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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document How could God allow 26 pilgrims to die in a crash?

by Christopher Jamison, Times Online

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article2134320.ece?Submitted=true

In the film Bruce Almighty Jim Carrey is allowed by God to run the world for a day. He's a nice guy and says yes to all prayers. Both he and the world quickly spiral into chaos. While the film reminds us that this is God's world and not some human invention, trying to see how we are in fact better off with God can be bewildering in the face of unforeseen death.

Now and the hour of our death; these two moments in life are inevitably drawing closer together. For the 26 Polish pilgrims killed so tragically in a coach crash in France on their way home, the two moments unexpectedly became the same moment. The knowledge that they had been visiting the shrine dedicated to the Virgin Mary at La Salette only underlined the poignancy of this sudden, unmerited death.

They will have recited the Hail Mary many times on their pilgrimage and maybe they were reciting it at the moment their coach crashed through the safety barriers; perhaps its concluding phrase was on their lips in their final agony: "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." The image of good and devout people saying that prayer just before they died will be a comfort to their relatives. But in the many stages of grief their families may also experience anger with the God who allowed this to happen.

When bad things happen to good people, it is hard to suppress our indignation: and because religious believers are sometimes tempted to see faith as keeping our side of a bargain with God, we can be just as indignant. Why does God allow it?

It is scant consolation to the relatives of the Polish pilgrims that some kind of brake failure or driver error may have been the cause of the crash. Even if human fallibility had a hand in causing the tragedy, we can still ask God: why then, why pilgrims, why? The same question is asked of moral evils such as murder and war: why does God not protect the innocent? And we can ask the question even more forcefully when facing natural evil such as earthquakes, where there are no human agents – only human victims.

Our first response to such tragedies is the same for atheist and theist alike: we want to help. The Boxing Day tsunami in 2004 that killed 200,000 people evoked a tidal wave of generosity. The deluges currently striking our own country are not on that scale but they too evoke waves of loving kindness: the passer-by who swam to haul a driver to safety through the car's sun roof; people whose own homes were flooded piling sand bags to save other people's houses; a hotel opening its doors to the elderly.

But the question still nags. How can God either allow or, even worse, cause such suffering? For the atheist, the answer is: God does not allow or cause such suffering because God does not exist. The agnostic may want to believe in God but simply cannot see how evil and God can coexist. For the indifferent, Cardinal Newman's words may apply: "To them, the difficulty is only so much gain, for it gives them an apparent reason, a sort of excuse, for not going with God's rule, for deciding in their own way." Yet atheists, agnostics and the indifferent are unable to dislodge the persistence of faith in others.

Which leaves the believer affirming that since God is all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful, God must have made the best Universe that it is possible to make. The interplay between human freedom, the laws of nature and the love of God is the right mix. Sometimes personal pain and suffering may eclipse the vision of God but the faithful wait for the light to return; this holding on to faith is the virtue of hope. And if we want a role model for hope, then we need look no further than Job.

The Book of Job tells the story of the archetypal just man who perseveres in hope. When he experiences the sudden loss of his wealth and his children, he still prays: "God has given and God has taken away, blessed be God." When he loses his own health and sits in the ash pit scraping the pus from his sores, even his wife tells him it's time to curse God. But he refuses. He cries out to God and demands to know why he is suffering. His comforters insist he must have done something wrong and that he is being punished for it. But Job has a clean conscience and refuses to accept that there is any link between his suffering and moral wrongdoing. Job simply does not understand what is happening to him, yet he refuses to let go of faith in God. When God finally addresses Job it is to affirm that faith: God is the all-powerful creator of the Universe, whose plans cannot be understood by human beings; so Job falls silent in the face of God's overwhelming wisdom.

For reasons known only to God, the world is as it is. We are invited to join in God's creative act of world-making which we now know is not a seven-day wonder but a continuous bringing to birth. To hold on to this vision in the face of injustices and natural disasters is the very act of faith; it is to believe that caring for victims and striving for a just society are the very heart of life.

A classic image of Mary in art is that of her cradling the corpse of her son, Jesus. Amid the floods and the coach crashes, faith invites us all to join Mary in cradling the living and even the dead, knowing that these acts of faith and love are filled with hope, now and at the hour of our death.

Christopher Jamison is the Abbot of Worth and author of Finding Sanctuary: Monastic Steps for Everyday Life

Comments 1 - 40 of 40 |

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1. Comment #58659 by decius on July 25, 2007 at 4:37 pm

 avatar"When bad things happen to good people".

How do we know that they were good people? Assuming as much, just because they were on their way to worship someone else's hallucination, doesn't seem very rational.
Much more likely that they were a bunch of homophobic bigots, like the majority of Polish catholics.

Too cynical? Who cares.

Other Comments by decius

2. Comment #58660 by Macho Nachos on July 25, 2007 at 4:38 pm

 avatarDelete the last 4 paragraphs, and you have a decent article.

He doesn't address the problems he poses at the start at all. He just says "well, we don't know, but being faithful is good enough for me".

Job strikes me as an idiot. Why would you follow a God who put you through all that horrible hardship just to test you, then when he reveals himself at the end, says "you wouldn't understand."? At that point I'd put my middle finger square in his metaphorical face and tell him to send me to Hell so I never have to deal with him again.

Other Comments by Macho Nachos

3. Comment #58662 by RonnieG on July 25, 2007 at 4:42 pm

"Which leaves the believer affirming that since God is all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful, God must have made the best Universe that it is possible to make."

Well, that just about says it all, doesn't it? Forget the people who suffer horrible tragedies due to the chaotic and dangerous planet on which we find ourselves living, just try telling that to those that have had appendicitis and some common sense and see if that registers; why would an omnipotent God create an organ useless for anything besides infection? Dumbasses.

Other Comments by RonnieG

4. Comment #58667 by Bonzai on July 25, 2007 at 4:59 pm

I can write a much shorter piece:

God works in mysterious way that we finite humans cannot comprehend so we should accept whatever card dealt to us because there is a greater wisdom behind it all.

See I can impersonate a minister very convincingly because the standard answer is just so well worn.

Other Comments by Bonzai

5. Comment #58672 by Goldy on July 25, 2007 at 5:17 pm

Damn, took the letters right out of my keyboard! :-)
Shit happens, accept.

Other Comments by Goldy

6. Comment #58674 by Kakashi_monkey on July 25, 2007 at 5:22 pm

 avatarMy family and I often have discussions about God and religion (we're all atheists), and this always come up. A real God would not allow human suffering. And if it's a test, we're failing it; crimes and hate still exist everywhere. God must be pretty naughty up there, if we're in his image.

Other Comments by Kakashi_monkey

7. Comment #58680 by BT Murtagh on July 25, 2007 at 6:30 pm

 avatarShorter version:

The atheist position is beautifully simple; there isn't a paradox here, there simply isn't a God there to intervene. What would you expect?

The theist response is just a further surrender to unreason; we can't understand, just accept it anyway. Whatever you do, don't check your premises!

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

8. Comment #58685 by justin willemse on July 25, 2007 at 7:06 pm

final words of the pilgims before they crashed- Holy Mary! Mother of God! We are all going to die!!!! Their prayers were answered..

I know that is dark... sorry!

Other Comments by justin willemse

9. Comment #58692 by steveroot on July 25, 2007 at 7:50 pm

 avatar
For reasons known only to God, the world is as it is.

No need for further inquiry.

RonnyG, obviously you are not thinking scripturally. When that appendix was created 6,000 years ago, it was to help digest sin. Since it has been overloaded, it has shrivelled to a fraction of its former glory. Praise!
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

10. Comment #58720 by Quetzalcoatl on July 26, 2007 at 12:53 am

 avatar
Which leaves the believer affirming that since God is all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful, God must have made the best Universe that it is possible to make.


Chris obviously doesn't read the paper he writes for.

Sometimes personal pain and suffering may eclipse the vision of God but the faithful wait for the light to return; this holding on to faith is the virtue of hope.


It's not the virtue of hope. It's shutting your eyes to the reality of the world and going "La la la, I believe, la la la, God is good, la la la". The guy makes no attempt to address this. But then, I don't suppose he can. If something convincing could be said, it would have been by now. Instead, all we get are vague appeals to faith.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

11. Comment #58721 by Corylus on July 26, 2007 at 12:56 am

 avatarAn Abbott who watches Jim Carrey films - now that is God working in mysterious ways. There's one of my six impossible things before breakfast right there. (Gives them something to do in the monastery I guess).

I am not going to be too harsh on the guy, this was a well written article even if I disagree. Hell, at least he didn't pull out the atheists are moral slugs card...
Our first response to such tragedies is the same for atheist and theist alike: we want to help.

Abbott, if your reading this: Don't bother with Liar, Liar - I watched it and nearly lost the will to live.

Other Comments by Corylus

12. Comment #58725 by irate_atheist on July 26, 2007 at 1:35 am

 avatarer...and I'm supposed to respect the beliefs of deluded fools like these?

Brigstocke is right - give us our planet back.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

13. Comment #58727 by rokort on July 26, 2007 at 2:08 am

 avatar
God must have made the best Universe that it is possible to make. The interplay between human freedom, the laws of nature and the love of God is the right mix

The "rules of God" we have here on this planet, in the universe i'm sort of aware of, suppress freedom, ignore laws of nature, and force to love something which isn't there.

Now i know what's happening: though we can see 'em, theists are living in a different universe!

What a load of ..... [fill in favorite expletive]

Other Comments by rokort

14. Comment #58733 by Quetzalcoatl on July 26, 2007 at 2:22 am

 avatarRokort-

Now i know what's happening: though we can see 'em, theists are living in a different universe!


If only. It'd be a lot quieter. And much more pleasant, probably.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

15. Comment #58735 by ScienceBreath on July 26, 2007 at 2:28 am

What a truly revolting piece of crap. I feel embarrassed for the writer that he, as an adult, would willingly submit this nonsense for publication.

Other Comments by ScienceBreath

16. Comment #58736 by NJS on July 26, 2007 at 2:34 am

If the coach had plunged down the ravine but somehow the people had survived, it would of course been a miracle of God looking after his faithful - they died so whats the response?

As I've said before the worst thing I've ever heard a theist say was a woman who survived a train crash in the UK a few years ago and then questioned what the people who died believed.

I also agree with the first poster that pilgrim does not equal good person.

Other Comments by NJS

17. Comment #58737 by CJ22 on July 26, 2007 at 2:37 am

 avatarJamison's God and no god at all appear to be semantically equivalent. You could remove his God from the universe and it would still be the same. In which case, what bloody use is his God?

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Jesus say that if you pray sincerely for something you will get it? How does the power of prayer square with bad things happening to good people.

This article has a fatuousness that could only be generated by somebody so blinded by faith that his conclusions precede his reasoning.

Other Comments by CJ22

18. Comment #58749 by Tyler Durden on July 26, 2007 at 3:26 am

 avatar
Boxing Day tsunami in 2004 that killed 200,000 people evoked a tidal wave of generosity.

Poor choice of words even if he was trying to be funny (which he wasn't). Idiot.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

19. Comment #58751 by Quetzalcoatl on July 26, 2007 at 3:36 am

 avatarJust spotted this-

Which leaves the believer affirming that since God is all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful, God must have made the best Universe that it is possible to make.


An Omnipotent God, and THIS WORLD is the best he can do? What a load of crap!

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

20. Comment #58752 by BillySands on July 26, 2007 at 3:37 am

 avatar
why then, why pilgrims, why?


Erm, stab in the dark here, because god doesn't exist?
Surely the faithfull should be celebrating the fact they have gone to heaven.

Other Comments by BillySands

21. Comment #58754 by Quetzalcoatl on July 26, 2007 at 3:39 am

 avatar
why then, why pilgrims, why?


Implying that it would have been much better for someone less "devout" to die, instead. Very Christian.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

22. Comment #58755 by BillySands on July 26, 2007 at 3:40 am

 avatar
An Omnipotent God, and THIS WORLD is the best he can do?

Yeah he could have created a world without earthquakes or volcanoes - he could have made elements that dont decay and release radiation - oh yes, and he could have omitted to make maggots that feast on living brains etc

Other Comments by BillySands

23. Comment #58795 by steveroot on July 26, 2007 at 7:00 am

 avatarI've never been a "believer", but a milestone in my development as an atheist happened in response to a similar event. An AMTRAK train had crashed in the South and there were several injuries and one death. I was on a platform waiting for a train and another passenger remarked that it was "a grace" that only one person was killed. The weird thing was that she called it a "grrrrrrace", kind of like Tony the Tiger, but I sensed that meant to imply that it was some kind of aggressive (yet curiously beneficial) behavior on the part of god. Probably some stupid church-learned thing. Anyway, I asked her if she would like to offer that explanation to the family of the dead person; she walked away and no longer speaks to me. PRAISE!
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

24. Comment #58821 by hungarianelephant on July 26, 2007 at 8:29 am

 avatarSlightly OT, but has anyone else noticed what terrible drivers many Christians are? Fish on back of car = reckless idiot at the wheel. I guess God will protect them.

I used to live near a happy-clappy church, where many of the drivers had a big bumper sticker, bearing the simple legend "JESUS". I think they got the idea from what the heathens would frequently shout at them, just after they pulled out of a junction without looking.

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25. Comment #58823 by DC_Runner on July 26, 2007 at 8:50 am

An interesting title: "How could God allow 26 pilgrims to die ..."

If this 'God' supposedly is all powerful, shouldn't the title be: "Why did God kill 26 pilgrims?"?

Other Comments by DC_Runner

26. Comment #58824 by Quetzalcoatl on July 26, 2007 at 8:53 am

 avatarIt's not God's fault. He took two minutes to go to the bathroom, when he gets back, they're dead. Give the Guy a break. Everyone has to answer nature's call.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

27. Comment #58832 by Henri Bergson on July 26, 2007 at 10:46 am

 avatarAtheism overrides theodicy.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

28. Comment #58848 by DarwinsPitbull on July 26, 2007 at 11:52 am

It's funny he mentions the book of Job but misses a very important part of the story. The reason god takes job's health, wealth and family away from him is because he has a wager going with the devil. So the real point of the story is that god's ego is the only thing god cares about. That is a terrible story to use to try and make a point about suffering and pain and why god lets it happen. Apparently the author of this article never really read the story, probably just heard it from a preacher who cut out the section where it says god does those terrible things to job over a bet.

Other Comments by DarwinsPitbull

29. Comment #58887 by Duff on July 26, 2007 at 2:27 pm

God didn't kill those pilgrims! There was an unbeliever in that group who God wanted to kill and he did. The rest killed themselves because they didn't have the foresight to resolve that an unbeliever was amongst them. Don't lay their lack of clarity at God's feet. Dammit.

Other Comments by Duff

30. Comment #58975 by Damien White on July 26, 2007 at 8:24 pm

Christian grief makes a mockery of their entire belief system. If they truly believed in their religion, they would celebrate death as the moment upon which the deceased achieved that which they had worked towards their whole lives.

This article is yet another example of the total hypocracy of christianity.

Other Comments by Damien White

31. Comment #59127 by PaulJ on July 27, 2007 at 1:16 pm

 avatar
For reasons known only to God, the world is as it is. We are invited to join in God's creative act of world-making which we now know is not a seven-day wonder but a continuous bringing to birth. To hold on to this vision in the face of injustices and natural disasters is the very act of faith; it is to believe that caring for victims and striving for a just society are the very heart of life.
Very nice. Very comforting. And totally devoid of reason. I offer this slightly amended version: "To hold on to this vision in the face of injustices and natural disasters is the very act of utter denial..."

Other Comments by PaulJ

32. Comment #59183 by scottishgeologist on July 28, 2007 at 1:09 am

 avatarThere was an incident a bit like this in the north of Scotland last year - 3 people killed. They were from a Free Church youth camp (David "Wee Flea" Robertsons church)

Old man and 2 Peruvian boys killed. Story is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/5230666.stm

Pretty sad and sorry tale.

And of course very little attempt at a "god of love" explanation. I remember looking for some sort of thought provoking answers, but no. Just the usual "his ways are above ours" "he has a plan" "questions that we shouldnt ask" "his understanding is infinite" "sin obscures our understanding of such things" "gone to be with their Lord"

In other words the usual, pathetic, worthless BS faith head responses to tragedy and suffering.

Someone (on another thread) actually touched on the reasons for this ludicrous refusal of pastors in particular to accept the obvious "emperors no clothes" answer: they have invested so much of their lives in "faith" , in this baseless, worthless delusion, that if they were to say "hey, you know youre right" they would just at a stroke write off their entire lives up to that point as worthless.

I wonder how many actually have real doubts, but are actually trapped in the whole delusion and dare not deny it? Like gays who feel oppression but dare not come out due to the fear?

Often wondered about that.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

33. Comment #59189 by Rtambree on July 28, 2007 at 3:37 am

I don't see what the mystery is for a Christian. God loved the victims so much He called them to be with Him. Surely being in heaven is much better than being on Earth with taxes, wars, suffering, cancer, Paris Hilton, etc.

The brain can find hundreds of different ways to confabulate.

Other Comments by Rtambree

34. Comment #59190 by Wadsworth on July 28, 2007 at 3:43 am

It is useless trying to give a reasoned response to such rubbish as this article; a better way is to dismiss it with the contempt it deserves. No wonder atheists exist if the alternative is Theism.

Other Comments by Wadsworth

35. Comment #59195 by Logicel on July 28, 2007 at 4:23 am

 avatarOn this past Wednesday, I found myself on the same route as the pilgrims. As our bus was winding down the declining road, flanked with precipitous views, I faced my own fears regarding death and particularly any pain that would be involved. Trapped in a burning vehicle has to be one of the worst ways to die. My thought was that I would have been too occupied from trying to escape the burning bus to be concerned about anything else; my focus would have been all fight or flight.

I discussed with my husband as to the reasons for the crash--the bus did not have back-up breaks. He pointed out that our bus had 2 back-ups. The most important aspect of their deaths is that the crash only happened because the bus was not properly equipped for the voyage it undertook. What does God have to with it? With such a useless viewpoint, how would one focus on preventing such a crash? Religious folks focus on absolutely ineffective and unhelpful aspects.

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36. Comment #59199 by keith on July 28, 2007 at 7:07 am

 avatarWow, not only do the religious have the lion's share of bad ideas but also an awful way of expressing them, a kind of double-whammy. Does the writer really believe that earthquakes are a "natural evil"? If I trip over a stone, stagger into a canal and drown, is that stone evil? And is the water I drowned in evil too? Are lions evil because they sometimes kill us? Doesn't our notion of evil have something to do with intention, something to do with being able to have acted otherwise?
But hey, in the context of the views themselves, this is just pedantic nit-picking, like objecting to finding a hair in your soup when the soup itself is made of horse urine.

Other Comments by keith

37. Comment #59200 by Russell Blackford on July 28, 2007 at 7:47 am

Earthquakes are natural evils. They are not moral evils. In this context, "an evil" is just something we regard as bad (because it kills people, causes suffering, or whatever). Of course, when we describe people or their actions as "evil", we are usually thinking of moral evil. When an earthquake or something is called a "natural evil", the point is being made that it was a bad thing to happen but not something that involved moral fault.

This terminology is used by atheist philosophers as well as by religionists; there's nothing especially tendentious about it.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

38. Comment #59510 by Duff on July 29, 2007 at 9:44 am

RonnieG, you call those believing, religious people who cannot fathom an imperfect world created by a perfect god, "dumbasses". They are not dumbasses! They are Dumb Asses!! Lets get our facts straight!

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39. Comment #59603 by keith on July 29, 2007 at 10:26 pm

 avatarThank you Russell, I stand corrected.

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