1. Comment #65275 by ccrenshaw on August 23, 2007 at 12:45 pm

Well that's what religion was invented for in the first place....population control

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2. Comment #65276 by BicycleRepairMan on August 23, 2007 at 12:51 pm

The successful meme strikes again, religion poisons everything, everywhere, at all times. it will use any opportunity to infect its victims, and thus secure its own memetic life. It has always disgusted me how it exploits the vulnerability of the desperate, the grieving and the ignorant. All clergy should be locked up under martial law, because they, like all criminals, have the potential to do even more damage than usual.

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3. Comment #65282 by Rtambree on August 23, 2007 at 1:03 pm

Another example of the government being afraid of its own population. If only the people would realise...

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4. Comment #65287 by scooternyc on August 23, 2007 at 1:20 pm

god tried to drown the lot of those people and cleanse the U.S. of this tripe but they keep coming back like cockroaches after nuclear war.

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5. Comment #65292 by goldmineguttd on August 23, 2007 at 1:41 pm

Uh, the source is Prison Planet. In the interest of free inquiry I'll look into it, but I'm 99% sure, considering the source, that it's a crazy conspiracy theory that got picked up by one local network.

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6. Comment #65296 by Yorker on August 23, 2007 at 2:00 pm

3. Comment #65282 by Rtambree

"Another example of the government being afraid of its own population"

Indeed. This immediately brought to mind Chomsky's words following 9/11. He predicted that governments would use it to further control and subjugate its citizens in the name of security. Everything he said is happening, in the USA and the UK, I just didn't expect it to happen so fast.

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7. Comment #65303 by 82abhilash on August 23, 2007 at 2:19 pm

This could be a good idea, in Iraq. The secular, democratic government,there creates a new core of clergy that will toe the government line - a clergy with Sunni and Shite religious leaders.

And whenever there is religious strife, they go about preaching peace, love and brotherhood 'in the name of Allah.'

They become popular among people, take control of the mosques. Hate stops spreading, peace starts to propagate.

The original misunderstanding in the Quran gets replaced by a watered down version which eventually fades into nothingness. How about that?

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8. Comment #65326 by roach on August 23, 2007 at 3:47 pm

82abhilash,

Your scenario is a pleasant fiction but I don't think it would work. Who would give the new core of clergy legitimacy? The secular government? I doubt that would work. Ideally, the chage will happen organically. Moderate muslims like Reza Aslan and homegrown moderates will have to redefine the religion. The problem with these holy books is that they are bursting with violent and divisive nonsense. The people who are advocating jihad and "death to the infidel" are on firm ground according to the Quran.

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9. Comment #65339 by mmurray on August 23, 2007 at 5:15 pm

In one video game (Age of Empires I think) you can use priests to convert the opposition troops to your side. So my kids and their friends started to use a a new verb `to priest'

Michael

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10. Comment #65344 by 82abhilash on August 23, 2007 at 5:37 pm

roach
It has already happening, in places like Qatar and the United Arab Emirates. That is why we have less trouble from there. The governments are not democratic, but they are pro-western, which is as good as it gets for now. It even happend in England a long time ago, although, there where other complications as well.

About legitimacy, who gives any clergy legitimacy, the people ofcourse, their faith in those teachings.

People will gladly do what they are normally inclined to do, if it is religious sanctioned. They will be reluctant at first, but if enough important people agree, they will follow, especially if they think, 'everybody else is doing it.'

People will be proud to do what they donot normally do if it is relgiously required.

I think the former produces a less toxic version does it not? That seems more practical in the short run.

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11. Comment #65352 by roach on August 23, 2007 at 6:47 pm

82abhilash,

Unless the UAE has become pro-western by creating a new clergy core that toes the government line, preaches peace, love, and brotherhood "in the name of Allah", and through the other happy fantasies expressed in your first post, bringing up the UAE and Qatar is irrelevant to your hypothesis. It does not offer an example for us to examine.

Also, the people can just bypass the government's clergy and support their own radical clerics.

You said: "People will gladly do what they are normally inclined to do, if it is religious sanctioned." There are two problems with this reasoning. First, religion is entirely unnecessary under this assumption. Second, people are "normally inclined to do" plenty of horrible acts and they are often religiously sanctioned.

You seem to think that humans are generally good or altruistic. I disagree. I think humans are generally selfish.

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12. Comment #65363 by 82abhilash on August 23, 2007 at 10:15 pm

roach

I think the majority people in those countries, are at a cross road - they want to live a normal life, but want to remain true to their faith and consequently will embrace any 'scholar' who can show them the two are compatible.

The Government of UAE and especially Dubai are highly pro-western in their outlook, in the case of Dubai, even the citizenry are more pro-western, compared to their counterparts in say Saudi Arabia, but in Dubai there are even Saudis who are pro-reform. But UAE and Qatar are just two examples in the Middle East where this strategy has been applied - there is Oman, Kuwait and Bahrain as well.

It is difficult for someone brought up in a liberal democracy to understand what it is like to live in a country without religious freedom - these people have never known anything else. I myself have lived in the UAE for 10 years. In the countries I have mentioned above, foreigners have limited religious freedom and the locals have none.

Everyone practices religion in the form that is sanctioned by the state, otherwise they go to prison for blasphemy. The local people are not given the opportunity to spread their toxic faith in any way they like.

And since the governments there are pro-western and progressive, they propagate a brand that is less toxic than the original interpretation, whenever possible in forms that is neutral or admissive of new ideas. They do not give people a free hand in religion, because if they do, the original toxin will spread, through the original interpretations.

In a side note when Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviet Union, they released from their prisons, all their radicals to fight the Russians, hoping to solve two problems at once. - communism and fanaticism. Did not work as well as they had hoped.

Now it may seem ironic to you that religion oppression is used in this manner to end religious tyranny, but that is exactly what is happening. There is no room within Islam to reform itself. In fact, Islam in its original form will violently put away anyone who suggests it to change itself - it is called the seamless garment.

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13. Comment #65366 by roach on August 23, 2007 at 10:56 pm

82abhilash,

Wow. That's all very interesting and depressing. Thanks for your reply. I may ask you to educate me a little more about life in the UAE later.

Cheers

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14. Comment #65373 by Ole on August 24, 2007 at 12:24 am

When Constantine chose Christendom as the state religion it was of course based on what Paul wrote. Romans 13 etc.

Ole

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15. Comment #65385 by Conscious Replicator on August 24, 2007 at 2:01 am

Extremely frightening this is. When you connect things from articles of "The Christian Embassy" functioning "almost" freely inside the pentagon, evangelism infiltration to USA army "The Operation Straight Up",

(http://richarddawkins.net/article,1563,Not-So-Fast-Christian-Soldiers,Michael-L-Weinstein-and-Reza-Aslan-LA-Times)

current and future state of economy in USA,

(http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aP7BZw9X19P8&refer=home)

sayings of senior official from Reagan's goverment

(http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/218140/Regan_Official_Warns_Public_White_House_Planning_New_September_11)

and now this comes to my knowledge.

I was playing mind games with idea that is it a theoretical possibility to within a couple of years (or less) to sec.fundies to take control of most of the critical elements wich are needed to run nation, with the help of recession (or/)and some man made "catastrophe"?

OR alternatively I have to reduce my bud portions (most probable of these two "will going to happen..." :D).

But seriously,
I would like to know is these just sensation seeking news/articles with no credibility and/or exaggerated truth? Is there a feeling among the normal (not deluded) citizen of USA that something fishy is going on?

Ok, now I sound even more paranoid...

[p.s. my fist post here, and maybe in future I have something intresting to say, not these nutty theories... ;) ]

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16. Comment #65407 by Yorker on August 24, 2007 at 5:09 am

11. Comment #65352 by roach

"I think humans are generally selfish."

Couldn't agree more, just look around; that's why there are "haves" and "have nots"!

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17. Comment #65431 by Vaal on August 24, 2007 at 6:41 am

Clergy is too respectful a term. They should be recognised for what they actually are, witch doctors or shamans.

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18. Comment #65483 by prettygoodformonkeys on August 24, 2007 at 12:56 pm

Things work better when the government is afraid of US.

We always have to step up, because it's ours, not theirs.

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19. Comment #65535 by HappyPrimate on August 24, 2007 at 4:15 pm

As a Washington Journal, C-Span TV watcher there was a lively public discussion about the Executive Order Bush signed a couple of months ago saying that if some catastrophe should happen here that he could declare martial law and that his declaration of complete martial law would negate any authority the individual state governments have. Governors would be powerless.

That would indeed make him a whole and complete dictator. The miliary has been Xianized and would follow him blindly. So this news story seems to fit nicely in that scheme. Question is - is he planning on executing some sort of plan to stay in power? Guess we will find out in 2008 or sooner.

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20. Comment #65772 by mspatriot9 on August 26, 2007 at 12:56 pm

I'm ashamed and embarrassed to be from Shreveport. I was listening to the Moon Griffon show on the radio yesterday morning where this story was discussed and at least from the call-ins, people were mortified, disgusted, but pleasantly refreshingly, not about to put up with it...the "when it happens" scenario had many voicing their intent to refuse to tolerate it.

I rarely watch local news anymore so the video I just now saw. The religious nuts around here are a plenty. I'm one for the refusal to cater to them and the readiness to just "intolerate" them right back. Enough is enough already. It's dangerous now...it's time to ignore and dismiss political correctness for a straight up, no holds barred, refusal to put up with it. Run THEM out of town.

On behalf of the sane people here in Shreveport (myself and about 12 others) I heartily apologize that our state is incapable of making it to the 21st century and insists on regressing back to such times. If anybody bombs us to wipe out the ignorant stupidity gene, I can't say I'd blame them. We totally deserve it.

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21. Comment #67200 by RobertlewisIR on September 2, 2007 at 4:15 pm

Well, now I'm depressed all over again. My two greatest fears: excess government and excess religion.

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22. Comment #115817 by salgiambruno on January 24, 2008 at 9:11 pm

That's just what we need, guidance from corrupt swindlers and child molesters and the wisdom from an ancient text, to ensure that we behave rationally.

Speaking for some of us, this is absolutely not necessary. On the other hand, we would have a lot of religious types to maintain in a state of sedation, and what better way to accomplish that than with the proven mind-control techniques practiced by organized religion!

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