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Tuesday, July 24, 2007 | Reason : Religion as Child Abuse | print version Print | Comments

Document Red Mosque Fueled Islamic Fire in Young Women

by Somini Sengupta

Reposted from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/24/world/asia/24madrasa.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, July 23 — Hameeda Sarfraz, 19, lively eyes sparkling out of a black burqa, was describing the boons of the afterlife.

"In heaven you get everything without hardship," explained Miss Sarfraz, daughter of a bus driver. "In heaven, if a martyr feels hungry, food appears, the best quality food, and you won't even know where it came from."

Miss Sarfraz, an alumna of the now bullet-ridden Jamia Hafsa Islamic school for girls, says she deeply regrets missing her chance to be a martyr. She fled through the back door of the school on July 3, just hours after a gun battle began between Pakistani special forces and militants holed up in the neighboring Red Mosque, the parent institution of Jamia Hafsa.

Sentiments like hers are the fruits of a radical Islam that has blossomed in this country — not just in the lawless tribal areas that American intelligence officials described as an enduring sanctuary for Al Qaeda, but here in its capital, in a mosque-and-school compound that until recently enjoyed the blessings of the state.

She presents a portrait of adolescent passion that one might find anywhere, except that she is a Pakistani girl from a poor rural family, whose members are less devout than she, and her passion is directed against the government of the president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Some of Jamia Hafsa's alumnae say they still wish to die in the cause of militant Islam.

During the siege, the Pakistani military maintained that women and children had been held hostage by hard-core fighters inside the compound, but Miss Sarfraz and several others interviewed said they were free to stay or go, and some held out until near the end. The bodies of six women were recovered at battle's end.

"I was studying there six years," said Shahnaz Akhtar, 20, another former student who held out until the next-to-last day of the siege. "I was so attached to it. I couldn't leave just because a dictator started bombing it. I feel more at home there than I do at home."

Shortly before the siege began, female students had come out of the school, draped in black burqas, waving bamboo sticks and taunting troops stationed nearby. The Pakistani news media dubbed them "chicks with sticks."

Miss Sarfraz came home two weeks ago, out of that caldron of radical Islamist fervor, Islamabad, back to the prosaic chores of a young woman in the Pakistani countryside. Home is a village perched on green terraced hills, a little more than 50 miles from the capital.

"I miss Jamia," she continued. "My contact with books is gone. At home the only thing for me to do is take care of my parents. I clean the house. I cook."

She and others came back with a mission to reform their families and their communities, cajoling their mothers and sisters to hide themselves in black burqas. They say they have lost interest in the pleasures of this life, though some, like Miss Akhtar, have yet to give up on pleasures like painting their toenails in dark red. They express an obsession with the afterlife.

They say they would like to see a thousand Jamia Hafsa schools bloom across the nation. Miss Sarfraz has already begun classes at home for the children in her village.

There are, indeed, already some 12,000 religious schools, called madrasas, with about one million students across Pakistan. Some, though not all, embrace militancy.

The families of these returning girls appear to be less hard-line about their faith than their daughters. They say they sent their sisters and daughters to Jamia Hafsa because it was free and safe, and enjoyed a good reputation for providing religious education.

Miss Akhtar's family, for instance, sent her there six years ago, after she completed eighth grade and expressed a desire to further her education. Her village still has no high school for girls; the nearest one is a one-and-a-half mile walk away.

Miss Akhtar studied the Koran; the Hadith, or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad; and Islamic law. She learned of the virtues of martyrdom. "I prayed to God I would play a role in jihad," she said.

She learned to justify suicide bombings as a weapon that could be employed in the event of a battle between what she called "true believers" and "infidels."

Would Islam allow suicide bombing inside Pakistan, an Islamic nation? She said it was possible, and then hesitated when pressed. She said she was not a qualified Islamic scholar.

The battle for the Red Mosque compound began in earnest in January when a group of Jamia Hafsa students, spurred by reports that the government planned to demolish some illegally constructed mosques and seminaries in Islamabad, including Jamia Hafsa, occupied an adjacent public library.

Early that morning, Miss Akhtar recounted, the girls, armed with cane batons, pushed open the library's back door and awakened the caretakers who were sleeping on the floor with cries of "God is great." They threw the keys to the library onto the floor, and fled. Ms. Akhtar giggled as she described the events, and then said she had not been part of it.

In the coming months, the students, along with their counterparts from the boy's school, Jamia Farida, abducted three Pakistani women accused of running a brothel. Then they kidnapped six Chinese masseuses working in what they also said was a brothel; they released them the next day, but it paved the way for the final confrontation.

Three times in the past few months, as confrontation loomed between the Red Mosque and General Musharraf's government, Miss Akhtar's parents appealed to her to come home. She refused, saying she wanted to be a martyr. She flashed a big smile at the memory.

In the weeks before the final siege began, she said, the students were warned that the military could strike. "Are you girls prepared for that?" she recalled being asked by teachers. "Do you have the stamina to defend your religion? Are you ready?"

By the time the fighting was over, the official death toll stood at 102, including 11 soldiers. The military said the leaders of the rebellion, including a pro-Taliban cleric named Abdur Rashid Ghazi, had been killed. About 160 people, including three women, have been arrested. Nearly 1,000 others have been released to their families, including 465 women.

To varying degrees, they have all brought a piece of Jamia Hafsa with them. And their transformation is not lost on their families.

Up the road from Miss Akhtar's home, in a village called Kotla, sat four girls, ages 15 to 18, all cousins who said they had been forced by their families to leave the school after the military raid began.

They sat in one girl's home telling their story, their faces uncovered only because no man was present. But when Mohammed Matloob, the father of one of the girls, walked into the room, the other three quickly pulled their head scarves over their faces. His daughter, Nagina, 16, ordered him to leave the room, which he did, with a surprised shrug.

The girls explained that at Jamia Hafsa they had been taught to observe purdah, the practice of shielding faces and figures from any man who is not a member of the immediate family. They had changed since they left home for Jamia.

"We used to listen to music and watch TV before," said Sayeda Fazlur Rehman, 17, with a look of disgust. "We didn't even pray."

Practicing purdah, they said, would hasten their ascent to heaven. "This life is temporary," Miss Fazlur Rehman declared, a common refrain of the Jamia Hafsa alumnae. "You don't know when you'll die."

Salman Masood contributed reporting.

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1. Comment #58247 by Philip1978 on July 24, 2007 at 6:16 am

 avatarI always feel numb when reading this sort of thing, I read all these statements like

"In heaven you get everything without hardship," explained Miss Sarfraz, daughter of a bus driver. "In heaven, if a martyr feels hungry, food appears, the best quality food, and you won't even know where it came from"

and it makes me feel ill

Religion and its promise of afterlife really annoys me, what is so wrong with this life? Don't these people ever connect the hardships they are going through are the direct result of their religion and if they gave it up and used common sense their lives would improve? Do they not connect their 14th century existence is a result of adhering to a 8th century book? No they don't and that is what makes me so numb and powerless to do anything about it, I hope things change, I really do

Other Comments by Philip1978

2. Comment #58248 by mad_monk on July 24, 2007 at 6:17 am

 avatarAnother depressing story about religious brain-washing destroying the lives of young people. How tragic to live in such pitiful ignorance of reality. What is most revealing for me is that the younger generation in Pakistan (and elsewhere) appear to be forming a more extreme religious world-view than their parents. Although we should be careful about drawing conclusions from the story of one individual, the future does appear bleak. Does anyone know what a typical Madrasa curriculum might include? Is it just studying the Koran and associated texts from dawn to dusk?

Other Comments by mad_monk

3. Comment #58250 by jonecc on July 24, 2007 at 6:31 am

There is an interesting clue to the motivation of these young women in the middle of this piece. One of them says, "My contact with books is gone. At home the only thing for me to do is take care of my parents. I clean the house. I cook."

Often, the Islamists are the only people offering any education to girls at all. Because their funding is Saudi, they teach the most unpleasant version of the religion in the modern world.

We won't defeat these ideas until a secular education is available for everyone in the Islamic world, especially girls.

Other Comments by jonecc

4. Comment #58254 by Philip1978 on July 24, 2007 at 6:49 am

 avatarMadMonk,

I think the Madrasa can be split into two things

1) a "hifz" which is memorisation of the Qu'ran and

2) "alim" which is more a sort of university course on Arabic, shari'ah law, Hadith Studies etc A bit like a history degree with law!

Both in my opinion dangerous because it allows for more religious indoctrination disguised as a form of education and learning. This is one of the reasons they are so fanatical about Islam, its all they are ever taught and it does not prepare them for the modern world, its so sad.

One day they might learn, oh well,
cheers,
Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

5. Comment #58261 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 7:07 am

 avatarStuff like this is one of the reasons that I'd like to see the current Pakistan regime stay in power, even if it is a military dictatorship. For all his faults, Musharraf's government is basically secular. There was an article in Newsweek about Al Qaeda's resurgence in parts of Pakistan. If Musharraf falls, then THEY would probably take over. The Americans would have to go in and stop it, and for once I wouldn't blame them. The prospect of AQ with nukes is too horrific.

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6. Comment #58264 by mad_monk on July 24, 2007 at 7:21 am

 avatarPhilip1978: Thanks for the comment. There is a wider issue connected with this story; a coordinated international effort to promote a more balanced curriculum in Islamic countries is under-mined by our own failures in this field. I refer particularly to Faith Schools, supported by the UK government. Until we accept the damage we are doing to our own children through indoctrination, we are not in a position to lecture Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc. on their education policy. Prof. Dawkins' charge of "child abuse" relating to this issue is an often mis-understood, but perfectly fair criticism in my view. For those who have not already done so, please consider signing the petition:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/faithschools/

Other Comments by mad_monk

7. Comment #58266 by DC_Runner on July 24, 2007 at 7:23 am

So many millions of lives are being wasted on this lunacy. It's no wonder the predominantly Muslim countries are such basket cases.

Instead of living happy, productive lives, and contributing something positive to society, countless numbers of people spend their lives doing little more than reading poisonous, fictional books and talking to themselves (i.e., praying). These lives are utterly squandered.

Such a waste of human potential. Such a tragedy.

Other Comments by DC_Runner

8. Comment #58267 by Philip1978 on July 24, 2007 at 7:28 am

 avatarQuetzalcoatl

I agree with you, the place is better off with Musheraff, its such a terrible position for him to be in. The pressure of the extremists upon the government is huge, the problem is Musheraff has acquiesced to them before, e.g when he wanted to revise Rape law. That reduced his power base considerably, I think he is slowly making it back up but its so difficult. The fact those guys and their surrounding fanatical countries have now got nuclear knowledge does not help matters at all, as you said, its horrific. If the real nutters get in I do not want to think about the consequences and I think that's what the international community is working on, maintaining relations so they don't have to go that far. I hope...eek!

Dammit, why cant they just worship you and the prophet billy, tis so much safer!

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9. Comment #58269 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 7:39 am

 avatarYeah. If it ever got to the point where AQ looked like taking over, then probably India, Israel and the US would step in, because they'd be the first targets for a nuked-up Al Qaeda. In theory, I'm opposed to military dictatorships, but the only opposition to Musharraf are Islamist parties, so they're even worse.

Indeed, they should worship me. The only people I don't like are the Spanish, only because they massacred all my previous worshippers. But even they would not be mistreated under my rule, just made to do the cleaning, stuff like that.

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10. Comment #58274 by Philip1978 on July 24, 2007 at 8:10 am

 avatarJust had a thought, could anyone actually and democratically get to power in a place like that?

Military dictatorship is vile, I oppose it as much as you do, but how on earth could anyone step in there saying "Right, lets actually vote for this one, women included..."! (Riot breaks out...speaker says "sorry, did I say something wrong? Which part exactly"?!) How do you control fundamentalists in a volatile country like that? If AQ get in you are then facing the same problem as Iraq, getting rid of AQ would mean replacing them with something that would work out there, the mind doth boggle as to where to start!

Please someone give them some beer drinking etiquette , education as to how to be nice to women and get rid of that bloody stupid book!

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11. Comment #58279 by jonecc on July 24, 2007 at 8:18 am

Quetzalcoatl:

Just to clear up the argument, what is your position on human sacrifice? I don't have a sword, but should I be sharpening my kitchen knives? I don't have any prisoners of war either, so will my students do instead?

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12. Comment #58280 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 8:27 am

 avatarJonecc- the Aztecs made do without swords, so you'll be fine. But gods must move with the times. Nowadays, I am a more benificent deity. The only human sacrifice I am interested in is the occasional sacrifice of time in giving thanks to me, and also by sending money/hot women to my mortal avatar.

So your students are safe, unless any of them are of Spanish descent. Feel free to threaten them with my wrath, if you wish.

My Prophet Billy Sands is even now hard at work breeding my army. I won't go into detail, but if you are interested in learning more, see "The God of the Bible is no Delusion" thread. My Blessings be upon you.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

13. Comment #58281 by jonecc on July 24, 2007 at 8:38 am

Wow, that's a proper religion. So which do you hate more, Spaniards or pigeons?

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14. Comment #58283 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 8:45 am

 avatarIt's got to be pigeons, hence the plans for the laser-equipped falcons. I'm also looking into winged serpents, one of my traditional forms, as in my avatar. With Spaniards, it's more of a lingering dislike than genuine hatred. Have I convinced you of the virtues of my religion?

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15. Comment #58285 by irate_atheist on July 24, 2007 at 8:45 am

 avatarWhen I read articles like this, and court cases about wearing 'purity rings' happen in my country, I shake my head when I realise that we're all going to be fucked over by lunatics like these.

Climate change? Forget it. These nutjobs are going to kill us all before the seas even get a chance to rise.

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16. Comment #58288 by logical on July 24, 2007 at 8:53 am

 avatarDear Philip1978, if there is nothing wrong with YOUR life, congratulations!
But then you should be able to read this article a little bit more closely, Ms. Sengupta describes very accurate
- which kind of life these girls have in their "homes", (how would YOU like to be restricted to "the only thing... to do is take care of my parents. I clean the house. I cook", and YOUR "contact with books...gone"?) and
- how they are taught in such religious establishments to lash out onto other women.
How about demanding secular schools for women everywhere?
You seem quite young, I am old enough to remember parts of the fight for girls to attend school more than 4 years in Catholic countries.

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17. Comment #58289 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 8:55 am

 avatarThe purity rings don't really worry me. But, I do think it's likely that in the next few years there'll be military intervention in Pakistan, the way things are going.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

18. Comment #58290 by jonecc on July 24, 2007 at 8:56 am

Gay crabs, serpents, lasers, beneficence, what's not to worship? When do I get my special thong?

Other Comments by jonecc

19. Comment #58291 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 9:00 am

 avatarWelcome to the fold. That's three worshippers on the RD site. You should now be feeling good about yourself and slightly amused. That is a sign of my benificence shining upon you.

There are no special thongs, though. What do you think this is, the Catholic Church?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

20. Comment #58292 by heathen2 on July 24, 2007 at 9:04 am

 avatarRegarding Comment #58247 by Philip1978:

"Religion and its promise of afterlife really annoys me, what is so wrong with this life? Don't these people ever connect the hardships they are going through are the direct result of their religion and if they gave it up and used common sense their lives would improve? Do they not connect their 14th century existence is a result of adhering to a 8th century book?"

I understand and feel the same, it is difficult for us to connect with this. But I think it is a combination of the culture (heirarchical, low position of women, dependent on family), religious dogma and lack of education, and poverty.

They just want to escape the drudgery and no avenue but martyrdom is open. One would think they could look around and see the opportunities, but I don't think they even have the internal resources to do that.

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21. Comment #58296 by jonecc on July 24, 2007 at 9:21 am

No thongs? How about a nice cassock?

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22. Comment #58298 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 9:24 am

 avatarIf you bring in some more worshippers, I will Manifest for you an "I worship the Great God Quetzalcoatl" t-shirt.

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23. Comment #58299 by jonecc on July 24, 2007 at 9:36 am

I'll do my best.

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24. Comment #58303 by Philip1978 on July 24, 2007 at 10:40 am

 avatarLogical, I think you might have the wrong impression about me, I don't want to come across in the way you described, thats not who I am

I am nearly 29 years old and I suppose my posts do come across as slightly naive, I don't think I have explained myself enough from what I understand of the situation in Pakistan or anywhere else in the world where religion has abused women.

I remember chatting to Manfred, an Iranian lady who had escaped persecution and moved to America for safety and I discussed the subject of women and Islam with her and learned a great deal. She described the experience of being a woman in Islam as something very close to Stockholm Syndrome in a prison camp.

If you look at my first post on here I mentioned how numb and ill I feel when I hear about this sort of thing. I totally agree it seems I have had it FAR too easy in my life in comparison to what these people have to endure. I don't want to come across as ungrateful or magnanimous because of where I am and where they are.

The only problem is I can only imagine what those poor women have to go through, I have never ever experienced it so I go on what I can only read and hear about. The fact that I am completely helpless to do anything about it is frustrating and it breaks my heart to see such pointless suffering. I feel great sorrow about how religion ruins and destroys people's lives, men and women have suffered far too much as a result of backward thinking and stupidity.

Please don't think that my joking around with Quetz or my sometimes over the top posts indicate that I think I am special or not caring about the plight of these women and all others for whom religion has segregated and abused for centuries. I am an optimistic man, I do have hope this will change and if I find a way I can contribute to it I will. But please don't think that I would dare assume to be in any way disingenuous to the plight of these women. I hope that clears things up,
kind regards,
Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

25. Comment #58308 by roach on July 24, 2007 at 11:16 am

I wonder, would I be an adherent of Islam and support suicide bombing if I had been born in the Middle East to Muslim parents? I'd like to think not. But that's probably untrue.

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26. Comment #58309 by Rtambree on July 24, 2007 at 11:22 am

25. Comment #58308 by roach on

>I wonder, would I be an adherent of Islam and support suicide bombing if I had been born in the Middle East to Muslim parents? I'd like to think not. But that's probably untrue.

That's a philosophical question. Then you wouldn't be you. It's similar to "If I was growing up in 1930s Germany, would I have accepted a prestigious well-paid promotion to oversee a concentration camp?"

It also leads to another question - what are we unquestioningly accepting today that'll be looked upon differently in the future (attitudes to environment, poverty, suffering, politicians we vote for, corporations we work for, etc).

But back to your original question - I wonder what percentage of atheists exist in the Muslim world. Obviously they can't admit it if they live in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc, but surely there must be some closet ones. The higher the percentage the more likely that you'd be one of them if you grew up in the Muslim world.

Judging by the USA, it might be low. If an affluent western modern country like the USA can see atheism rates of somewhere between 3 - 10% (depending on the poll), then surely a poor, insular, totalitarian, theocratic society would be far less than 3%.

Other Comments by Rtambree

27. Comment #58311 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 11:25 am

 avatarAmong the more educated, probably more than anyone might think. Not that we'll ever know. As bad as it is in the West sometimes to be an atheist, that's nothing compared to being sentenced to death for being an apostate.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

28. Comment #58320 by NJS on July 24, 2007 at 12:42 pm

On the Panorama about integration a couple of months ago, a veiled moslem girl explained how this life was just a test to see if you were fit for paradise. As well as sharing the above poster's sadness at this it echoed an argument I've had which falls into the "how can you be so stupid and not realise its made up" category.

The idea of a 70 yr "test" with an infinite reward breaks down for me straight away - why 70? why not 5 or 500? Why such a stupidly short period out of all proportion to the time in heaven?

And of course my clincher which is to ask why if a baby which is baptised is then perfectly innocent why don't you kill them then to ensure they go to heaven with no hassle?

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29. Comment #58322 by Tobbe on July 24, 2007 at 12:53 pm

These people are just like my Viking ancestors. They too believed that if you died in batte you would go strait to heaven where you would sit at Odins table and eat pork and drink beer for eternity.

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30. Comment #58395 by steveroot on July 24, 2007 at 5:21 pm

 avatar
19. Comment #58291 by Quetzalcoatl on July 24, 2007 at 9:00 am
Welcome to the fold. That's three worshippers on the RD site. You should now be feeling good about yourself and slightly amused. That is a sign of my beneficence shining upon you.

There are no special thongs, though. What do you think this is, the Catholic Church?


Make that FOUR! any deity with a good sense of humor is one I'll gladly grovel before... well, at least wear a proselytistic t-shirt!

Here are some of the good things folks will do for you (from Dictionary.com):

Typical acts of worship include:

* prayer;
* sacrifice (korban in Hebrew);
* rituals;
* some forms of meditation;
* holidays, festivals;
* pilgrimages;
* hymns, psalms or worship music;
* dance
* the construction of temples or shrines;
* the creation of idols of the deity.
* living out Worship in Daily Life
Your slave,
Steveroot

Other Comments by steveroot

31. Comment #58403 by Dr Benway on July 24, 2007 at 5:40 pm

 avatar
They too believed that if you died in battle you would go strait to heaven where you would sit at Odin's table and eat pork and drink beer for eternity.
Tomorrow be Wodanstag! Let all remember how the Allfather hung for nine days, pierced by his own spear, on the world tree.

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32. Comment #58414 by Nails on July 24, 2007 at 6:16 pm

 avatarRemind me never to go to a WRVS shop in islamabad.....
Maybe a bit harsh but I shall explain.
In this country (UK) we caracature women of the church as being mddle-aged charity shop workers, into knitting and drinking tea.
Harmless.
And mosques are kicking out people who would gladly die, not just for their faith but for the afterlife?
I don't get it, I really don't.
If it was that good, why are their any muslims over the age of twenty?
Surely they would all martyr themselves as soon as they were deemed old enough!! And that woul dleave no-one around to tell the rest how good it is going to be without ever having the slightest idea how ridiculous it sounds.

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33. Comment #58428 by geckoman on July 24, 2007 at 7:13 pm

The testimony of Miss Sarfraz is as Philip said desperate and heart breaking.

Its roots: lack of opprtunity, institutionalised sexism, poverty, impressionability, indoctrination, lack of balanced education, msplaced idealism and the predatory nature of vitriolic religious men.

That's a lot of negatives to overcome before it changes. And there is no quick fix. I can only recall an earlier article by a physics lecturer from an Islamabad University. He had the courage to oppose extremism and talk to his students about the dangers of blind submission to islam. People like him are one hope of a muslim solution to muslim problem. But it's a slender hope. The AK 47 wielding imam is for the moment, far mightier than the liberal academic.

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34. Comment #58437 by Goldy on July 24, 2007 at 8:10 pm

Its roots: lack of opprtunity, institutionalised sexism, poverty, impressionability, indoctrination, lack of balanced education, msplaced idealism and the predatory nature of vitriolic religious men

So how does that explain rich Arab men and doctors willing to die for their cause?
As it is, seemed to me the majority of Pakistanis (at least, those that got through into the BBC's HYS) were against this sort of extremism.

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35. Comment #58440 by geckoman on July 24, 2007 at 8:25 pm

Goldy

Rich arabs and doctors are still susceptible to the last 5 factors I mentioned.

If your point is that even some of the educated and wealthy are attracted by muslim fanatacism, then you are correct. Doesn't lend optimism for a muslim solution to a muslim problem, does it?

Other Comments by geckoman

36. Comment #58441 by Goldy on July 24, 2007 at 8:32 pm

Nope - we're doomed, I tell you, dooooooooomed!
I work with quite a few rather religious PhD and Honours students in a medical sciences department at uni (hence getting this joke in my email:

In Pharmacology, all drugs have two names, a trade name and generic name. For example, the trade name of Tylenol also has a generic name of Acetaminophen. Aleve is also called Naproxen. Amoxil is also call Amoxicillin and Advil is also called Ibuprofen.

The FDA has been looking for a generic name for Viagra. After careful consideration by a team of government experts, it recently announced that it has settled on the generic name of Mycoxafloppin. Also considered were Mycoxafailin, Mydixadrupin, Mydixarizin, Dixafix, and of course, Ibepokin. .

Pfizer Corp. announced today that Viagra will soon be available in liquid form, and will be marketed by Pepsi Cola as a power beverage suitable for use as a mixer. It will now be possible for a man to literally pour himself a stiff one. Obviously we can no longer call this a soft drink, and it gives new meaning to the names of "cocktails", "highballs" and just a good old-fashioned "stiff drink". Pepsi will market the new concoction by the name of: MOUNT & DO.).
I read of a Bishop, with, I am told, a place in the House of Lords, telling us the floods in England were God's doing. The main bogeyman (now the Russians have gone and the Chinese haven't started yet) is really, really rich. Instead of helping by philanthropic means, he uses his wealth to perpetuate his death cult.
Oh boy, are we dooooooomed!!!!!!!!!

Other Comments by Goldy

37. Comment #58444 by Goldy on July 24, 2007 at 9:06 pm

From Arabnews.com, a letter

Disaster vs. Triumph

Articles like "America Waking Up to Scale of Iraq Disaster" (July 20) make me wonder why it is that whenever the West fails to achieve its political or military objectives in the world at large, military and political pundits predict "doom and gloom" for the victims of Western hegemony. So often "Vietnam" is forecast for Iraq. Has Vietnam survived? Is it not now a trading partner of the same US imperialists? Did it go down in flames?

The saddest failure of the West in Iraq is the failure to admit that it has no faith in anything, apart from its own ego — not even in God. This is the real disaster for the West: the loss of its humaneness and its lack of recognition that God will not let His faithful carry a burden greater than they can bear.

The reality of Iraq is not seen in the failure of the West to extend its hegemony into the region, but in the ability of the Iraqi spirit to emerge unconquered as a free and victorious people without Western "guidance". The real triumph for the world will be the recognition by the West that it is not the world, but only one part of it.


Jerry Copeland, United States published 25 July 2007

I've highlighted the important bit. Suggests that if even in America there isn't enough godliness, then what chance do many of us have against this tide of seemingly rising religiosity. Maybe one day what this Pakistani woman said will be heard on the lips of an American or European child. The only cure, it seems, for all the ills is not to stand back and think rationally but to add more god to the fire.
Of curse, if we Westerners didn't apparently meddle so much in the Middle East, none of this anger would seemingly have been directed at us.

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38. Comment #58448 by heathen2 on July 24, 2007 at 10:23 pm

 avatargoldy,

Way off topic, but funny, funny joke. Thanks

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39. Comment #58464 by Quetzalcoatl on July 25, 2007 at 12:42 am

 avatar
Make that FOUR! any deity with a good sense of humor is one I'll gladly grovel before... well, at least wear a proselytistic t-shirt!


Excellent. My believers are growing in number. This is what you get when you are a God who knows how to use the Internet.

Steveroot- your mention of the construction of idols intrigues me. Perhaps you could look into that. Plus, obviously, continue to venerate me in your daily life. The rewards will be great. My Blessings be upon you.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

40. Comment #58471 by Goldy on July 25, 2007 at 2:01 am

Well, if others aren't going to be too serious...
Quetzalcoatl, make it 5. Are Brazilians OK? Only I'm making feijoada this weekend for a friend and I'm not wanting to poison it, but if you give the word... ;-)

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41. Comment #58478 by Quetzalcoatl on July 25, 2007 at 2:19 am

 avatarWelcome, Goldy. I'm making a list of all my worshippers' names, and you will all be rewarded.

Brazilians are fine, especially the women ;)
There is no need to poison your friend. But I commend you on your enthusiasm, I may have need of you in case I decide to punish any unbelievers.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

42. Comment #58556 by posiedon on July 25, 2007 at 7:23 am

 avatarSounds like a good religion to me Quetzalcoatl, sign me up.
Do I need to dress a certain way? How many times a day must I pay homage?

Other Comments by posiedon

43. Comment #58559 by Quetzalcoatl on July 25, 2007 at 7:32 am

 avatarWelcome, Acolyte Posiedon! I have now tripled my worshippers this week (to 6, but even so).

You will find worshipping me to be relaxed and enjoyable. No dress code. Merely pay homage to me throughout the day, especially when good things happen. You might have to construct an idol or two later on, or send any beautiful young women you know in the direction of my mortal avatar. My Blessings be upon you.

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44. Comment #58620 by heathen2 on July 25, 2007 at 12:00 pm

 avatarQuetzalcoatl, if I worship the sun already like George Carlin does, can I worship you too? In other words, are you open to being part of a pantheon of gods?

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45. Comment #58630 by Jiten on July 25, 2007 at 1:09 pm

 avatarTo the 6 new worshippers of Quetzalcoatl : do as you please but just don't label your children as his followers too.

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46. Comment #58632 by Quetzalcoatl on July 25, 2007 at 1:53 pm

 avatarHeathen2- I am open to being worshipped as part of a pantheon, but I'd have to ask that I be the main subject of your worship. After all, does the Sun communicate with you directly? Well, yes, but only through light. I am the only God to have cracked the Internet.

Jiten- wise words. All worshippers- do not indoctrinate your children. Allow them to develop without influencing them in my direction. I will gather them to me in time.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

47. Comment #58633 by swamijie on July 25, 2007 at 2:01 pm

Coming from a strongly Islamic background, I can tell you, first hand, that many of the assertions made here are correct in that what is happening is total indoctrination, which eventually morphs into brainwashing, or even Stockholm syndrome in some cases. The problem in Islam is that education is often viewed to be synonymous, as are just about all aspects of polity and personal life, with religion. I once knew someone who was indoctrinated by this crap who told me that "Islam is not a religion, it is a way of life" and that just about sums up the sentiment taught at these institutions. I've heard this or similar attitudes repeated often, and, the more extreme aspects of this "way of life" teaches that this life is only but a "train ride" into the next and the determination of whether a person's stop is "paradise" or "hell" is how they conduct themselves on the train ride. For many of these individuals, the train ride sucks and they're not, by religious edict, allowed to jump off the train (suicide), so, they end up acting crazy so they can get thrown off the train (suicide bombing, violence in the name of the religion and violent death which equals martyrdom). One phenomenon that we're witnessing is that more and more individuals, are being convinced that this life is not worth living which appears to be a result of the fact that modernity is incompatible with certain visions of Islamic life.

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48. Comment #58634 by Goldy on July 25, 2007 at 2:03 pm

Not to worry about indoctrination - name is too hard to pronounce after a few libatory beers... ;-)

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49. Comment #58770 by irate_atheist on July 26, 2007 at 4:13 am

 avatarQuetz: I am willing to become one of your followers. Only upon the condition that you allow me to define my Quetzalcoatl as a metaphor for being, not to be worshiped so much as to be aspired to.

I would like to call my sect, 'The New Interpretationalists'.

Is this acceptable to you?

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50. Comment #58772 by Quetzalcoatl on July 26, 2007 at 4:22 am

 avatarSigh. Already the schisms have started.

Irate- I will allow this. But you must remember to honour me, especially when good things happen. Also remember to be careful with your "interpretations" of my Word, as I am a god that can come online and correct you.

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