










The fundamentalist delusionThe God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser;
a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
2. Comment #56220 by DV82XL on July 14, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Same old, same old. Atheism is a religion therefor it can be dismissed by the same arguments it turns on faith. Wrong as usual.3. Comment #56222 by roach on July 14, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Yes. Let us reason together. I'll go first.4. Comment #56230 by bluebird on July 14, 2007 at 2:50 pm
5. Comment #56236 by willbonds on July 14, 2007 at 3:06 pm
I find it interesting that Mr. Zwartz has seen his comments published here. It at least shows a willingness to have the argument on Dawkins' own turf.6. Comment #56240 by PaulJ on July 14, 2007 at 3:22 pm
7. Comment #56241 by Nails on July 14, 2007 at 3:23 pm
McGrath, ... comments: "Whereas Gould at least tries to weigh up the evidence, Dawkins simply offers the atheist equivalent of slick hellfire preaching, substituting turbocharged rhetoric and highly selective manipulation of facts for careful, evidence-based thinking." Dawkins offers surprisingly little scientific analysis, he says.
As the prophet Isaiah put it, all flesh is as grass the flower fades and the grass withers. But he also had this advice, which we can all take to heart: "Come now, and let us reason together."
8. Comment #56244 by willbonds on July 14, 2007 at 3:29 pm
The theists argument proceeds with militant terminology; it's only fitting that the vocal theists apply that to us. Are we not their *enemy*?9. Comment #56254 by robzrob on July 14, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Again and again these critics do it: state things which they say authors have said, felt, might have felt, thought, seem to be saying, seem to imply, etc, etc and not specifically referring to them. Why don't they refer? Because the things they say are not there!10. Comment #56258 by Stryker on July 14, 2007 at 4:25 pm
Zwartz does touch on a point that I agree with, which is the almost irrational disdain that Dawkins places directly on 'religion'. Personally, I think religion is simply a bi-product, a tip-of-the-iceberg, for underlying sociological and psychological issues. Religion is a cultural element that supports tribalism - it helps to define 'us' and 'them' (Shia's & Sunnis don't try to convert each other - they just want to kill each other for long-standing feuds like Hatfields & McCoys). In addition, we all realize that people use religion as a psychological crutch (guidebook to their lives, tell me what's right & wrong so I don't have to figure it out myself, etc) but even if I could wave a magic wand and make everyone stop believing in the supernatural, the vacuum would quickly fill with something else (like patriotism/nationalism). Perhaps Dawkins hopes to work his way down the iceberg - starting with religion - but I think that if we can address these more fundamental issues that modern religions would dissipate just like their forerunners but w/o some new religion/ideologies taking their place. Dawkins will never convert a true-believer with his arguments - it just serves to draw battle lines. This needs to be addressed more indirectly.11. Comment #56266 by robzrob on July 14, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Stryker,12. Comment #56268 by He-man Daunted World on July 14, 2007 at 5:04 pm
I hope Richard Dawkins replies to this piece13. Comment #56272 by marius404 on July 14, 2007 at 5:13 pm
What do we fill the vacuum with after religion is removed? Thats like asking what do we replace cancer with after we are cured.14. Comment #56276 by willbonds on July 14, 2007 at 5:31 pm
Robzrob,15. Comment #56280 by alovrin on July 14, 2007 at 6:10 pm
HERE'S Richard Dawkins, sword flailing, mowing down his foes all of them, Christian, Muslim, Jew, male or female, old or young. He cannot sheath his sword until the world is cleansed of religion
and Melbourne philosopher of psychology Tamas Pataki
One might easily picture Dawkins as a puritanical preacher, prowling and peering into living rooms to make sure no one is up to sin, such as teaching religious faith to their children
militant fundamentalist atheists
Tamaki writes as a scholar, with careful and qualified argumen
16. Comment #56283 by Russell Blackford on July 14, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Zwartz is entitled to use passionate language, if he wishes, as we all are, but it seems a bit odd after such a rant to end up with the bit about reasoning together.17. Comment #56284 by GodlessHeathen on July 14, 2007 at 6:27 pm
18. Comment #56285 by wardsie on July 14, 2007 at 6:34 pm
19. Comment #56290 by geckoman on July 14, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Tend to agree with the thrust of Stryker's comments on this one.20. Comment #56294 by OhioAtheist on July 14, 2007 at 7:46 pm
21. Comment #56295 by geckoman on July 14, 2007 at 7:50 pm
OhioAtheist22. Comment #56296 by Theocrapcy on July 14, 2007 at 7:53 pm
23. Comment #56299 by Robert Maynard on July 14, 2007 at 8:06 pm
24. Comment #56311 by Lauregon on July 14, 2007 at 10:50 pm
One of the problems with the debate, as framed by these writers, is it's just a shouting match, and they want the bigger megaphone. - Zwartz25. Comment #56317 by BicycleRepairMan on July 15, 2007 at 1:39 am
26. Comment #56325 by monoape on July 15, 2007 at 3:36 am
27. Comment #56326 by Nefrubyr on July 15, 2007 at 3:43 am
Alister McGrath in The Dawkins Delusion says increasing atheist stridency stems partly from fear that atheism is failing, and that The God Delusion is more designed to reassure atheists whose faith is faltering than to engage fairly or rigorously with believers.
He quotes a leaked email from leading atheist philosopher Michael Ruse last year to Daniel Dennett, author of another anti-religious diatribe, calling Dennett and Dawkins "absolute disasters" in the fight against intelligent design.
"What we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and engage with the ideas ..."
28. Comment #56327 by steve99 on July 15, 2007 at 4:02 am
Time will tell if RD and others, by arguing against religion, are only serving to draw new battle lines.
29. Comment #56330 by Logicel on July 15, 2007 at 5:12 am
30. Comment #56334 by Enlightenme.. on July 15, 2007 at 6:06 am
31. Comment #56335 by bouwe on July 15, 2007 at 6:12 am
Good ol' Catholic Zwartz...you should have seen his original review of TGD in the same paper...one long ad hominem attack, virtually labelling RD a "bigot".....yeah, sure Barney, why don't you look in the mirror? Doesn't even address the issues, doesn't even bother. Pathetic.32. Comment #56353 by automath on July 15, 2007 at 8:31 am
33. Comment #56354 by dvespertilio on July 15, 2007 at 8:53 am
As offensive as I find some of Mr Svartz' remarks to be, I do feel that he has a point to make in the several final paragraphs of his opinion piece. He is calling for a calming of passions and useless rhetoric among all the parties involved in this highly complex and multi-faceted global debate. Similar to remarks made recently by E.O. Wilson in his interview w/ Bill Moyers (it's at Moyers site, as well as posted here at the Dawkins site.). As both are trying to say, one in a secular humanist way (Wilson),and the other (Svartz) from a religious/philosophical perspective, (at least as I interpret it), the time has come, is, indeed, almost dangerously past, for ALL of us on this planet to get down to the difficult but vitally necessary task of addressing the pressing problems that we and all species on this planet, face, i.e., global warming, inequity of resource distributions, weapons of mass destruction, inequities in distribution of knowledge and power, etc.34. Comment #56360 by MrEmpirical on July 15, 2007 at 9:33 am
"Let us reason together".35. Comment #56376 by steve99 on July 15, 2007 at 11:54 am
He is calling for a calming of passions and useless rhetoric among all the parties involved in this highly complex and multi-faceted global debate.
36. Comment #56389 by Enlightenme.. on July 15, 2007 at 3:04 pm
37. Comment #56401 by dvespertilio on July 15, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Re: 35 Comment # 56376 by Steven99:38. Comment #56404 by CJ22 on July 15, 2007 at 4:02 pm
39. Comment #56434 by timD on July 15, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Dear bouwe, I've read the pages at the Age blog started by Barney and he's getting a right ole kicking as he should. In fact, I've only spotted him responding to people who question a couple of his 'facts'. I find that notion of 'reasoning together' amusing. It is as if BArney is desparete for his decision to follow a faith to be recognised as intellecutally legitimate and allowed in the club.40. Comment #56467 by DNAtheist on July 15, 2007 at 11:46 pm
41. Comment #56477 by Enlightenme.. on July 16, 2007 at 1:11 am
42. Comment #56479 by Downunder on July 16, 2007 at 1:24 am
43. Comment #56488 by stephenray on July 16, 2007 at 2:55 am
The point is this.44. Comment #56499 by Philip1978 on July 16, 2007 at 3:51 am
45. Comment #56521 by logical on July 16, 2007 at 5:33 am
46. Comment #56571 by newskin on July 16, 2007 at 12:48 pm
47. Comment #56584 by Dr Benway on July 16, 2007 at 1:31 pm
48. Comment #59119 by D'Arcy on July 27, 2007 at 12:52 pm
49. Comment #73293 by hakija on September 24, 2007 at 4:36 pm
50. Comment #73794 by Sinbad on September 26, 2007 at 7:52 am
1. Comment #56215 by PrimeNumbers on July 14, 2007 at 2:06 pm
But quite frankly, it's wonderful to see the stupid christians on the defensive.
Other Comments by PrimeNumbers