Saturday, July 28, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version

Come Out!

by PZ Myers, Pharyngula

&tReposted from:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/come_out.php

A while back, I floated the idea of a logo for the godless. There was a lot of enthusiasm for the idea, and a lot of good design ideas came out of it … maybe too many good ideas. And being a mob of atheists, there was absolutely no consensus on what was the best symbol to use. Finally, I didn't want to impose a logo on anyone, so I just let it drop to see if anyone would simply start using one of the suggested designs, that maybe a consensus might coalesce. I saw a few of the logos on scattered sites, but there wasn't much of a spontaneous response, and alas, every single site used a different logo. Typical atheists.

Now, though, there is one possible option: the RDF has started the Out Campaign, an effort to get atheists to publicly and proudly declare their status. It has a slightly different meaning — it's not exactly a symbol of atheism, but more a symbol of the willingness to come out about your disbelief — but it's nice, it's simple, it's clean. It's a simple red Zapfino "A", the scarlet letter.

Go ahead, use it. I've got one on the sidebar to testify to my openness about my ideas of the nature of the universe, we should all spread it far and wide. I'll even make it easy for you: you can use this code to put one on your website, if you're one of us loud and proud atheists.

<div style="text-align:center"><a href="http://outcampaign.org/"><img src="http://pharyngula.org/images/scarlet_A.png" border="0" alt="image" width="143" height="122" /></a></div>

One weird thing about this development, though, is that it sure brings out the whiners and concern trolls. I'm a little bit surprised at the response at the Dawkins site, with far too many rushing to complain. You'll see two kinds of negative reactions.

The nay-sayers who complain that this is too much like Christianity, it's a uniform, it's Dawkins trying to enforce conformity. How ridiculous. It's a freakin' t-shirt or bumper sticker, not the High Holy Cathedral of the Sacred Letter A. You can wear it or you can skip it. You can use it to wipe the sweat off after a workout. You might wear it to a barbecue at the park. Wear it while you're doing the dishes. It's ;em>casual wear. It's a nice shirt that sends a straightforward message about your willingness to be unafraid, nothing more, with no other deep significance. It will not be part of the dress code.

The shrinking violets who complain that it's too bold, it's too in-your-face, it'll make us a target. Talk about missing the point: yes, it's supposed to be bold. You are supposed to be bold. Begging for a tiny little delicate bit of subtle embroidery on a shirt pocket means this movement is not for you. Don't wear the shirt. Don't put the bumper sticker on your car. Don't say a word — it's easy to pass as a Christian or a Muslim, you know.

Just don't try to claim that you're helping.

The Myers family ordered a few t-shirts, and my car will have the bumper sticker on it. We aren't afraid. Especially not to make such a trivial commitment.

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1. Comment #59328 by AmericanHumanist on July 28, 2007 at 8:03 pm

I'd love to sport the scarlet letter, but I'd be fired under some silly pretense.

An atheistic school administrator in Georgia? Not under this theocracy....

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2. Comment #59330 by tb22 on July 28, 2007 at 8:03 pm

I like the idea. I bought a black medium. I'm going to wear it around Atlanta. High five supporters. High one constructive critics. Low negative 10 unconstructive critics.

Other Comments by tb22

3. Comment #59333 by Jack Rawlinson on July 28, 2007 at 8:17 pm

A-men, PZ. I'm a Brit who has been living in the States for over five years now. Back in my relatively godless homeland I wouldn't see much point in this, but over here I definitely do. I'll be ordering one.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

4. Comment #59335 by Jack Rawlinson on July 28, 2007 at 8:21 pm

By the way, I particularly agree with you about those who are worried that the symbol is too prominent. Lordy, isn't that the point? You don't "come out" by trying to be unobtrusive and hoping no one notices!

I still have a fondness for my old Negativland T-shirt, which says in great big letters: "Christianity is Stupid. Give Up". That goes down well in the south. :-)

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

5. Comment #59336 by BAEOZ on July 28, 2007 at 8:30 pm

I just posted the link to the scarlet letter on my myspace site. If they hadn't already realized I was atheist before; with the Richard Dawkins, PZ myers' and Charles Darwin being amongst my friends and my select quotes about evolution and such, they don't need to be deluded anymore. :)
myspace/wearethecrap <-- gratuitous plug.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

6. Comment #59341 by Enlightenme.. on July 28, 2007 at 8:40 pm

"I still have a fondness for my old Negativland T-shirt, which says in great big letters: "Christianity is Stupid. Give Up". That goes down well in the south. :-)"

I sell Cradle of Filth T-shirts to the kids in my shop - some great slogans on the back, such as;
'metal forged on the heat of wanking nuns', and the notorious 'Jesus is a [c-word]'.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

7. Comment #59352 by maton100 on July 28, 2007 at 9:07 pm

Alright, but if I get my ass kicked by Bubbalicious and the Do-Right Charlies...I'm gettin' a sponsor at TED to pay for the medical claims processing.

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8. Comment #59366 by BT Murtagh on July 28, 2007 at 9:48 pm

Just a note to those who tremble to wear an A because it's too dangerous - get real!

I'm in South Carolina, one of the reddest Bible Belt states there is. Today I'm wearing a t-shirt listing "6 Impossible Things to believe before breakfast: Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Pink Unicorn, Spaghetti Monster, God." Yesterday it was my "American Atheist" jersey with those words and a big bright red-white-and-blue Atheist Atom symbol. The day before it was "Fine, I evolved, you didn't" with the Christian and Darwin fish. Before that it was my faux-Listerine label "ATHEISM: Rinse away religious beliefs and superstitious nitwittery. Kills Dogma on Contact!" Before that... well, you get the picture.

I have atheism-related t-shirts for every day of the week, and I wear them all the time; I'm about as "out" as it is possible to be without tattooing it on my forehead. My major complaint about this A t-shirt is that it isn't obvious enough. I prefer to go straight toward the frankness-bordering-on-offensive end of the spectrum.

Did I mention that I live in South Carolina? You can hardly spit here without hitting a fundamentalist church. You know I'm offending the hell out of these people every day, and twice on Sunday.

I have never gotten worse than a dirty look from any of the fundies I am totally surrounded by. So can we please tone down the "I'm afraid to wear a big red A, because they might string me up to the nearest lamppost" rhetoric? Yes, there's prejudice against atheists, but get a grip, they're not lynching us for it.

(I will admit I'm damn glad I'm not gay as well!)

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

9. Comment #59368 by montiff on July 28, 2007 at 9:55 pm

If only this came in a necklace form....

Will someone please design the big red A. So I can show it off to my cross bearing friends.

Cheers from Texas.

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10. Comment #59382 by GoodbyeGodNZ on July 28, 2007 at 10:24 pm

Yippee!!! I've just ordered a T shirt and will soon be rolling it out in the streets down here in New Zealand.

Like Montiff above, I'd really love something that I could hang around my neck on a nice necklace chain.

Other Comments by GoodbyeGodNZ

11. Comment #59384 by Charlie Wiederhold on July 28, 2007 at 10:36 pm

I would eagerly purchase one if it didn't have the Richard Dawkins URL at the bottom. Instead of making a statement about what I believe in... I feel like I'm making an advertisement statement.

I would much rather have the shirt be something that might invoke a conversation where I then tell people to check out the Richard Dawkins page if it seems like something that they would be receptive to.

I hold this same feeling on all clothing I purchase though, and only like a URL if it really is the point of wearing the shirt in the first place. Case in point: If the URL directed to OutCampaign.org instead, then it would feel more appropriate to me. It would even be a way of encouraging conversation because of the very clear association that comes with the phrase "coming out"... and being able to put the conversation of Atheists coming out on the same level and associate it in the mind of people who never thought of it that way.

I also think the OutCampaign.org URL is more likely to have someone curious type it in to "see what that bumper sticker with the A was all about".

Richard, with my absolute support of what he does, comes with an immediate perception for better and worse so if someone has been misinformed of what Richard is all about, but have in fact heard of him are not likely to go to the URL. However the more campaign specifically will give them a chance to read up on the subject without immediately being put in front of Richard and the community around him.

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12. Comment #59385 by Summer Seale on July 28, 2007 at 10:45 pm

I just posted in the previous discussion, but I'll post here again: I'm not against the campaign. I just never have felt unwelcome because I am an atheist.

Seriously has like...anyone else?

Everyone, even evangelicals, know my views and talk to me often about it, but they never, ever, have been angry with me at all, or called me names or threatened me in any way, or even mentioned "hellfire" and all that crap. None of them. And I go to a lot of "Red States". So is it just me...? I've never been religious, and even religious people seem to just respect my views - debate me sure but never in a bad way.

All these stories about atheists feeling unsafe...maybe part of that is in your minds? I don't know. Maybe it's just as bad as that but it doesn't sound like any part of America that I know of or have ever experienced...

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13. Comment #59393 by tb22 on July 28, 2007 at 11:13 pm

I've been pretty subtle about it, and I've never felt threatened. I don't doubt that if one decides to be less subtle... and/or travels to certain areas of the country (probably not cities), it could be relatively easy to run into some trouble. I can easily imagine situations where I would feel unwelcome with people I know if I were to speak as bluntly as Dawkins or Harris do at times (which I feel like doing, and feel that I should be able to do).

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14. Comment #59397 by Summer Seale on July 28, 2007 at 11:35 pm

I do all the time...nobody has threatened me ever - in the south, the midwest, and the southwest. It's just...never happened. Maybe they just don't wanna hit a woman? =)

Really tho I've never, ever, had a problem. I do believe the people who say they have but I've never seen it and I'm *really* outspoken about my ideas. I'm a loudmouth who won't shut up on any topic I like to discuss. =)

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15. Comment #59400 by Rieux on July 29, 2007 at 12:01 am

nobody has threatened me ever - in the south, the midwest, and the southwest. It's just...never happened.

Then I think you should consider yourself lucky!

A few years ago, there was an article in Free Inquiry magazine on the topic of discrimination against atheists--and the writer had found ample evidence that it's widespread. Take a look: http://tinyurl.com/37683 .

A few other cites (and sites) that are more recent, and very much on topic:

Law review article finding that non-religious parents routinely lose custody of their children, because of the parents' lack of religion, during divorce cases: http://tinyurl.com/yov2rh

Sociology article documenting the degree to which atheists are a despised minority in the U.S.: http://tinyurl.com/p6npl

And the long-standing "Would you vote for an X for president" poll, in which we've been coming in dead last for decades: http://tinyurl.com/2eyhr9

I dunno--given the evidence from sources like these, I think the "Aw, is there really a problem with bigotry against atheists?" sentiment risks being severely insensitive, if not outright dangerous.

I'm in favor of out-and-proud tactics. If scarlet-A t-shirts make us a more visible, stronger minority, I'm all for it.

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16. Comment #59412 by Beachbum on July 29, 2007 at 1:48 am

After reading the info from the links posted by Rieux, by the way thanks, besides the T-shirts I may get a Tatoo.

Does anyone know who makes Large shipments of Red paint to Hawaii?

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17. Comment #59414 by hcholm on July 29, 2007 at 2:07 am

Not too happy about this one. Atheism isn't just another ideology with symbols and uniforms. Atheism is about non-dogmatism and freedom, but with symbols like this one, it becomes too easy for critics to say that atheism is "just another religion". The same goes for the "Brights movement", which fortunately looks like it has flopped. The lack of organisation and uniformity may be one of the weakest points of atheism, but at the same time, it's one of the strongest. Please leave it like that.

It's like the famous Monty Python quote: "We're all individuals". In this case, I'm not.

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18. Comment #59418 by sanjiv on July 29, 2007 at 2:30 am

I'm from India - a very religious and superstitious country. Also a very violent country when it comes to religion being attacked. Nevertheless, I'm as Out an atheist as they come. I never lose an opportunity to undermine religious faith. My style is more in the form of planting seeds of doubt. A 'God bless' or 'Thank God' from religious folk is always accompanied by 'Which God?' and a smile from me. I never miss an opportunity to reply to religious chain-mails to sow my seeds of doubt.

But.....(sorry PZM and RD, I've got to use the 'but' word), I don't have a bumper sticker or wear T-shirts proclaiming my non-belief. No, I'm not afraid of being attacked. 'God' is a common noun. Most people won't attack you for attacking the common noun 'God'. Most people I know would be content to accommodate atheism as just another religion but without a God and not debate the issue. No debate, no discussion, is precisely what's bad for the growth of atheism and helps religions.

I'm not against grouping or having a symbol that bonds us, but it should be effective and work towards achieving the end-result of replacing un-reason with reason as a way of thinking to deal with our fears and uncertainties.

I don't think T-shirts or bumper stickers are going to cause much damage to religious beliefs unless they sow seeds of doubt and makes people entertain questions about their beliefs. The most they may achieve is bond like-minded people – and I am one of your like-minded people – very atheistic, very free-thinking.

The Out campaign is a welcome initiative. I support it and will join it when I find something that fits my style of attack on religion. In the mean time I encourage all those who wear the T-shirt and sport bumper stickers. Each one to his own style of attack on religion. Our Four Musketeers – Sam, Daniel, Richard and Christopher (also Ayaan, Salman and many others) each have their own style and I agree to a large extent with all of them and applaud their efforts. Similarly I applaud all those who sport atheistic T-shirts and bumper stickers but let's not forget those who contribute to furthering reason by just not taking part in religious rituals or quietly undermining religious belief. The population of the latter is a lot greater, so let's not undermine their quiet efforts. They will 'come out' in their own time.

We are a widely dispersed team with a common objective. Let's support each others efforts

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19. Comment #59421 by AdrianT on July 29, 2007 at 2:36 am

Like the logo, and will definitely be seen doing gigs with it - the A fits perfectly in my case!!

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20. Comment #59424 by BMMcArdle on July 29, 2007 at 3:01 am

Out, nowadays, has conotations related to hidden homosexuality.
A large "A", also known as the scarlett letter, is punishment for aldulterers.

Looks like something Jerry Falwell would have come up with.

Other Comments by BMMcArdle

21. Comment #59428 by BT Murtagh on July 29, 2007 at 3:17 am

There's no doubt that we're a widely despised lot, and I can't blame people for being hesitant to "come out" as atheists. They can expect to be shunned and distrusted, and possibly may face illegal job discrimination and the like. If they put atheist bumper stickers and the like on their cars those may get vandalized.

There seems to be a perception floating about that we're in constant danger of actual physical assault, though, and it's that aspect of it - and only that aspect - which I am asserting has been greatly exagerrated. The only physical assault I know of an atheist suffering (it's listed in one of Rieux's links) is a kid in high school being bullied by other high school kids.

As I said above, I'm a very out and obvious atheist in a very fundamentalist part of the country (plus I'm a physically unimposing guy) and I've never had so much as a hint of violence offered me. I don't think physical violence is a danger in America under any but very exceptional circumstances. I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think I am.

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22. Comment #59432 by jonjermey on July 29, 2007 at 3:30 am

Sanjiv -

It's always easier to hold on to a belief when you don't know that other beliefs exist. It's always more comforting to believe something when you feel that everyone around you believes it too. It's always harder to change your beliefs when you don't know anyone in the world who believes differently. Wearing a t-shirt may be no big deal to anyone, but enough people wearing enough t-shirts is going to gradually get the message across - atheists are here, and we're not going to be ignored any more.

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23. Comment #59433 by The author on July 29, 2007 at 3:32 am

"A for Anarchy" - that's what people would think here, not that I care.

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24. Comment #59437 by flyingscot on July 29, 2007 at 3:49 am

I think the T shirt is great. The logo is eye catching and it advertises a great site.
Excellent!

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25. Comment #59447 by Rieux on July 29, 2007 at 4:51 am

BMMcArdle:

Out, nowadays, has conotations related to hidden homosexuality.

Indeed. And, as Dawkins (among many others) have noticed, gays and lesbians have lately been fighting a very successful campaign to (1) promote humane treatment of sexual minorities and (2) convince society that homophobic speech and actions are wrong and should be discouraged. One major tactic in this struggle has been public campaigns to "come out." I suspect the tactic is only part of the reason, but regardless, the attempt to improve societal attitudes toward gays and lesbians is succeeding mightily. I wish we were doing as well!

A large "A", also known as the scarlett letter, is punishment for aldulterers.

It was, at least, in one novel by Nathaniel Hawthorne, yes. But, er, so what? I think that's cute--it gives this T-shirt an amusing literary tie-in. We're mocking the attitude that atheism is (like adultery) something shameful that one would only make public if one were forced to do so.

Looks like something Jerry Falwell would have come up with.

Maybe. If so, I don't think he would have liked the result. We'd have shoved those scarlet A's right down his theocratic throat.

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26. Comment #59448 by gcdavis on July 29, 2007 at 4:52 am

The idea behind this campaign is flawed and some of the reasons have already been aired, A = anarchy, OUT is completely associated with Gay issues. The other problem is geography, in the UK being an atheist is not an issue publicly, politically or commercially. In parts of the US and the wider world it obviously is a big issue. Paradoxically although church and state are separated by the American Constitution you have seen a greater corruption of politics by religion than we have in the UK. Here although we do not have a written constitution with any such guarantees, our body politic is not corrupted by religion, just a little tainted perhaps by specific issues like the state funding of a small number of faith schools and our archaic system where the Queen, our head of state, is also head of our "official" religion the church of England. Nobody gets fired for being an atheist here.

Atheism is an absence of faith, it isn't any thing else! It is illogical to mount a campaign and contrive logos to defend and support an empty space. Rather the campaign should be opposition to religious privilege, influence and corruption. What we are is secularists, that is a tangible and real position to hold and our primary effort in each of our countries should be to shore up and defend secular institutions against an assault by religious authoritarianism and stop trying to "get off" on being atheists.

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27. Comment #59449 by Rieux on July 29, 2007 at 4:58 am

BT Murtagh:

The only physical assault I know of an atheist suffering (it's listed in one of Rieux's links) is a kid in high school being bullied by other high school kids.

Well, there is the incident described here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Mirecki , bottom of page), too. And I would bet heavily that there are many more incidents of schoolyard beatings similar to the Calgary case you read at one of my links ( http://tinyurl.com/37683 ).

Otherwise, I agree--assault is not the primary problem atheists face. But (as I think you recognize) other things, like employment discrimination, custody discrimination, family shunning, etc., are very real problems.

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28. Comment #59452 by Rieux on July 29, 2007 at 5:12 am

gcdavis:

OUT is completely associated with Gay issues.

But, as I just pointed out, the analogy is nearly perfect. Society understands what it means to be "out," "in the closet," and so on--and it tracks almost exactly with the experience of being an atheist in a fundamentalist society. (Plus, GLBT rights movements happen to be winning right now.) That similarity is good, not bad.

The other problem is geography, in the UK being an atheist is not an issue publicly, politically or commercially. In parts of the US and the wider world it obviously is a big issue.

Well, thanks a freakin' lot. What do those of us who live in places where it's a "big issue" need to do in order for you to allow us a little attempt at community-building? Should we bow and scrape a little more? How nice it must be for you that you don't have to worry about atheophobia in your life. Shame we all aren't so fortunate.

Atheism is an absence of faith, it isn't any thing else!

And "gay" is a sexual orientation, "black" is a (basically undefinable) range of skin pigmentation, "female" is a mater of chromosomes and gender identity....

What all of those words have in common is that they describe categories of human beings (and obviously they're not an exhaustive list) who are frequently subject to oppression by people who don't like them. Like it or not, you belong in a subset of humanity that is detested by a much larger subset of humanity merely because your "absence of faith"; we're a class because much of the world treats us that way. For those of us who aren't lucky enough to be able to escape oppression by living thousands of miles away from it, banding together can be a vital survival strategy.

I suppose someone here can put the whole point in Selfish Gene-ish terms....

Other Comments by Rieux

29. Comment #59462 by gcdavis on July 29, 2007 at 6:27 am

Rieux
You're missing the point; sure you can wander around with a big A and an OUT slogan on your shirt, you will probably labelled as a gay anarchist but what the hell. My point is the "fight" should be between secularism and religion, this is a political and human rights issue. To say look at me I am an atheist is not enough! Education should be free from religious bias or bigotry; this can only be achieved by political action and social activism.

Other Comments by gcdavis

30. Comment #59465 by Henri Bergson on July 29, 2007 at 6:40 am

I think I am one of the ones labeled a 'nay-sayer' by PZMyers (see my rebuttal of his arguments in the previous article).

Indeed I am a nay-sayer with regard to this. The following points still stand:

- Theists say atheism is a religion. By making a symbol for atheism you're playing into their hands.
- The symbol is a common Zapfino font (dull, over-used, already trade-marked).
- Wearing something that tells people what you do not believe in is defensive - showing a lack of confidence.
- It's simply unstylish, sad.
- 'A' will be quickly re-labelled 'Asshole' (as PGFM points out). Combined with it being called 'The Out Campaign', you will obviously give the general public the wrong idea.
- By making atheism a more coherent group, you may actually proliferate religion: instead of questioning their own beliefs, theists may question atheists' 'beliefs' (now that it is a symbolised system).
- Moreover, by creating an atheist 'sect', you may make people turn to religion as they simply see it as a matter of sides rather than a matter of reason.
- You're turning Dawkins – peace be upon Him – into some kind of political prophet.
- Imagine a load of political atheist activists in a group all wearing this t-shirt, next to the uniformed Scientologists. Don't degrade yourselves; just like evolutionists shouldn't degrade themselves by engaging in public conversation with creationists. Degrading.
- Uniformity and symbolism are the worst aspects of religion and nationalism.

You're creating a visible target rather than disarming the enemy. This approach will fail.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

31. Comment #59469 by gcdavis on July 29, 2007 at 6:52 am

Henri Bergson
Well said
Your first point sums up the issue fo me. The proof will be in the pudding, I cant see Hitchens, Harris, Grayling, Dennet etc sporting the T-shirt, in fact I'll be surprised if RD dons one.

Other Comments by gcdavis

32. Comment #59470 by steve99 on July 29, 2007 at 6:57 am

Theists say atheism is a religion. By making a symbol for atheism you're playing into their hands.

I just can't see this. You can have symbols for the absence or lack of things.

You're creating a visible target rather than disarming the enemy. This approach will fail.

I think you are going to be proved very wrong. I am gay. In the UK, where I live, we have had dramatic success in gaining support and rights. One of the reasons is because many of us decided to become 'visible targets'. That did indeed help disarm the enemy. That being a few 'queers' that most people could ignore, this revealed that almost everyone knew someone who was homosexual. And, we gay men and women were not strange or weird (or rather, no stranger than anyone else). We had a range of lifestyles, a range of political views and so on. It helped to defuse the hatred.

The same could well happen here. Rather that the current stupid labelelling of atheists as immoral by those who assume they don't don't know any will change when they realise how many there are, and who they are.

Other Comments by steve99

33. Comment #59471 by gcdavis on July 29, 2007 at 7:19 am

Steve99
I concede your point that most of us here in the UK have become "comfortable" with the idea of homosexuality and that the gay rights campaign is at least partly responsible for this change in attitude. The difference is that I as an atheist in the UK have never been discriminated against personally, what I object to are the privileges afforded to religion by the state and the threat to our freedom from religious fundamentalism.

What has also helped gay rights are the number of high profile gay people, in entertainment, the media etc. Now if we had more high profile people asserting atheism, we might make more progress. The issue, as Henri Bergson said, is the risk of setting up atheism as a rival creed, by giving it the trappings of faith!

Other Comments by gcdavis

34. Comment #59476 by MrEmpirical on July 29, 2007 at 7:44 am

I as an atheist in the UK have never been discriminated against personally, what I object to are the privileges afforded to religion by the state and the threat to our freedom from religious fundamentalism.

So, religious people receive privileges not afforded to you, and your freedoms are threatened by religious fundamentalism, and yet you do not feel discriminated against for not being part of the privileged, threatening religious set?

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35. Comment #59477 by aoratos philos on July 29, 2007 at 7:45 am

PZ and the rest of the supporters; don't be too hard on the skeptics, after all they are just voicing concerns. I'm sure all of us understand that we aren't under orders of some holy edict to conform and wear. It's just a bit of healthy skepticism to stimulate the question of tactics.

For what it's worth I won't be purchasing a T-shirt.
Atheism is a religious label, as Jonathan Miller put it,Atheism is more of an accusation
I don't care for such labels. After consideration I simply reject the claims of theism. That makes me an atheist by the standards of the religious world-view, so whatever...

Having said that, religion is historically a political issue. I can understand those who choose to wear their "non-belief" on their sleeves as it were.
I share the concern that many theists will see this as a uniform, a way to identify and train their theological guns on the "enemy" so to speak.
I absolutely understand those people who recognise the potential for philosophical sectarianism.

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36. Comment #59479 by Kakashi_monkey on July 29, 2007 at 7:50 am

It's true that to some people, having a unifying symbol for atheism makes it more like a religion. So maybe, instead, this A can represent the collective strengh of atheism. It could be like a badge for all atheists, showing we are one and proud to be so, but the A won't be like the representation of a tight, coherent army.

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37. Comment #59482 by CruciFiction on July 29, 2007 at 7:59 am

"I still have a fondness for my old Negativland T-shirt, which says in great big letters: "Christianity is Stupid. Give Up". That goes down well in the south." ~ Jack Rawlinson

You're not kidding! See what happens when the Brits from 'Top Gear' came over to test "the South".

"Top Gear vs Rednecks":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZLyGqAnRLA

Other Comments by CruciFiction

38. Comment #59483 by prettygoodformonkeys on July 29, 2007 at 8:10 am

The logo is good, and will find other applications. I am glad to see something like this happening, but will wait for the merchandise to evolve for different situations: necklaces to replace crosses (red gold? I would buy that), smaller logos, pins, etc. I like the tattoo idea.

A tasteful necklace the size of the typical Christian cross would stimulate discussion. I've sometimes thought that an "X" on a chain instead of the "t" cross would do something similar.

Reasonably-sized "A" logo, small "theist": I could wear that in my redneck, pinch-brained, resource-extraction town. I welcome most religious confrontation, but a large "A" with no explanation would quickly be re-labeled "Asshole", and there would no longer be any point in wearing it in the face of (what Chomsky calls) the "emotionally charged over-simplification" that stops further thought and discussion. Make a link, don't have to think.

Having said that, we may now finally be on the way to the herding of cats.......

(BTW: the avatar is a painting from 1914 by an art student in Germany, who signed it: A. Hitler)

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39. Comment #59484 by geckoman on July 29, 2007 at 8:14 am

Based on most discussion on here and recent literature, a common trait of atheists (which contrasts us to believers) is that they appear by and large more intelligent than believers.

Normally atheists can be trusted to think carefully about their actions, strategies and the consequences.

This symbol and campaign appear unintelligent for reasons that Bergson and others have listed. Bergson's comment that defining 'sides' or polarising the arguement may push people to religion, seems persuasive. Remember, people fear change. Asking them to chose between 2000 year old religion sanctioned by the establishment and a seemingly new movement based on a few writers and a t-shirt may backfire.

Time will tell, but I fear that some atheists have felt the need to make a statement or do something positive so urgently, that they have not considered all the consequences.

On the positive side, teenagers in particular should like the t-shirt. They may need the security of feeling like they belong, in a manner older atheists don't need. And today's teenagers are after all, tomorrow's atheists.

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40. Comment #59488 by gcdavis on July 29, 2007 at 8:27 am

MrEmpirical
The key word was personally

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41. Comment #59489 by gcdavis on July 29, 2007 at 8:39 am

Beth
Your alarm bells are noted, but the circumstances are so different here, The Vardy college is notorious because of its uniqueness, my guess is with Blair gone the faith school issue will simply fizzle out. The biggest difference of all is money, no one gets rich out of religion here so it is impossible for religion to corrupt the politcal and education system to the extent it has in the US. We do have a problem with home grown jihadists and their supporters and organistions need to be ( and are being)confronted

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42. Comment #59492 by Charlou on July 29, 2007 at 8:46 am

I'm one of the 'nay-sayers' commented on here as my post here: http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=301059#p301059 will attest.

Quote:"The nay-sayers who complain that this is too much like Christianity, it's a uniform, it's Dawkins trying to enforce conformity. How ridiculous. It's a freakin' t-shirt or bumper sticker, not the High Holy Cathedral of the Sacred Letter A. You can wear it or you can skip it. You can use it to wipe the sweat off after a workout. You might wear it to a barbecue at the park. Wear it while you're doing the dishes. It's ;em>casual wear. It's a nice shirt that sends a straightforward message about your willingness to be unafraid, nothing more, with no other deep significance. It will not be part of the dress code."

Afraid? Just what exactly are we atheists who'd rather not wear a symbol accused of being afraid of? Displaying our atheism? Or of wearing your symbol? Smacks of juvenile peer pressure to me. I don't hide my atheism, am open about it, and fear is certainly not the reason I won't be party to the symbolic gesture.
Interesting suggestions about uses for the t-shirt. Just so long as you make the sale, who cares what we do with it, huh?

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43. Comment #59496 by hightrekker on July 29, 2007 at 8:48 am

I agree the "A" will be interpreted as Anarchism here in the Bay Area, with it's political centric view--
I may order one, and wear it at strategic and opportunistic times--
The Left is becoming more superstition and conspiracy bound, and anti science in the process--

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44. Comment #59497 by gcdavis on July 29, 2007 at 9:00 am

I have just re-read P Z Myers comments at the top of this thread, and I am struck by arrogance and condescension that are bordering on the papal:
...brings out the whiners and concern trolls... indeed!
I have always enjoyed his contributions to this site but this time he owes us dissenters an apology.

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45. Comment #59501 by waxwings on July 29, 2007 at 9:12 am

Anarchy is an 'A' encircled. I suppose some morons might mistake the meaning, just as they did when a man was recently hassled by his neighborhood association for flying the U.S. flag upside down, but sooner or later you have to just stop worrying about what incredibly stupid people think. My own feeling is that much of the troubles currently facing the U.S. are directly attributable to pandering to retards.

I really like this design. The metaphor is well thought out and appropriate.

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46. Comment #59503 by hightrekker on July 29, 2007 at 9:16 am

gd---
Come, now, You closet Cabbages for Christ have thicker skins than that----
whiners and trolls might not be a such a bad description-- censorship of opinion only appeals to
ideologues and authoritarians--
Of, course, that is what religion is about--

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47. Comment #59512 by jeepyjay on July 29, 2007 at 9:48 am

Thanks tp PZ for the link, I've put it in the Latest News section on the Leicester Secular Society Diary page:

http://www.leicestersecularsociety.org.uk/diary.htm

I don't mind if the A is taken as meaning "Anarchist". Quite a lot of our members are proud anarchists in the tradition of Peter Kropotkin, who even spoke here at one time.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_archives/kropotkin/mutaidcontents.html

He had ideas about Altruism and evolution long before it became fashionable.

Altruist is another good A.

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48. Comment #59513 by Henri Bergson on July 29, 2007 at 9:53 am

Jeepyjay,

I wouldn't say 'Anarchist' is a good 'A'! It's a self-contradictory idealism.

As mentioned, being called the 'Out Campaign', it is highly likely the general public, and theists, will actually read 'A' for 'Arsehole'.

Consequences, people, consequences...

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49. Comment #59517 by jeepyjay on July 29, 2007 at 10:17 am

You can find naughty words under every letter of the alphabet Henri!

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50. Comment #59518 by heathen2 on July 29, 2007 at 10:20 am

I saw a guy wearing a t-shirt yesterday that said something like "Can you get a better deal than this?" then Jesus in big letters below it. It was annoying to see this broadcasted and I felt myself wishing I had an atheist t-shirt to proclaim my own views at the time.

Somehow this t-shirt design is not appealing to me aesthetically. I think it is fine that others buy and wear it. I like some humor in the message, maybe others are more open to it then.

Sanjay - you have excellent points and good for you for challenging believers. Some of us like to wear statements on clothing and others do not.

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