unislamic.49. Comment #54253 by logical on July 6, 2007 at 6:45 am
50. Comment #54279 by hightrekker on July 6, 2007 at 8:56 am
Well Tom, maybe the World is Round after all------Send a letter to the editor of the original media outlet.
letters@nytimes.com
1. Comment #53922 by tieInterceptor on July 4, 2007 at 8:11 am
the Muslim fear of liberated women seems so childishly man-baby attitude that it would be lol funny if it didn't enslave women by the millions.
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