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Saturday, July 7, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Won't anyone stand up for God?

by Daily Mail

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=466794&in_page_id=1879

Atheists are on the march. The idea of God is under fire. The practice of religion is being condemned as a major source of evil in the world. The latest assault comes in a book entitled God Is Not Great by polemical writer Christopher Hitchens.

The work, subtitled The Case Against Religion, is already on the bestseller list of The New York Times. It arrives hot on the heels of The God Delusion, another bestseller from Professor Richard Dawkins. Both authors are militant atheists who want to destroy the faith of believers.

Dawkins expressed the hope that 'religious readers who open this book will be atheists when they put it down'. Hitchens states boldly: 'Religion is man-made. Religion poisons everything.'

Of course, it is not difficult to convince us that religions can generate evil and violence, confronted as we are by the threats of Islamist Jihadist terrorists who wish to destroy the West. In the other extreme, we see American fundamentalists who eagerly await Armageddon and the eternal fire that will consume everyone but themselves.

Both authors have a field day pointing out the intolerance, savagery and barbarities that have been sanctioned by Church or Mosque through history - the wars of religion, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the hangings and burnings of heretics and witches and even of those who merely dissented. Religion all too easily gives rise to violence, as testified by the recent history of Northern Ireland.

It is true that churches have often aided and abetted tyrannical regimes and repeatedly tried to suppress freedom of thought and scientific inquiry. In much of the world they still oppose birth control or stem cell research. All this illustrates man's propensity to behave with a fanaticism that is neither Christian nor Islamic teaching. But not only religion has done this.

Just as much carnage has been committed for the sake of nationalism or racism. And atheism: the Nazi and Stalinist regimes, both atheist, were responsible for murder on an even greater scale. It is a mistake to attribute to religion itself the behaviour of some of its extremist adherents.

All this denouncing leaves unspoken the vast amount of good done from religious motives, including the private deeds of generosity and self-sacrifice which are never reported.

The next prong of the attack is on the Scriptures. Hitchens is a far better informed critic than Dawkins, whose book declines in places into near-hysterical propaganda.

The Old Testament is easy meat for destructive criticism. It contains the largely invented stories that sustained a primitive, hard-pressed nomadic tribe whose God Dawkins describes as 'a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak'.

Just for good measure he adds: 'A misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal megalomaniac and capriciously malevolent bully.' Does he think anyone believes in a God like that today?

It is not difficult to show the absurdities of the Old Testament myths: Genesis, for example, where Adam, having been created by God hungry for knowledge, is then banished for trying to obtain it.

The stories in Genesis and Exodus, like Jehovah's obliging parting of the Red Sea and stopping of the sun in its tracks to enable the Israelites to complete some slaughter, are read nowadays by most thoughtful people as the myths they clearly are.

Myth-making is as old as man and inevitably also enters into the New Testament in such stories as the Annunciation and the Nativity, both of which are noticeably absent from two of the Gospels (the earliest, Mark, and the most sophisticated, John).

Hitchens is well aware of current New Testament scholarship which acknowledges that the canon of 'authentic books', which was fixed after nearly three centuries of argument, is a man-made selection of much modified texts.

They were based on other texts that have been lost, which in turn depended on oral traditions which are not verifiable.

Thinking Christians would no more take every word of either Testament literally than they would offer up burnt offerings or take their moral teaching from Deuteronomy and stone adulterers to death.

But Hitchens and Dawkins fulminate as though every believer has to accept wildly improbably episodes as 'gospel' along with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, which are the heart of the matter.

Their indignant denunciations of the Bible would be more appropriate in America, where a supposed 53 per cent of believers take Genesis as the literal truth of how the universe was created - only 6,000 years ago or so, they believe.

Having put the Bible in the recycle bin, Hitchens might have asked how it differs from ancient Greek texts of similar date and doubtfulness.

Does he refuse to read the Iliad and the Odyssey because Homer's existence is uncertain historically, as is the siege of Troy? Does he reject the axioms of Euclid because he may well never have existed but was the pseudonym of a committee of mathematicians? Having, they believe, demonstrated the unlikelihood of God, atheists have to show how much more reliable it is to believe in science as the answer to all our uncertainties.

Science is far from complete - there is so much we still don't know - but their assurance is that one day we will. We will attain that Holy Grail of the physicists sought by Einstein: the Theory of Everything.

Meanwhile, we have enough to go on without needing to presume a God as ultimate Creator.

Now most of us believe in science. We are happy to pay homage to the saints of scientific breakthrough - to Pythagoras and Archimedes, to Galileo and Newton, to Darwin and Einstein, Crick, Watson and the rest, remembering always that their work was bound to be superseded by those who came after. The final Theory of Everything seems as far away as it ever did.

That is why such huge, basic questions asked by our ancestors are still being raised: Why are we here? Why is the universe? As the philosopher Leibniz put it most starkly: 'Why is there something, rather than nothing?'

Science cannot answer 'why' questions, only 'how' questions. The explanation of how we got here is currently Darwin's evolution of species by random mutation and natural selection. Only the wilfully blind would reject that - but we still want to know why it started.

Cosmologists have made great strides in plotting the evolution of the universe from the Big Bang to its present state. But we still want to know why there was a big bang.

As for the other great question - what is the point, or purpose, of it all? - the current answer from science is that there isn't one. Dawkins again: 'The universe has no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.'

So atheism is a belief in pointlessness. As Hitchens observes, the views from the Hubble telescope are more awe-inspiring than any medieval vision of Hell.

A Black Hole is as sobering a concept as the voice of God coming from the clouds on Mount Sinai. And the intricacy of the double helix or the human genome are as great a marvel as the most heart-stopping landscape on Earth or cloudscape in the Heavens.

But they are all pointless, without purpose. Our existence on what as far as we know is the one blue planet in trillions that nurtures and protects human life is the result of the most exquisite fine-tuning of forces such as gravity.

Every year we are seeing proved how easy it is to upset this tuning through climate change. We know how fragile the future existence of humanity could be.

But, say the atheists, it all came about by chance, thanks to millions of amazing coincidences, without any God-like creating principle behind them. Strictly speaking science invites us to believe not in a God but in the gambler's goddess - Lady Luck.

Luck or not, here we are to ask why and what for. No wonder there are, in spite of everything, many reputable scientists who do believe in God and maintain there is no contradiction between that and their belief in science.

Atheists have to face the conundrum: why do so many people believe in God when there is no God to believe in?

Their usual answer is that they are all deluded wishful thinkers who invent a God because they are scared of dying and want to imagine life after death.

Hitchens distrusts faith of any kind - 'we distrust anything that contradicts science or reason'. But reason only takes us so far. We do not live by reason alone. We rely also on intuition, imagination and faith.

Without faith - belief beyond evidence - life would be unlivable. Imagine taking a journey without faith - faith in an unknown driver, faith that there will not be an accident. You would never leave home.

Dawkins calls non-thinking faith 'evil' but current cosmologists are required to believe that the universe must be full of Dark Matter which they can neither see nor measure. What an act of faith that requires!

So it ill behoves scientists to ridicule faith as a basic fact of human nature. And of course, as the only ground for belief in God or salvation. No one can prove or disprove it. Atheism as a world view, as a philosophy to live by, is full of holes. It leaves unanswered and unanswerable our questions about the mystery of our existence.

So I am astounded that in the face of so much aggressive atheist attack no one in the ranks of believers or in the Church has stood up to reply.

Why has no one joined in the battle against these warriors for atheism? Where are the Defenders of the Faith that they ridicule?

Are our bishops and cardinals, our preachers, imams or rabbis too supine, too complacent or too scared to argue back? Have they no arguments?

In the past there have been eloquent fighters for Christian belief: churchmen such as Cardinal Newman and Archbishop Temple, writers like G. K. Chesterton or C. S. Lewis, of Narnia fame. Where are their successors?

I know of only one: Oxford professor of theology Alister McGrath - who is also a bio-physicist - who has made a substantial refutation.

In a little book called The Dawkins Delusion he takes apart the arguments of his fellow Oxford professor and chides him for his unscholarly ignorance of theology. But though excellently argued, this is hardly likely to become a bestseller. Where are the intellectual guns of the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England?

The Pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, wrote intelligently combative books. Why does he not show that the Papacy can argue as well as act as a figurehead?

The Church of England, mired in a squabble over homosexual priests, should wheel out its guns on a more important front.

This lack of response is dangerous, especially in the eyes of young people seeking enlightenment. It looks as though the battle will be conceded by default.

Speaking up for faith should not be left to the lunatic fringe - such as the American televangelists who declared that 9/11 was God's judgment on America for tolerating abortion, or to the Fatwaissuersof Islam who threaten the life of Salman Rushdie for even questioning the Koran.

Apart from fanatics of all religions whose rigid minds leave no room for questioning, we live in an age of doubt and scepticism.

It is not enough for complacent pastors to feed their dwindling flocks with anodyne repetitions of old platitudes and the assurance that God is in his Heaven waiting for them personally. People are too educated and sophisticated for the old messages.

What are needed are speakers and writers of vision ready to address with open mind the questions and difficulties that would-be believers meet in their spiritual searches. And to show up the blind spots and black holes of both religion and atheism. It is time for some honest debate.

Comments 1 - 50 of 84 |

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1. Comment #54470 by tieInterceptor on July 7, 2007 at 11:07 am

 avatarfunny how she criticise 'the God delusion' and 'God is not great' with arguments already answered and crushed on the books.

Hitler, Stalin usual stuff, science does not know before the big bang 'god did it' then, goldilocks question but ignores the anthropic principle,
and points at Alister McGrath? as the best that his side has to offer at the moment... seriously??

'People are too educated and sophisticated for the old messages'

she answered her own article, religion does not work for educated and sophisticated people.

time to move on with the times, seriously

ps: just read the comments on the article.

'I can tell you for a fact that God is no delusion- that He is real to me and that He does exist. What other man would have ever died on the cross to save humanity from our sins so that we could be reconciled with God?

- Rosalee D, USA'


hurts my brain.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

2. Comment #54472 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 11:25 am

 avatarMcGrath takes apart Dawkins? When did this happen? McGrath made a substantial refutation. No he didn't, he just taked a lot utill I lost the will to live. He didn't actually say anything. I suggest the pope will keep quiet in order not to expose himself; and the rest of the kiddy fidlers are nervous.

Other Comments by gordon

3. Comment #54473 by Logicel on July 7, 2007 at 11:29 am

 avatarHave they no arguments?
______

The only real argument they have is faith, to take it on faith. And as the author of the article has clearly stated, people are too educated and sophisticated for the old messages which are primarily based on faith. Without faith, religion does not have a leg to stand on.

As for science not answering why questions, this author needs to focus on sophisticated folks being more interested in how questions; the why to it all--the meaning of life--these folks are ready and able to supply it themselves. Again, as it has been pointed out many times, evolution is not a chance happening because of the role of natural selection.

The pleading that church officials fight back the atheists better than the way they have been doing speaks volumes. And a large part of that volume is filled by the viral nature of religious criticism at present because of the Net, which is apparently quite a shock for some because religious believers have been isolated from critical confrontation for so long.

The clamoring for religious officials to fight back is so sad to me. This pleading is reminiscent of the shock and disappointment when a child finally grasps that their parents are just ordinary folks, and not gods. These religious believers are getting a similar wake-up call regarding their religious leaders who are only ordinary folks with no real connection to the supernatural and with no unique handle on meaning and truth.

Other Comments by Logicel

4. Comment #54474 by PaulJ on July 7, 2007 at 11:31 am

 avatarThis (anonymous) article seems very muddled, as if the writer accepts the arguments from both sides of the God debate.
Just for good measure he adds: 'A misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal megalomaniac and capriciously malevolent bully.' Does he think anyone believes in a God like that today?
Dawkins is quite right to think that (though he has said elsewhere that this was put in partly for comic effect). Only the other day the Bishop of Carlisle said that the recent floods in England were God's judgement on declining moral standards, with a particular reference to homosexuals.
But Hitchens and Dawkins fulminate as though every believer has to accept wildly improbably episodes as 'gospel' along with the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, which are the heart of the matter.
The improbable episodes are in the same book as the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. How, exactly, are readers supposed to discriminate?
But, say the atheists, it all came about by chance, thanks to millions of amazing coincidences, without any God-like creating principle behind them. Strictly speaking science invites us to believe not in a God but in the gambler's goddess - Lady Luck.
May I suggest perusal of Douglas Adams' explanation of the anthropic priniciple? To quote:
This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise.
Adams, as usual, has an illuminating take on things.
Without faith - belief beyond evidence - life would be unlivable. Imagine taking a journey without faith - faith in an unknown driver, faith that there will not be an accident. You would never leave home.
Actually, when I take a journey I don't know there won't be an accident. But I can look at the probabilities, and make a judgement. I don't pray that there won't be one. This is a silly example.
I know of only one: Oxford professor of theology Alister McGrath - who is also a bio-physicist - who has made a substantial refutation.
I've not read McGrath's book, but the arguments I've heard him give, including in his (subsequently cut) discussion with Richard Dawkins intended for Channel 4's The Root of All Evil? struck me as puerile.
It is time for some honest debate.
I'll second that.

http://www.evilburnee.co.uk

Other Comments by PaulJ

5. Comment #54475 by bluebird on July 7, 2007 at 11:33 am

 avatarOff Topic

Logicel, is your avatar a Morning Glory?
It's nice, (and needed)!

Other Comments by bluebird

6. Comment #54476 by Mango on July 7, 2007 at 11:37 am

 avatar
"militant atheist"

So, does that mean I'm also a "militant atoothfairyist"?
"All this denouncing leaves unspoken the vast amount of good done from religious motives."

A religious motive is a selfish motive, a servile motive. Humanists who do good works are the admirable ones.
"Science is far from complete - there is so much we still don't know - but their assurance is that one day we will."

No respectable scientist has said that one day we will have all the answers. This is the statement of a person who does not understand science.
"So atheism is a belief in pointlessness."

Why do there need to be supernatural beings in order for humans to have meaning in our lives? There is much meaning in our relationships, our personal development, raising children. Atheism is life-affirming because it acknowledges there is no pie in the sky after you die.

"Why has no one joined in the battle against these warriors for atheism?"

There have been many rebuttals by theists in book reviews, debates, editorials. If this person meant to ask the question why has there been no adequate response to the neo-atheists, it's because there is none.

Other Comments by Mango

7. Comment #54477 by willbonds on July 7, 2007 at 11:48 am

It's regrettable that the author doesn't have the cojones to identify herself. She's pitiable for asking religous leaders to take up the banner, which says to me that she has no regard for the ability of the common religious individual to 'stand up for God.' I wonder if she has read the books she mentions, or is just passing along clips. On the issue of debate, if we're going to have it then by all means let's make it honest, but on paper rather than in a public forum. Get all the points and argument in one place for all to see, so the debate can't be manipulated on the spot by some impolite loud mouth. That's why I can't watch Fox News.

Other Comments by willbonds

8. Comment #54478 by Logicel on July 7, 2007 at 11:50 am

 avatarOT: bluebird, My avatar is indeed a morning glory (Ipomoea). Though I have tons of photos of morning glories since I once flanked the entire length of my forty-foot-long balcony, ten floors up from a major blvd, with zillions of morning glories, this public domain photo was gotten from this Flickr photographer:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/heartlover1717/227867562/

I was tempted to change my user ID to The Girl from Ipomoea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Girl_from_Ipanema), but decided to stick with Logicel at this site. I am glad you find it nice; it calms me every time I see it. And your bluebird avatar was an indirect inspiration, as every time I saw it, I realized how wonderful the color blue is.

Other Comments by Logicel

9. Comment #54479 by Dr Benway on July 7, 2007 at 11:51 am

 avatarPoor God. No one will stick up for Him. That's so sad, innit?

Other Comments by Dr Benway

10. Comment #54480 by Corylus on July 7, 2007 at 11:56 am

 avatar
In a little book called The Dawkins Delusion he takes apart the arguments of his fellow Oxford professor and chides him for his unscholarly ignorance of theology. But though excellently argued, this is hardly likely to become a bestseller.


Damn straight its not! It costs £7.99 for a REALLY tiny book. I have read the darned thing (let no one accuse me of not investigating both sides of an argument!) and take apart Dawkins' arguments it does not (doesn't even address most of them).

It is an interesting read in two ways though.

1) It could be used as an instruction manual for understanding the catty, snide, measly mouthed way that academics sometimes use language to insult each other. To a casual reader it may sound like 'chiding', but that book was actually spectacularly rude.

2) I got a laugh when McGrath suggested POMA (Partially Overlapping MAgisteria) as opposed to the famous NOMA (Non Overlapping MAgisteria).
Partially Overlapping MAgisteria indeed. Plucked Out of My Arse more like...

Other Comments by Corylus

11. Comment #54481 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 12:03 pm

 avatarPlucked Out of My Arse more like...

So poetic! Tut tut.

Other Comments by gordon

12. Comment #54482 by Logicel on July 7, 2007 at 12:10 pm

 avatarCorylus, Thanks for letting us know about POMA. I am cracking up. The POMA approach is like a band-aid being applied to a gushing arterial rupture--maybe it will stem the spurting of atheist bloodletting, if we can make believe we have a solution in the form of a medicinal POMAde!!!!!!

And of course, Dr Benway's adorable avatar would change your plucked to pooped.

Other Comments by Logicel

13. Comment #54484 by Newton30 on July 7, 2007 at 12:14 pm

 avatar
Just for good measure he adds: 'A misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal megalomaniac and capriciously malevolent bully.' Does he think anyone believes in a God like that today?

Interesting how the author admits that God is just a construct, made up and tailored for whatever the current zeitgeist would deem 'good'.

Other Comments by Newton30

14. Comment #54486 by DV82XL on July 7, 2007 at 12:19 pm

No one is standing up for God because He is no longer attracting the best intellectuals to His cause anymore.

The great minds of the past that tried to construct a working philosophy out of scripture were simply not replaced after the Enlightenment, and what is left are the delusional and the incompetent. The only reasonably powerful minds left in the field are the criminal element, that exploit the weak to line their pockets.

Other Comments by DV82XL

15. Comment #54487 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 12:21 pm

 avatarIsn't it strange that God and He still attract capitals?

Other Comments by gordon

16. Comment #54488 by Dr Benway on July 7, 2007 at 12:24 pm

 avatar
Interesting how the author admits that God is just a construct, made up and tailored for whatever the current zeitgeist would deem 'good'.
LOL.

For me, God is mashed potatoes. What have atheists got against mashed potatoes, which I and a majority of the world's citizens find quite delicious? Mashed potatoes are not "the root of all evil." Mashed potatoes don't "poison everything." Silly atheists!
Isn't it strange that God and He still attract capitals?
Germans seem to capitalize everything. English speakers capitalize proper nouns. This holds even for fictional characters like God.

Convention holds that God is nameless and thus every term for him is effectively a pronoun or placeholder. So for clarity, "He, Him, His" are capitalized as well as "God."

Other Comments by Dr Benway

17. Comment #54489 by Fouad Boussetta on July 7, 2007 at 12:28 pm

 avatar"Strictly speaking science invites us to believe not in a God but in the gambler's goddess - Lady Luck."

Funny: my favorite divinity is indeed Fortuna, the roman goddess of Luck/Fate!

:)

Other Comments by Fouad Boussetta

18. Comment #54490 by NoLongerHaveBelief on July 7, 2007 at 12:29 pm

I've never met such wishful thinking in all my days!

This author seems to accept ALL Atheists arguments - but still INSISTS on God being there!

Yes. MAYBE God is there. But he/ she/ it is one lazy son-of-a-b*tch.

It makes no sense to myself. WHY put life on Earth? Why not on Pluto or Jupiter? After all, surely God can do anything?

Oh! God is BEYOND the Big Bang. That's convenient. How is this known, exactly? This rationalization is EXACTLY what Professor Dawkins is trying to reach; intelligent people, or at least open-minded people, who will THINK.

Surely, surely, surely, those old ancient texts now have little bearing on our era? I find some of the tripe in the Bible obnoxious and anti-mankind.

The ONLY part I agree with, due SOLELY to the right of free-speech, is attacking Theists. I agree, we should NOT destroy their Faith. My mother believes and because of my stance now, asked me recently, for my viewpoint. "We simply don't know" [though the evidence DOES suggest no God or Supernaturalism], I said, "So DON'T lose your Faith, if it makes you a stronger person.". Just as children SHOULD be allowed to learn about God in their own time [as Professor Dawkins insists], so to, people should become Atheist if they so CHOOSE.

It's amazing the furore Professor Dawkins works kick up! I adore his works. I am now reading the Devils Chaplain - and I learn more on 2 pages of THAT book than in any Bible.

Warm Regards, to believers and non-believers alike.

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

19. Comment #54491 by BAEOZ on July 7, 2007 at 12:35 pm

 avatarDr. Benway, what happened to the mooning bird? This current avatar is so cute, I expect n'er an expletive to be uttered again by you. Did WeaFlea get over your revelation of a tryst with his mother?

Other Comments by BAEOZ

20. Comment #54492 by BAEOZ on July 7, 2007 at 12:36 pm

 avatarOh, and as for the article. Drivel, and as the author cedes all the points to Dawkins and Hitchens she/he's left with wishful thinking. Poor little author, wants to be the reason the universe exists and those nasty scientists are taking that away from him/her.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

21. Comment #54493 by k1mgy on July 7, 2007 at 12:36 pm

 avatar"So I am astounded that in the face of so much aggressive atheist attack no one in the ranks of believers or in the Church has stood up to reply."

Astounded? After all those paragraphs, the author actually poses this question? Hello?? Could it be that the ranks of believers have ZERO to offer? Imagine that!

"A Black Hole is as sobering a concept as the voice of God coming from the clouds on Mount Sinai. And the intricacy of the double helix or the human genome are as great a marvel as the most heart-stopping landscape on Earth or cloudscape in the Heavens."

One can SEE the images from the Hubbell Space Telescope with one's own eyes. There's everything sober about it. Hearing voices and seeing stuff that's not there suggests inebriation or mental imbalance. That's not sobering - it's frightening.

It's ever so painful to have to explain this. Someone, please take over.

Other Comments by k1mgy

22. Comment #54494 by gordon on July 7, 2007 at 12:50 pm

 avatarImagine a round table discussion. The pope, the archbishop of Canterbury, Dan Dennet, M Z Myers, Alistair McGrath, Ossie Bin Laden (F---ing Islam man) and Richard Dawkins, chaired by Paxman. It could happen.

Other Comments by gordon

23. Comment #54496 by _J_ on July 7, 2007 at 1:09 pm

 avatarAw, bless. What a list of knee-jerk infantile bleating. I had to resist the urge to duck the toys flying out of the pram.

Someone should point Mr/s Daily Mail (please tell me the editor didn't write this pap) to our very own Dawkins/McGrath comment thread for a ringside seat in the Dianelos Takes On All Atheists on Philosophy, Psychology, Quantum Mechanics and Whatever Else You've Got fight. There're enough words in there for ten theist apologists to plagiarize tiny irrelevant books from.

Other Comments by _J_

24. Comment #54499 by Dr Benway on July 7, 2007 at 1:43 pm

 avatarBAEOZ:
Dr. Benway, what happened to the mooning bird?
Hi Taz. A bloke asked me to change my avatar. He worried it might give visitors to the respectable, intellectual, all-grown-up professor's "Oasis of Clear Thinking" the wrong impression.

Standard operating procedure dictates that I drop a wet one on requests like these. However, the chappie posted that he's in his 80s and the doctors don't give him much longer, poor bastard.

Hate to be the straw, y'know. One day Meals on Wheels are late. His Depends get in a twist. He fires up the computer, catches a glimpse of the wee tit's downy underparts, then BAM! He's travelling down that long tunnel with the bright white light at the end.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

25. Comment #54500 by Johnny O on July 7, 2007 at 1:52 pm

 avatar
For me, God is mashed potatoes. What have atheists got against mashed potatoes, which I and a majority of the world's citizens find quite delicious? Mashed potatoes are not "the root of all evil." Mashed potatoes don't "poison everything." Silly atheists!


It's not the Potatoes it's the Mashing that causes problems.

My God, the one true God, is a Whole Potato, Mashing is a sin and unless you stop in this Heathen practise you may well be the cause of the world's first Holy Potato War...

(Note the correct use of capitals)

Other Comments by Johnny O

26. Comment #54502 by _J_ on July 7, 2007 at 2:00 pm

 avatar
(Note the correct use of capitals)

...but non-standard use of 'e'. Is 'Potatoe' the spelling of True Believers? ;)

Other Comments by _J_

27. Comment #54503 by Johnny O on July 7, 2007 at 2:14 pm

 avatar
...but non-standard use of 'e'. Is 'Potatoe' the spelling of True Believers? ;)


And that is why The Holy Potato (no 'e') Lord created the edit button...

Other Comments by Johnny O

28. Comment #54505 by _J_ on July 7, 2007 at 2:35 pm

 avatar
And that is why The Holy Potato (no 'e') Lord created the edit button...

Wow. Now, if the bible had one of those...

Other Comments by _J_

29. Comment #54508 by Johnny O on July 7, 2007 at 3:01 pm

 avatar
Wow. Now, if the bible had one of those...


That's the problem with writing things on stone tablets. No Edit, no backspace, no cut and paste.

The one true Bible therefore suits whatever the moral zeigeist happens to be. We like gays, evolution, big bang theory and monkey tennis.

We are however still dubious about the mashing of potatoes and the making of chips, (or French Fries).

Other Comments by Johnny O

30. Comment #54510 by Creeping Jesus on July 7, 2007 at 3:14 pm

 avatar"Imagine taking a journey without faith - faith in an unknown driver, faith that there will not be an accident. You would never leave home."

Twat!

Yes I can imagine a journey without faith. I've lived it all my life.

How come I have no problem living without it then?

Other Comments by Creeping Jesus

31. Comment #54515 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on July 7, 2007 at 3:19 pm

"Thinking Christians would no more take every word of either testament literaly"

It was at this point I gave up on the article. When somebody tries to make the case for their side, I'm all for it - but when they try to claim that people on their side don't say the things they do, or don't believe the things they confess to, then all I can think is that they are deluded beyond the point of comprehension.

There are twats who DO take the word of the testaments as literal. And they claim to be the thinking ones. It's the same frigging excuse everytime with the religious, they use the "no true scottsman" excuse every time sombody who claims to be of their religion says something that makes them feel awkward. What a load of crap.

Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

32. Comment #54517 by steveroot on July 7, 2007 at 3:34 pm

 avatar
26. Comment #54502 by _J_ on July 7, 2007 at 2:00 pm

(Note the correct use of capitals)


...but non-standard use of 'e'. Is 'Potatoe' the spelling of True Believers? ;)


Why... that would mean... Dan Quayle is the Messiah!

LOL!
Steve

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33. Comment #54518 by pw201 on July 7, 2007 at 3:46 pm

Posted to the Mail's comments, we'll see whether it turns up:

What we're interested in is what is true. If Euclid never existed, we can still work with the axioms, because they their truth is independent of who invented them. Jesus' teachings are not unique (the Golden Rule was stated by others before Jesus, for example). Rather, Christianity is about who Jesus was. If Jesus did not exist (or, I'd argue, if he was not resurrected), Christianity is dead.

The modern defenders of religion exist, but have given up on orthodox Christianity. Look at the people writing critical reviews of "The God Delusion", or debating with Dawkins. Terry Eagleton thinks Christianity is a kind of Marxism, and that Christians don't believe in a personal God. In conversations with Dawkins, McGrath himself fudged when asked direct questions about the Virgin Birth and the Atonement. Orthodoxy is seen as intellectually embarrassing (and with good reason). What modern theologians defend is a philosopher's God who nobody would bother to worship.

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34. Comment #54519 by Veronique on July 7, 2007 at 3:49 pm

 avatarYou lasted longer than I did you NaughtyBoy:-)

I am noticing in myself a decided disinclination to read twaddle. I seem to have had a surfeit of the nonsense spruiked by people like the author of said article.

There is no such thing as a 'thinking' christian or muslim or any faithhead. Thinking produces far more neural activity than 'faith' can. It leads to curiosity and educative pursuits, not to a silly old book written by silly men wearing long shifts. And not a decent woman among them!

Now, if the bishop of carlisle hadn't tried to fashion-design his dress and had stayed with the old shift of the bronze age, how seriously do you think anyone would take him? I am sure he would be seen as the nutter he is.

And in the interests of proper speech and capitalisation, I hereby vow that I will only capitalise the word beginning a sentence, and countries, and posters' names, and ......

BTW, I emailed the bish with Satanburiesfossils's long list of quotes from the babble and suggested that he push for inclusion of intelligent weather studies in schools. I have yet to hear from him.

But, then again, I also suggested that he get a proper day job. That may have got up his nose a bit. My suggestion that he read Edward Gibbon and find out when Rome fell may have put him out of sorts.

I am finding the comment threads far more interesting than the articles by religious apologists and the Hitch, I am sad to say.

Never mind, she said, bucking up.There are lots of other articles to be interested in. Like rats pretending to be altruistic. No they're not. I loved my lab. rats but they were selfish and only wanted food and a bit of a cuddle. Or maybe, it was that I wanted the cuddle:-)

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

35. Comment #54520 by He-man Daunted World on July 7, 2007 at 3:52 pm

The real question is - Won't God stand up for God?

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36. Comment #54524 by _J_ on July 7, 2007 at 4:14 pm

 avatar35. Comment #54520 by He-man Daunted World

Nice comment, but moreover: excellent choice of name!

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37. Comment #54527 by Dr Benway on July 7, 2007 at 4:21 pm

 avatarHe-Man, the writer of this article was oblivious to the bleedin' obvious, obviously.

Prize goes to you.

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38. Comment #54543 by konquererz on July 7, 2007 at 5:32 pm

 avatarThis guy has been a christian so long that he no longer can conceive of life with out a meaning wrapped up in a super power god. He states that atheism is "a belief in pointlessness", once again showing that the religious hordes are simply not understanding what is being said. There is no belief involved. And they ignore the parts where atheists talk about our life having meaning for life's sake, for the love of experiencing the world around us, and learning.

Its the same old idea that if you don't have god, nothing means anything. I think that this is a sad, but true, representation of religion. They are deathly afraid of living in a world without a specific being higher than themselves to be "in charge". I think that idea terrifies them.

What further, they view this assault on faith for something worse than it is. They don't really know what faith is. After all, why is it so great to believe without the need for evidence or in spite of it?

And as a matter of fact, he doesn't realize that a great majority of people in this country actually do take the bible literally, don't believe in evolution, and believe jesus is coming back for christians. So his ignorance flames through as the out of touch christian. Out of touch with reality, and out of touch with his own christian base.

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39. Comment #54544 by Canuck#1 on July 7, 2007 at 5:39 pm

 avatarWho believes all of this....the Bible as the word of god, the divinity of Jesus and his resurrection, heaven and hell, miracles, the answers to prayer....just all the people I grew up with, all the people I went to Bible school with, all the TV evangelists and all the people sending them money (in the millions)..... These are the people who, if it were allowed, would be burning atheists like us at the stake....that is who.

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40. Comment #54547 by mmurray on July 7, 2007 at 5:52 pm

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What modern theologians defend is a philosopher's God who nobody would bother to worship.


Very nicely put. And that is one reason why they are not clamouring to attack people like Dawkins -- they don't actually disagree with them on very much.

Michael

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41. Comment #54554 by Satanburiedfossils on July 7, 2007 at 6:13 pm

 avatar
Atheists have to face the conundrum: why do so many people believe in God when there is no God to believe in?
The late Robert G. Ingersoll has a sensible, straightforward answer to this question: human beings invented God. But the field is not limited to just one supreme being. Indeed, as Ingersoll puts it: "Few nations have been so poor as to have but one god. Gods were made so easily, and the raw material cost so little, that generally the god market was fairly glutted, and heaven crammed with these phantoms."

More from Ingersoll's "The Gods" (1872):

To me, it seems easy to account for these ideas concerning gods and devils. They are a perfectly natural production. Man has created them all, and under the same circumstances would create them again. Man has not only created all these gods, but he has created them out of the materials by which he has been surrounded. Generally he has modeled them after himself, and has given them hands, heads, feet, eyes, ears. and organs of speech. Each nation made its gods and devils speak its language not only, but put in their mouths the same mistakes in history, geography, astronomy, and in all matters of fact, generally made by the people. No god was ever in advance of the nation that created him. The negroes represented their deities with black skins and curly hair. The Mongolian gave to his a yellow complexion and dark almond-shaped eyes. The Jews were not allowed to paint theirs, or we should have seen Jehovah with a full beard, an oval face, and an aquiline nose. Zeus was a perfect Greek, and Jove looked as though a member of the Roman senate. The gods of Egypt had the patient face and placid look of the loving people who made them. The gods of northern countries were represented warmly clad in robes of fur; those of the tropics were naked. The gods of India were often mounted upon elephants; those of some islanders were great swimmers, and the deities of the Arctic zone were passionately fond of whale's blubber. Nearly all people have carved or painted representations of their gods, and these representations were, by the lower classes, generally treated as the real gods, and to these images and idols they addressed prayers and offered sacrifice.

Man has never been at a loss for gods. He has worshiped almost everything, including the vilest and most disgusting beasts. He has worshiped fire, earth, air, water, light, stars, and for hundreds of ages prostrated himself before enormous snakes. Savage tribes often make gods of articles they get from civilized people. The Todas worship a cow-bell. The Kotas worship two silver plates, which they regard as husband and wife, and another tribe manufactured a god out of a king of hearts.

Man has no ideas, and can have none, except those suggested by his surroundings. He cannot conceive of anything utterly unlike what he has seen or felt. He can exaggerate, diminish, combine, separate, deform, beautify, improve, multiply and compare what he sees, what he feels, what he hears, and all of which he takes cognizance through the medium of the senses; but he cannot create. Having seen exhibitions of power, he can say, omnipotent. Having lived, he can say, immortality. Knowing something of time, he can say, eternity. Conceiving something of intelligence, he can say, God. Having seen exhibitions of malice, he can say, devil. A few glean's of happiness having fallen athwart the gloom of his life, he can say, heaven. Pain, in its numberless forms, having been experienced, he can say, hell. Yet all these ideas have a foundation in fact, and only a foundation. The superstructure has been reared by exaggerating, diminishing, combining, separating, deforming, beautifying, improving or multiplying realities, so that the edifice or fabric is but the incongruous grouping of what man has perceived through the medium of the senses. It is as though we should give to a lion the wings of an eagle, the hoofs of a bison, the tail of a horse, the pouch of a kangaroo, and the trunk of an elephant. We have in imagination created an impossible monster, and yet the various parts of this monster really exist. So it is with all the gods that man has made.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/gods.html

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42. Comment #54558 by Dr Benway on July 7, 2007 at 6:47 pm

 avatarsteveroot:
Why... that would mean... Dan Quayle is the Messiah!
The Bible speaks of "the sin against the Holy Spirit," but without giving any details. How unfortunate because Jesus is quoted as saying that this particular sin, unlike all the others, will never be forgiven. Ever.

Now we know what this is about: putting an "e" at the end of "potato."

Verily, Quayle is eternally fucked.

Seeing the grammar theme here, just thought I'd mention.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

43. Comment #54561 by Downunder on July 7, 2007 at 7:04 pm

 avatarMuch twitter, no eggs, infertile discussion.
DrBenway, the comments about your twinkle-eyed-tufted-titmouse speak for themselves.
To all: we won't learn much by just repeating the same old "I don't believe it, unless you prove it". I find it rather obvious that a God-existence can not be proven, so why keep on that dead end track. Similarly, the non-existence of a God is inherently also beyond proof by the atheists. Let us try and look for alternatives through fertile discussion. More hope on the RD-McG site. Bye bye.

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44. Comment #54563 by Nefrubyr on July 7, 2007 at 7:32 pm

 avatarI can't let this bit of nonsense pass without comment:
Dawkins calls non-thinking faith 'evil' but current cosmologists are required to believe that the universe must be full of Dark Matter which they can neither see nor measure. What an act of faith that requires!

That is no act of faith. This author writes as if it's some initiation rite! If cosmologists believe there is "dark matter" in the universe, it's because the universe is behaving as if it has twenty times more mass than it appears to have. It would take a great deal of faith to believe that current theories just carry on working under such a contradiction. It takes intellectual honesty to accept the evidence and get to work on explaining the phenomenon.

In a similar vein, I recently read a book on quantum physics and am currently reading Einstein's work on relativity. If I had faith in my own intuition and early education, I would reject these weird theories and insist on living in a Newtonian world where all metres are the same length, no matter how fast they're travelling. But I have the honesty to accept the evidence for these theories. It's strange that there's a speed limit on the universe, but the evidence indicates that there truly is. It's beyond my comprehension how a single photon can pass through two separate slits at the same time, but that is what appears to happen. This is exactly the opposite of faith. It's accepting evidence and updating what you know.

These cosmologists accused of having faith are in fact following the scientific ideal of putting evidence ahead of their own preconceptions.

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45. Comment #54564 by ADParker on July 7, 2007 at 8:05 pm

 avatarStrange, strange article.
It seemed to offer plenty of good reasons NOT to believe in God, and then offers little more than the tired old "There is a lot science does not yet know, so let's rely on religion for those bits, 'cause it's better to belive something than admit ignorance, right?". Rubbish!
As to the equally tired "Science tells us how not why", in many cases Science tells us, evolution of life and species for example, that WHY is the wrong question, as it seems to assume there was some intent in it all. As too the remaining why questions, why not try philosophy, or just thinking for yourself, rather than relying on a highly dubious (agreed by the author's own admissions) preachings.
All in all I would say this is not a bad article to suggest to those 'on the fence', it is quite likely to push them to admit that their lingering religious faith is misplaced and unfounded.

Other Comments by ADParker

46. Comment #54566 by Arcturus on July 7, 2007 at 8:21 pm

 avatarJust a frustrating anonymous article ... seems to contradict itself at almost every argument.

Poor god, what a defence he has mustered ...

Other Comments by Arcturus

47. Comment #54567 by Alkal on July 7, 2007 at 8:35 pm

Poor lil God, does he need defenders now, poor pathetic creature.

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48. Comment #54569 by flistr8 on July 7, 2007 at 8:55 pm

 avatarLogicel has nailed it straightaway "religious believers have been isolated from critical confrontation for so long." This was one of the first points I heard Dawkins make that captured my fading spiritualist's heart, that religion is given a pass in society. Don't question why someone believes in God. Makes it kind of convenient to not have to question your own beliefs too. I have no qualms over bruised feelings religionists may suffer. I'm much more interested in motivating latent atheists to speak out.

My thanks to PaulJ for the Douglas Adams link. Awesome. This board is wonderful.

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49. Comment #54571 by troyreynolds86 on July 7, 2007 at 9:21 pm

Just a few points on the bible that I would like to make. First, if a modern Christian is to look at the Old Testament as being myth (that it almost entirely is, even those names that are verifiable turn out to have actions attributed that are largely overblown or complete fabrications) then upon what justification do they have for accepting biblical prophesy of Jesus? The prophets were followers of the being that Dawkins does describe and apparently got it all wrong but somehow got the prophesies right. I will admit that perhaps a divine creator did this (just being its usual mysterious self) for purposes that we can't know, but one doesn't have to be particularly skeptical to scratch ones head over this.

Secondly, if the Nativity and the Annuciation both are myth then doesn't this also place a serious burden on the prized virgin birth. How can a Christian justify this belief? These wouldn't be myths that required centuries to fester upon the lips of ever competing oral story tellers (each looking for consistent work) but would have sprung up quickly. That doesn't speak of myth, that recks of lies. And if they lied about that, what else did they lie about?

Thirdly, didn't Jesus give us the impression that he beleived in the literal truth of the Old Testament, and in fact, on the mount, said that those orders should be followed? The god of the Christians seems to believe in a god that modern Christians dismiss as myth. A troubling position.

I would like to add that I hold more respect for the fundamentalist than I do the moderate. The moderate may be more reasonable but the fundamentalist is at least consistent and justified.

Also, if modern biblical scholarship is meant to influence modern Christianity then it should show that the bible is man made. Why should we accept the specific teachings of one particular branch of the early Christian faith (that survived and succeeded with imperial support) as opposed to the numerous ones that also existed? Why should that faith only fall upon the partly mythological four gospels of fame and not upon the others- i.e. Mary Magdelene, Phillip, Thomas, etc-or other works such as the Pistis Sophia (love it, it is like reading LSD)?

If the modern believer can answer these, in light of what the author reveals to us the position that the modern Christian holds and which I seem to have been unaware I would be truly interested in hearing. I have no interest in "faith" answers, but solid answers about why some miracles are accepting and some are deemed myth, why some aspects of Yahweh are dismissed while others (projection of prophesy, creator of the universe) are accepted. Trying to understand Christianity is like trying to paint a cameleon. As soon as you mix the paint the blasted thing changes.

Other Comments by troyreynolds86

50. Comment #54575 by steveroot on July 7, 2007 at 9:52 pm

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49. Comment #54571 by troyreynolds86 on July 7, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Just a few points on the bible that I would like to make. First, if a modern Christian is to look at the Old Testament as being myth (that it almost entirely is...

You might be interested in this book: "Adam to Ahab: Myth and History in the Bible". It was written by my father-in-law who became a biblical scholar in his late 60s. His interest is in the bible as an historical reference- apparently there are some things reported that there is corroborative evidence for; and plenty that there's NOT!
Steve

http://www.paragonhouse.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=387

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