1. Comment #66307 by jimmm33 on August 29, 2007 at 4:46 pm

Great little debate.

I was wondering what Hitchens would have to say about Mother Teresa's lack of faith. Bill Donohue got beat up on pretty bad. What's his hang up about the dimensions of Hitchen's book? That was weird.

I like how Matthews said Hitchen's writing where brilliant at the end.

Great stuff.

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2. Comment #66311 by Kinobe on August 29, 2007 at 4:59 pm

Bill Donohue was trying to look on top of things, but was clearly wetting himself.

"The only people who don't have doubts today are dogmatic atheists. People like you, Chris"

"Christopher."

Gold.

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3. Comment #66314 by Inferno on August 29, 2007 at 5:07 pm

Christopher Hitchens on Mother Teresa's side ... Brilliant!

Does this now mean that if any good did come out of her life's work, we chalk that up as a win for atheism, ie she did it despite a lack of faith, not because of it?

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4. Comment #66315 by Lucas_the_heretic on August 29, 2007 at 5:08 pm

"An Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman talks." Donahue really pulls out all the theist stops here. Change the subject, talk over your opponent, shout, and when all else fails, threaten violence. "I'm an Irishman. Listen, you want to take it outside, Christopher, that's fine."

I'm surprised Donahue didn't threaten Hitchens with fire and brimstone.

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5. Comment #66316 by LeeLeeOne on August 29, 2007 at 5:12 pm

The education of the many (mass public availability for information) outweighs the need for education of the few (i.e., behind closed doors disclosures).

This relates to all political, environmental, social, economical, etc., entities. Information and education of ALL must take priority, even at the expense of a "precious memory of the beholden" (as I was once verbally reminded of).

Truth teaches. Lies deceive.

To hold honesty and I mean rock-bottom, deep-down honesty, up to the test of "rose-colored glasses", what ultimately teaches more? Honesty to lies - which is better for humanity?!

Truth teaches, even hard-to-swallow, teaches truth.

Lies, even white-innocent-lies, teaches lies.

Ultimately, in the betterment for humanity, for the betterment of everything, which is best?, and I do not speak of short-term gains, I'm talking about the 'long haul', perhaps even billions of years!

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6. Comment #66318 by dancingthemantaray on August 29, 2007 at 5:19 pm

Gosh, didn't the catholic sound so shrill and desperate..don't much like Hitchens, and don't think he actually had anything to say here, but he really is a master at overpowering a debate and coming off the victor

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7. Comment #66320 by roach on August 29, 2007 at 5:21 pm

Ugh. Donahue is such a blowhard. What the hell does "The Missionary Position" have to do with MT's letters of doubt? It would have been nice if Matthews kept them on point.

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8. Comment #66324 by plastictowel on August 29, 2007 at 5:28 pm

What a dolt.
"only dogmatic atheist don't have doubt"
The entire PREMISE OF ATHEISM IS DOUBT.

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9. Comment #66325 by John P on August 29, 2007 at 5:33 pm

Where does Matthews stand?

"Your writings are BRILLIANT!"

And he wasn't speaking to Donohue.

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10. Comment #66335 by phasmagigas on August 29, 2007 at 5:56 pm

Irishman?? he sounds like no Irishman ive ever heard. He figures by saying that that every person in the USA with any degree of irish ancestry will take him seriously. Can you imagine anybody of any other nationality saying that and not causing a riot.

aside, what have any of Bills comments got to do with MT's apparent lack of belief?? One of the most desperate rants off topic ive ever heard.

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11. Comment #66338 by Shuggy on August 29, 2007 at 6:01 pm

I didn't know this word a couple of months ago* but now I can use it with confidence:

PWNED!

*and I still don't know how to pronounce it.

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12. Comment #66342 by RickM on August 29, 2007 at 6:06 pm

Donohue is a Superbuzzhead; no further comment necessary.

Saint Teresa; the first atheist saint?

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13. Comment #66346 by Auld on August 29, 2007 at 6:27 pm

"The church kept her letters even though one of her dying wishes was to have them destroyed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Gv68wRC1Y

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14. Comment #66347 by mintcheerios on August 29, 2007 at 6:35 pm

Donohue is an idiot.

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15. Comment #66348 by quilsnavious on August 29, 2007 at 6:36 pm

MT probably did more good than harm and I am sure she helped people. The fact that she had a crisis of faith is a minor item. The works she did, both good and bad, could have been done by someone who had different beliefs or no beliefs. I find the honesty of her letters refreshing, but sad. She was just playing a role that others had written for her - she knew it was not real - but the Church insisted that it was real. This is kind of like going to see peter pan at a children's theater and pretending that you don't see the wires.

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16. Comment #66350 by Crazymalc on August 29, 2007 at 6:40 pm

"An Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman talks."

"Do you want to take it outside?!"

And they accuse Hitchens of being arrogant...

What a horrible small minded little man

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17. Comment #66352 by robotaholic on August 29, 2007 at 6:47 pm

you were right 66346 Auld - they kept her letters, even though it was her dying wish that they be destroyed -that is pretty much proof of what Hitchens says that she was used for publicity- I think that's terrible. Now when you look up famous atheists on google, mabye you'll get mother theresa :))

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18. Comment #66359 by Dr Benway on August 29, 2007 at 7:19 pm

James Bond vs. Elmer Fudd.

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19. Comment #66368 by EvolvedDNA on August 29, 2007 at 8:22 pm

Is it just me or do I notice a lot of these religious appologists have that insipid smile on their faces, as if they are laughing at anyone who thinks they are wrong? Donahues never left his face the entire discourse. This must be some tactic they use to try to intimidate an opponent, which failed big time in this case.

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20. Comment #66370 by roach on August 29, 2007 at 8:27 pm

EvolvedDNA,

I've noticed that too. It happens in all types of debates. I like to think that the insipid smiles are the result of the speaker being incapable of not laughing at his/her own bullshit.

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21. Comment #66372 by Vardu on August 29, 2007 at 8:32 pm

If Donahue is the best the Catholics can put forward to defend the faith, then it's in deeper doodoo than I ever imagined.

And I think the "insipid smile", or chagrined grin, that EvolvedDNA refers to above, masks the intense desperation the faithful are experiencing these days as they begin to recognize just how advanced the death throes of religion really is.

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22. Comment #66373 by sabre_truth on August 29, 2007 at 8:38 pm

When I saw the title of this post, I processed the name "Bill Donahue" as "Phil Donahue"...never heard of Bill Donahue before, and from what I saw, no loss that I hadn't.

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23. Comment #66374 by Spinoza on August 29, 2007 at 8:47 pm

Shuggy, it's pronounced "Poned" (like 'boned').

And yeah... Bill Donahue is quite silly, as are most Catholics... especially born-again ones. Crazy bastards have been saying dumb shit for thousands of years now...

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24. Comment #66377 by heathen2 on August 29, 2007 at 9:07 pm

Isn't Bill Donohue the same guy from the catholic league that was interviewed on Penn and Teller's Bullshit! episode abour Mother Teresa? Seems like I've seen him on some show.

And the whole thing about nuns being "brides of christ" is just gross, sick and twisted.

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25. Comment #66378 by Jack Rawlinson on August 29, 2007 at 9:09 pm

"An Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman talks"

Great argument, Paddy!

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26. Comment #66379 by Matty Two-Tone on August 29, 2007 at 9:39 pm

Once again Bill Donahue slanders our good name by invoking his Irish heritage ad-nausium. Can't we excommunicate him or something? "Sorry Bill, but you brought this on your self. Enjoy being a 'West-British American.'"

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27. Comment #66389 by sent2null on August 29, 2007 at 11:01 pm

Shuggy, Spinoza,

Or for those cognizant of the variability of pronunciation based on its derivation "owned".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwned

L33t ...during the early 90's when others were wasting their time on bbs's I was learning yet another programming language. ;)

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28. Comment #66391 by drbreakfast on August 29, 2007 at 11:18 pm

Hitchens was sharp and the Catholic guy was blowing slogans, but I did not understand the point of the "debate." Hitchens applauds her for doubting her "faith" and the Catholic apologist just shouts "the Catholic Church stands behind her." OK, so they're both applauding her but for different reasons. What's the point?

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29. Comment #66400 by Liveliest Crib on August 29, 2007 at 11:44 pm

19. Comment #66368 by EvolvedDNA on August 29, 2007 at 8:22 pm

Is it just me or do I notice a lot of these religious appologists have that insipid smile on their faces, as if they are laughing at anyone who thinks they are wrong? Donahues never left his face the entire discourse. This must be some tactic they use to try to intimidate an opponent, which failed big time in this case.

20. Comment #66370 by roach on August 29, 2007 at 8:27 pm
I've noticed that too. It happens in all types of debates. I like to think that the insipid smiles are the result of the speaker being incapable of not laughing at his/her own bullshit.

It is most definitely a debating technique, though I'm more inclined to think that the speaker donning the smile is masking concern that he might be losing. It's for the benefit of anyone judging the debate. It's a kind of bluff designed to show the audience that the speaker is confident, his opponent laughable.

It's ridiculous, of course. As a trial lawyer, I know never to let the jury or my opponent see me sweat. But if I come off as arrogant and smug in the process, I'll lose.


4. Comment #66315 by Lucas_the_heretic on August 29, 2007 at 5:08 pm

"An Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman talks." Donahue really pulls out all the theist stops here.

Is that a religious statement? What is that quote? Donohue repeated it. Apologies if I come off as an ugly American, but I've never heard that phrase before. Is it a proverb of sorts?

Other Comments by Liveliest Crib

30. Comment #66407 by Big T on August 30, 2007 at 12:10 am

So Mother Teresa endured both great doubt and great pain in her life? Doesn't everyone? The Bible and the Qur'an both threaten doubters with the ultimate punishment. Both of them, in my opinion, advocate a sort of totalitarian mind control. And adherents of both Christianity and Islam have caused, and continue to cause, great suffering in the world. We should all continue to think for ourselves, to ask questions, to examine the evidence, to doubt. "The one thing of value, in the world, is the active human soul." (Emerson) I believe Emerson also wrote "Nothing in the universe is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." Let's hear it for doubt, doubters, and original thinkers.

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31. Comment #66418 by roach on August 30, 2007 at 1:11 am

Liveliest Crib,

I agree with what you say. I should have bolded the word "like" in my previous post to make my joke/wishful thinking apparent.

Other Comments by roach

32. Comment #66428 by nickthelight on August 30, 2007 at 1:45 am

...."you've got no eveidence" - Cheeky fucker!!

Other Comments by nickthelight

33. Comment #66435 by BAEOZ on August 30, 2007 at 2:11 am

I have some Irish blood too! Anybody want to step outside for a blue? I'll be right around to accommodate you in an...eternity. (Hopefully no one knows where this cowardly little devil lives :))
What a wanker! Just a puffed up try hard.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

34. Comment #66436 by Tobbe on August 30, 2007 at 2:12 am

When all arguments for the existence of God fails, and they all do, the last outpost is the claim to have a subjective experience, a personal relationship with Jesus, so strong that it's impossible to doubt. (And have a big happy smile on your face and call atheists angry)

Now if God didn't even speak to Mother Theresa, what's the chance that the voice you hear in your head has divine origin?

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35. Comment #66441 by bamboospitfire on August 30, 2007 at 2:20 am

"Bill needs 30 seconds,"

"He can hang himself any time he likes..."

Genius!

Did anyone else laugh at Donohue every time he criticized The Missionary Position for its lack of citations and evidence?

I give the Bible an F!

Other Comments by bamboospitfire

36. Comment #66442 by pewkatchoo on August 30, 2007 at 2:22 am

There is no such quote, Donahue is simply being a fool, something that he is obviously well qualified for. I would have loved it if Hitchens had replied 'OK you loud-mouthed pr1ck, outside now and we will see what you've got.'

In Scotland we invite someone for a square-go.

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37. Comment #66444 by BMMcArdle on August 30, 2007 at 2:35 am

How can something that lasts for half of your life (40 years) be called a crisis?
Too bad she didn't publicly admit her doubt, she could have gotten more psychological help for it than from her church.
Nontheless, this is probably helping a lot of doubters struggling with the same one-way conversation with a non-existent god.

Don't be born-again, just grow up.-anonymous

Other Comments by BMMcArdle

38. Comment #66446 by lpetrich on August 30, 2007 at 2:41 am

Is it the latest fashion among anti-atheist believers to brag about their doubts, to say "Look how doubtful I am about my beliefs! You are MUCH more dogmatic than I am!"?

Especially when the theology that they subscribe to teaches that doubt is a sin.

Is it a way of accusing us of what they consider themselves often accused of, of being dogmatic?


Also, if Bill Donohue is going to wield his Irishness with "an Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman talks", then I wonder if he'd enjoy being described as fitting an old stereotype of Irishmen as being drunken brawlers.

And as to Mother Teresa being "married to Christ", she and other nuns would make him a polygamist on a massive scale.

Other Comments by lpetrich

39. Comment #66448 by scooternyc on August 30, 2007 at 2:49 am

Perhaps the "sound-bite-citizen" is swayed by the credulity of such statements of "you've got no evidence" when in fact, Christopher Hitchens, as much as I can recall from all his writings, does not make such claims without proper diligence and factual evidence, this is a precept of his writing which makes him all the more reliable. When challenged on facts that need correcting he's always acquiesced if proper citation and evidence was presented, a greater sign of humility than any religious person has ever exampled.

As with most of the argument on the opposition, their "logic" is of attacking an idea rather than offering anything of their own.

If the opposing gentleman (and I use the term loosely here) had viable evidence to contradict Christopher, then why not just trot that out rather than the feeble attempts of his mere disagreement with Hitchens' statements.

Much is the case with Intelligent Design, not facts of your own just a disagreement with your facts but nothing to back up my disagreement with your facts.

WHAT? LOL!

As with all religion, facts are distractions. Reason and logic are interruption to fantasy.

Other Comments by scooternyc

40. Comment #66453 by Paul Creber on August 30, 2007 at 3:01 am

"An Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman talks"

Which of course explains why Englishmen everywhere have been obliged to take a lifelong vow of silence.

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41. Comment #66459 by aleprechaunist on August 30, 2007 at 3:34 am

An Englishman must remain stumm when an Irishman talks

Aaargh!! As an 'actual' Irishman (and an Atheist) happily living and working and living in the UK in the 21st Century, with many English relatives, it makes my blood boil to have that buffoon claim some romantic notion of Irishness as a cover for his loudmouthed ignorance, and to presume to able to speak on my behalf!!

Unfortunately it's the simplistic notions of people like this that fuelled a lot of the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland...

Sorry...just needed to get that off my chest!

Other Comments by aleprechaunist

42. Comment #66460 by rev on August 30, 2007 at 3:36 am

well, well, the poor irish guy was rubbished, and as for being really irish mmmm well, he aint good looking enough to be irish.

Other Comments by rev

43. Comment #66468 by ricey on August 30, 2007 at 3:55 am

What's this "an Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman speaks" stuff?

Didn't I read somewhere that Hitchens was born in Northern Ireland? And "catholic boy" Donahue dosen't sound like any Irishman I know.

Other Comments by ricey

44. Comment #66474 by the great teapot on August 30, 2007 at 4:41 am

Hitchens was born in Portsmouth, England.
Can we offer a prize for the first person who has actually heard the well known saying "an Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman speaks" before.

Other Comments by the great teapot

45. Comment #66477 by bamboospitfire on August 30, 2007 at 5:03 am

I'm surprised that Donohue didn't acknowledge the fact that the Hitch is, in fact, from Northern Ireland. Doesn't he watch CBS?!

http://richarddawkins.net/article,1550,A-Matter-of-Faith,CBS-Sunday-Morning-Julia-Sweeney-Christopher-Hitchens

Other Comments by bamboospitfire

46. Comment #66482 by Fanusi Khiyal on August 30, 2007 at 5:33 am

What I would like to know is when the hell did Christopher Hitchens start describing Mother Teresa as a 'simple and honest' woman?

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47. Comment #66484 by BigJohn on August 30, 2007 at 5:38 am

Anyone ever noticed that the weaker their point the louder some people talk?

Other Comments by BigJohn

48. Comment #66485 by CJ22 on August 30, 2007 at 5:44 am

Surely, he's an American now.

Other Comments by CJ22

49. Comment #66486 by martind2001 on August 30, 2007 at 5:45 am

In an interview, CH says that he was born in Portsmouth, England. I also remembered the CBS video, which is linked on these pages, and was confused. But does it matter! I'm sure the majority of real Irish and American Irish would prefer not to associate with this character! (And I say that as a Brit with 75% Irish ancestry).

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1295/is_n2_v61/ai_19056329

Like CH and other posters, I feel sorry for MT, who obviously spent her life living a lie, and half of her life realising this, but unable to do anything. It makes me think of my mother, who is in her 80's, and at heart is as much an atheist as me - but she is too scared, after a lifetime of brainwashing, that it all might be true, and she'll go to hell. You've got to sympathise!

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50. Comment #66489 by captain underpants on August 30, 2007 at 5:52 am

Can we offer a prize for the first person who has actually heard the well known saying "an Englishman has to be quiet when an Irishman speaks" before.

I got zero hits in google.

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