Monday, August 20, 2007 | Reason : Religion as Child Abuse | print version

Sikh girl will convert for a place at Catholic school

by Paul Sims

Reposted from:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=476449&in_page_id=1770

The parents of a Sikh girl want to convert her to Roman Catholicism to win a place at the school of their choice.

Baljit and Bal Singh say they will change their four-year-old daughter's religion if it means she can attend their favoured school next month.

Maya Kaur has been attending a nursery at St Paul's Roman Catholic School in Wolviston, Cleveland, for the past two years.

But her parents have been told there is no place available for her when she starts full-time education in a few weeks.

After losing an appeal, the couple say they are seriously considering changing her religion in the hope she may be allowed into the school, which gives priority to Catholic children.

Mr Singh said: "We think Sikhism is similar to Roman Catholicism so we put her in that school. She's been there for two years, she goes to church with them, she says a prayer before she eats her dinner.

"I'll baptise her as Roman Catholic so she can go to the school."

St Paul's admissions policy gives priority to children who have been baptised Roman Catholic, have been formally received into the Catholic church and live in the catchment area, or who have a sibling at the school. Priority then goes to other Christian denominations before children of other faiths.

The Singhs' extraordinary proposal is likely to be frowned upon within the Sikh religion, which takes some of its identity from ancestors who were persecuted and martyred for refusing to convert to other faiths.

Among the stories taught within the faith is that of Guru Tegh Bahadur, the ninth of the founding gurus of Sikhism who was beheaded in 1675 by the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb for refusing to convert to Islam.

The Singhs insisted that they were doing nothing wrong in trying to get the best for their daughter.

"Two years ago when they took her into the nursery why didn't they say she wouldn't get a place straight away in the primary school?" said Mr Singh.

"I would have got her baptised then - or I'd have put her in another school."

Maya has been offered a place at William Cassidi School, a nearby Church of England school. But her parents claim she is upset and wants to remain with her friends.

Catherine Connelly, head at St Paul's, said the school had received 34 applications this year, compared to the norm of 24. The class size had also been expanded to the legal limit of 30.

"We are proud of our school's inclusive nature and we have children of several different faiths and ethnic groups," she said.

"We allocated the places according to our published admissions criteria which all parents had access to."

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1. Comment #64433 by PaulJ on August 20, 2007 at 4:43 am

This is standard Catholic Aided School admissions policy - discrimination, not on the basis of the applicant, but of the applicant's parents' professed beliefs.

Other Comments by PaulJ

2. Comment #64434 by Henri Bergson on August 20, 2007 at 4:45 am

Solution: ban faith schools.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

3. Comment #64438 by aleprechaunist on August 20, 2007 at 4:59 am

"We think Sikhism is similar to Roman Catholicism so we put her in that school"

Oh, well that make s sense I guess (chuckles)...

Other Comments by aleprechaunist

4. Comment #64439 by jonecc on August 20, 2007 at 5:08 am

The truly shocking thing is the way that church and state work hand in hand. Because the church pays for a small proportion of the cost of education, they're allowed to run these discriminatory policies.

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5. Comment #64443 by irate_atheist on August 20, 2007 at 5:14 am

Whilst I agree that:

a) Labelling a child with a religious belief
b) Indoctrinating a child with religious belief
c) Faith schools in themselves

are all child abuse, plain and simple, I'm giving a few intellectual and moral brownie points to the parents for their stance in this matter.

The parents are smart and decent enough to NOT let religion get in the way of a good education for their daughter. 'Your dumbass rule says my child has to share your religion to get a good education, OK, she does now. So what are you going to do about it?'

Good on them for playing the silly Catholic buggers (oops, a Freudian slip, perhaps) at their own game.

It may seem wholly unprincipled, but it's a damn sight more intelligent and moral than sticking to a principle and thereby depriving your child of what they need.

Yes they're religious views are wrong, Hindu = Catholic - I'd like to see the Pope square that circle - but they're clearly pragmatists and not wholly dogmatic.

And as for: "The Singhs' extraordinary proposal is likely to be frowned upon within the Sikh religion, which takes some of its identity from ancestors who were persecuted and martyred for refusing to convert to other faiths." Well, one person doesn't have to follow another's stupid example because of 'faith' or tradition. I'm glad these parents aren't bowing to tradition in that respect...

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6. Comment #64445 by steve_kap on August 20, 2007 at 5:23 am

I think the parents have found the solution. Whats a bit of "holy water" and mumbling a few prayers vs. getting the best education under less than ideal circumstances.

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7. Comment #64450 by wendelin on August 20, 2007 at 5:35 am

>>We think Sikhism is similar to Roman Catholicism so we put her in that school.<<

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Since I have nothing intelligent to add, I will note that:
1. I agree 100% with Irate_atheist, and
2. This reasoning is not at all uncommon in India, where I grew up, and where my parents miraculously forgot their Hindu mania when time came for me to go to a Catholic convent school.

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8. Comment #64452 by Prufrock on August 20, 2007 at 5:36 am

The concern for me is the belief that a certain kind of school provides a better standard of education than another. If the Catholic school is superior, and I do not know what criterion is used to decide that this type of school does indeed instruct more effectively, then why are the methods of instruction so different in state schools? I can bet that the parents concerned are not making their decision to convert to Catholicism on anything other than the need to give their child the best possible advantage they can. I contend any parent would want this for their child. A solution may or may not be to ban faith schools, but I would rather ensure the standard of education at all schools are of the same high level. Abuse is not just about indoctrinating people with false ideas, but about creating the divisions which lead to better services being given to those of a preferred faith. I too am appalled at the notion of a child being led to believe that his or her faith somehow entitles them to 'superior' products and services. Maybe faith schools should be banned, but I would rather see faith schools standards replicated if they do indeed lead to better general education for children. Faith schools should be banned if they create assumptions about the level of education relevant to the faith and not to the individual child's needs.

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9. Comment #64454 by juandelaforet on August 20, 2007 at 5:40 am

Am I missing the point here? Not the point about faith schools discriminating against other faiths and the population in general (that's obviously bad). The thing that's getting me is the rather glib way in which they've switched gods. Unless Sikism=Catholicism then *surely* they've offended one of the imaginary sky fairies and are damned to hell? Maybe their new god will fight their old non-educationally-friendly god in some kind of universal death-match to decide.... ;-)

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10. Comment #64456 by Richard Dawkins on August 20, 2007 at 5:53 am

Fascinating test case, fascinating precedent to be set. Of course it is absurd to talk of 'changing her religion' when she's only four. But no more absurd than to talk of her having a particular religion in the first place. The precedent that might be set is that all children might be asked to decide their own religion, rather than simply follow their parents, when looking over the available schools. And this would again bring home the absurdity of a four-year-old child having a religion at all.

Like others here, I sympathize with the parents. They are treating their 'own' religion and the religion of the desired school with the contempt that both deserve.

Richard

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11. Comment #64457 by PaulJ on August 20, 2007 at 6:01 am

There was a TV drama in the UK not so long ago (called "Perfect Parents" I think - there's a thread in the forums about it) that had an atheist couple faking Catholicism in order to get their daughter into such a school.

The daughter was a willing participant in the deception (she had a book called "Catholicism for Dummies" by her bedside, if memory serves).

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12. Comment #64459 by heathen2 on August 20, 2007 at 6:04 am

The title of this article should have been "Sikh girl will be converted by her parents for a place at Catholic school". Not enough room for that I suppose.

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13. Comment #64460 by Richard Morgan on August 20, 2007 at 6:04 am

I consider myself to be a person of high principles. I venerate truth, reason and beauty above all things. How loathsomely hypocritical and downright dishonest to trade one's principles for something as paltry as your child's education!
As for me and my house, if I was offered £1,000,000 to convert to Mormonism, I would not hesitate for one second : "Show me to the swimming pool, brothers, I just got that burning in the bosom feeling!"
(lol)

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14. Comment #64464 by MartinSGill on August 20, 2007 at 6:41 am

This issue again highlights just how divisive faith schools are to a community and by extension to this country. This four year old, who has no notion of what a god or religion even is, will either lose her friends because she is not officially of their religion and hence will be rejected by the new school, or will have a different label forced upon her so that she can keep her friends. This change of label though may well ostracise her in her local community because her parents, and by extension she herself, have turned traitor to their "faith".

This girl reminds me of a piece of beef during the BSE crisis. If it has the wrong label no one will touch it.

I cannot believe that I am being forced to pay for this nonsense with my taxes.

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15. Comment #64465 by SteveN on August 20, 2007 at 6:48 am

I also agree with irate_atheist and with Richard Morgan. If the only way for your child to get a good education is to pay lip-service to a load of mumbo-jumbo, then I'd go for it. I would of course make sure that my child was fully aware of the bullshit aspects of the religion while reaping the benifits of the otherwise good education.

By the way, I'd convert to Mormonism for a lot less than a million quid! Hmmm... maybe I could sell my soul to the highest bidder on Ebay.

Note added in edit: Of course, I would prefer to see all faith schools abolished and a higher quality of education all-round

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16. Comment #64467 by notsobad on August 20, 2007 at 6:51 am

One of the pathetic things here is that they want to leave her there because she wants and has friends there.
That's lame parenting.

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17. Comment #64468 by kaiserkriss on August 20, 2007 at 6:53 am

Is this not discrimination on the grounds (freedom) of religion?? The child is being denied admittance into the school because she and her parents are NOT catholic.

This is something that has always flabbergasted me, how come religious institutions may discriminate on the grounds of their religion against others, yet when they perceive being discriminated against, they call foul immediately. jcw

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18. Comment #64473 by Prufrock on August 20, 2007 at 7:22 am

Why does Philip Larkin's "This Be The Verse" keep popping into my head, you know the one that starts "They **** you up,your mum and dad. They may not mean to but they do". Opportunistic Faith hopping does pop a question into my head: How seriously does the average person actually take religion? Who knows, publicising things like this will help reduce faith's status and we can start the serious business of ensuring kids are treated properly and with respect. Professor Dawkins, I do take the point about children as young as four being abused into beliefs they don't understand, it's just you made that point far more eloquently than I ever could in your writings. My niece is currently at a faith based school, because it is the best in the area. I understand how difficult that decision can be to make.

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19. Comment #64474 by Lionel A on August 20, 2007 at 7:27 am

12. Comment #64457 by PaulJ on August 20
There was a TV drama in the UK not so long ago (called "Perfect Parents" I think - there's a thread in the forums about it) that had an atheist couple faking Catholicism in order to get their daughter into such a school.

Yes, I saw that and as I recall things did not turn out well did they.

Here is a link to some info:

http://www.britfilms.com/britishfilms/catalogue/browse/?id=50A8E20D1b07227CD2WjT2AD116F

Other Comments by Lionel A

20. Comment #64481 by I'mNotAlone on August 20, 2007 at 7:49 am

I'm with Notsobad on this one. If the only reason they want her to go to this school is because "she is upset and wants to remain with her friends" then that is weak parenting.
Given that she is only 4 and has only known her 'friends' for two years, then she'll get over it quickly and make new friends.
And anyway, what happens if her best friend then goes on to a 'protestant' secondary school? Will she change again??

However, I would love this to become a widespread trend. Imagine loads of parents changing their kids religions purely to get in a particular school! Wouldnt that just expose the whole flipping hypocrisy of it all!!

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21. Comment #64483 by hungarianelephant on August 20, 2007 at 8:09 am

SteveN (16) - Someone has already tried to sell their soul on eBay. eBay pulled the listing on the basis that if the soul doesn't exist, it violates their policy that you must have the legal ability to sell the item; whereas if it does exist, it must be part of the human body and constitutes a prohibited item.

A lawyer's solution.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

22. Comment #64487 by Johnny O on August 20, 2007 at 8:45 am

I wonder what Darwin2, Wee_Flea et al, have to say on this subject? Where is the Religious response to this disgusting course of action? What does the good book say about discriminating against children of other faiths? I realise the Old Testament would probably tell you to stone her, what about The New?

Come on guys... WWJD?

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23. Comment #64496 by GBile on August 20, 2007 at 9:24 am

24. Comment #64498 by fonex_86 on August 20, 2007 at 9:34 am

Come on guys... WWJD?

Cast the demon out of her?

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25. Comment #64503 by Dr Benway on August 20, 2007 at 9:47 am

If the only reason they want her to go to this school is because "she is upset and wants to remain with her friends" then that is weak parenting.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

Attachment bonds provide the environment for ethical and cognitive development. There's an ample literature illustrating how disruptions of important relationships early in life correlate with mental disorders later, including conduct problems, depression, and anxiety disorders.

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26. Comment #64509 by tieInterceptor on August 20, 2007 at 10:18 am

there is an episode of 'Malcolm in the Middle' called 'daycare' where the family pretends to be catholic and sends the kids to bible class to get free daycare for their baby.
Reese gets brainwashed and flies away on a chair strapped with helium balloons to meet god.

great episode,

life imitates art.

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27. Comment #64512 by heathen2 on August 20, 2007 at 10:50 am

If the only reason they want her to go to this school is because "she is upset and wants to remain with her friends" then that is weak parenting.

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

Sorry Dr. B, but I agree with I'mNotAlone and Notsobad. Children are resilient and able to form attachments to new friends relatively easily. Also, as long as she has a secure attachment to her caregivers, that is most significant.

There is no reason she cannot still keep her friendships even if she moves to a new school. The parents must have considered other schools where they would have enrolled her if she was denied at the Catholic school in the first place. They should send her to one of those schools.

I do however like the fact that they are creating a fuss about this and that there is an article about it. To echo others, it never hurts to spotlight the glaring idiocy of religion.

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28. Comment #64513 by goldmineguttd on August 20, 2007 at 11:09 am

Schooling should be the same for every child and should be done in one type of school, so that the children sit next to each other and learn and play together. If parents want their children to learn about bowling a yorker, or playing the flute, or religion, they may arrange something outside the school.

Is this too idealistic to contemplate ?

The very idea of these faith schools is pretty foreign to me. In America, besides some Catholic schools, we throw everyone together with no regard for religion.

Then again I live in Vermont; I'm sure there's more fuckwittery down south.

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29. Comment #64515 by Dr Benway on August 20, 2007 at 11:10 am

Caregiver, friendship, and community attachments are all important. I agree that caregiver attachment is most important.

I'm arguing that all things being equal, we ought to respect a child's bonds of love and attachment. These things aren't trivial. Friendships mean as much to kids as they do to adults.

Certainly other concerns may outweigh the value of the attachment. For this family, religion isn't one of those concerns. I don't fault them for that.

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30. Comment #64518 by stereoroid on August 20, 2007 at 11:27 am

I live in Ireland, and when I saw this headline pop up in Bloglines, I thought this would be an Irish case. It's more expected in a country where the Catholics run 98% of all schools (I read somewhere). For this to happen in England is doubly enervating...

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31. Comment #64519 by SteveN on August 20, 2007 at 11:47 am

SteveN (16) - Someone has already tried to sell their soul on eBay. eBay pulled the listing on the basis that if the soul doesn't exist, it violates their policy that you must have the legal ability to sell the item; whereas if it does exist, it must be part of the human body and constitutes a prohibited item.

A lawyer's solution.

D'Oh!! I hate lawyers!

Other Comments by SteveN

32. Comment #64527 by notsobad on August 20, 2007 at 1:26 pm

I'm arguing that all things being equal, we ought to respect a child's bonds of love and attachment.

You strongly overestimate this at that age. She will make new friends easily and still can meet the old ones.
The parents are just backing up and spoiling the child, which is far too common today.
Children should face the reality of life, which includes changes.

Anyway, Thor is laughing at this petty trade of false idols.

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33. Comment #64558 by Nails on August 20, 2007 at 5:20 pm

If I was in their shoes, I would do exactly the same. A child's education, health and happiness are the most important things and as a parent you should do everything your power to safefuard these - anything else realy would basically be child abuse.
Yes, children will adapt and make new friends, but why should they?
This is a damning conclusion to the faith school circus and only further evidence that they should be scrapped. if everyone changed their religion to suit then why bother having one in the first place?
The sooner we get atheist schools the better, wonder how many would drop their religion to get their kids in.

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34. Comment #64577 by ? on August 20, 2007 at 7:01 pm

I just hope her new "Catholic" status doesn't earn her a stigma within the Sikh community (which she will probably have to deal with her whole life in one way or another).

And how far will the whole thing have to go to satisfy the Catholics? Will she actually have to practice the religion, be confirmed, etc?

By the time she's 14 or so, will she be firmly convinced that at a young age, thanks to the guidance of her wondeful Catholic teachers, she saw the error of her parent's ways and boldly chose to follow Christ?

The whole business shows how arbitrary religious classifications are. It reminds me of the movie Deconstructing Harry where Harry (Woody Allen) is arguing with his untra-Orthodox sister and she's saying things like "I'm a Jew, that's who I am" and he comes back with "If our parents had converted just before we were born we'd be Catholics." Life is sometimes stranger than fiction...."if our parents had had us baptized to get us into a good school..."

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35. Comment #64594 by Johnny O on August 21, 2007 at 12:34 am

One of the pathetic things here is that they want to leave her there because she wants and has friends there.
That's lame parenting.

Got to agree with you there . My wife and I told our son he wouldn't be going to the same secondary school, (ages 11-16 for those not familiar with the British school system), as his friends because the exam results from there were terrible and he was cleverer than that. He was a bit upset, but did pick a private boarding school, where he has been going for the last 5 years. He is about to start the sixth form where he is taking several 'A' level science classes and hopes to go on to University to study engineering. He freely admits that it was the best thing that could have happened to him.

What about his friends I hear you all ask. Well, they mostly sit on a wall outside a chip shop and drink cider from a plastic bottle. But what does that prove eh??

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36. Comment #64602 by Nefrubyr on August 21, 2007 at 1:46 am

35. Comment #64577 by ?

I just hope her new "Catholic" status doesn't earn her a stigma withing the Sikh community (which she will probably have to deal with her whole life in one way or another).

I don't see that as a great disaster. Who needs a community that would stigmatise them based on the actions of their parents? Should she care about the "Sikh community" just because she was "born Sikh"?

What I'm saying is, assuming this girl should have any ties with the Sikh community isn't so different from assuming she's a Sikh in the first place. Let her find her own community which will not judge her for a meaningless religious declaration by someone else.

Come to think of it, sending her to a school with no other (children labelled) Sikhs is an excellent first step.

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37. Comment #64608 by epeeist on August 21, 2007 at 2:03 am

State schools in the UK (100% funded) are AFAIK prohibited from selecting in any manner except for catchment area.

Here we have a school which will have up to 90% funding by the state but is operating a selection policy. This should have been changed, but the then education secretary backed down when the Catholic church complained. According to http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20061103/ai_n16824426 this was due to behind the scenes pressure by the Blairs (Tony and Cherie) and Ruth Kelly.

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38. Comment #64618 by ? on August 21, 2007 at 2:58 am

message 64602 by Nefrubyr
"Should she care about the 'Sikh community' just because she was 'born Sikh.'

I understand what your're saying. I didn't mean to imply anything like that. I just meant on a practical level, I wouldn't want her growing up taking a bunch of crap for an idenetity imposed on her by the parents' decision. Actually TWO imposed identities--the original one and then the second one.

As someone who chose to change my mind about religion (both converting to another religion and then rejecting religion as such) as an adult, I understand how being thought of as a "heretic" can feel. But adults are free to negotiate their own identity and choose their associations; children are often not.

However, I think you raised a great point about the potentially liberating effets of this. Being exposed to a second religion can have a very mind-expanding effect because then its harder to see the original teachings as unquestionable assumptions about reality (or the only possible community).

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39. Comment #64632 by rabbitpirate on August 21, 2007 at 4:18 am

It seems this is the week for amusing religious news stories. I take it you have all seen the one about China banning reincarnation. I laughed so hard my sides hurt.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20227400/site/newsweek/

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40. Comment #64643 by Nefrubyr on August 21, 2007 at 5:35 am

39. Comment #64618 by ?

I understand what your're saying. I didn't mean to imply anything like that. I just meant on a practical level, I wouldn't want her growing up taking a bunch of crap for an idenetity imposed on her by the parents' decision.

I do agree with you, on a practical level. But I do tend to harp on about how things should be, in an ideal world...

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41. Comment #113212 by Sunnysgrewal on January 19, 2008 at 12:16 am

I am an athiest, but was raised in a sikh family. My parents dont care im athiest and hell I even think they dont believe in God. However, I know my history, and I know that sikhism is in no frikn way compatible in catholicism. One of the pillars of sikhism is respect for all individuals and and all religions....we all know catholicisms views on non catholics.

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