Print
Only secular schools will overcome sectarianism
by Robin McKie
Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2156652,00.html
There is an old Glasgow story about a Rangers fan who blunders into the wrong end of an Old Firm match. He is rumbled by three Celtic fans who threaten to expose him unless he fetches their Bovrils. He agrees but has to leave behind a shoe to guarantee his return. On re-appearing with the drinks, the poor bluenose finds a lump of excrement has been put in his footwear. Limping home later, he is confronted by a BBC reporter who is interviewing fans to ask if they think the city's sectarianism might end soon. 'Nae chance,' says the fan. 'Not while they keep crapping in our shoes, and we keep peeing in their Bovril.'
Now the joke is not new, I admit, but the link between bigotry and bodily functions came irresistibly to mind during a recent visit to Ibrox. During the Champions League qualifier against the Montenegro team FC Zeta, the crowd was in fine, affable form - until half-time. Then a small throng gathered in the toilets in the Copeland Road stand for an illegal public smoke and a sectarian sing-song. Puffing away, the group - no more than two or three dozen youths - went through a number of Protestant oldies, returning to 'The Billy Boys' with its banned references to Fenian blood spillage.
After this, two choristers became particularly inflamed and, back in the stand, began howling more sectarian abuse. A middle-aged man with his daughter walked out to escape the barrage. Several members of the crowd then turned on the choral pair who, after receiving 10 minutes of sustained invective and threat, left the stadium.
Now the incident was unpleasant but it was not without hopeful aspects. If nothing else it indicates the Ibrox faithful is now well aware it needs to clean up its act and is prepared to do so fairly forcibly. More importantly, if sectarian singers feel they have to hide in toilets, along with illicit smokers, to avoid detection, it shows both habits - once the hallmark of the Glasgow 'hard-man' - are being marginalised to a degree that would have seemed impossible 10 years ago. So yes, I could see encouraging signs, though only a few.
The trouble is that smoking and bigotry are two very different evils: the first is a cause of misery, the second just a symptom. Banning tobacco will undoubtedly save lives but outlawing sectarian songs, from Celtic or Rangers fans, will not deal with the fundamental reason for the embittered divide between Scotland's Protestants and Catholics.
The real cause is not surprising, of course. Any nation that partitions its population at youth and teaches young people at schools for Catholics or at schools for Protestants is bound to end up with sectarian problems. The impact on that country's psyche is destined to be corrosive, a point stressed by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion. 'The troubles of Northern Ireland would disappear in a generation if segregated schools were abolished,' he says.
And what is true for Ulster is true for Scotland. The two countries are bedevilled by sectarianism and also support almost identical policies that separate Catholic child from Protestant offspring at school. Each sustains a 'wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness', as Dawkins puts it. Or as Christopher Hitchens states in God is not Great: 'In the name of God, old hatreds were drilled into new generations of schoolchildren and are still being drilled.' Hence chants about 'Fenians' and 'proddy scum' at Old Firm matches.
Scotland's previous Labour administration made much of its intent 'to kick sectarianism into the dustbin of history' and claimed it was its priority enemy. Thus ministers became tough on sectarianism. Sadly, never once did they get tough with the causes of sectarianism. To do that, of course, they would have had to address the problem of Scotland's denominational schools, a vote loser if ever there was one. No church will give up the chance to influence young minds without a bitter fight. So politicians concentrated instead on the songs and the chants. And, yes, they have had success but it will remain a limited one until Scottish people enjoy a proper, secular education.
And that, of course, is an unlikely prospect - not just for Scotland but for the rest of Britain. During Blair's term as Prime Minister, the building of faith schools was encouraged across the UK. Far from realising the dangers of segregated education, the construction of schools specially for Muslims or fundamentalist Christians or orthodox Jews has been embraced enthusiastically. Thus Britain seems bent on repeating Scotland's errors - not avoiding them. As Scotland struggles to evade its sectarian past, the rest of the country seems bent on repeating it. Of course Gordon Brown may halt the practice but it will still take time to undo the damage. Our secular future remains some way off. The taste of Bovril is not going to improve overnight.
robin.mckie@observer.co.uk
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2156652,00.html
There is an old Glasgow story about a Rangers fan who blunders into the wrong end of an Old Firm match. He is rumbled by three Celtic fans who threaten to expose him unless he fetches their Bovrils. He agrees but has to leave behind a shoe to guarantee his return. On re-appearing with the drinks, the poor bluenose finds a lump of excrement has been put in his footwear. Limping home later, he is confronted by a BBC reporter who is interviewing fans to ask if they think the city's sectarianism might end soon. 'Nae chance,' says the fan. 'Not while they keep crapping in our shoes, and we keep peeing in their Bovril.'
Now the joke is not new, I admit, but the link between bigotry and bodily functions came irresistibly to mind during a recent visit to Ibrox. During the Champions League qualifier against the Montenegro team FC Zeta, the crowd was in fine, affable form - until half-time. Then a small throng gathered in the toilets in the Copeland Road stand for an illegal public smoke and a sectarian sing-song. Puffing away, the group - no more than two or three dozen youths - went through a number of Protestant oldies, returning to 'The Billy Boys' with its banned references to Fenian blood spillage.
After this, two choristers became particularly inflamed and, back in the stand, began howling more sectarian abuse. A middle-aged man with his daughter walked out to escape the barrage. Several members of the crowd then turned on the choral pair who, after receiving 10 minutes of sustained invective and threat, left the stadium.
Now the incident was unpleasant but it was not without hopeful aspects. If nothing else it indicates the Ibrox faithful is now well aware it needs to clean up its act and is prepared to do so fairly forcibly. More importantly, if sectarian singers feel they have to hide in toilets, along with illicit smokers, to avoid detection, it shows both habits - once the hallmark of the Glasgow 'hard-man' - are being marginalised to a degree that would have seemed impossible 10 years ago. So yes, I could see encouraging signs, though only a few.
The trouble is that smoking and bigotry are two very different evils: the first is a cause of misery, the second just a symptom. Banning tobacco will undoubtedly save lives but outlawing sectarian songs, from Celtic or Rangers fans, will not deal with the fundamental reason for the embittered divide between Scotland's Protestants and Catholics.
The real cause is not surprising, of course. Any nation that partitions its population at youth and teaches young people at schools for Catholics or at schools for Protestants is bound to end up with sectarian problems. The impact on that country's psyche is destined to be corrosive, a point stressed by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion. 'The troubles of Northern Ireland would disappear in a generation if segregated schools were abolished,' he says.
And what is true for Ulster is true for Scotland. The two countries are bedevilled by sectarianism and also support almost identical policies that separate Catholic child from Protestant offspring at school. Each sustains a 'wanton and carefully nurtured divisiveness', as Dawkins puts it. Or as Christopher Hitchens states in God is not Great: 'In the name of God, old hatreds were drilled into new generations of schoolchildren and are still being drilled.' Hence chants about 'Fenians' and 'proddy scum' at Old Firm matches.
Scotland's previous Labour administration made much of its intent 'to kick sectarianism into the dustbin of history' and claimed it was its priority enemy. Thus ministers became tough on sectarianism. Sadly, never once did they get tough with the causes of sectarianism. To do that, of course, they would have had to address the problem of Scotland's denominational schools, a vote loser if ever there was one. No church will give up the chance to influence young minds without a bitter fight. So politicians concentrated instead on the songs and the chants. And, yes, they have had success but it will remain a limited one until Scottish people enjoy a proper, secular education.
And that, of course, is an unlikely prospect - not just for Scotland but for the rest of Britain. During Blair's term as Prime Minister, the building of faith schools was encouraged across the UK. Far from realising the dangers of segregated education, the construction of schools specially for Muslims or fundamentalist Christians or orthodox Jews has been embraced enthusiastically. Thus Britain seems bent on repeating Scotland's errors - not avoiding them. As Scotland struggles to evade its sectarian past, the rest of the country seems bent on repeating it. Of course Gordon Brown may halt the practice but it will still take time to undo the damage. Our secular future remains some way off. The taste of Bovril is not going to improve overnight.
robin.mckie@observer.co.uk
Add to del.icio.us
Posted: Saturday, August 25, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 46 of 46 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #65714 by mummymonkey on August 26, 2007 at 12:55 am
Living in Scotland I'm not aware of this "embittered divide" which seems to be visible only to journalists, bishops and politicians looking for votes. Protestants, catholics and godless heathens such as myself get along just fine thank you.And it's Copland not Copeland.
Other Comments by mummymonkey
3. Comment #65715 by epeeist on August 26, 2007 at 1:00 am
While it might be difficult to get rid of faith schools in the short term, you could effectively neuter them. The large majority of these schools receive most of their funding from the state. Initially you could make it a condition of receiving funding that they did not discriminate on religious grounds for admission to the school. You could reduce the funding for children who are of the same faith as the school and increase it for those of different or no faiths.The only problem this leaves is those schools schools whose funding comes from other sources, such as Saudi Arabia. The only way I can think of to tackle these is to insist that they follow the national curriculum (irrespective of the gender of the pupils).
Other Comments by epeeist
4. Comment #65721 by Corylus on August 26, 2007 at 3:04 am
Under the "headlines" section of the front page of this site is the link to the petition to abolish faith schools in the UK.You can sign if you are a UK citizen.
Other Comments by Corylus
5. Comment #65722 by Student Grant on August 26, 2007 at 3:16 am
I've lived in both Scotland and Northern Ireland and there is a major difference in levels of sectarianism between the two countries. If you want to be certain of seeing sectarian bigotry in Scotland, you have to seek it out (at Rangers/Celtic matches, sectarian parades, etc). As mummymonkey says, most of the time it is invisible. In Northern Ireland it is omnipresent and infects every aspect of society. The root cause is the complete control that religions have over children's education here. In Scotland, I found that although sectarianism existed, it was less endemic and crucially, much less tolerated by society in general. In NI it is actively encouraged by the main political parties. Sinn Fein and the DUP are well aware that their votes depend on division. If education were secular, support for both parties would suffer. I don't expect to see an end to educational apartheid here soon. To UK readers of this, I would remind you that your hard-earned tax money (which should have been spent on education) is funding the promotion of religious intolerance in Northern Ireland, Scotland and, with Blair's promotion of faith schools, in England and Wales as well now. You may feel annoyed enough about this to contact your MP and sign the petition mentioned by Corylus.
Other Comments by Student Grant
6. Comment #65724 by Flagellant on August 26, 2007 at 3:43 am
I signed the 'Scrap faith schools' petition earlier this year. I received a reply referring me to this statement: The Government remains committed to a diverse range of schools for parents to choose from, including schools with a religious character or "faith schools" as they are commonly known.Two comments:
Religious Education (RE) in all schools, including faith schools, is aimed at developing pupils' knowledge, understanding and awareness of the major religions represented in the country. It encourages respect for those holding different beliefs and helps promote pupils' moral, cultural and mental development. In partnership with national faith and belief organisations we have introduced a national framework for RE. In February 2006, the faith communities affirmed their support for the framework in a joint statement making it clear that all children should be given the opportunity to receive inclusive RE, and that they are committed to making sure the framework is used in the development of RE in all their schools and colleges.
The Churches have a long history of providing education in this country and have confirmed their commitment to community cohesion. Faith schools have an excellent record in providing high-quality education and serving disadvantaged communities and are some of the most ethnically and socially diverse in the country. Many parents who are not members of a particular faith value the structured environment provided by schools with a religious character.
1. I fear that new petitioners will receive the same ghastly answer and
2. Short-sighted, weaselly government bastards! Bastards! Bastards!
Religion – an activity for consenting adults in private.
Other Comments by Flagellant
7. Comment #65726 by IanRobinson on August 26, 2007 at 5:08 am
Re: Comment 5 from student grantI went to a standard comprehensive school in the suburbs of East Belfast in the 1970's and early 1980's. It was not a "Protestant" school. Anyone could attend from the catchment area. There were very few Roman Catholics attending (it had about 1300 pupils in total). The reason for this was that there were Roman Catholic schools that bused the children of parents of that religion out of the area. I would say that there were (indeed are) state schools and then there are religious schools (mainly Roman Catholic) in NI. We need to abolish the religious schools and make them all state schools with no influence from any churches at all.
Other Comments by IanRobinson
8. Comment #65730 by Yorker on August 26, 2007 at 7:15 am
McKie was writing mostly about the west of Scotland, his remarks are not nearly as applicable to the east. Where I was raised, sectarianism was unheard of, the area was overwhelmingly protestant and at school the very few catholic children were excused the protestant RI periods. Until I had the misfortune to attend a football match at Parkhead as a young man, I was unaware of how the religious nonsense had such an effect on people. My abiding memory of that event though, is not a religious one. In the old days boozing during the match was the norm and there were no seats, I remember having to bin my shoes on returning home because of the river of piss I was forced to stand in for an hour and a half; I've never been back since. I must also say that most of the crime I saw committed during my youth was perpetrated by Catholic kids. My father had Catholicism forced on him as a child and my mother had suffered a similar Protestant fate, she used to say that religion had done nothing for her whatever. My dad called Catholicism "a religion of fear" but told me to make my own choice when I felt able.
I too have signed the petition even though I know they're generally ineffective. I'm glad to see the long-awaited (at least by me) politicisation of atheism has begun, once we gain strength the political vote-whores will have to change their ways.
Other Comments by Yorker
9. Comment #65732 by PeterHeasley on August 26, 2007 at 7:21 am
I too grew up in Northern Ireland and attended wholly Protestant schools both at primary and grammar school. During this period my sectarian beliefs were entrenched and during certain periods exacerbated due to in the in-group seige mentality that was created. It was not until university in England that I began to learn certain disciplines that would lead to a totally different line of thought processes which would lead eventually to my becoming atheist and a heck of a lot more liberal and tolerant.I should point out that I come from an affluent area of Northern Ireland and went to one of the top schools. Sectarian division runs through the whole structure of our society.
As such I am completely opposed to faith schooling of any sort. I yearn for the time in which schooling is wholly secular, although i'm worried this might be a pipe dream.
Other Comments by PeterHeasley
10. Comment #65736 by Student Grant on August 26, 2007 at 7:52 am
ReComment #65726 by IanRobinson
No argument from me about getting rid of religious schools. I think we differ over our definitions - as far as I can see, practically all schools in Northern Ireland are religious schools, whether they are run by the state or the catholic church.
I also went to a state school in the 70s and 80s, officially open to all comers. Of about 1200 pupils, five were catholics. It was de facto a protestant religious school. All RE teachers were from protestant churches, we were never exposed to any forms of belief other than evangelical protestant christianity, never mixed with catholic clergy or pupils - in effect, every bit as much a sectarian religious school as any christian brothers college.
As far as the chances of any of this changing substantially in the near future are concerned, don't hold your breath.
According to Archbishop Brady (catholic primate of all ireland), the expansion of integrated education in Northern Ireland would cause 'a very great hurt'.
Presumably he found the last forty-odd years a more comfortable experience.
Other Comments by Student Grant
11. Comment #65737 by mummymonkey on August 26, 2007 at 7:56 am
How "protestant" are the non-denominational schools in NI? At my schools in rural Perthshire there was no religion at all. Unless you count the weekly assembly when we mumbled our way through "All things bright and beautiful" before being told not to throw snowballs in the school grounds.Other Comments by mummymonkey
12. Comment #65738 by mummymonkey on August 26, 2007 at 7:58 am
Student Grant appears to have answered my question as I was typing it. Way to go!Other Comments by mummymonkey
13. Comment #65739 by PeterHeasley on August 26, 2007 at 8:11 am
Mummymonkey, Non-denominational schools in NI are what they say on the tin. Along with the prayers and hymns in assembly, we could count on evangelical/Presbyterian/Church of Ireland (Anglican)clergymen/women coming in for lunchtime talks,and suchlike. However, it wasn't the imposition of religion directly that caused such a problem. It was the soley Protestant nature/makeup of the school that bred and breeds sectarianism. They truely are bastions of Protestant Unionism. I didn't attend a Catholic school, but from speaking to friends who did, the case seems to have been equally as bad except for a more concerted effort to indoctrinate religious beliefs.It takes a concerted effort to make an integrated school in this country and I know a lot of areas have faced opposition in the setting up of such.
Aside from this, it is simply wrong that these people ought to be allowed to influence impressionable children with unjustifiable faith.
Other Comments by PeterHeasley
14. Comment #65741 by monkey2 on August 26, 2007 at 8:19 am
Yorker saidI'm glad to see the long-awaited politicisation of atheism has begun, once we gain strength the political vote-whores will have to change their ways.
You've spurred me into action. I've finally got round to joining the National Secular Society. The annual subscription was £22.
Other Comments by monkey2
15. Comment #65742 by aodh on August 26, 2007 at 8:27 am
I agree that schools in Scotland, and everywher else for that matter, should be secular, but properly secular. In the west of Scotland you have predominantly non-denominational schools and Catholic schools. There is one Jewish primary school and I think there are moves afoot to start a muslim one too. It may be only a matter of time before Buddists, Hindus, Pagans, Satanists etc are petitioning for their own schools! Although raised and schooled a catholic myself I chose a non-denominational school for my kids only to find that there was a Church of Scotland chaplain and end of term church services with some man of the cloth delivering social work lectures that were actually nothing to do with religion in my opinion. So I felt I had been misled by the term non-denominational. Here in west of Scotland the state should abide by the trades description act and remove any and all affiliations with religious groups. At least in the religious schools you get what it says on the packet.Other Comments by aodh
16. Comment #65743 by xurble on August 26, 2007 at 8:33 am
Although I completely agree that non-religious schools are a good idea, I can't help feeling that people are keen to overstate their benefits and potential impact.After all mixed race schools do not appear to have solved racism.
Other Comments by xurble
17. Comment #65744 by Flagellant on August 26, 2007 at 8:55 am
Further to my post #6, it is instructive to note the following e-petition results:1. Against road pricing: over 1.7 million
2. One in favour of faith schools: 18684
3. One petition against faith schools: 3191
We do have a problem, don't we? There are umpteen different anti-faith schools petitions so the message is getting a bit diluted.
Incidentally, many of the e-petitions are no longer accepting 'signatures' but there are still some live ones.
Religion - an activity for consenting adults in private.
[Major edit for accuracy - sorry.]
Other Comments by Flagellant
18. Comment #65745 by flashbaby on August 26, 2007 at 9:06 am
I went to school in the west coast of Scotland and the non catholic schools were effectively protestant schools. I only met anyone who was clearly neither protestant nor catholic when a family of ugandan asians appeared in my final year at school.There was one celtic supporter who was regularrly beaten up though as I recall not for supporting celtic but for coming from a mixed family ie catholic mother and protestant father even though he was raised a protestant it did not save him. He was the only "catholic" I knew of at the school.
As a Partick Thistle supporter I was merely pitied.
Other Comments by flashbaby
19. Comment #65746 by Student Grant on August 26, 2007 at 9:13 am
reComment #65743 by xurble
Mixed race schools clearly haven't solved racism, as it is rooted in much more than education alone. There is no single 'silver bullet' which can eradicate it. But imagine if there were such a thing as 'white-only' or 'black-only' or 'asian-only' schools. Remind you of anywhere? The glorious apartheid Republic of South Africa? 1960s Bible Belt USA? How racist were those societies?
Now transfer that perverted ideology to religion - 'protestant-only'/'catholic-only' schools. That form of religious apartheid exists in Northern Ireland and is on the march in Britain. It is not a case of overstating the benefits of integrated secular education, it is only one (admittedly major) part of eradicating religious bigotry.
The point is that it is almost impossible to overstate the harm that segregation (whether racial or religious) does to society.
Other Comments by Student Grant
20. Comment #65756 by willbonds on August 26, 2007 at 10:26 am
It's important to remember that institutional education is not education at all, but merely "schooling" in order to produce compliant consumers.Other Comments by willbonds
21. Comment #65759 by kaiserkriss on August 26, 2007 at 10:56 am
Comment 19 by Student Grant: I totally agree with you. By society concentrating on what makes us different from one another, be it religion, ethnic background etc., rather than building on the things we have in common, we (the collective we) are propagating all sorts of bigotry, and currently reaping the rewards of these policies.As an aside, I always thought (catholic) primate referred to the biological "order" to which our "genera" belonged.
Just like the church to butt in. Can't they just leave it at Archbishop, or do they a separate biological classification?? (just kidding)jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
22. Comment #65761 by Yorker on August 26, 2007 at 11:11 am
14. Comment #65741 by monkey2 Wow! I never thought my simple sentence would have that effect, I must do it more often. :)
But seriously, I heartily applaud your action.
Other Comments by Yorker
23. Comment #65762 by Yorker on August 26, 2007 at 11:18 am
20. Comment #65756 by willbondsAha, a man after my own political heart, I wouldn't put it as strongly as you but there's truth in what you say.
Other Comments by Yorker
24. Comment #65786 by Yorker on August 26, 2007 at 2:53 pm
As usual, the simplest arguments are best. Since 2+2=4 no matter what imaginary being one does or does not worship, there is clearly no need for religion in schools. No matter what facile bullshit politicians spout there is no way to deny that, whatever argument they make must therefore have nothing to do with education. Other Comments by Yorker
25. Comment #65788 by Yorker on August 26, 2007 at 3:10 pm
19. Comment #65746 by Student Grant "The point is that it is almost impossible to overstate the harm that segregation (whether racial or religious) does to society."
Indeed. But it's much worse, segregation is built-in to every aspect of our lives, we're segregated by job status, class, background, financial means, nationality and even by regional accent as well as religion and race. We need to rid ourselves of all forms of segregation if humanity hopes to have a long-term future.
Other Comments by Yorker
26. Comment #65789 by stereoroid on August 26, 2007 at 3:12 pm
That Bovril joke was told by Billy Connolly - I remember it well, and guess what? It's on YouTube Other Comments by stereoroid
27. Comment #65820 by scottishgeologist on August 27, 2007 at 12:25 am
Sterreoroid, re comment 65789, did you ever see "Just another Saturday" - a play about sectarianism in west Scotland - Billy Connolly plays a big part in it - powerful, telling stuff. http://www.screenonline.org.uk/tv/id/442522/index.html
I think a lot of the bigotry has subsided in Scotland now, prob a result of secularisation - the churches simply dont have the control they once had. I went to a tyical Scottish comprehensive school in the 70s - used to get the odd fight with "the papes" down the road but for the most part it was on the wane.
Mind you my mother still occasionally says thing like " my new neightbour, oh shes a catholic, but she's very nice!" Note the very telling use of the word "but"!
BTW, regarding faith schools, y'all might find this link interesting:
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2006/07/25/newsstory8579896t0.asp
Other Comments by scottishgeologist
28. Comment #65822 by Corylus on August 27, 2007 at 12:34 am
Arrh SG! You're a mean man ;-) That was not a face I needed to suddenly see when I was innocently munching on my morning muesli.
There are now oats on my pc screen and raisens in my hair...
Other Comments by Corylus
29. Comment #65824 by pewkatchoo on August 27, 2007 at 1:03 am
Yeeeuuuuccchhh! What an ugly sight.But I guess it confirms what I thought of the wee flea. He is simply a shameless self-publicist.
This sort of thing really annoys me though. His views are reported as if he is some sort of expert instead of simply being a believer in fantasies. Hundreds if not thousands of people look up to this cretin! The whole religion scam disgusts me totally.
Other Comments by pewkatchoo
30. Comment #65830 by Veronique on August 27, 2007 at 1:53 am
At least the photo identifier called the Flea Mr. rather than Rev, although the body of the piece does.Corylus wipe the screen off, have a shower:-). Notice that the Flea has no lines on his forehead – lack of life experience to my mind. No cogitation, no furrowing of the brow, no introspection. Bland acceptance defines him. SG, have more compassion than to thrust that article on Corylus while she's enjoying her breakfast!!:-).
The worry is that he's threatening to institute faith-based schools with taxpayers' funds. Join the gravy-train, Flea. That's right, turn all the little kiddies into little fleas. Go on, just do it!!
Seriously, I don't know how your taxes work in Scotland; can you mount a campaign to stop the Flea's proposed faith-schools being publicly funded? We may give him heaps here, how about the real world?
They are all parasites. Every last one of them. AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH.
Pewkatchoo God bothering for dummies. Is there any other kind?
But he loves you!
V
Other Comments by Veronique
31. Comment #65835 by pewkatchoo on August 27, 2007 at 2:37 am
VeroniqueThe Rat has got my dander up now. I will be confronting him on everything now. I am sending a letter to the Ayrshire Courier to rebuke them for giving him a free platform for his ridiculous views.
Incidentally, I don't have any lines on my forehead either. I just put it down to good genes as I certainly have a great deal of life experience. I do have laughter lines though.
Other Comments by pewkatchoo
32. Comment #65836 by BillySands on August 27, 2007 at 2:48 am
SG, I guessed what whas going to pop up, but why couldn't I stop myself - AAARGHHH.The problem is still there though. I sometimes hear vile comments on the bus to work in the morning.
On the subject of football, I think UEFA need to review their policies on handing out punishment. I would call killing referees worse than singing a few songs
Other Comments by BillySands
33. Comment #65839 by Luthien on August 27, 2007 at 3:06 am
7. Comment #65726 by IanRobinson on August 26, 2007 at 5:08 am
Re: Comment 5 from student grant
I went to a standard comprehensive school in the suburbs of East Belfast in the 1970's and early 1980's. It was not a "Protestant" school. Anyone could attend from the catchment area. There were very few Roman Catholics attending (it had about 1300 pupils in total). The reason for this was that there were Roman Catholic schools that bused the children of parents of that religion out of the area. I would say that there were (indeed are) state schools and then there are religious schools (mainly Roman Catholic) in NI. We need to abolish the religious schools and make them all state schools with no influence from any churches at all.
Bah! I was one of those poor people bused off to be brainwashed. Thankfully it didn't take ;-) I really think we need to break the influence of the Catholic church here in NI. It makes me really angry that I now get marked down as a "Catholic" on the monitoring forms, just because I got dragged to one of those schools. It makes them appear to represent WAY more people than they actually do! It is bizarre that the government would release that statement:
The Churches have a long history of providing education in this country and have confirmed their commitment to community cohesion. Faith schools have an excellent record in providing high-quality education and serving disadvantaged communities and are some of the most ethnically and socially diverse in the country.
Given the Catholic Church's past record in working with children. They should put the whole organisation on the sex offender's register for trying to cover it up like that!
Other Comments by Luthien
34. Comment #65841 by Veronique on August 27, 2007 at 3:55 am
31. Comment #65835 by pewkatchooGetting the dander up is good!! Forehead line defying genes is terrific!!:-). My genes aren't as lineless as yours, or maybe it's the sun in Oz:-). Laughing is a great way to develop lines: much better than serious contemplation of the ineffable and inadequate. (I'll get done for that one!!)
Go, baby!! Give no quarter; take no prisoners. Don't be seduced into intellectual wankerism!! The natural kind is far more satisfying:-). Someone needs to tell the Flea that piece of real living:-). Billy what do you mean, 'popping up':-)? Hahaha.
Flea – take your measure. You are on notice!! When are you going to pay your dues for the free forum you find here? Word for word (as the lawyers would like to be paid) you take the cake. Isn't it interesting to you that, no matter how many words you type, over and over again, you just can't break through common sense and reasoned argument with your religiosity and mouthiness?
I have to give you perseverance but that's all. I can't ascribe sense to your postings. Neither can most people here. Ho hum, that's the way it goes. Sorry buddy, you are way out of your intellectual depth on these threads.
But don't let that stop you, please!! Just pay your dues. Everyone will be happy then, knowing that you have paid for your posting rights. Wouldn't that make you feel more righteous and able to deliver your message? Righteous is good, no? I am sure you get my drift.
Build another line
V
Other Comments by Veronique
35. Comment #65844 by BillySands on August 27, 2007 at 4:26 am
Billy what do you mean, 'popping up':-)?
There's a horrible thought.
I would be suprised if the flea comes on this thread given that many in his church think the pope is the antichrist and that the church of Rome is the whore of Babylon. Poor flea cant decide what he believes on this matter publicly. I haven't heard him call for the inflammatory WCF claim that the pope is the antichrist to be outlawed, so I can only assume he is at home singing no pope, derry's walls, the sash etc and ending all things bright and beautiful with "fuck the pope"
Other Comments by BillySands
36. Comment #65846 by Yorker on August 27, 2007 at 5:04 am
This idiot Robertson wants to start Christian schools and says it's not discriminatory, the fool is intellectually bankrupt and beneath contempt. Rational argument can take place only among human beings of reason, Robertson fails to qualify on that and other scores. Ridicule and insult is all he merits, he should be treated as a pest that needs eradication.Unfortunately there will still be some here who can't see that talking to him is a waste of time; their logic escapes me. He won't be changed, can't see simple truths, and his last statement in that article is simply an insult to intelligent people. Isn't it about time you Robertson-lovers saw the light? Insult him, mock him, talk about him but amongst yourselves, addressing him directly makes you look silly; at least to me. Treat him as if he were dead because mentally, humanistically, and logically; he is.
Other Comments by Yorker
37. Comment #65848 by Quetzalcoatl on August 27, 2007 at 5:30 am
Robertson's article is ridiculous. He states that he doesn't want schools that are "sectarian and divisive". Absurd. Any school that will not allow a child to join because of their parents' faith (not their's, their parents') is by definition sectarian and divisive.He probably means "sectarian" in the sense of different groups of Christians. The irony of his inability to realise that Christians are just one group of the religious is laughable.
Personally, I think he knows the double standard of what he says, he just doesn't care, as long as he gets what follows his agenda.
Still, at least we know what he's been up to lately!
Veronique-
the whole "popping up" thing. You should know better. That made me faintly nauseous. I expect more from an erudite lady like yourself :)
Yorker-
who's your Native American friend?
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
38. Comment #65849 by Cregaune on August 27, 2007 at 5:34 am
[quote]The impact on that country's psyche is destined to be corrosive, a point stressed by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion. 'The troubles of Northern Ireland would disappear in a generation if segregated schools were abolished,' he says.[/quote]The troubles in NI had little or nothing to do with religious sectarianism. Religion was simply a reliable indicator of underlying political affiliation....Nationalism or Unionism.
The reason the 'troubles' in NI abated had little to do with Tony Blair's efforts or the lack of sectarianism in education. It was primarily due to increasing levels of education (generally), economic improvement and a consequent increase in cosmopolitanism in SOUTHERN Ireland (Rep. of Ireland). That resulted in a slow decline of support for the IRA in the South over the last thirty years.
I was educated in the Republic of Ireland during the sixties and seventies when the economy was on its knees and people took a strange pride in living in an 'Island of Saints and Scholars' (harking back to the Middle Ages). I was forced to learn 'rebel songs' at Primary school (a non religiously segregated state school). There was a general attitude of parochialism and a fear of the outside world where moral decay was considered rampant (a little like the attitude of the Islamic world today). Sinn Fein (the political wing of the IRA) used to conduct collections outside church gates on Sunday mornings.
The Seventies brought improved standards in education and the Eighties/Ninties brought economic affluence and the 'tiger economy'. The result was a new generation of people who saw the sheer stupidity and parochialism of Nationalism. The IRA couldn't recruit successfully in the Republic of Ireland and the organisation eventually withered and died.
RD made an unfortunate error in The God Delusion on this point. He effectively retracted it in subsequent interviews. It's a pity that he didn't see fit to correct it in the paperback version.
Other Comments by Cregaune
39. Comment #65852 by Dr Benway on August 27, 2007 at 5:56 am
Yorker:...he should be treated as a pest that needs eradication.Your enthusiasm for the flea analogy carried you away. We're not interested in eradicating anyone. It's enough to convince people that foolish notions are foolish.
Cregaune:
Religion was simply a reliable indicator of underlying political affiliation....Nationalism or Unionism.Funny how the political agenda correlates with religious affiliation.
Other Comments by Dr Benway
40. Comment #65854 by Luthien on August 27, 2007 at 6:00 am
38. Comment #65849 by Cregaune on August 27, 2007 at 5:34 am
The troubles in NI had little or nothing to do with religious sectarianism. Religion was simply a reliable indicator of underlying political affiliation....Nationalism or Unionism.
No, it is the other way around! Do you really think that it would be possible to reliably pass mere political views from parent to child for more than 400 years? No, it is the religious structures in place that keep the divide in place, and give people the feeling that they are morally justified in hating the other side.
In any case, the whole "situation" was originally caused by the power struggle between protestant England and the Catholic church (followed by a struggle between a catholic English king and a protestant Dutch king). Since Ireland was a convenient "back door" with a ready made army of brainwashed "loyal" catholics, the struggle ended up being played out here.
There was a general attitude of parochialism and a fear of the outside world where moral decay was considered rampant (a little like the attitude of the Islamic world today). Sinn Fein (the political wing of the IRA) used to conduct collections outside church gates on Sunday mornings.
I'm curious as to why you might link these 2 things, when it is clearly the catholic influence here perpetuating the idea of isolation and moral decay. It seems to me that the Sinn Fein collectors were just riding on the back of the more successful money collectors inside the church. After all, Sinn Fein have to walk to the church where the people are to collect money, whereas the church itself actually has people walk to it to give money. Who had the most power and influence?
Other Comments by Luthien
41. Comment #65871 by Cregaune on August 27, 2007 at 7:46 am
[quote]No, it is the other way around! Do you really think that it would be possible to reliably pass mere political views from parent to child for more than 400 years?[/quote]Yes, if those political views are underpinned by discrimination and fundamental irreconcilable differences in political outlook held by two sets of people living in close proximity to each other.
I grew up in the Rep. of Ireland. I left when I was twenty two. Back then I could empathise with the feeling of 'Irishness' that existed all around me. It was a feeling that was made of the same stuff as the parochial pride that motivated rivalry between individual counties in sporting fixtures. It had very little to do with Catholicism.
In the Sixties there were very tangible, non-religiously based reasons why Nationalists in Northern Ireland (and consequently, those in the Republic) felt resentment against the Unionist majority. There was widespread discrimination against Nationalists (making up the majority of the working class and living in certain defined areas). That they were Catholics was merely incidental. Simply becoming an atheist (or even converting to Protestantism) didn't make any difference. You were still considered part of the 'other' and the 'other' had nothing to do with religion.
Of course if you asked the average working-class Protestant or Catholic in Northern Ireland if they thought that their religion defined their political views, they would say 'yes'. That erroneous analysis was significantly eroded by better standards of education over a number of decades.
If you asked the same question of working-class (Catholic) people in the Republic the answer would have been 'no'. In the neighbourhood I grew up in, in the Republic, there were quite a number of Protestant families. They sent their children to local schools and there was no animosity whatsoever from the majority Catholic population. Having said that, those same people had very set views when it came to the politics of Northern Ireland. Those views were rationalised in terms of the desire to make Ireland one country 'again' and , prior to the Nineties, a hatred of the discrimination against Nationalists in Northern Ireland.
Other Comments by Cregaune
42. Comment #65882 by Luthien on August 27, 2007 at 8:43 am
41. Comment #65871 by Cregaune on August 27, 2007 at 7:46 am
Yes, if those political views are underpinned by discrimination and fundamental irreconcilable differences in political outlook held by two sets of people living in close proximity to each other.
But the method of separation is undeniably religious. Keeping each generation in separate schools so they are not exposed to any opinion other than their "side" is the main cause of all the problems.
n the Sixties there were very tangible, non-religiously based reasons why Nationalists in Northern Ireland (and consequently, those in the Republic) felt resentment against the Unionist majority. There was widespread discrimination against Nationalists (making up the majority of the working class and living in certain defined areas). That they were Catholics was merely incidental. Simply becoming an atheist (or even converting to Protestantism) didn't make any difference. You were still considered part of the 'other' and the 'other' had nothing to do with religion.
It seems you are also caught looking at this from one "side". Of course Catholics had very real reasons why they might have felt resentment, but you are not looking at the whole picture. Why do you think it was so easy for protestants to justify such discrimination in the first place? Why did the divisions not dissolve through friendships and marriages? National identity can also be divisive, but it does not in itself provide a mechanism to keep 2 halves of a population so entirely isolated from each other. It is easy to demonise people if you did not grow up with them.
You cannot escape the system by abandoning the religion of your birth because the people on the other side won't let you, and the school you went to will mark you like a tattoo for those who care about such things.
You are right that education is the key, but it is the "mixed" environment of the University campus that allows people to meet and befriend those like minded people they should have met in school. I would never have met my partner if we had not met at university (in spite of our Atheism, we were trapped on different "sides" via the school system).
Other Comments by Luthien
43. Comment #65888 by epeeist on August 27, 2007 at 8:55 am
Comment #65841 by Veronique
Flea – take your measure. You are on notice!! When are you going to pay your dues for the free forum you find here? Word for word (as the lawyers would like to be paid) you take the cake. Isn't it interesting to you that, no matter how many words you type, over and over again, you just can't break through common sense and reasoned argument with your religiosity and mouthiness?
But that isn't what the flea is here for. He is here to provoke, so that he can go back to his backers with (quote mined) comments to show how rabid, fundamentalist and militant we are.
Hence all the ad hominem, sneering attacks on people, the total disregard for arguments, the constant equivocation.
Other Comments by epeeist
44. Comment #65940 by Yorker on August 27, 2007 at 1:21 pm
37. Comment #65848 by Quetzalcoatl It's from the famous series of paintings made by George Catlin during his exploration of the West.
This one is a Piegan Blackfoot chief named "Stu-mick-o-sucks", which means, "buffalo bull's back-fat".
Other Comments by Yorker
45. Comment #65941 by Yorker on August 27, 2007 at 1:27 pm
39. Comment #65852 by Dr BenwayNo, I'm not carried away, I'll let you know if that happens. I used that phrase to be insulting as possible, I would have thought that most people would have understood it wasn't meant to be taken literally, apparently you didn't. Incidentally, when was the last time you saw the flea realise the folly of his notions?
Other Comments by Yorker
46. Comment #66157 by Prufrock on August 29, 2007 at 4:57 am
I fear any attenpt to secularise the education system will meet with very strong resistance for the time being. Judging by poll results mentioned by a previous poster it seems the idea of abolishing faith schools is doomed for the time being also. However, if we face the reality that people are still infected with the faith virus and that it will take time for the antidote called reason to be found, it may be an idea to consider going the whole hog and turning religious study into an academic discipline. A person I know studied comparative religion at university and it helped her finally accept her non belief, even though she came from a strong catholic background. Maybe it would be an idea to make religious study compulsory and then force schools, especially faith schools, who need to show their utitlity and objectivity, to teach comparative religion to GCSE and A level standard. This kind of solves the problem of ignorance of - I know, slavish following of superstition is the real problem - and prejudice towards other belief systems. The hope may be that if you see the absurdity of other beliefs, you'll see the inherent insanity of your own. Just an idea, and I know, probably a bad one.Other Comments by Prufrock
Over 1.5 million copies sold
Books by Richard Dawkins
The Oxford Book of Modern Science Writing
by Richard Dawkins
The Selfish Gene
by Richard Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker
by Richard Dawkins
The Ancestor's Tale
by Richard Dawkins
Unweaving the Rainbow
by Richard Dawkins
1. Comment #65706 by PaulJ on August 25, 2007 at 11:02 pm
How apt!
Good article. Someone who has looked at the situation and is telling it how it is.
Other Comments by PaulJ