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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document There is no God and Dawkins is his Prophet

by Father Ulf Jonsson SJ. Svenska Dagbladet

The God Delusion by the British evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins will be available in Swedish shortly. Dawkins became world famous in 1976 as the author of The Selfish Gene, a book that many consider to be one of the most important works of popular science in the 20th century.

Dawkins had given a glimpse of his critical views on religion earlier, but in A Devil's Chaplain he dropped all constraints and attacked Christianity outright. His new book is a 400-page showdown with religion in its Jewish, Christian and Muslim forms. It will interest anybody who is the least bit interested in religion.

Dawkins attacks along two frontlines. First he wants to prove that God does not exist and that religion is intellectually second-rate, then that religion is the cause of an enormous amount of misery and evil. The four first chapters are devoted to the first frontline, the others to the second one. The stated purpose of the book is to make its readers atheists. Dawkins preaches his message with the evangelical's steadfast rhetoric: paradise is within reach, you can live very happily without religion.

In his foreword Dawkins declares that he addresses people who have been brought up with religion but are beginning to feel uncomfortable with it. He wants to help them to liberate themselves from faith and make them realise that they can live good and happy lives also as atheists. Not only that. Since religion is the root of much evil in the world, as many people as possible must throw off the burden of faith and became aware of the fact that God does not exist and that religion is unnecessary. Religion is a by-product of evolution and has survived since mankind has benefited from it. However, nowadays we understand that God is an illusion and that religion causes damage. This damage must be minimised.

According to Dawkins, faith is passed on from parents to children like a virus or as religious memes, in other words as cultural genes. The impressionable children are injured for life. The remedy is to see to it that they are given no religious instruction at all. This is the decisive solution. A whole chapter of The God Delusion equals religious upbringing with child abuse. Religious schools indoctrinate the children with creationism and stops them from thinking in scientific terms. Christian children grow up fearing hell, Jewish and Muslim boys are mutilated as soon as they are born.

Dawkins presumes that religion wishes to explain certain phenomena, e.g. the origin of universe. He does assume that most people approach God for other reasons - because they long for a meaning of life or for consolation - but he leaves such things aside. His view of God coincides with the idea of God as the intelligent designer of the universe, and in the third chapter he discusses the arguments for the existence of God to find out if there actually is an intelligent designer of that kind. He brings out ancient proofs of the existence of God but leaves fresher and sharper arguments aside. However, he misunderstands conclusive points of the old arguments. Two examples chosen at random: contrary to what Dawkins says, the medieval theologian Thomas of Aquinas' famous third proof of the existence of God does not rest on the difference between physical and non-physical entities but on the difference between possible and necessary entities. Dawkins obviously has no idea of Immanuel Kant's equally famous and pioneering criticism of the ontological proof, and he also seems to describe Norman Malcolm as an opponent of the ontological argument, although Malcolm was one of its most ardent proponents. As icing on the cake, Dawkins refers to a website with faked and facetious arguments for the existence of God. To put it mildly, that chapter does not add anything of value to the discussion. The next chapter is better. There Dawkins delivers what he presents as the crucial argument of the book.

This crucial argument is supposed to show that it is extremely unlikely that God exists. Dawkins calls it "the ultimate Boeing 747". With the so-called anthropic principle as a starting-point he stresses how unlikely it is that the universe exists at all. Therefore it is natural to try to find an explanation for it. The religious explanation is that there is a divine intelligent designer that has created it all. But the explanation fails on two accounts. First, we are left with the question who created God in the first place and then with an endless regress of causes. Second, a being that is so intelligent that he can create the universe must be extremely complex. But complex structures do not exist in the beginning of a developmental chain but appears only at the end of a long process. Consequently, it is almost certain that no divine intelligent designer exists.

The argument against the existence of God is interesting and deserves to be discussed seriously, despite certain obvious weaknesses. One is that it presumes that the mechanisms ruling the biological evolution can be applied immediately at the birth of the universe, although these mechanisms came into existence much later. If God exists, it is also reasonable to expect that he is of another kind than we biological beings and cannot be understood as a product of a biological evolutionary process. As to the problem with the infinite regress, other thinkers have already come up with alternative solutions, which Dawkins does not seem to be aware of. One is that God is unique inasmuch as he is his own cause and that God therefore is the very solution of the regress problem. There is another problem that is embarrassing for Dawkins: the regress problem appears also when one looks for one great scientific theory about everything, as Dawkins himself does. It may be possible to develop Dawkins' argument and sharpen it. In his own eyes it is highly important, but in its present form it is hardly convincing. The reviewer in Nature dismisses it drily as "a less than compelling argument".

The God Delusion has raised a lively debate both in Europe and in the United States, and opinions differ widely. The reviewers in The New York Review of Books and The London Review of Books dismissed it for its mocking tone and lack of objectivity, while The Times Literary Supplement praised it as a welcome critique of religious fundamentalism. Alister McGrath has written two books as an answer to Dawkins' challenge. The most recent one, The Dawkins Delusion?, with Joanna Collicutt McGrath as co-author, will appear shortly in Swedish.

One point that McGrath makes is Dawkins' definition of religion as "faith without reason", i.e. that religious faith does not rely on reasonable arguments. A belief of this kind exists in fundamentalist groups but is rejected by the main churches. Therefore the idea that Dawkins presents in his book can be seen as a persuasive definition of religion, rather than as a description that the great majority of believers feel at home with. History is full of religious thinkers who have presented arguments in favour of their faith, and Dawkins himself devotes part of his book to a discussion of such arguments. Here he seems to have been impressed by McGrath’s critique, since he has admitted in an interview that his definition of religion does not fit in with that of theologians like McGrath. Neither do they agree on another important point, how faith and violence can go together.

In his later chapters Dawkins quotes many examples of violence caused by religion. Here he points at the true Achilles’ heel of religion, and his arguments in this part of the book are also more effective than those in the first part. How is it that religion, which should foster brotherly love, so often ends up doing the opposite? McGrath’s answer is that evil is a general problem that both theists and atheists are exposed to. Dawkins argues that religion, as opposed to atheism, has caused a great deal of evil. Admittedly, atheists are also guilty of horrible crimes; suffice it to mention Stalin. But, says Dawkins, it is not atheism as such that has inspired these crimes, as opposed to religion.

McGrath and Dawkins have totally different views on religion and violence. Their disagreement is further fuelled by Dawkins’ opinion that even moderate forms of religious faith are dangerous and clear the path for violence by religious extremists. Moderate forms of religious faith enjoy respect in society, but the result is that people abstain from criticising religion also when it turns into extremism. Dawkins’ argument can of course be rejected as an example of guilt by association. According to the same reasoning, anybody interested in politics could be denigrated as a potential fascist. But in spite of that objection, and even if atheism too has inspired violence, the decisive question remains: how is it that religion is so often used to justify violence?

What, then, is the purpose of The God Delusion and which readers will Dawkins convince? The book addresses those who have been brought up with a religion but who are looking for a way out of it. Whether Dawkins will convince them or not is partly a matter of their own experiences coinciding with his description of religion. He is at his strongest in his examples of how religion can be abused. Religious leaders who encourage the use of religion as a cover for all kinds of horrors and violence, or who look the other way when that happens, have every reason to lie very low. The chapters where these questions are discussed will probably attract more attention than those about the intellectual aspects of faith. Even if Dawkins obviously is right when he says that creationism should be rigorously kept out of schools, his criticism of the lack of rationality in religion is not convincing since it rests on a gross caricature. He does admit here and there that not all believers are fundamentalists and that there are even some very prominent scientists who believe in God. However, he finds that extremely puzzling, even to the extent that he wonders whether they really are believers or have allowed themselves to be bribed by religious organisations.

Here we have the fundamental problem with Dawkins' approach. He divides the world into two camps: good, tolerant atheists who believe in science and evil-minded, intolerant believers who try to counteract science. People who fall outside this pattern have no room in his view of the world. In that way he is weakening his chances of establishing a constructive dialogue with his opponents, who feel that he is unfair to them or does not even make an effort to understand them. In a world where we more than ever need a sensible dialogue between different cultures and philosophies of life, marked by respect and willingness to understand the other party, Dawkins resorts to stereotypes and provocations. In his urge to liberate the world from all fundamentalists and intolerant dogmatists he is dangerously close to becoming one of them.

Translated by Margareta Eklöf

Comments 1 - 47 of 47 |

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1. Comment #66268 by DrShell on August 29, 2007 at 2:20 pm

*Sigh*

This old crapola again.

Other Comments by DrShell

2. Comment #66272 by adriang63 on August 29, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    He divides the world into two camps: good, tolerant atheists who believe in science and evil-minded, intolerant believers who try to counteract science.

One is left to wonder if Father Ulf Jonsson SJ. Svenska Dagbladet could be projecting, in this case.

Adrian

Other Comments by adriang63

3. Comment #66273 by Dax on August 29, 2007 at 2:46 pm

[...] or does not even make an effort to understand them

What is there to understand? "Oh, you believe to know the mind of our unproven Creator, though he cannot be known using our feeble human abilities." No, I still don't understand it.

You cannot fully understand something that is made up and has no real verifiable framework to compare it to.

Other Comments by Dax

4. Comment #66274 by philosowizer on August 29, 2007 at 2:52 pm

That was a horrible article.

"As to the problem with the infinite regress, other thinkers have already come up with alternative solutions, which Dawkins does not seem to be aware of. One is that God is unique in as much as he is his own cause and that God therefore is the very solution of the regress problem."

When will these people get it through their thick heads you can't create God from nothing either. And as Dawkins says "Now your stuck with explaining the existence of God."

Other Comments by philosowizer

5. Comment #66275 by Yorker on August 29, 2007 at 2:55 pm

 avatarI soon as I saw this was written by a "Father", I read no further, I'll leave that to you masochists. ;)

Other Comments by Yorker

6. Comment #66276 by panajache69 on August 29, 2007 at 2:56 pm

 avatarDawkins is attacked as dividing the world into two camps - good atheists and evil believers. I think the two camps are actually those with B.S. detectors and those without B.S. detectors.

Other Comments by panajache69

7. Comment #66277 by Janus on August 29, 2007 at 3:03 pm

 avatarIt seems to me that if I had to write a review of a book several months after its publication, I would take a look at a few of the reviews which have been written already and I would try to say something mildly original.

There isn't a single point in there that hasn't been refuted a thousand times in the comments posted on this very site, for the FSM's sake.

Other Comments by Janus

8. Comment #66280 by Ohnhai on August 29, 2007 at 3:11 pm

 avatarthough I thought the third and fourth paragraphs were a prety decent summation of TGD.

BUT


FFS!!! STALIN's ATHISM WAS NOT THE ROOT CUSE OF HIS ACTION!!! IT WAS THE FACT HE WAS A BRUTAL TOTALITARIAN DICTATOR WHO SAW ANY KIND OF OUTSIDE ORGANISATION AS A DIRECT THREAT TO HIS POWER BASE.....



also, I've noticed a new trend. this problem the initial cause needing to be complicated if the ideas of creation by a being are to be believed. THis fella (and several others) seem to be suggesting that as complex can arise from simple that the initial cause and thus creator could well be simple.

Are they really trying to suggest that they are happy to down grade their god from all powerful to less then the simplest life form? It would be truly funny if they were.

Other Comments by Ohnhai

9. Comment #66281 by AnthSynthasome on August 29, 2007 at 3:16 pm

 avatar"We should always be disposed to believe that that which appears white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides." Ignatius of Loyola, Spanish founder of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits - S.J.), Exercitia spirtualia, 1541.

In light of this, I am decidedly unimpressed with any of Padre Jonsson's, S.J. bleating on this subject. How someone could consign our greatest faculties, reason and skepticism, is beyond me.

Other Comments by AnthSynthasome

10. Comment #66282 by Quine on August 29, 2007 at 3:20 pm

 avatarAgain we see the attempt to use logic without regard to one of its fundamental principals: a false premise implies any conclusion.

The assumption of the existence (without evidence) of a supernatural power, provides the false premise upon which an argument, to any doctrine of choice, may be constructed. Most fundamentalists are at least honest enough to admit that they just believe what they have been told (read in scripture) to believe.

Other Comments by Quine

11. Comment #66291 by robotaholic on August 29, 2007 at 3:42 pm

 avatarIt seems to me that Professor Richard Dawkins dichotomizes the two sides to the argument quite correctly...

1. those who believe in invisible people with superpowers (intolerant believers who try to counteract science)


2. people who don't (good, tolerant atheists)

and yes, you're right, these stupid objections to TGD have soooo been stated and restated to DEATH - If I were RD, I wouldn't read critical reviews anymore, just ignore them - they're always wrong.(usually I wouldn't say that except when its anything verses cold, hard, repeatable and tested science, anything loses.)

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12. Comment #66292 by notsobad on August 29, 2007 at 3:44 pm

 avatar"He divides the world into two camps: good, tolerant atheists who believe in science and evil-minded, intolerant believers who try to counteract science."

Once you start with straw men, your argument is dead.

Other Comments by notsobad

13. Comment #66303 by BAEOZ on August 29, 2007 at 4:36 pm

 avatar
As to the problem with the infinite regress, other thinkers have already come up with alternative solutions, which Dawkins does not seem to be aware of. One is that God is unique inasmuch as he is his own cause and that God therefore is the very solution of the regress problem.

And I could postulate a giant donut, mmm sweet donuts, that is the divine torus and is calling us to eat donuts with pink icing, for that is his favorite type. This donut has always been and will always be. Being a torus, it is circular, with a hole in the middle, and thus has no beginning or end, it just is. This removes any problem of who baked the divine donut, no infinte baker and flour regress problem. Of course, this donut cannot not be measured and is not of this world, it is this world, so don't even try.
QED. The creator of the universe is a divine donut, and those who don't eat donuts are bound not to be sweet enough to be accomodated in its heavenly hole.

To reiterate
a false premise implies any conclusion.

Thanks Quine!

Other Comments by BAEOZ

14. Comment #66308 by Henri Bergson on August 29, 2007 at 4:50 pm

 avatarSweden is destroying itself at the moment by 'accepting' all cultures & religions.

Last year the Swedish courts didn't pass sentence on a muslim who beat his wife because in his culture that sort of behaviour was the norm, and it would be 'intolerant' to jail him.

Sweden's 3rd city, Malmö, has been predicted to be the first European city with a muslim majority.

This foolish priest says that Dawkins' atheism is dangerous as we 'need a sensible dialogue between [sic] different cultures', not sensible atheism...

Sweden, wake up and smell your great coffee!!

(Thank Odin the God Delusion has been translated into Swedish though.)

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

15. Comment #66312 by dancingthemantaray on August 29, 2007 at 5:05 pm

"He brings out ancient proofs of the existence of God but leaves fresher and sharper arguments aside"

Like what?

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16. Comment #66331 by Inferno on August 29, 2007 at 5:49 pm

 avatarI liked the first third of the article, but then it falls into the usual drivel of claiming there are proofs of god that Dawkins hasn't discussed, but never mentions what these are.

The alternatives to the origin of the universe and god are good enough as food for thought, but the author draws the wrong conclusion. There are an infinte ways a god MAY exist, but without any evidence, isn't it more likely that none of them are true?

Other Comments by Inferno

17. Comment #66337 by phasmagigas on August 29, 2007 at 5:59 pm

 avatarthe fairy that lives in the bottom of my carnivorous pitcher plant also created itself, quite astonishing so i need not ponder how it came to be anymore.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

18. Comment #66355 by sabre_truth on August 29, 2007 at 7:01 pm

P1. A is A

P2. Every effect differs in some way from its cause.

Then, if God is His own cause, it follows that God differs in someway from Himself. That is, God is not God, a contradiction.

Therefore we conclude that God is not His own cause, or either P1 or P2 is false.

If we are to insist that God is His own cause, then we have an example where A is not A. Some people might be willing to drop the law of identity, and with it the entire edifice of logic. If not, then they must accede that an effect can be identical to its cause, in which case we would have no means of determining a which is the cause and which is the effect, and in fact the entire concept of causality would be rendered senseless.

To put it another way: Is the God who caused God the same or different from the God who was caused by God? If the same, then God did not cause God, and if different, then God is not God.

Other Comments by sabre_truth

19. Comment #66366 by HappyPrimate on August 29, 2007 at 7:59 pm

 avatarAfter reading the whole of the article, I found he finally says what he wants to say - Dawkins is not playing fair with the believers. Dawkins should be nicer and more reverent to those who believe. It is not nice to be so blunt just because we are so deluded we cannot see beyond our noses. We like being deluded so go away and let us get on with our make-believe lives because most of us are harmless.

At least it looks like the good Father actually may have read the book.

Other Comments by HappyPrimate

20. Comment #66367 by Electric Monk on August 29, 2007 at 8:17 pm

... pity he didn't understand it.


"He brings out ancient proofs of the existence of God but leaves fresher and sharper arguments aside."

We keep on hearing about these more recent proofs but we're NEVER told what they are or who thought of them! - Maybe we should just have faith in their existence?

Other Comments by Electric Monk

21. Comment #66381 by Inferno on August 29, 2007 at 9:57 pm

 avatarI have to say, I do like the title to the article: "There is no God and Dawkins is his Prophet".

Almost beats my other favourite: "Hitchens to God: Drop Dead".

Other Comments by Inferno

22. Comment #66387 by 82abhilash on August 29, 2007 at 10:56 pm

If this is the best argument a Swede can come up with in defense of religion, then Dawkins has nothing to worry. The Swedish edition of his book will also be a best seller. A new class of militant atheists will arise in Sweden and they will keep the Muslim immigrants under check. For their own sake, they better.

Other Comments by 82abhilash

23. Comment #66413 by Philip1978 on August 30, 2007 at 12:46 am

 avatarAt first I was interested in what this guy was saying, as HappyPrimate pointed out, he does actually look like he has read the book rather than skimmed over it like many others who criticised it.
I even for a small 5th of a millisecond thought he would actually have some worthwhile things to criticise about the book (I love the God Delusion but I like to hear about what others think about it as well). I apologise to you all for indulging in such madness for such a long period of time but I am human after all!!

I love the way it mostly comes down to "Well, sorry, you don't know who or what my god is, he is above your petty amazing intellectual discussions and reasoning, he is more than that...what ever that actually is!"

Oh dear!
Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

24. Comment #66437 by Moridin on August 30, 2007 at 2:14 am

 avatarYes finally! I'm from Sweden (but I read the English version).

This is exactly what Sweden needs, even though it is the least religious country in the world. This will push the majority in-the-middle people to reject religion.

The Swedish titles will be Illusionen om Gud (The Illusion of God) and Atheismens Illusioner (The Illusions of Atheism).

Other Comments by Moridin

25. Comment #66443 by Prufrock on August 30, 2007 at 2:33 am

I must have learning difficulties! I read what people like Father Ulf Jonsson have to say every time, and not just read it, I mean read it, until the very end, in the vain hope I might actually read something vaguely evidential or even interesting. But no ... just the same, tired old psuedo nonsense. I remember Dr Benway suggesting people google logical fallacies to learn how to pick out bad logic and to construct truthful logic. Maybe the people who need to do the googling most are the people who write articles like this. I've heard all of this so many times; maybe the perpetrators believe a lie becomes true the more you tell Mmmmmm... yawn.

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26. Comment #66458 by magetoo on August 30, 2007 at 3:26 am

Untranslated Swedish version here, for those who might prefer that.

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27. Comment #66473 by cutemartin on August 30, 2007 at 4:41 am

"First he wants to prove that God does not exist"

No, he doesn't. The clue is in the chapter title "Why there almost certainly is no god". Not that hard to understand.

"and that religion is intellectually second-rate" Again no, he shows that faith is intellectually vacuous. It is not that religion is the result of poor thinking, but of a complete lack of reasoning.

Perhaps he means that Dawkins is suggesting that religious people are second-rate intellectually. He (RD) isn't, but perhaps if they could show they understand Dawkins' book rather than misrepresent it (see my first point!), they would do a better job of showing their intellectual prowess...

Other Comments by cutemartin

28. Comment #66478 by GBile on August 30, 2007 at 5:05 am

As to the problem with the infinite regress, other thinkers have already come up with alternative solutions, which Dawkins does not seem to be aware of. One is that God is unique inasmuch as he is his own cause and that God therefore is the very solution of the regress problem


An alternative 'alternative solution' might be that 'something' might have been its own cause and that this something's only achievement was to set in motion a chain of events, ultimately resulting in, among other things (?), the Big-Bang-birth of our universe.

Every 'Father' in the world could arbitrarily call this uncaused 'something' God, but any linkage to behavior as 'singing on Sundays', 'bowing on carpets in a certain direction', 'wearing patches of cloth on the head' will take a lot of additional thinking (or imagination).

Other Comments by GBile

29. Comment #66488 by Misha Vargas on August 30, 2007 at 5:50 am

 avatarFather Ulf Jonsson is using slightly warped versions of what Dr. D actually wrote. Here is one example:

Dawkins declares......Religion is a by-product of evolution and has survived since mankind has benefited from it.


That latter half is not quite right, from what I remember. It could be true, but Dawkins actually gave an alternative hypothesis.

And I wish he had quoted the book when he stated this:

He does admit here and there that not all believers are fundamentalists and that there are even some very prominent scientists who believe in God. However, he finds that extremely puzzling, even to the extent that he wonders whether they really are believers or have allowed themselves to be bribed by religious organisations.


I don't remember that bit about bribery, can anyone find what Father Ulf is referring to? Maybe the translation was bad?

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30. Comment #66495 by pewkatchoo on August 30, 2007 at 6:11 am

 avatarJust one more piece of worthless nonsense. However, I wonder who is his audience given that Sweden is supposed to be firmly secular and atheistic.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

31. Comment #66506 by phasmagigas on August 30, 2007 at 6:47 am

 avatarthe whole god is the reason for its own existence, thats a bit like searching for google on google and shouting, 'see, google!!' Now if a 4 year old did that you might say 'yes, darling, google' but for anybody older you might just start to worry.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

32. Comment #66507 by tieInterceptor on August 30, 2007 at 6:47 am

 avatar
Henri Bergson:
Sweden is destroying itself at the moment by 'accepting' all cultures & religions.

Sweden's 3rd city, Malmö, has been predicted to be the first European city with a muslim majority.


OH NOES! ,

Sweden with its 85% atheistic/agnostic population and holding again the number 1 place in the 2006 Democracy chart by 'the Economist' it is the perfect example that atheism does lead to better society, or at least does not destroy one.

the last thing we need is ... Islam crashing the party.

seriously...

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

33. Comment #66537 by Frank Grimes Jr on August 30, 2007 at 10:49 am

Well, I've been reading more or less every news item and feature article (along with comments) on this site for a long time now and I guess the time has come to dispose of my silence and post my first comment.

Being Swedish and having read TGD about a year ago (just after having picked it up after a visit to Oxford where I was recommended it by a friend doing research in the Department of Zoology) I have since then had the joy of recommending it to a lot of friends, most of which have really come to like it.

In fact, for the last year there has been an ever growing number of people that I've that has been talking about TGD, as well as other related books (Hitchens, Harris, Dennet, etc). Even though Sweden is a very secular country, there certainly are lots of people that tend to lean towards religion, astrology, spiritual healing, and other sub-rational learnings.

As the interest for these books have been steadily growing, especially for the last six months, I was actually expecting some media attention. During the last two weeks, that is exactly what has happened. (Now, I'm sure there's no connection to TGD having been translated into Swedish just now, right?)

The article above had my blood boiling out of frustration at the Sunday breakfast table, while at the same time I realized that this is _exactly_ what we need here as well - a rational debate (well, at least our learned father is trying to be, or is he?) about god.

Earlier this week, the largest morning newspaper in Sweden, DN (liberal) had an editorial published by the well renowned journalist Göran Rosenberg - someone I actually thought pretty well of before I read it. It actually makes father Ulf's article above look amazingly well researched and thoughtful.

The editorial, entitled "Gud är inte död" (God is not dead) is available (in Swedish) at http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=578&a=685652 and contains a pretty much complete collection of all the tired arguments against RD. I could attempt a translation should anyone be interested?

Altough the article almost made me sick with it's poor arguments and lack of clear thinking, I guess I should be happy that this is actually on the agenda now. What surprises me is that none of the two persons arguing on the side of god seems to have been reading much of the debate that has been going on for such a long time now - after all, I'm pretty sure both of them know enough English to read, for example, comments on this site. But then again, it's not a bad thing that they haven't done their research before debating - all the easier it is to argue with them.

Sorry for the long first post. I'll try to be more concise in the future (realizing now that this last remark made the post even longer).

Other Comments by Frank Grimes Jr

34. Comment #66581 by Logicel on August 30, 2007 at 1:55 pm

 avatarWe have been served with a steaming heap of Swedish meatbull.

Truly pathetically 'reasoned' article. He plods through his reading of TGD in the most boring and uninspired way, and then just meanders along his own little, private way--his conclusions show he dutifully read it without comprehending it.

Other Comments by Logicel

35. Comment #66691 by Vaal on August 31, 2007 at 2:09 am

 avatarOh Dear, just the usual hyperbolic straw man argument, all adding up to "God created himself". Is this the best the religites can come up with? No wonder they have lost the debate, if it ever was worthy of being called a debate. As Carl Sagan commented, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

As for using McGrath, the king of straw men, as a foil against RD, then he really is clutching at straws.

I went to boarding school at the same college as McGrath in N. Ireland, and had to endure going to church three times a Sunday. The school, to be fair, didn't try to proselytize the pupils and it was a great college, that I would gladly endorse for a sound education. However, Sunday was different with an "Ian Paisley" type preacher glaring malevolently at the ranks of 12 year old's in the front pew, barking "YE WILL ALL GO TO HELL UNLESS YE READ YER BIBLE!". We treated him with the contempt he deserved, although I remember being astonished that the adults in the church couldn't see that the man was a browbeating imbecile.

Personally, I never felt any divine presence in the church, always wondered who on earth they were talking to, and saw the whole essence of the bible as arrogant nonsense. It was blatantly obvious that Man created God, and that the church was only about power and sustaining ignorance.

Later I took a keen interest in Astronomy and was enthralled at the scale of the Universe and how small and pretentious human beings are. I saw how the church constantly fights against knowledge that contradicts its own importance, and I angrily see a revival of the forces of unreason today. However, I believe that reason will endure, and that the shamans and witch doctors will eventually be consigned to the dustbin of history, where they belong, for the good of humanity, and the planet.

Other Comments by Vaal

36. Comment #66698 by Kevin Ronayne on August 31, 2007 at 3:12 am

 avatarHere we go again:

"The stated purpose of the book is to make its readers atheists."

Where, or where, does RD say that exactly? Lying for Jesus again by the looks of it.

Other Comments by Kevin Ronayne

37. Comment #66795 by Steven Mading on August 31, 2007 at 12:55 pm

From the article:
One point that McGrath makes is Dawkins' definition of religion as "faith without reason", i.e. that religious faith does not rely on reasonable arguments. A belief of this kind exists in fundamentalist groups but is rejected by the main churches.

No, it most emphatically is NOT rejected by the main churches. That's the whole freakin' POINT of that part of the book. Gaaahhh! If anything this bit I quote has it 100% inverted. The moderate mainstream churches have MORE of a tendancy to put faith above reason than the fundamentalists. Fundamentalists try to claim that their belief is backed up by objective demonstrable fact - that the Bible is a truthful account of things. They're wrong about those "facts", of course, but at least they do recognize the need to rely on more than just faith. The moderates, on the other hand, are the ones who recgonize how often the Bible gets the facts wrong, and so they shift to the faith argument, where they want the topic to be treated as if it was subjective - where the bible doesn't really need to be literally true as long as your belief is based on faith.

This reviewer got it 100% backward. The moderates are the ones trying to claim you don't need facts because its just a matter of faith alone. The fundamentalists use distorted facts to back up their claims, but at least they're keeping things in the realm of the objectively arguable, rather than retreating to the subjective fuzzy area to try to stop all debate on the topic and make it all be about feelings.

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38. Comment #66796 by Steven Mading on August 31, 2007 at 12:59 pm

In comment 37, Kevin Ronayne says:

Here we go again:

"The stated purpose of the book is to make its readers atheists."

Where, or where, does RD say that exactly? Lying for Jesus again by the looks of it

Not to defend such an awful review, but in the interest of honesty I have to point out that this is one of the few things the reviewer did get right. The book actually does say in the beginning that RD wrote the book with the hope that one who is not an atheist when he starts the book will be one by the time he finishes it. It really does say that.

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39. Comment #66803 by detox on August 31, 2007 at 1:45 pm

 avatarWhilst I agree with the majority of posts here saying that the guy has drawn the wrong conclusions in his review, I am at least encouraged by the fact that a representative of the catholic church has bothered to read the book.

Sure, he trots out all the hackneyed cliches but I would suggest that unless the faith-heads read the Dawkins argument then it is impossible to have a meaningful debate.

It has to be preferable to engage them in a debate where they know our side rather than have them stick their fingers in their ears, going, 'Waa, waa, waa.'

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40. Comment #66804 by liberalartist on August 31, 2007 at 1:48 pm

 avatarI work at a Jesuit college (lots of SJ's around here!) and we require all students to take logic- not that it seems to be of much use since they are also required to take theology. People believe what they want to believe and make up the reasons as they go along. For catholics, the magic word is "mystery". If you can't prove it, then its all a part of the "mystery of god". Forget logic! I am always amazed by intelligent, educated people who stubbornly believe in the make-believe.

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41. Comment #66989 by ksskidude on September 1, 2007 at 8:29 am

 avatarWell I believe we all live inside the finger nail of a giant ( Animal House idea)from another space and time. Inside that giants nail is a replica of his world when first created. See the universe is 100 trillion years old, I just know this, trust me, I feel it truth pulsing through my 12 DNA stainds. Actually though, I had a vision, no, a dream, wait, a revelation from this giant, looks kinda like ah, Shrek, and he told me so. He also wrote a book and called it the bible. Man's he is so intelligent, because look at how beautiful this world is, the mountains, and streams, and the death and rape.....

I am not very creative, that was a poor attempt at humor, but, I guess if I had to imagine a world in which I would create. I think I could come up with a better world. Like Sam Harris said, surely we could have written a better ten commandments if we were omniscient. We would know that the people that were going to screw it all up because of the original vagueness.
How people can defend such incompetence of 'all-everything' deity is beyond me, and because of that outrageous incompetence, not be able to see its untruth. It simply makes no sense for a so-called perfect deity to get anything wrong. Wait for it.........wait..........."god works in mysterious ways. we can't understand everything." I guess you also don't understand the defintion of perfect.

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42. Comment #68086 by DNAproduct on September 6, 2007 at 5:11 am

 avatarMisha Vargas asked:

I don't remember that bit about bribery, can anyone find what Father Ulf is referring to? Maybe the translation was bad?


I'm sorry I don't have time to find the exact quotes at the moment (really sorry, because I'd enjoy any excuse to skim through TGD again), but I'm sure Father Ulf is referring to a prize given by somebody like the Discovery Institute.
As I remember, Dawkins mentioned at least a couple of times that certain, ahem, "scientists" had received this large monetary prize. I seem to recall at least one sentence questioning the integrity of scientists who accept this money.

Well, I should be on a bike ride, but you made me curious so I found one example, at least. It wasn't the Discovery Institute, though of course they do basically the same thing.

Paul Davies's The Mind of God seems to hover somewhere between Einsteinian pantheism and an obscure form of deism - for which he was rewarded with the Templeton Prize (a very large sum of money given annually by the Templeton Foundation, usually to a scientist who is prepared to say something nice about religion).

TGD page 19

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43. Comment #69360 by Misha Vargas on September 11, 2007 at 1:52 am

 avatarDNAproduct...

Thanks for the scrounging.

IF that's Ulf's only source, he is being quite unfair in his statement. And by not quoting, his readers are left unaware of Ulf's bias. Dawkins original statement was not a broad characterization of all religious scientists.

Of course, this whole thing has been translated twice between English and uhm...Swedish.

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44. Comment #69370 by Goatboy2012 on September 11, 2007 at 2:42 am

 avatarHe's referring to the "Templeton Prize for Progress Toward Research or Discoveries about Spiritual Realities", previously, and rather more honestly, called the "Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion".

Sadly far more respectable people than the Disco Institute are behind the award (which has a larger cash prize than the Nobel) and, frankly, they should be hooted at in the street for it.

Mind you, given the title of the award and the mealy mouthed ecumenicalism they espouse on their site, I think someone might try having Professor Dawkins nominated for the award.

};op

It's not exactly a revelatory work, but the God Delusion is certainly concerned with spiritual reality, it just happens to conclude that the very idea is a contradiction in terms.

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45. Comment #69380 by yanco on September 11, 2007 at 3:21 am

 avatar"He divides the world into two camps: good, tolerant atheists who believe in science and evil-minded, intolerant believers who try to counteract science. People who fall outside this pattern have no room in his view of the world."

I'm sick and tired of this endless series of strawmen being spat out by theists. They can never beat a mediocre atheist in argument so all they can do is build this absurd strawmen and kick the heck out of them instead..

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46. Comment #69400 by Marie-Louise on September 11, 2007 at 5:59 am

Hi !
I have been following this site for some time and enjoyed it very much. I am so happy I found it. Thank you everyone who is writing here.

In Sweden it is not difficult or dangerous to be an outspoken atheist. You may even be a politician and an atheist. But the majority of people still belong to a church but every day people leave church.

This is very good,but what is really frightning is that many instead turn to new age, believing in horoscope and tarot card and so on. Even otherwise intelligent people.
And in Norway princess Martha-Louise just started a school to teach how to get in contact with angels!

About this article in SvD by Ulf Jonsson : I think SvD ought to be ashamed to let someone so unobjectiv and biased to make the review

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47. Comment #69665 by DNAproduct on September 12, 2007 at 5:19 am

 avatarGoatboy 2012:

I love the idea of nominating Dawkins for a Templeton prize. If only it depended on signatures or something, so that we could contribute to him actually winning it.
I was just reading in another thread about how this site lacks any sense of humor. The next post I read was yours, and I cracked up at that idea.

Marie-Louise:

Nice to hear from you. I've been daydreaming about moving to Sweden since I recently read that up to 85% of people there are atheist/agnostics. Good for you that you're not one of the ones turning to horoscopes and tarot cards!

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