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Saturday, July 14, 2007 | Reason : Backlash | print version Print | Comments

Document The fundamentalist delusion

by Barney Zwartz

Reposted from:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/the-fundamentalist-delusion/2007/07/13/1183833765250.html

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser;

a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

— Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion


HERE'S Richard Dawkins, sword flailing, mowing down his foes — all of them, Christian, Muslim, Jew, male or female, old or young. He cannot sheath his sword until the world is cleansed of religion, all of it, because it is a superstition, everywhere and always evil, blinding people to the "truth".

He's on TV, the internet and in print. But he's not alone, he's the vanguard of an army. Just behind him is French philosopher Michel Onfray, gadfly journalist Christopher Hitchens, and Melbourne philosopher of psychology Tamas Pataki — all authors whose books attacking religion have come to me in the past few months.

All have produced outspoken and sometimes vitriolic attacks on religion. It's not enough that they have seen the light themselves, religion everywhere must be extinguished. Let no one believe.

One might easily picture Dawkins as a puritanical preacher, prowling and peering into living rooms to make sure no one is up to sin, such as teaching religious faith to their children. That's "child abuse". Or as the great evangelist, going into all the world to make disciples and bring the "good news" of atheism to set the captives free. "If (The God Delusion) works as I intend it, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down," he writes.

What a wonderful irony: it's almost impossible not to turn to religious metaphors to describe this new and militant atheism with its grand vision of a new earth where the lion will lie down with the lamb and there will be no more tears. Rid the world of religion, insist the crusaders, and you rid it of its greatest evil.

Observing this bilious farrago of fury, I'm bewildered. Of course militant fundamentalist atheists are entitled to their views, and entitled to want to persuade others. But as those who claim their passing virtue is reason, why are they so unreasonable?

Am I too strong? Consider these thematic statements from Michel Onfray (An Atheist Manifesto): "Monotheism loathes intelligence" and is "fixated on death". He would even like to deny democratic equality to believers. "Equality between the believer and the thinker who deconstructs the manufacture of belief, the building of a myth, the creation of a fable? … If we say yes to these questions, then let's stop thinking."

He's worse than Dawkins because as a philosopher he should be above his deliberately distorted and unbalanced arguments. (Reason's implicit duty to fairness is apparent in the word "reasonable".) He gave a typical example in Melbourne in May while promoting his cynical and unpleasant book.

Asked to compare social action for justice by atheists and religious people such as nuns and Jesuits, Onfray said they had nothing in common. The nuns acted only for themselves to go to heaven, whereas atheists acted from a love of justice.

It's hard to have any respect for a man who speaks so contemptibly and contemptuously about the self-sacrifice of others. He's wrong. Those nuns do it because they love God, justice and people. No doubt for most it's a complex and shifting set of motivations. All Onfray can manage is the shell of a caricature.

One of the problems with the debate, as framed by these writers, is it's just a shouting match, and they want the bigger megaphone. There is no need to listen to religious people or engage with their thinking because they are wrong, stupid, brainwashed, deluded or wicked. That demonising of most of the world's population rather closes off discussion.

Tamaki apart, they are long on rhetoric and polemic but little else. They take the most extreme examples from religion, treat them as paradigmatic and allow no exceptions. Tamaki, who considers that the Abrahamic faiths are baleful and delusory, suggests many people believe not just from ignorance or inability to reason, but from unconscious psychological needs. Many — but not all — believers are in the grip of narcissism and mental infantilism. In passing, he criticises Dawkins' writing for its "psychological poverty".

Tamaki writes as a scholar, with careful and qualified argument. I'm happy to accept that Christians are influenced by unconscious desires and motivations — and so, of course, are atheists. I would have liked his thoughts on that. Christians, constantly told that they turn to religion because psychologically they need a crutch, retort that atheists reject God because psychologically they are afraid to be accountable. (An important caveat: most atheists, like most believers, are neither militant nor fundamentalist.)

About a month ago I began an Age blog on religion. I was gratified by the large response, but surprised that a sizeable majority came from atheists. Whatever the topic — the new mufti, consumerism, architecture, persecution — they have dominated the debate, constantly returning to argue the fatuity of faith and its evils. Though most posters have been polite, one atheist has sent in 150 posts, always trenchant, usually insulting, seldom reasonable.

Early on, I asked atheists posting to the blog why they were on the front foot. The most common suggestion was that they were responding to a rise in fundamentalist religion — "the back foot hasn't worked. We tried to live and let live, and unfortunately the religious fundamentalists took this to mean we deserved to die," wrote LD.

Rev Des said the causes were 9/11 and the internet, which allowed atheists to form a loose community and find their voice. Zadie suggested: "You've had 2500 years to prove the existence of the Christian god and failed. It's time reason was allowed a hearing." Twist was tired of tiptoeing around religious beliefs, while Wyn Richards took issue with "religion's self-proclaimed monopoly on morality".

There's no doubt that religious fundamentalism — especially, but not only, Islamic — is rising around the world and providing cause for concern. However, theists add at least one other explanation. Alister McGrath in The Dawkins Delusion says increasing atheist stridency stems partly from fear that atheism is failing, and that The God Delusion is more designed to reassure atheists whose faith is faltering than to engage fairly or rigorously with believers. Western atheists thought religion would simply die, but instead it is flourishing. How can belief in God persist when there is no God? "The anxiety is that the coherence of atheism itself is at stake. Might the unexpected resurgence of religion persuade many that atheism itself is fatally flawed as a world view?"

McGrath says it is this deep, unsettling anxiety about the future of atheism that explains Dawkins' dogmatism, aggressive rhetoric, hectoring and bullying.

Interestingly, atheists such as Dawkins seem not to have abolished God so much as replaced him — with "science". The way they speak of science, it is no longer an important and beneficial human practice, as we all recognise, but a transcendent good, the hope of humanity. For Dawkins, it's Animal Farm revisited: science good, religion bad.

But science, as most scientists acknowledge, has limits. As Oxford University philosophy professor Dan Robinson has pointed out in the face of atheists' demands for scientific "evidence" of God, the evidence science produces is "that empirical sort confined chiefly to the marks that matter makes on matter".

It explains causes, but not whether there are reasons behind such causes. It can't determine or explain human achievements in aesthetics, morals, politics or law, let alone whether there is meaning in the universe, or what it is.

Stephen J. Gould was, like Dawkins, an atheist who was an articulate and accessible writer on science. But he clearly saw that the natural sciences are consistent with both atheism and religious belief. Otherwise half his colleagues were enormously stupid — whichever half.

Dawkins dismisses this without reflection (as a fundamentalist ideologue must), saying he simply does not believe Gould could have meant it.

McGrath, like Dawkins an Oxford don, and a molecular biophysicist before he became a theologian, comments: "Whereas Gould at least tries to weigh up the evidence, Dawkins simply offers the atheist equivalent of slick hellfire preaching, substituting turbocharged rhetoric and highly selective manipulation of facts for careful, evidence-based thinking." Dawkins offers surprisingly little scientific analysis, he says.

TO McGRATH, Dawkins' absolute insistence that real scientists are atheists simply represents the triumph of dogma over observation. He is the mirror image of famous creationist scientist Henry Morris, who saw the world as polarised between believers and atheist scientists in a cosmic battle of truth against falsehood, good against evil. Dawkins simply replicates this fundamentalist scenario from the opposite side.

McGrath says many atheist scientists have vigorously opposed Dawkins. Why? He quotes a leaked email from leading atheist philosopher Michael Ruse last year to Daniel Dennett, author of another anti-religious diatribe, calling Dennett and Dawkins "absolute disasters" in the fight against intelligent design.

"What we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues — neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and engage with the ideas — it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard (Dawkins) claims." No believer could put it better. Or, as John Stuart Mill said: "He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that."

Further, it shouldn't shock anyone that scientists themselves are prone to human failures. This is not a criticism of the scientific method, but it is not always practised with complete purity. Drug company sponsorship of research, and influence over findings, for example, show what problems can arise. Nor are they immune from prejudice. Scientists who are believers often meet intolerance, as Francis Collins, a devout Christian who is director of the National Human Genome Research Institute, told The New York Times. "It should not be a taboo subject, but frankly it often is in scientific circles," he said.

The same article quoted Nobel laureate Herbert Hauptman, who was asked whether one could be a good scientist and believe in God? He replied that "belief in the supernatural, especially belief in God, is not only incompatible with good science, but damaging to the wellbeing of the human race".

Again, Hauptman is fully entitled to his opinion, but a pronouncement from a scientist doesn't make it science. That sort of intolerance stems not from science but other factors of psychology and experience that help shape his thinking. The problem is that because an eminent scientist says so, many people accept it unquestioningly. (The same is true, of course, of eminent religious figures.)

Dawkins and many of his followers seem to be resurrecting a short-lived 20th-century scientistic philosophy called logical positivism, which holds that only what you can measure or prove empirically can be called truth. All other discourse is meaningless, especially questions of meaning. It was short-lived, partly because it failed its own test — it couldn't be measured or empirically verified.

The way these books are selling, though, shows they have touched a nerve in modern Western society. And I don't deny that some of their concerns are justified. As an adult, I have been both atheist and Christian, and as both I had and have questions.

No religion has all the answers. Neither does science. Where Dawkins and I can agree, as representatives of the two positions (if I can immodestly assume that role just for a paragraph), is that humans are a tiny and finite part of an overwhelming and infinite cosmos. We are both moved by the awe and wonder the universe inspires.

In an age of extreme polarities, that's a salutary call to humility and perspective from which discussion can be profitable. My blog has provided a microcosm of the God debate, including both ranters and the more irenic who are interested in actually engaging with those who believe differently. I know which are more interesting and persuasive.

As the prophet Isaiah put it, all flesh is as grass — the flower fades and the grass withers. But he also had this advice, which we can all take to heart: "Come now, and let us reason together."



The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins, Bantam, $35; The Atheist Manifesto, Michel Onfray, Melbourne University Press, $33; God is not Great, Christopher Hitchens Allen & Unwin, $30; Against Religion, Tamas Pataki, Scribe, $22; The Dawkins Delusion, Alister McGrath, SPCK, $23.

Barney Zwartz is religion editor.

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1. Comment #56215 by PrimeNumbers on July 14, 2007 at 2:06 pm

 avatar"Study Christianity seriously....", that's like saying we can't say faries are bunk without doing an in-depth, serious study of the farie phenonema first. Perhaps we even have to believe in faries first before we study them, because, as you know, fairies don't appear to un-believers.

But quite frankly, it's wonderful to see the stupid christians on the defensive.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

2. Comment #56220 by DV82XL on July 14, 2007 at 2:14 pm

Same old, same old. Atheism is a religion therefor it can be dismissed by the same arguments it turns on faith. Wrong as usual.

Other Comments by DV82XL

3. Comment #56222 by roach on July 14, 2007 at 2:19 pm

Yes. Let us reason together. I'll go first.

Any belief in a personal god is nonsense. And using God as a metaphor is misleading and stupid.

Glad we got that out of the way.

Other Comments by roach

4. Comment #56230 by bluebird on July 14, 2007 at 2:50 pm

 avatar"bilious farrago of fury"?
Ugh, may the Swartz NOT be with you.

Other Comments by bluebird

5. Comment #56236 by willbonds on July 14, 2007 at 3:06 pm

I find it interesting that Mr. Zwartz has seen his comments published here. It at least shows a willingness to have the argument on Dawkins' own turf.

As for the other comments thus far, I'm disappointed. I find them dogmatic, and while dogmatic positions are easy to take once one has done one's thinking on the matter, it's important for the sake of the whole argument that we do *not* speak dogmatically, lest we act in the same manner as the proponents of the faith we oppose. Sound the clear, reasoned voice as many times as necessary; once we turn to rash polemicism we are but a few steps away from intolerance and terror. Extremism polarizes.

I wish to disagree with the idea that science is the answer to everything. In my view, it's more important to say that reasoned inquiry of the provable and demonstrable are more important, and I don't see this and science as the same things. If the scientific method is useful in that process, then good, but that method is only a subset of the act of rational discourse based on sound reasoning and verifiable facts.

Other Comments by willbonds

6. Comment #56240 by PaulJ on July 14, 2007 at 3:22 pm

 avatarDoes Barney Zwartz actually know the meanings of the words 'dogma' and 'fundamentalist'?

There are no such things as 'atheist dogma' or 'fundamentalist atheism'. Both of these would require unquestioning adherence to some kind of authority, which by definition atheism doesn't.

As for militant atheism, how many times do we have to go over this? Just because atheists have at last begun to speak in concert they are labelled as some kind of army. Robust debate is not militancy.

Other Comments by PaulJ

7. Comment #56241 by Nails on July 14, 2007 at 3:23 pm

 avatar
McGrath, ... comments: "Whereas Gould at least tries to weigh up the evidence, Dawkins simply offers the atheist equivalent of slick hellfire preaching, substituting turbocharged rhetoric and highly selective manipulation of facts for careful, evidence-based thinking." Dawkins offers surprisingly little scientific analysis, he says.

Can't have read the same book I have then.
RD doesn't give a balanced argument because he doesn't believe there is a balanced argument.
End of.
And the scientific analysis in TGD is careful to avoid repeating his other works. I'm sure I don't have to point out to many of you here that TGD is just a progression in a series of books by the same author, and it is noted in all his work that he refers you to an earlier book for further details to avoid repetition.
Otherwise there would be no paperback copy as each successive book woud be twice the size of the previous...
As the prophet Isaiah put it, all flesh is as grass — the flower fades and the grass withers. But he also had this advice, which we can all take to heart: "Come now, and let us reason together."

Does this mean he's going to come online and join the debate?

Other Comments by Nails

8. Comment #56244 by willbonds on July 14, 2007 at 3:29 pm

The theists argument proceeds with militant terminology; it's only fitting that the vocal theists apply that to us. Are we not their *enemy*?

Other Comments by willbonds

9. Comment #56254 by robzrob on July 14, 2007 at 4:19 pm

Again and again these critics do it: state things which they say authors have said, felt, might have felt, thought, seem to be saying, seem to imply, etc, etc and not specifically referring to them. Why don't they refer? Because the things they say are not there!

Barny Zwartz? More like Barney Rubble.

Other Comments by robzrob

10. Comment #56258 by Stryker on July 14, 2007 at 4:25 pm

Zwartz does touch on a point that I agree with, which is the almost irrational disdain that Dawkins places directly on 'religion'. Personally, I think religion is simply a bi-product, a tip-of-the-iceberg, for underlying sociological and psychological issues. Religion is a cultural element that supports tribalism - it helps to define 'us' and 'them' (Shia's & Sunnis don't try to convert each other - they just want to kill each other for long-standing feuds like Hatfields & McCoys). In addition, we all realize that people use religion as a psychological crutch (guidebook to their lives, tell me what's right & wrong so I don't have to figure it out myself, etc) but even if I could wave a magic wand and make everyone stop believing in the supernatural, the vacuum would quickly fill with something else (like patriotism/nationalism). Perhaps Dawkins hopes to work his way down the iceberg - starting with religion - but I think that if we can address these more fundamental issues that modern religions would dissipate just like their forerunners but w/o some new religion/ideologies taking their place. Dawkins will never convert a true-believer with his arguments - it just serves to draw battle lines. This needs to be addressed more indirectly.

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11. Comment #56266 by robzrob on July 14, 2007 at 4:41 pm

Stryker,

I don't see any vacuum. A lot of people here have replaced going to church with walking the dog, going to car boot sales, garden centres and other harmless things. I don't see patriotism/nationalism or anything nasty taking over.

Other Comments by robzrob

12. Comment #56268 by He-man Daunted World on July 14, 2007 at 5:04 pm

I hope Richard Dawkins replies to this piece

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13. Comment #56272 by marius404 on July 14, 2007 at 5:13 pm

What do we fill the vacuum with after religion is removed? Thats like asking what do we replace cancer with after we are cured.

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14. Comment #56276 by willbonds on July 14, 2007 at 5:31 pm

Robzrob,

You need to get out more and see how people are misbehaving!

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15. Comment #56280 by alovrin on July 14, 2007 at 6:10 pm

 avatar
HERE'S Richard Dawkins, sword flailing, mowing down his foes — all of them, Christian, Muslim, Jew, male or female, old or young. He cannot sheath his sword until the world is cleansed of religion

Distortion No.1
and Melbourne philosopher of psychology Tamas Pataki

WHO? I think this is where it gets personal for Barney.
One might easily picture Dawkins as a puritanical preacher, prowling and peering into living rooms to make sure no one is up to sin, such as teaching religious faith to their children

Distortion No.2
militant fundamentalist atheists

Distortion No.3
Yes, this article is filled with distortions to make a point Barney is of course a Religion editor so he odds are he's probably a believer as well.
And then theres this
Tamaki writes as a scholar, with careful and qualified argumen

I think he means his buddy Tamas Patak.i Maybe they are doing some kind of deal, it all rather strange tho.

Other Comments by alovrin

16. Comment #56283 by Russell Blackford on July 14, 2007 at 6:25 pm

Zwartz is entitled to use passionate language, if he wishes, as we all are, but it seems a bit odd after such a rant to end up with the bit about reasoning together.

There are so many red herrings in the piece that it's difficult to know where to begin. For example, logical positivism has nothing to do with it. Logical positivism was a brave but failed attempt to define the meaning of "meaning". As Zwartz mentions, it was trapped by being self-contradictory, in that it would have ruled out its own doctrines as "meaningless". But contemporary atheists don't rule out talk of God in that way. They simply argue that there is no good reason to believe in any deity that has been postulated so far ... and plenty of reason not to. To the extent that they are metaphysical naturalists, that stance is not based on a theory of meaning like logical positivism.

(*Makes note to self to get a copy of Pataki's book.*)

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

17. Comment #56284 by GodlessHeathen on July 14, 2007 at 6:27 pm

 avatarIf this article proves anything, it proves these apologists have mastered cut-n-paste.

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18. Comment #56285 by wardsie on July 14, 2007 at 6:34 pm

 avatarOh dear. This is such a rant. Barney Zwartz is the religion editor for The Age. I suppose he is breaking out into a sweat because he fears for his livelihood.
His primary complaint appears to be of the style of the proponents. Perhaps he should place his behind on a pew or two.

"Dawkins and many of his followers seem to be resurrecting a short-lived 20th-century scientistic philosophy called logical positivism, which holds that only what you can measure or prove empirically can be called truth. All other discourse is meaningless, especially questions of meaning. It was short-lived, partly because it failed its own test — it couldn't be measured or empirically verified. "

Is this why religion has been so short lived?

Other Comments by wardsie

19. Comment #56290 by geckoman on July 14, 2007 at 7:22 pm

Tend to agree with the thrust of Stryker's comments on this one.

Religion is a mechanism that helps to perpetuate tribalism. Tribalism is now, I imagine, able to be categorised as an instinctive evolutionary hang over from long ago. It may have served a useful purpose once. Now it doesn't, but because of religion and other factors we have not been able to cast it off.

The Celtic Rangers nonsense is an example where religion is used to draw the tribal battle-lines between the residents of the same city. Most of them aren't really religious, but religion is a convenient dividing line.

Were religion removed from the equation in such an example, would the tribalism cease? Probably not. It is so deeply entrenched that another factor would fill its place. Tribalism creates identity and after all it's easier to hate than to channel energy positively. I agree that there are psychological reasons for this; many of the religiously tribalistic have what I belive are called authoritarian personalities, and are easily attracted by divisive and simplistic arguments.

Time will tell if RD and others, by arguing against religion, are only serving to draw new battle lines. It is not I think the case, as Stryker says, that RD will never convert a true beliver with his arguments; a glance at the converts section on this website belies that. Also, RD and others are at the very least raising awareness of the religioulsy motivated horrors carried out by our Governments and policy makers. The separation of religion and state can be protected without converting anyone.

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20. Comment #56294 by OhioAtheist on July 14, 2007 at 7:46 pm

 avatarI had a lengthy post ready to go on this, but I hit back on my browser and it was lost! It was very disheartening.

In any case, the one point I really want to take issue with is McGrath's ridiculous insinuation (repeated time and time again) that atheism is a "world view." It assuredly is not. An atheist can be a liberal, a conservative, a neoconservative, a centrist, a fascist, a Stalinist, a Trotskyite, a utilitarian, a Kantian, a Rawlsian, an emotivist, a moral nihilist, and adhere to any number of other positions, without holding any position that contradicts atheism per se. Atheism is a position on one single issue, and it is no more a "world view" than being a fan of the Harry Potter series. I am astonished at how difficult this concept seems to be for theists to grasp; just because their religion is an all-encompassing system of the world (in theory, at least) doesn't mean our rejection of that religion is similarly systematic.

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21. Comment #56295 by geckoman on July 14, 2007 at 7:50 pm

OhioAtheist

It would have been God's will to make your lengthy post disappear because you were speaking ill of Him.

Sad to reflect that while I joke, many people would believe this.

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22. Comment #56296 by Theocrapcy on July 14, 2007 at 7:53 pm

 avatarThis piece is a study in the straw man fallacy.

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23. Comment #56299 by Robert Maynard on July 14, 2007 at 8:06 pm

 avatarI thought newspapers were supposed to contain reporting. The whole "opinion" thing seems like a manifest disservice to the whole idea of journalism. It should be the job of the reporter to investigate and report and relate a story with the aim of informing readers unfamiliar with the issues. If editors can't do that they should stick to editing.
I got as far as the Michael Ruse thing before exclaiming "This provides no context whatsoever. The man is simply dealing in half-truths, not "grappling with the issues", and I can't figure out why these words are being printed under the banner of a NEWSpaper, rather than some forgotten corner of the blogosphere." (don't bother pointing out that spheres have no corners)

"Dennett", "anti-religious diatribe"?
I am at last reading Breaking the Spell (last book left out of the "four musketeers"), and so far it's just as calm and thoughtful as his other books - it adopts a loose kind of memetic approach and makes the very clean and obvious point that the darwinian success of religious ideas is not an indicator of their fitness for humans, but of their fitness at propagating themselves (though I do miss the footnotes).

Here is the leaked exchange between Ruse and Dennett, so you can go read it yourself
Uncommon Descent: Remarkable exchange between Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett (yeah, you read right - that's William Dembski's blog - Ruse simply gave the exchange to Dembski. Is there possibly a less ambiguous way to declare misplaced loyalties?)

The lesson I got was: Ruse is a crazy s.o.b, and Dennett is interminably polite.

The "disaster" of D & D basically refers to the argument of the framing issue, articulated by Mooney and Nisbet a while back in the Washington Post (http://richarddawkins.net/article,880,n,n), which posits that the so-called New Atheism of Dawkins and co. has dealt a blow to science advocacy by explicitly associating things like evolution with atheism. As Dawkins pointed out in an anecdote in the TGD, the Dover-Kitzmiller case was helped by arguing that affirming evolution does not have to affect ones metaphysical beliefs - even though it.. really should.
There is no escaping the connection between evolution and atheism (or at the very least the seeds of doubt) as far as Dawkins, Dennett are concerned, along with those of us on the side that thinks of the "framing" debate as an exercise in backsliding cowardice.
Dennett puts it with crystal clarity in Darwins Dangerous Idea: mind-first teleology is the antithesis of evolution.
Positing minds at the bottom of evolution is a contradiction of evolution itself. There is simply no getting around this, people!

If that stands as a problem for science advocacy, we'll just have to deal with that by pressing on - not waving our hands and saying "No, no! Evolution does not infringe on a deep conviction of Skyman!"
This in itself would be condescension of the same degree as the "we're too intelligent, but regular people need religion!" argument. It is true that scientists are divided over the "framing" debate, but I do not believe that Ruse is representative of the current - he is representative of a bedfellow appeaser (to use the dreaded sectarian terminology), a shill who happily leaked his personal correspondence to William f'in Dembski to demonstrate.. what, dissent in the "ranks"? Expose the "controversy"? You dumb bastard.

..bad article.

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24. Comment #56311 by Lauregon on July 14, 2007 at 10:50 pm

One of the problems with the debate, as framed by these writers, is it's just a shouting match, and they want the bigger megaphone. - Zwartz


Believers get their knickers in bulging twists over a backpack's worth of atheist books published recently amid galaxies of published believer's books. "Humph! How dare they criticize our beliefs!" believers mutter and shriek. Hmmm. Exactly WHO is it insisting on having the bigger megaphone?

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25. Comment #56317 by BicycleRepairMan on July 15, 2007 at 1:39 am

 avatarI wish to disagree with the idea that science is the answer to everything. In my view, it's more important to say that reasoned inquiry of the provable and demonstrable are more important, and I don't see this and science as the same things. If the scientific method is useful in that process, then good, but that method is only a subset of the act of rational discourse based on sound reasoning and verifiable facts.

Well, this is really play with words, "reasoned inquiry of the provable and demonstrable" is really what Dawkins/Atheists promotes, and it really is a basic description of the "scientific method". And the "scientific method" really is the only option on the table worth considering in my opinion, as opposed to the "Spin the bottle method" that I think is a fitting description of religion.

The problem with these faith-defenders view is that they think the "scientific method" is one that reduces everything down to cynical robotery and white people in coats. The scientific method can be applied to all walks of life, and in every thinkable case, we'd be better off for it. Anyone who can come up with a situation were "Its better if we are unreasonable right now" or "Its better if we dont think or investigate this stuff" is just flatout wrong, yet this is exactly what religion is, suspension of reason.

"I assume, without evidence, that a Palestinian virgin primate gave birth to Gods son, savior of the universe, some 2000 years ago"

Anyone who takes up completely unreasonable positions like this, is an insult to human intelligence.

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26. Comment #56325 by monoape on July 15, 2007 at 3:36 am

 avatarIn case my comment to the author's blog (http://blogs.theage.com.au/thereligiouswrite/archives/2007/07/_well_its_time.html) is not allowed past the moderation queue, I'll post here as well for posterity:

All those fine words and no attempt to engage any of the lucid arguments presented by your antagonists? You simply rely on ad hominem attacks , straw men and waffle.

So many bold assertions, but no evidence to back them up.

Pitiable.

Also, when will the god squad realise they're becoming caricatures of themselves every time they label any atheist who stands up to be counted as "militant", "strident" or "shrill"? If you hope to make some headway, attack the arguments not the man.

And to address what I believe is one of your questions: why am I an angry atheist? Maybe because my (recently departed) prime minister said he would be "judged by a higher power", i.e. his imaginary friend in the sky, in relation to invading another country. Maybe because my taxes are used to fund faith schools in order to brainwash a new generation of children. Maybe because my nine year old niece was incredulous when I told her that a god did not make the earth and all the animals on it. Maybe because the moderate, 'cuddly' religious types legitimise an environment where the not-so-cuddly, 'I'll blow up anyone who doesn't believe what I believe' types are able to grow.

Also, it simply irks me that I see friends and family fooled and deluded by a really quite silly book that purports to have *all* the answers.

Finally, your assertion that "Western atheists thought religion would simply die, but instead it is flourishing."? Do you have faith this is true simply because you say it is? Reality is a little different - http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm. My favourite conclusion from the report: "A USA Today/Gallup Poll in 2002-JAN showed that almost half of American adults appear to be alienated from organized religion. If current trends continue, most adults will not call themselves religious within a few years.". A new Age Of Enlightenment? It can't arrive soon enough!

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27. Comment #56326 by Nefrubyr on July 15, 2007 at 3:43 am

 avatarTwo points in this article stood out to me:
Alister McGrath in The Dawkins Delusion says increasing atheist stridency stems partly from fear that atheism is failing, and that The God Delusion is more designed to reassure atheists whose faith is faltering than to engage fairly or rigorously with believers.

I think we should call this the "McGrath Delusion" - the idea that atheism is simply a rebellion against a particular religion, usually his, and that an atheist's faltering faith will inevitably lead him back to the god he is determined not to believe in.

Utter nonsense. I'm as likely to start believing in one god as any other, they're all the same to me. I read McGrath's "The Twilight of Atheism" and the entire book is founded on this misguided assumption that atheism is some sort of movement to destroy the church which will eventually go out of fashion.

Second:
He quotes a leaked email from leading atheist philosopher Michael Ruse last year to Daniel Dennett, author of another anti-religious diatribe, calling Dennett and Dawkins "absolute disasters" in the fight against intelligent design.

"What we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues — neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and engage with the ideas ..."

And there I was thinking that intelligent design had nothing to do with Christianity, but was a competing scientific theory with its own merits. Did somebody just claim that the two are somehow connected?

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28. Comment #56327 by steve99 on July 15, 2007 at 4:02 am

 avatar
Time will tell if RD and others, by arguing against religion, are only serving to draw new battle lines.


I hope they do. The new battle lines need to be drawn. So many people don't realise the nastiness and dogmatism of supposedly moderate religion. For example, I was shocked at the stance of Anglican leaders in attempting to resist recent legislation in the UK which gave more equality to same-sex couples. Even Dawkins has fallen into this trap, recently calling the Chief Rabbi a reasonable fellow, when he (the Rabbi obviously!) has reactionary homophobic views.

I don't think conversion of any religious to atheism matters that much right now. What matters is exposing the nastiness of most religions, and embarassing their leaders into getting out and staying out of public debates and politics.

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29. Comment #56330 by Logicel on July 15, 2007 at 5:12 am

 avatar16. Comment #56283 by Russell Blackford on July 14, 2007 at 6:25 pm
avatarZwartz is entitled to use passionate language, if he wishes, as we all are, but it seems a bit odd after such a rant to end up with the bit about reasoning together.
______

This is the aspect that gave me the chills--the usual logical fallacies, strawmen (lost count, but it must have at least reached three strawmen, which is the minimum number allowing Dr. Benway/Tuffy--the potent pooper of a tufted titmouse--to poop on this author with impunity), and ad homs are par for the course, so no surprise there. However, after not responding to atheists' arguments, but rather to the way they frame or in which style they present their opposition to religious superstitions, and/or shockingly misunderstanding atheist arguments, the author then suggests that the object of his rant needs to 'reason' with him and theists.

I have no intent or reason to communicate with this author or any other theist who does not make an effort to respond to the content of atheist arguments. Spending their time focusing on style/framing of the atheist argument, and/or mangling and twisting the atheist position beyond recognition, they mistakenly think this tactic will weaken the atheist argument and lessen the focus on the reality that non-evidential faith allows religious superstitions to support and encourage dangerous activities, that there is no significant evidence as to religion being true or doing anything particularly crucial for our well being, and that religion needs to be subjected to the same scrutiny as any other activity or belief.

However, I am sure that there are many other topics with which I could discuss with Zwartz and other theists, even if they are unable to respond with intellectual honesty to the atheist stance against religious superstitions.

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30. Comment #56334 by Enlightenme.. on July 15, 2007 at 6:06 am

 avatarGWB: 'this war is still winable'
AMcG: 'atheism is failing'
Zwartz: 'scientistic philosophy' (?)

Stupid religionistical twit.
Spheres have no corners :)

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

31. Comment #56335 by bouwe on July 15, 2007 at 6:12 am

Good ol' Catholic Zwartz...you should have seen his original review of TGD in the same paper...one long ad hominem attack, virtually labelling RD a "bigot".....yeah, sure Barney, why don't you look in the mirror? Doesn't even address the issues, doesn't even bother. Pathetic.

He has a blogsite at the same paper. About a month ago he posted a peurile "send up" video "The Dawkins Delusion" where an impersonator questions the existence of Dawkins...oh, I get it! ha ha. Really hard-hitting stuff (not).

I'd have some respect if he demostrated that he understands what RD is talking about. Instead he has the Double Delusion, the regular dose of God Delusion, plus the extra McGrath Delusion (27. Comment #56326 by Nefrubyr, good point).

I'm sure not all readers of the Age are dumb enough to put up with this sort of crap. Some would have read TGD and actually absorbed its contents , rather than Barney, skimming over it while mumbling "bigot" under his breath, then rushing to his precious McGrath to "frame" and filter what he has just read to maintain his delusion (and his livelihood, he's the religion reporter, after all). What utter drivel.

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32. Comment #56353 by automath on July 15, 2007 at 8:31 am

 avatarAh the same old christian hypocrisy, everytime they put pen to paper these days they prove the atheist and their arguments against religion to be wholly correct.

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33. Comment #56354 by dvespertilio on July 15, 2007 at 8:53 am

As offensive as I find some of Mr Svartz' remarks to be, I do feel that he has a point to make in the several final paragraphs of his opinion piece. He is calling for a calming of passions and useless rhetoric among all the parties involved in this highly complex and multi-faceted global debate. Similar to remarks made recently by E.O. Wilson in his interview w/ Bill Moyers (it's at Moyers site, as well as posted here at the Dawkins site.). As both are trying to say, one in a secular humanist way (Wilson),and the other (Svartz) from a religious/philosophical perspective, (at least as I interpret it), the time has come, is, indeed, almost dangerously past, for ALL of us on this planet to get down to the difficult but vitally necessary task of addressing the pressing problems that we and all species on this planet, face, i.e., global warming, inequity of resource distributions, weapons of mass destruction, inequities in distribution of knowledge and power, etc.

I feel that Wilson says it better than Svartz in that he states, in his interview w/ Moyers, that he could, now, go and reason w/ any countryside Christian pastor, and they would, he asserts, arrive at a common ground for agreement. He says, let's put metaphysics and epistemology aside for the moment and address our common ground, your Creation and our Evolved World. Can we not reasonably agree that the destruction of the created world is not something either of us wishes to countenance? What are we going to do to address these problems that beset the entire planet? In this way Wilson engages (and is actively engaging as the Moyers interview shows)the more moderate/rational/reasonable religious believers and true dialog about pragmatic solutions to our common problems (AS A PLANET)begins to emerge.

Anyway, that's my view on this.

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34. Comment #56360 by MrEmpirical on July 15, 2007 at 9:33 am

"Let us reason together".

Wow, some people seem not to have the ability to detect self-contradictions in their own writing. It's sad, really.

If Zwartz wants to label Dawkins et al. as dogmatic fundamentalists, surely it wouldn't hurt to provide some substantiating in-context quotations from these authors' works???

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35. Comment #56376 by steve99 on July 15, 2007 at 11:54 am

 avatar
He is calling for a calming of passions and useless rhetoric among all the parties involved in this highly complex and multi-faceted global debate.


I find it somewhat of a problem to remain truly calm when major world-wide religions are working to oppress me because of my sexuality.

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36. Comment #56389 by Enlightenme.. on July 15, 2007 at 3:04 pm

 avatarRe; 20. Comment #56294 by OhioAtheist on July 14, 2007
"...In any case, the one point I really want to take issue with is McGrath's ridiculous insinuation (repeated time and time again) that atheism is a "world view." It assuredly is not. ...
...I am astonished at how difficult this concept seems to be for theists to grasp; just because their religion is an all-encompassing system of the world (in theory, at least) doesn't mean our rejection of that religion is similarly systematic."

I had to think on your post Ohio atheist, and I think I have to disagree.
Maybe being bought up as an Anlican has some bearing on this!

Once I came to feel that there is no divine purpose behind either my, or the universe's existence, it radically changed my entire worldview.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

37. Comment #56401 by dvespertilio on July 15, 2007 at 3:42 pm

Re: 35 Comment # 56376 by Steven99:
I also have found it difficult to be sexually oppressed over many years by an institutional religion. However, it has been my long experience that blatant anger and poorly thought out, emotionally charged rhetoric generally repel others and impede rational discourse. You know the saying, "You catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar." (Of course that actually depends on the species of flies HA HA!), but my
point is that if we do not maintain a modicum of decency, civility and decorum with our interlocutors, than we only impede genuine communication and problem-solving. It is very difficult, indeed, to keep highly charged emotions of any kind, positive or negative, out of rational discourse, and I am not saying that that is what we should do. But if we do not extend to each other the courtesies, freedoms and respect that we expect for ourselves, how are we any different from those who pillory us verbally? Again, you will note in my original posting that I am speaking of addressing moderate or rational believers of whatever stripe. Obviously fringe fanatics of any stripe or kind are totally different. People who attack, persecute, maim, kill, etc others are outside the boundaries of any sane society and they should be contained by all rational societies by whatever means prove most effective. If they cannot be reasoned with, then we must defend ourselves, and if attacked we must use whatever force deemed necessary and prudent to disarm or destroy them. But that is called warfare. There are many other options in relatively free societies. If you live in one, you always have the option for rational discourse, no matter the emotional difficulties that entails. I wouldn't say that it's easy.

But I do know what it's like.


Regards

Other Comments by dvespertilio

38. Comment #56404 by CJ22 on July 15, 2007 at 4:02 pm

 avatar@Enlightenme - are you sure you didn't just discard a false one? Did you actively replace it with a new one? When I take my shoes off at night, I couldn't in any sense be said to be changing my shoes. Just a thought.

Anyway, I'm happy for the religious ranters to get as hot under the dog-collar as they like. It's called giving them enough rope. If ad hominem is all they got, then that will soon start to become obvious to even those who picked the religious side of the argument.

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39. Comment #56434 by timD on July 15, 2007 at 6:05 pm

Dear bouwe, I've read the pages at the Age blog started by Barney and he's getting a right ole kicking as he should. In fact, I've only spotted him responding to people who question a couple of his 'facts'. I find that notion of 'reasoning together' amusing. It is as if BArney is desparete for his decision to follow a faith to be recognised as intellecutally legitimate and allowed in the club.

Other Comments by timD

40. Comment #56467 by DNAtheist on July 15, 2007 at 11:46 pm

 avatarI agree with Zwartz. Anyone who rejects the existence of Thor without evidence to back it up, or who treat Thor-worshippers with disdainful terms like 'silly' or 'deluded' is a militant, dogmatic, fundamentalist.

Hmm. Does anyone know whether Zwartz accepts the existence of Thor?

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41. Comment #56477 by Enlightenme.. on July 16, 2007 at 1:11 am

 avatarRe; 38. Comment #56404 by CJ22 on July 15, 2007

@Enlightenme - are you sure you didn't just discard a false one? Did you actively replace it with a new one? When I take my shoes off at night, I couldn't in any sense be said to be changing my shoes. Just a thought.

Worldview 1: This life is simply a transit to eternal destiny.

Worldview 1 junked.

Worldview 2: I guess is get busy living rather than having been busy dying.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

42. Comment #56479 by Downunder on July 16, 2007 at 1:24 am

 avatarI wished Zwartz would use his Age to get stuck into the fanatic Jews keeping-on fueling the middle east mayhem.

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43. Comment #56488 by stephenray on July 16, 2007 at 2:55 am

The point is this.

Any discussion must proceed on the basis that each party has the right to a point of view, and to have that point of view *initially* taken seriously.

Discusser #1: "I have an idea about the greatest tennis player whoever lived."

Discusser #2: "Oh, Ok. I'd say it was Bjorn Borg. Who do you think it was?"

Discusser #1: "Lenny Bruce."

Now, that discussion need not go any farther. The idea that Lenny Bruce was a great tennis player is fatuous, and no-one needs to go to the trouble of investigating his sports career in detail in order to refute the suggestion. You simply respond 'Uh-huh. Hey, how about that global warming?'

Discusser #2 does not need to refute this bizarre assertion. He can simply reject it.

And it's the same situation with those who claim there is a supernatural sky being who guides the universe through every day. We can just say: "Fyeah, right!" and move on.

Of course, they are going to whinge about not being taken seriously, but hey! They shouldn't make preposterous assertions.

Other Comments by stephenray

44. Comment #56499 by Philip1978 on July 16, 2007 at 3:51 am

 avatarNooooo Mr Dawkin's, you evil evil man, wanting to take my god away and call HIM naughty names!

I really laugh at the way that the Professor is made to sound shrill and nasty even though that quote he used is the nastiest thing typed into the God Delusion! I love it when people get offended about the invisible being insulted! Does his god
really need this much protection from those naughty atheists who say bad things about his existence and character? There he is quoting McGrath saying we are worried and that atheism is falling, what a load of rubbish! I would say people are becoming more aware than ever that there is now a bigger voice for atheism than there ever has been, this guy is definitely worried about that!

stephenray you are right, they should not make such preposterous assertions!
Cheers, Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

45. Comment #56521 by logical on July 16, 2007 at 5:33 am

 avatarAfter being called "militarist", "aggressive", etc. for nearly 50 years now, from the very first glimpse of the idea not to submit to religious nonsense, and the first refusal to strive to live up to belief΄s (or better the believers΄)demands I cannot manage more than a tired little smile to this. Another one...
But unlike in my childhood the religious seem to have lost the power to beat me up.

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46. Comment #56571 by newskin on July 16, 2007 at 12:48 pm

 avatarI don't understand this idea that there is more to be discovered in Christianity through indepth study. Surely everything that is not in the bible is the word of man, bearing his interpretation and is therefore essentially worthless.
As any good scientist knows, you reference original primary source material, in this case the bible. It seems the reason this argument is employed is because most Christians cannot bring themselves to beleive the literal content of the bible and must console themselves with some hidden (deeply hidden) inner meaning...

Other Comments by newskin

47. Comment #56584 by Dr Benway on July 16, 2007 at 1:31 pm

 avatarWhat does the author of this article believe about God, Jesus, etc., and what is his evidence?

Put up or shut up.

Meanwhile...

Poop!

Other Comments by Dr Benway

48. Comment #59119 by D'Arcy on July 27, 2007 at 12:52 pm

 avatarMy previous posting went up the electronic Swannee, so 2nd time round.

Zwartz says: "No religion has all the answers".
I say: "All religions have no answers".

Enough said.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

49. Comment #73293 by hakija on September 24, 2007 at 4:36 pm

 avatar"God Delusion" has done more than embolden long time atheists. It has forced folks like me, who as believers, didn't know we didn't really believe. Dawkins and friends - who have given us several great books recently - have sought us out and are helping more and more of us to find our way out of the mist of superstition and fear and onto the path of rationalism. Dawkins makes it clear that it is good to be an atheist. His recent championing of the "Bright" movement is evidence he is out for more converts not just out to comfort the like minded.

Recently, the Malaysian government enacted a law forbidding Muslims to leave Islam, to make freedom of conscience a "crimethink". There must be a trend out of Islam that concerns the clerics who hold sway over the majority of Malay. Otherwise, why the law?

In the west, we read of Muslims wishing to moderate or abandon their religion altogether.

At least "God Delusion" has forced us all to reevaluate what we do and don't believe and boldly take a stand.

Other Comments by hakija

50. Comment #73794 by Sinbad on September 26, 2007 at 7:52 am

 avatarThere are no such things as 'atheist dogma' or 'fundamentalist atheism'. Both of these would require unquestioning adherence to some kind of authority, which by definition atheism doesn't.

"Fundamentalism" needn't be viewed that way.

http://someonesaygrace.blogspot.com/2007/06/ignominiously-defining-fundamentalism.html

What do we fill the vacuum with after religion is removed? Thats like asking what do we replace cancer with after we are cured.

Except for the fact that officially atheist governments have this curious penchant for murdering their citizens in huge numbers....

In any case, the one point I really want to take issue with is McGrath's ridiculous insinuation (repeated time and time again) that atheism is a "world view." It assuredly is not.

Traditionally, it was (at least when I was in college), with an unholy trinity of Darwin, Marx and Freud. That's why the traditional definitions (e.g.,http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/) include a specific denial rather than a mere lack of belief default position (When I stop thinking about this stuff and fixate on, for example, football, do I become an atheist since I have no then-current god-belief?). Now that Marx and Freud have been well discredited I understand the retreat to a default position (it's easier to destroy than to create after all), but it's still depressing to be defined by what you're not rather than by what you are, don't you think? Finally, some of your own (so to speak) disagree rather vehemently:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/09/we_passionate_atheists.php

Now, that discussion need not go any farther. The idea that Lenny Bruce was a great tennis player is fatuous, and no-one needs to go to the trouble of investigating his sports career in detail in order to refute the suggestion. You simply respond 'Uh-huh. Hey, how about that global warming?'

Not if millions of tennis fans, including most recognized experts, all think that Lenny tops Borg (and even Laver). Communism (like the political Left generally) was and is bankrupt in every way. But it wasn't defeated by flip ripostes. It was met head-on and treated seriously, despite the obvious silliness of the Left as a whole.

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