Monday, July 16, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version

Kenya: The Death of Religion And Rise of Atheism in the West

by Peter Odoyo, AllAfrica.com

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://allafrica.com/stories/200707160152.html

AS A MEMBER OF THE WORLD Council on e-Parliament, I have, in the last six weeks, travelled to several Western capitals including Brussels, Paris, Helsinki, London, Bonn and New York.

In all these cities, I spent time listening to radio, watching television and reading. Slowly, I was struck by the recurring theme of what, to my mind, is the slow death of religion in the West. The signs were everywhere.

The rise of atheism is being spearheaded by the most learned people. Renowned academics at Oxford University and in the Ivy League American universities are publishing books that propagate atheism and vilify religion.

In fact, the very concept of God is under fire. The hottest books on the New York best-seller list today are based on the theme that religion is a major source of evil in the world. One of them is entitled God is Not Great, Religion Poisons Everything by Christopher Hitchens, and God's Delusions by Prof Richard Dawkins -- both self-declared atheists.

PROF DAWKINS IS A KENYA-BORN scholar based at Oxford University. He has won several awards. He has books in similar vein like A Devil's Chaplain. Mr Hitchens was born in 1949 and writes for several magazines like The Wall Street Journal, Vanity Fair, and The Atlantic.

He attended Oxford University and was a well-known communist sympathiser. He has published widely.

In each of the cities I visited, I saw many empty, locked or closed churches. I saw high crosses on rooftops of what were once churches but are today a mix of theatres, cinemas, bars, cyber-cafes, lodgings, and nightclubs

Having been brought up on strict Christian teachings, my faith was assaulted daily. "Religion is a poisoner", Prof Dawkins declares in his book "I hope those religious readers who open the book will have become atheists by the time they put it down".

Hitchens states boldly: "Religion is man-made. Religion poisons everything". Both authors ventilate fully instances when barbarism, violence, savagery, intolerance and injustice sanctioned by the church caused misery to mankind.

Terrorism, the American far-right fundamentalism, the religious wars of Northern Ireland, the crusades, the inquisition,__ the suppressors of freedom and thought, and the justifiers of dictatorship, mass murderers and serial killers have all found refuge in religion.

Prof Dawkins describes the God of the Old Testament as "petty, unjust, unforgiving and a control freak". He adds the God is "misogynist, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, megalomaniac and a malevolent bully".

When I read several of the tabloids in the cities, I found further examples of assaults on the basic tenets of the Bible. Women legally marrying women, and men legally marrying men. Superstars were the most notorious or, perhaps, the most visible.

Is this decadence or modernity? I have seen jealous men fighting in bars over other men and women killing one another over love for other women. Where will the children come from? Will the idea of natural fathers and natural mothers ever exist again in the West?

At the technical level, I found other attacks on God through the direction scientific research is taking, especially in such areas as stem research, which today is able to create man without the reproductive process of egg and sperm, but through a cell that duplicates itself.

Obviously, this is contrary to all the teachings in the Bible and points to a future where the West will be able to create, say, super-soldiers or to recreate the likes of Albert Einstein.

Sometimes I wonder whether there is a conspiracy between scientists and the gay community. Is this how the women married to women and the men married to men hope to create? Is scientific research driving the march of atheism and death of religion in the West?

DESPITE THE ATTACK ON RELigion by renowned authors and the high sale of their books, one cannot lose sight of the enormous good that religion has done in such areas as generosity, self-sacrifice, and love for mankind.

The authors cannot satisfy me on the bankruptcy of religion since so many people believe in God while in their opinion there is no God to believe in.

And where are the intellectual titans of the Christian religion? Why are they not speaking out on this assault?

The few voices like that of Peter Lewis who writes for the Independent newspaper of London (circulation 500,000 papers per day) are drowned out by the aggressive atheists who sell over five million copies of their books worldwide.

Mr Odoyo is the MP for Nyakach and a member of the World e-Parliament.

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1. Comment #56563 by robert s on July 16, 2007 at 12:33 pm

He manages to get the title of both TGD and GNG wrong.

He seems to think that it will soon be illegal for men to marry, or have sex with, women. As far as I'm aware no such legislation is currently being considered anywhere in Europe or North America.

He seems to think cells duplicating themselves is a new thing that's only possible through science.

He's worried that cloning will create super-soldiers (I'd be much more worried about remote-controlled and autonomous fighting machines - clones are still people, but no-one's going to be marching in the streets to bring home our brave UAV's).

And he paints the Independent as the last, lone voice of Christianity in the West, being "drowned out" by the sales of hard-cover books.

The rest is just too silly to comment on.

Other Comments by robert s

2. Comment #56569 by Devolution on July 16, 2007 at 12:45 pm

It's nice to see that the literary work of 5th graders is now being placed on this site.

Other Comments by Devolution

3. Comment #56574 by The author on July 16, 2007 at 1:00 pm

I hope this wasn't the best example of journalism Nairobi has to offer.

Other Comments by The author

4. Comment #56576 by Promii on July 16, 2007 at 1:02 pm

The gay science conspiracy bit gave me a bit of a chuckle.

Other Comments by Promii

5. Comment #56579 by Friend Giskard on July 16, 2007 at 1:07 pm

Peter Odoyo fancies men.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

6. Comment #56580 by robert s on July 16, 2007 at 1:07 pm

You're worried about journalism? I'm more worried that one or more of the many 'parliaments' and 'councils' this guy is apparently a member of might have some kind of legislative authority.

Other Comments by robert s

7. Comment #56585 by Jiten on July 16, 2007 at 1:32 pm

Richard Dawkins "was a well-known communist sympathiser".

Does anyone know if this is true?

Other Comments by Jiten

8. Comment #56587 by Quetzalcoatl on July 16, 2007 at 1:36 pm

The article claims Hitchens is the sympathiser, not Dawkins. And I don't know if it's true.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

9. Comment #56589 by fallenone on July 16, 2007 at 1:39 pm

'And where are the intellectual titans of the Christian religion? Why are they not speaking out on this assault?'

What Titans, and what can they say?

Other Comments by fallenone

10. Comment #56590 by MartinSGill on July 16, 2007 at 1:40 pm

Is this decadence or modernity? I have seen jealous men fighting in bars over other men and women killing one another over love for other women. Where will the children come from? Will the idea of natural fathers and natural mothers ever exist again in the West?

I've seen men killing men over women. I've seen women killing women over men. When will the killing stop and the loving begin?

He's either extremely naive, or deliberately set himself the task of scaremongering.

I'd like to point out that the massive influx of homosexuals he sees have always been there, the only difference is that unlike his native country we don't discriminate against them to the point where they are in fear of their lives and must hide in shadows.

Wouldn't it be a outrageously funny if it turned out that Jesus never married because he was gay, and that his disciples (all men) were really his harem? All that talk about marriage was just a major smoke screen. I'm sure that stone tablet is just out there waiting to be found.

Homosexuality was such an epidemic and insidious thing in biblical times that the religious dedicated large passages to vilifying them.

The irony is, that despite rampant religious anti-homosexual scare-mongering there are more people living now in just one of the world's largest cities than inhabited the entire planet in biblical times. Somehow I don't think the human race is doomed.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

11. Comment #56591 by Jiten on July 16, 2007 at 1:40 pm

My mistake.

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12. Comment #56594 by hasty toweling on July 16, 2007 at 1:44 pm

"...the intellectual titans of religion?"

????!!!!!

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13. Comment #56596 by Quetzalcoatl on July 16, 2007 at 1:48 pm

When he speaks of titans, clearly he means the Pope. His every footfall shakes the earth, and his many proclamations have the people cowering in, er, indifference. Maybe he means someone else.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

14. Comment #56597 by Goldy on July 16, 2007 at 1:52 pm

The only mesage I got from this is that the author is a homophobe. Religion keeps gays at bay, it seems, and encourages men to have sex with women. As an afterthought, he says religion (for that I take he meant Christianity) is nice and makes people do nice things.
I shall have to look up this e-Parliament he is a member of.

Other Comments by Goldy

15. Comment #56604 by Corylus on July 16, 2007 at 2:09 pm

This is actually a very interesting article from a psychological viewpoint.

Extreme naivety and bigotry in one article. Moral fury combined with a sense of sad disappointment (Dawkins, born in KENYA writes such things!??). Innocence and ignorance in one tidy package.

We all see the worst points when we travel abroad; we like to look down on others. This man is no different. (I admit I too have been guilty of this, but I do try to understand and control this tendency and only condemn when I have seen all sides)

He sees Churches turned into nightclubs, theatres and bars - this happens I grant you, but many more churches are turned into houses than dens of iniquity. (What's wrong with nightclubs, theatres and bars anyway? People enjoying themselves???) There is even one turned into a library near me. I admit this pleases me :)

He finds it reprehensible that men fight over other men in bars - something tells me that he would deem it 'only natural' when men fight over women.

He will go home, satisfied in his own sense of moral superiority, and (I agree with Robert S on this one) work hard towards enacting all manner of laws...

Other Comments by Corylus

16. Comment #56606 by CJ22 on July 16, 2007 at 2:17 pm

If he's seen all that, one has to wonder why he's hanging out in those sorts of bars.

Other Comments by CJ22

17. Comment #56607 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on July 16, 2007 at 2:17 pm

I think he may mean these guys : http://www.e-parl.net/eparliament/general.do?action=contact. I've actually had a bit to do with them and fired off the following note :

Hi Guys!

Please tell me that the homophobic moron writing this article is not actually associated with this e-parliament?

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1421,Kenya-The-Death-of-Religion-And-Rise-of-Atheism-in-the-West,Peter-Odoyo-AllAfricacom#56597

This is not my idea of global governance not by a long shot.

Regards,

Brian Coughlan

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

18. Comment #56610 by hoops mccann on July 16, 2007 at 2:24 pm

"The article claims Hitchens is the sympathiser, not Dawkins. And I don't know if it's true."

Hitchens is a former Trotskyist. Trotskyists are not known for their sympathy for the former Soviet Union. Trotsky himself was murdered by Stalin for not accepting the direction that the Russian revolution was taking in the 1920s.

Other Comments by hoops mccann

19. Comment #56612 by D'Arcy on July 16, 2007 at 2:33 pm

As usual, the existence of the "church" and the omnipotent creator is assumed without question. What else are churches for but to turn them into flats, nightclubs and libraries (for the devout of course).

We should remember that things are different in Nairobi where you will be very wealthy if your toilet flushes into a main sewer, or if you own a digital camera.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

20. Comment #56613 by _J_ on July 16, 2007 at 2:34 pm

Hmm.

I kind of suspect it'll be a long time before it makes any sense to talk about atheism in East Africa.

I'm not trying to be nationalistically patronising here, by the way. But the one place I've been where I absolutely would not even raise the idea of atheism was a church in rural Tanzania I visited last summer. In that community, religion had such a powerful function in bringing people together and giving them something to celebrate. (I vividly remember the way prayers were made. Couldn't understand the Swahili, but just the tone. Those people really believe you need to make god hear you.)

Obviously, if I could wave my magic wand (I don't have a magic wand (stop sniggering)) and take the whole world all the way to happy, well-informed atheism in an instant, that would be one thing.

But, to talk to those people I met last year and suggest, even to one of them, on their own, in friendly conversation: 'You know, have you ever considered that Mungu [god] might just be made up?' Sorry. I've neither the heart nor the stomach for it.

I know Nairobi is hardly a village in the middle of nowhere, of course. But cities don't exist completely independently of the culture of the country around them. And Kenya isn't what you'd call an urbanised nation. (And I'm not sure where an MP for Nyakach, in the Kisumu district, will spend most of his time.)

Maybe it's something to do with the fact that in the West, arguments like 'Look at all the wonderful health-care and technology we have that can only come through science, and not religion' make some kind of sense. You can't get halfway through that sentence in much of Africa.

And in the technologically sophisticated West, we can come together in thousands of different ways. We're a community in which physical gaps between people increasingly make bugger all difference. In East Africa, where it's a five-minute walk between neighbouring huts in a single village and where the nearest medical dispensary is twenty miles away along a dirt track, something that gets a community to gather together and share something has a real value. Especially if it helps them to put the many hardships that they feel (increasingly, I fear, as they gain more and more glimpses of what life is like in the West) out of their minds, or subordinate them to a sense of something greater. Even if it's a fiction.

As for the racism, and sexism, and homophobia - well, those may be battles to be fought within the framework of the religion that's currently there. And they won't be won overnight. (Look at the problems Anglicanism has with its African representatives over homosexuality.)

I think talking about atheism - though an urgent matter now in the west - may be the wrong sort of conversation in some nations, including many African ones. There are more pressing concerns there.

But then, of course, you can point to the Catholic church and AIDS in Africa, for example. So it's complicated. Like everything.

Probably I should just keep my mouth shut.

For the time being, anyway, we can't really expect the West's conversation with itself about atheism to be well received by too many Kenyan MPs.

(Probably not even any who can string a sentence together.)

Other Comments by _J_

21. Comment #56614 by PaulJ on July 16, 2007 at 2:38 pm

I think it's clear from this article that Peter Odoyo is not a writer by trade or experience. I wonder if perhaps English is not his first language, given his name and where he's based.

Even taking that into account, however, the article betrays a level of muddled thinking usually confined to the worst of tabloid journalism. There may be doubt as to whether he understood - even at a superficial level - the books he's ostensibly reviewing.

Other Comments by PaulJ

22. Comment #56617 by ranjani on July 16, 2007 at 2:57 pm

_J_:

I am not sure that you are not right about Africa having more pressing problems, but some parts seem to be in hell's grip precisely because of religion. Case in point, the Lord's resistance army in Uganda, Sudan---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

Other Comments by ranjani

23. Comment #56629 by Russell Blackford on July 16, 2007 at 4:10 pm

It's good to see this one. It shows the mentality we are up against without the sugarcoating that comes from more circumspect Western religionists.

Here, for example, we have someone who blatantly considers sexual experience between people of the same sex to be some kind of "decadence", though it seems to me harmless and is obviously pleasurable to the people concerned. It shows how someone who is motivated by compassion and by a love of reason and individual freedom (like most of us here, I hope) is simply on a different wavelength from someone who takes religion seriously and literally (like Mr Odoyo). There couldn't be a better illustration of the need to debunk religion's claims to intellectual and moral authority.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

24. Comment #56631 by _J_ on July 16, 2007 at 4:39 pm

Ranjani, 22,

Thanks for the link.

Sure, I may be all wrong. Africa's enormous, too. I can only comment with any authority at all on my own experience of one small village in Tanzania, which I rather doubt goes for the whole continent.

My position is: it's complicated. Complicated enough for me to feel that, while I'm confident enough being a loud-mouthed atheist in England, I'd think more than twice in many parts of Africa. After that, I think I'm going to bed.

Other Comments by _J_

25. Comment #56638 by savroD on July 16, 2007 at 5:31 pm

What a jerk this author is. Science and atheism is destroying everything, causing us to be gay, and think scientific thoughts! Meanwhile; his people are innocent, moral bystanders. What a piece of garbage. Of course, and as we all know, Africa is on the cutting edge of carrying the world through the 21st Century!
Well, I must be the devil himself!

Other Comments by savroD

26. Comment #56642 by denoir on July 16, 2007 at 5:51 pm

Yes, obviously the western societies have it all wrong. Africa should be the role-model for the rest of the world. Right.

On a more serious note, to answer his question - yes, scientific knowledge leads to atheism. It is however peripheral. The great masses couldn't care less if the Earth revolves around the Sun or not. What is really relevant is a stable society that provides social protection for the citizens. The less you need God, the less you'll believe in him.

There are many other variables that influence the percentage of atheists, but there is a strong correlation between social stability and non-belief.

Finally: I know that there is an ambition on this site to be objective and neutral by publishing articles both by believers and non-believers. I do however think that there should be some form of basic quality cut-off level. This article was abysmal from a quality point of view and IMO should not have been posted here.

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27. Comment #56659 by geckoman on July 16, 2007 at 7:58 pm

Having lived in South East Africa for the last five years, I can tell you that Peter Odoyo's article and views are typical. In fact, he would be seen as a softie and liberal in Swaziland where I live.

Africa is probably the last bastion of utterly unquestioning Christian adherence. In Swaziland, the PM, Ministers, indeed everyone cites the Bible as the reference for ...everything. A recently appointed Minister was asked if not having any qualifications or experience bothered him. "No, because the Lord will guide me." A civil servant was accused of embezzling millions. In court he pleaded that he had been possessed by the devil but had since seen the light. 'Praise the Lord' sang the judges and exonerated him. The King tells subjects that the country's number one enemy is...demons (not HIV, corruption etc) and that every Swazi needs to pray harder. We even had full page newspaper ads about the second coming which was expected in May. I am not making this up; I wish I was.

Religion is a massive impediment to African development as well as a tool for the elites to hold onto power. It is unquestioningly accepted and Odoyo is almost certainly genuine in his indignation (and ignorance).

We should all be worried, because while atheism gains some ground in the developed world, religion is becoming more entrenched elsewhere.

Other Comments by geckoman

28. Comment #56660 by Robert Maynard on July 16, 2007 at 8:23 pm

geckoman: We should all be worried, because while atheism gains some ground in the developed world, religion is becoming more entrenched elsewhere.

We shouldn't be worried about places like Kenya just yet - more sad and trying to help. Just as religious resistance to science/progress is potentially poisonous to the growth of various technology markets in developed countries, its presence in developing economies will likely result in the sheerest drop into functional irrelevance and impoverished squalor, in the emerging global community. EDIT: I realise Kenya is already considered developed, at least in comparison to its neighbours, but the always trustworthy wikipedia has assured me that their economic history is anything but spectacular. :P ..wait, I mean :(

The litmus test for real concern is possession of the bomb, naturally. ..by anyone, really. :(

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

29. Comment #56699 by Lord Asriel on July 17, 2007 at 1:27 am

I had to change planes in Nairobi recently. One of the first books I saw during my short stay in Kenya was a prominently displayed copy of "The God Delusion" in a bookshop at the airport. The author of the above article probably only turned his 'Decadence Detectors' on after leaving his country.

Other Comments by Lord Asriel

30. Comment #56706 by pewkatchoo on July 17, 2007 at 1:55 am

When you cannot even get the name of one of the books you are critiquing correct you have nothing more to say!

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

31. Comment #56707 by BT Murtagh on July 17, 2007 at 2:10 am

I wonder if he even knows why God made homosexuality a sin?

(His boyfriend thought it would be hot!)

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

32. Comment #56710 by Blue Lithium on July 17, 2007 at 2:17 am

Man, I thought this was just going to be the typical drivel until I got to the "gay conspiracy" part. Although you may believe your faith is assaulted daily, people disagreeing and not believing is not an assault on your faith. In fact, my sexual orientation is far more assaulted--by people like you.

Gah...this article was AWFUL.

Other Comments by Blue Lithium

33. Comment #56712 by alovrin on July 17, 2007 at 2:38 am

Reading this makes me realise why religious organisations are charging into Africa. Fresh meat as the saying goes.

Other Comments by alovrin

34. Comment #56714 by rokort on July 17, 2007 at 3:03 am

Religious dogmas adhere easily to illiterate people who don't know what the future will bring. Something that applies to (too) much of Africa. Next to unquestionable belief in a Christian deity or in the words of the Kuran (some years ago i was in a small village in Malawi, amongst the Yao people. Their Imam spread the doctrines of Allah in Arabic while -of course- nobody understood him for the simple reason they speak another language. Nevertheless all were devout followers...) there is still widespread "witchcraft". All this because they aren't learned properly how to put trust in themselves instead of some fairy, and use ratio to get through life.

As Peter Odoyo shows us, and geckoman confirmes, bigoted religious belief is hardwired in Africa. But just like the Pentecostal movement in parts of South America (where they take over the role of the Catholic Church simply by winning souls through showing concern for the poor in the slums) perhaps showing compassion on an atheist basis might help. I say this because i got (and get) the impression lots of Africans are very sensitive to religion only because this way they are presented a "better" future and excuses for their hardship. Religious organisations are the ones building hopitals and schools for the needy. Unfortunately, decades of such indoctrination leaves a lot of souls thinking therefore religion is a good thing.

Other Comments by rokort

35. Comment #56716 by robzrob on July 17, 2007 at 3:24 am

It would be nice to think that this is a joke - I wasn't sure as I read, but I suppose it isn't. :(

Other Comments by robzrob

36. Comment #56718 by Logicel on July 17, 2007 at 3:28 am

rokort wrote: ...perhaps showing compassion on an atheist basis might help. I say this because i got (and get) the impression lots of Africans are very sensitive to religion only because this way they are presented a "better" future and excuses for their hardship. Religious organisations are the ones building hopitals and schools for the needy.
______

This secular couple with their project,
http://www.freewebs.com/livingstonetheatreproject/thetheatreproject.htm

are focusing on local art and cultural traditions in Zambia to create an economic focus; in addition, they are working on improving the local school, all without, religion.

Other Comments by Logicel

37. Comment #56740 by TinyRobot on July 17, 2007 at 4:46 am

Obviously this article is riddled with non-sequiturs and poorly thought-out prose (i don't want to be too critical though since English is probably not his first language). It sounds like someone just ranting...

Anyway i'd love to know where he saw these women (and men) killing one another due to their insatiable lust for members of their own sex. What kind of nightclubs and pubs did he go to? My personal experience is that fights among males (heterosexual) are a dime a dozen on a saturday night. Why didn't he intervene or call some authorities or something? Did he just watch them die? I'm guessing the word 'killing' was just hyperbole, but if its true then it was hardly a Christian thing to just let it happen. Although, i guess homosexuals are unworthy of his respect.

There is also a strange paranoia apparent... like the West creating super-solidiers and Albert Einsteins to create super-atomic bombs to destroy Africa (or something along those lines - maybe the Gay Bomb would be more frightening for him?)

Other Comments by TinyRobot

38. Comment #56764 by Misha Vargas on July 17, 2007 at 6:32 am

Small, unimportant factual error:

Bonn and New York are mention'd early in the piece as Western capitals.

Other Comments by Misha Vargas

39. Comment #56765 by geckoman on July 17, 2007 at 6:39 am

Just for background, allafrica.com, from which the article is pulled, is one of these umbrella websites that collates news items from multiple sources. These especially include African newspapers.

This article was written for the Nation newspaper in Kenya. The standard of journalism and quality of African papers falls far short of what many readers on this forum are used to. The national daily where I live is clearly not even proof-read, so frequent are the basic errors.

Writers like Odoyo are writing for a domestic readership who share his homophobic and unquestioning religious adherence. Concerns like accuracy, provable statements, balanced reporting etc are not major concerns for the editor. Note also Odoyo is probably an MP. In Africa (and I accept I generalise) adherence to hierarchy and status mean that MPS and the like are never criticised for their views.

Other Comments by geckoman

40. Comment #56776 by GoatBoy36 on July 17, 2007 at 7:20 am

"And where are the intellectual titans of the Christian religion?"

Where indeed, lol .. I'm pretty sure he didn't mean to be funny there, but I couldn't help laughing.

One thing he's got right is the use nowadays of kirks for all kinds of useful things, for example if you walk about Aberdeen there's a kirk at the end of Belmont Street now being used as a restaurant, halfway down towards Union St there's another one that's now a nightclub, walk up Union St and there's another restaurant (just up from Waterstones), round the corner from Jimmy Cheung's there's another nightclub, Charlies if I remember right, and they're all former kirks. Man, I could walk about the centre of Aberdeen with my moby and take some rare photos, it might be worth sticking them on photobucket or something & linking to different pics of buildings that are "no longer churches".

gb.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

41. Comment #56786 by geckoman on July 17, 2007 at 8:00 am

GoatBoy

Have these venues all got really imaginative names like "Cloisters", "Confessions", "The Spire" etc?

Other Comments by geckoman

42. Comment #56806 by PeterK on July 17, 2007 at 10:28 am

"The DEATH [capital letters mine]of Religion And Rise of Atheism in the West"

.."The authors cannot satisfy me on the bankruptcy of religion since so many people believe in God....."

uhhh, so which one is it, Peter?

Other Comments by PeterK

43. Comment #56807 by GoatBoy36 on July 17, 2007 at 10:49 am

geckoman,

Apparently the spam filters on this website won't let me put links to flickr into a post, but if you do a search there for "Aberdeen Slain's Castle" you should get some cool photos, it's one of those former churches in Aberdeen that is now a big old pub with a vampire theme to it. The guy who's taken all the photos is called "Hound Owner". I'll try to put a link in here again, & see if it works ..

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=Aberdeen+Slain%27s+Castle&m=text

gb.

edit: well that didn't quite work, but if you either copy & paste that whole thing into your browser, or just go to flickr and do the search yourself, you should get to the boy's fotys like .. they're pretty good.

Other Comments by GoatBoy36

44. Comment #56853 by LeeLeeOne on July 17, 2007 at 1:43 pm

Why oh why does the author of this article sound educated and then turns the art of journalism into blathering idiocy?

Other Comments by LeeLeeOne

45. Comment #56864 by geckoman on July 17, 2007 at 3:09 pm

GoatBoy

Just looked at the foaties and they are impressive. The venue looks a lot less cheesy than expected. That said, is that real graves in the grounds of the pub? Is there not a problem with folk heefing and pissing on them?

Other Comments by geckoman

46. Comment #56999 by irate_atheist on July 18, 2007 at 5:06 am

To be blunt, Mr Odoyo is most useful as a witness for the prosecution not the defence of religion.

Childhood indoctrination - "Having been brought up on strict Christian teachings..."

Anti-science - "I found other attacks on God through the direction scientific research is taking"

Anti-intellectualism - "The rise of atheism is being spearheaded by the most learned people"

Homophobia - "...a conspiracy between scientists and the gay community"

What a star! Who else agrees with me when I say that RD should quote him in the foreword to his next book.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

47. Comment #57432 by Rieux on July 19, 2007 at 10:13 am

Bonn and New York are mention'd early in the piece as Western capitals.

Well, they're both former Western capitals. The writer's information is just seven and [cringe] two hundred seventeen years out of date.

Other Comments by Rieux