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Wednesday, August 29, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document The importance of doubt

by John Cornwell, Guardian

Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2158503,00.html

John Cornwell struggled with his faith for two decades before finally returning to Christianity. Here he explains why Richard Dawkins, and all those who believe religion is the root of all evil, completely fail to understand what it means to believe

It is a year since Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion prompted a torrent of adulation and anguished riposte. The crucial issue he raised is not so much that religious believers can morph into violent extremists (which they patently can), but what is to be done about it. Dawkins thinks that religion is irrational, because it means accepting truths without logic and evidence; and dangerous, because such systematic irrationality can lead to extreme acts of violence. So hideously irrational and dangerous is the disease of faith, he claims, that faith instruction to the young is worse than paedophile abuse. Dawkins wants to rid the world of religion.

What are the prospects for wiping religion off the face of the earth? Stalin attempted, in vain, to eliminate religionists by working them to death or hanging them. Hitler starved and gassed them. Dawkins wants to eliminate belief with a dollop of science. While his book has no doubt offered encouragement to convinced atheists, there is scant evidence that he is discouraging even the lukewarm believers, let alone enthusiasts. Yet if it is unrealistic to rid the world of religion, surely there is a third, well-tried way, which is to tame religion of its excesses by encouraging believers to respect, and to coexist with, all those they regard as dissidents and heretics, as well as agnostics and atheists. The fact that religionists already do this in vast numbers, in many parts of the world, notably most of Europe and North America, brings us to what I see as not so much a flaw as a vacuum in Dawkins' thinking: he simply does not get the point of pluralist societies under secular auspices. Nor does he credit believers with the capacity to be pluralists and democrats, even though members of the great world religions have contributed to the formation and preservation of pluralism, and resistance to its opposite - totalitarianism - in the modern period. Dawkins' failure to accept that religious believers are capable of respect, a healthy measure of doubt and latitude of imagination, needs examination. But first, here's a believer who had doubt and imagination in abundance.
Not long before his death in 1991, I was sent by a newspaper to Antibes in the south of France to quiz Graham Greene about his religious beliefs. His faith, on the surface, seemed to be a mix of superstition, guilt and scepticism, spiced with Catholic orthodoxy. He thought it only natural to hope for an afterlife, but heaven sounded boring and hell implausible "because God is supposed to be infinitely merciful". And he admitted to uttering a prayer whenever his plane came in to land. He said he had met John Paul II, whom he thought an unpleasant dogmatist, in his dreams: "Instead of dispensing communion wafers he was giving out ornate Italian chocolates."

So which central doctrine, I asked Greene, enabled him to describe himself as a Christian? He said that he started writing fiction while working as a reporter on a provincial newspaper. So he felt he had an intuition, "as good as any Glaswegian chief sub-editor", to distinguish between fact and fiction. When he read the story in John's gospel of the two disciples racing each other to the empty tomb after Christ's body had disappeared, he felt that it was "authentic reportage". It was this, he went on, that "enabled me to doubt my doubt about the resurrection". Doubt my doubt! What is more, he saw the resurrection less as a literal historical fact and more as a powerful symbolic notion that could be reinterpreted from age to age. It was clear that Greene's resistance to dogma, whatever its origins, underpinned his attitude towards politics as well as religion. He was as scathing of the atheistic persecution of religion in Mexico in the 1930s as he was criticial of Franco's campaign, under Catholic auspices, in the Spanish civil war.

As someone who had wavered between agnosticism and atheism for two decades, before having returned queasily to Christianity, I empathised with Greene's faith as "doubt of doubt" as opposed to faith as certitude. Faith is a journey without arrival, complicated by false turns, breakdowns, dead ends and wheel-changes. Faith, like love, is seldom entirely constant; nor is it irrevocable. While frequently assailed by doubt, faith is open to provisional, symbolic interpretations (most Christians outside the American bible belt do not take the book of Genesis literally). Those who pursue a religious vocation are not spared vicissitudes of faith and doubt, any more than card-carrying atheists. Mother Teresa, the Albanian nun who worked for the poor in Calcutta, left letters in which she spoke of her doubts right up to her death: "Where is my faith?" she once wrote to a confidant. "Even deep down ... there is nothing but emptiness and darkness. If there be a God - please forgive me." By the same token, Professor AJ Ayer, the most ardent atheist of his day, proclaimed that he believed in an afterlife following a near-death experience in 1988 when he was clinically dead for four minutes. After a few days, and an outcry from the atheists' society, of which he was the president, he partially recanted: "What I should have said is that my experiences have weakened, not my belief that there is no life after death, but my attitude towards that belief." Doubt of doubt.

And yet, Dawkins is as reluctant as any evangelical fundamentalist to recognise the importance of an element of doubt, or doubt of doubt, in religious faith, or to accept that much of the content of religious faith is metaphorical, poetic and symbolic rather than factual in a scientific sense. He is convinced that faith is in all circumstances absolute, seamless, literal. This implausible understanding of what it means to believe gives his case against religion its sensationalist, emotive edge; by the same token it robs his solution - what do we do about extremism? - of any feasibility.

Dawkins nourishes a disturbing contempt for religious believers. Here are some of the descriptions he applies to them: "malevolent ... vicious, sadomasochistic and repellent ... dodgy, perniciously delusional ... sanctimoniously hypocritical ... cockeyed ... " At the heart of his book, he makes a distinction between what he calls "mild religion" and "extreme religion". But both, he maintains, are equally capable of prompting acts of extremism, such as suicide bombing, in religion's name. "The take-home message," he writes, "is that we should blame religion itself, not religious extremism - as if there were some kind of terrible perversion of real, decent religion." Then he asserts: "I do everything in my power to warn people against faith itself, not just against so-called 'extremist' faith. The teachings of 'moderate' religion, though not extremist in themselves, are an open invitation to extremism."

Through the excited syntax he is declaring that if you go to church, synagogue, mosque or temple only once a year, you are just as liable to perpetrate fanatical deeds on the basis of faith as an al-Qaida terrorist. Faith, mild or extreme, is a mental state, Dawkins argues, that involves an open invitation to hatred and violence.

While religious belief may be sufficient to explain some extreme acts, it does not explain all extreme acts. Fundamentalism is as likely to be found in the qualitative conclusions of science as in religion. Under Hitler, it was the science-based ideology of racial hygiene that led to the first concentration camps - based on the recommendation that certain groups were in need of quarantine. Stalin's ideology saw the implementation of socio-biological principles based on Lamarck - the inheritance of acquired characteristics - legitimising strategies of enforced collectivisation of agricultural labour, and ruinous systems of agricultural production. Biologists who refused to believe in the inheritance of acquired characteristics landed in jail. It is not religion alone and of itself that leads to fundamentalism and its social consequences, but an insistence from any ideological source that only one set of convictions should prevail.

The oppression and violence that invariably attends fundamentalism and totalitarianism, whatever its origins, are precisely the result of a withdrawal of respect for the nay-sayers, dissidents and heretics. The Catholic church was patently capable of oppression of heretics in countries where Catholicism had a monopoly, right up to the papacy of John XXIII. It was Pope John who in 1960 insisted, even in the case of Soviet communism, that "one should respect the person even if one does not respect his or her convictions". The very last decision of the reforming Second Vatican Council, which Pope John initiated in 1962, approved a crucial and unprecedented document on religious freedom, insisting on the basic human right of all to hold values and beliefs of their own choosing. One is perfectly entitled to proclaim: "Well, better late than never!" But it shows that even the most dogmatic of the world's religions, if encouraged, can discover a latent propensity towards pluralism in the ideal of non-judgmental universal love.

Dawkins claims, however, that religious believers deserve neither respect nor rights in any circumstances. One of his constant explanations for the spread and lethal nature of religion is based on the idea of cultural traits transmitted by what he calls "memes", items of information that behave like viruses. He writes of those "afflicted with the mental virus of faith, and its accompanying gang of secondary infections". The idea of religious believers as disease carriers is not trivial, for it suggests a contrast between the disease and the theoretically healthy body of society, along with the necessity for antidotes.

Religious memes, he writes, go around together from brain to brain in mutually compatible gangs: "These gangs will come to constitute a package, which may be sufficiently stable to deserve a collective name such as Roman Catholicism ... it doesn't much matter whether we analogise the whole package to a single virus." The shocking aspect of this notion is its depersonalisation, reinforced in an alarming chapter which claims that Jews, and indeed Jesus Christ, did not teach love thy neighbour as thyself and that the 10 commandments - including thou shalt not kill - applied only within the Jewish group.

Dawkins parallels his viral analogies, moreover, with sinister medical analogies. "In the history of the spread of faith," he writes, "you will find little else but epidemiology and causal epidemiology at that." He refers to believers as "faith sufferers", and to himself and like-minded associates as "we doctors". Much as I am convinced that Dawkins deplores the ideology of nazism, the precedents of such medical analogies, applied to certain religious and racial groups, have hardly been innocuous in the history of the 20th century.

Nazi ideology subscribed from the very outset to the idea of the German people as a type of anatomy subject to bacilli. It harped on the introduction of undesirable extraneous influences on the healthy societal body, the Volkskorper, behaving like pathogens; analogies of cures, surgery and purging naturally followed. As early as 1925 Hitler lamented the fact that the state did not have the means to "master the disease" that was penetrating the "bloodstream of our people unhindered". Such ideas, bogus as they were pernicious, referred to the leadership as "healers". By the mid-1930s the ideological bio-political content of nazism merged with Nazi medical science. The Nazi plenipotentiary Dr Gerhard Wagner wrote of the volkisch body being in need of "cleansing", while the language of "immunity" and "radical therapy" became routine.

Dawkins' recourse to the analogies of disease and medicine is, of course, entirely well meant, and I know him to be a man of the most liberal sympathies, but has he considered the far-reaching consequences of similar metaphors employed by far less well-meaning figures? It was only to be expected that a bold thesis that condemned religion en masse would have profound socio-political implications. Dawkins is a brilliant natural historian, whose science books I have celebrated in a string of reviews. The God Delusion has been criticised for trespassing clumsily in the realms of theology; but my own objections are more in the ambit of socio-politics. Put bluntly, The God Delusion is liable to persuade religious fundamentalists that a pluralist secular society is every bit as hostile to the practice of faith as they ever thought it to be. By urging the elimination of religion in the name of all that civil society holds dear, Dawkins is inviting fundamentalists to be even more fundamentalist. His book, then, is a counsel of despair as well as an incitement to the very thing he deplores and seeks to remedy.

· John Cornwell is director of the Science and Human Dimension Project at Jesus College, Cambridge. His book Darwin's Angel: An Angelic Riposte to the God Delusion is published in hardback by Profile on September 6, priced £9.99.

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1. Comment #66390 by 82abhilash on August 29, 2007 at 11:12 pm

Facts are twisted, ideas are misrepresented. John Cornwell wants to perform the incredible task of championing doubt as a cause for faith! We all know Richard Dawkins will change his mind when presented with evidence, so I will leave you all with another atheist scientist's comment on the need for doubt.

"If we want to solve a problem that we have never solved before, we must leave the door to the unknown ajar..............If we suppress all discussion, all criticism, proclaiming "This is the answer, my friends; man is saved!" we will doom humanity for a long time to the chains of authority, confined to the limits of our present imagination. It has been done so many times before."

This lecture was given by Richard Feynman in 1955. He was involved in making the first Atom Bomb.

http://www.phys.washington.edu/users/vladi/phys216/Feynman.html

So you be the judge, is Richard Dawkins suppressing ideas or fighting those who suppress them?

Other Comments by 82abhilash

2. Comment #66393 by Richard Dawkins on August 29, 2007 at 11:28 pm

He refers to believers as "faith sufferers", and to himself and like-minded associates as "we doctors".

I cannot believe Cornwell didn't realise that "we doctors" is a joke. "What we doctors call . . ." is a ubiquitous trope in humorous writing, as Cornwell must know. This deliberate twisting makes me suspect his sincerity in other parts of his article. Here is the sentence from TGD in which the joke appears:

First, genes are linearly strung along chromosomes, and so tend to travel through generations in the company of particular other genes that occupy neighbouring chromosomal loci. We doctors call that kind of linkage linkage, and I shall say no more about it . . .


Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

3. Comment #66398 by greg_m on August 29, 2007 at 11:39 pm

"Hitler starved and gassed them (religious believers)"

So Hitler's motivation was to fight religion, rather than his deluded belief in a quasi-religious ethnic myth? A pathetic attempt to align neo-atheists with Hitler (and Stalin).

Other Comments by greg_m

4. Comment #66399 by EgoSumNemo on August 29, 2007 at 11:42 pm

 avatar
What are the prospects for wiping religion off the face of the earth? Stalin attempted, in vain, to eliminate religionists by working them to death or hanging them. Hitler starved and gassed them.

Hey, wait a second! Sure, Stalin killed a lot of religious ppl, BUT he also killed a lot of non-religious ppl. Also, he didn't kill them BECAUSE they were religious - merely because he saw them as a threat to world communism. And Hitler didn't kill because they were religious, but for what specific religion they had(For the same reason Tomás de Torquemada killed a lot of non-christians)(Hitler also killed a lot of ppl for other strange reasons). Hitler killed everyone he considered a threat to Aryan world domination. However, white German Christians were NEVER considered a threat(In fact, the pope supported Hitler). IF Hitler would've tried to eradicate religion, wouldn't he have tried to kill them as well?

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5. Comment #66405 by Damien White on August 30, 2007 at 12:00 am

Yet more evidence of religion as little more than wish-fulfillment.

It is not enough to say that something is true because you wish it were so.

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6. Comment #66408 by toomanytribbles on August 30, 2007 at 12:19 am

 avatar
ask yourself, when even the doubts of experts are thought to confirm a doctrine, what could possibly disconfirm it?

-sam harris,
the sacrifice of reason

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7. Comment #66412 by The author on August 30, 2007 at 12:45 am

 avatar"He refers to believers as "faith sufferers", and to himself and like-minded associates as "we doctors"."

Cornwell would have pretty much deserved this quotation to be correct, which it is not, as he uses the same old argumentation strategies theologians always have used. I only doubt that such a mean-spirited and deluded thinking can be healed that easily.

"Stalin attempted, in vain, to eliminate religionists by working them to death or hanging them. Hitler starved and gassed them."

Yet another example. I am convinced that Cornwell knows exactly why this wicked attempt of an ad hoc denunciation is not fitting. Here we see that he doesn't even want to know the truth, he only wants to destroy his enemies.

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8. Comment #66415 by roach on August 30, 2007 at 12:54 am

Oh it's not "faith". It's "doubt of doubt". This make so much sense! Can I say skepticism is actually "doubt of doubt of doubt"?

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9. Comment #66417 by Johan on August 30, 2007 at 1:06 am

"But it shows that even the most dogmatic of the world's religions, if encouraged, can discover a latent propensity towards pluralism in the ideal of non-judgmental universal love."

Even if we were to concede that that statement is true, it only took the church about 1500 years to accept pluralism. Hardly an argument for the open mindedness and "positive" doubt of the church.


Weigh that against some 300 years of progress since the enlightenment and the claim becomes ridiculous.

Cheers
/Johan

Other Comments by Johan

10. Comment #66423 by steveroot on August 30, 2007 at 1:21 am

 avatarHere's a link to another piece by a theologian, Andrew Greeley:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/greeley/532056,CST-EDT-GREEL29.article
(Just in case Josh didn't get the link I sent him. I think there is divine interference here! ;-) )
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

11. Comment #66427 by Flagellant on August 30, 2007 at 1:41 am

 avatarThere are other calumnies and misrepresentations in Cornwell's piece, besides that mentioned by RD (comment 2). For example, Hitler didn't bump people off exclusively for their religious beliefs; he also wanted to eliminate homosexuals, gypsies and those less than perfectly Aryan. He was far more obsessed with racial purity than belief.

But the insistance that "…Dawkins is inviting fundamentalists to be even more fundamentalist" is ridiculous and offensive. The implication of this is: if we don't oppose fundamentalism vigorously, it won't get any worse. Well, the UK tried that in 1989 over Salman Rushdie and look where that got us! Only now are we beginning to take a more robust approach, e.g. by prosecuting those who incite murder in the name of their religion.

Finally, there are many things that would seem to give the lie to Cornwell's ridiculous misrepresentation of Dawkins's message as: "…if you go to church, synagogue, mosque or temple only once a year, you are just as liable to perpetrate fanatical deeds on the basis of faith as an al-Qaida terrorist." Examples are the 'Atheists for Jesus' movement (http://richarddawkins.net/article,20,Atheists-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins) and RD's relationship, and fellow-feeling with Richard Harries, former Bishop of Oxford.

It's interesting that Cornwell 'returned queasily to Christianity'. Hmmm…




Religion – an activity for consenting adults in private.

Other Comments by Flagellant

12. Comment #66429 by Clappers on August 30, 2007 at 1:52 am

"The shocking aspect of this notion is its depersonalisation, reinforced in an alarming chapter which claims that Jews, and indeed Jesus Christ, did not teach love thy neighbour as thyself and that the 10 commandments - including thou shalt not kill - applied only within the Jewish group."

Is it shocking that some people actually read the bible and find this

Numbers 21:1-3 God utterly destroyed the Canaanites at Hormah as a favor to the Jews.
Numbers 21:27-35 God abetted Moses in utterly destroying the Amorites at Heshbon - "…the men, the women, and the little ones."
Numbers 31:17-18 God commands Moses to kill all the Medianite people including children and women. To top it off he commands that the virgins be saved for later raping by Moses' soldiers.
Deuteronomy 3:3-7 God ordered Moses' army to "utterly destroy" 60 cities, killing all the women and children within!
Deuteronomy 7:12 God ordered the Israelites to kill all the people of seven nations. He even adds, "show no mercy unto them".
Deuteronomy 20:16 God orders that we kill everything that breathes in the cities that he gives us for an inheritance

Other Comments by Clappers

13. Comment #66432 by hungarianelephant on August 30, 2007 at 2:08 am

 avatar
Put bluntly, The God Delusion is liable to persuade religious fundamentalists that a pluralist secular society is every bit as hostile to the practice of faith as they ever thought it to be ...

OK. Maybe.
... By urging the elimination of religion in the name of all that civil society holds dear, Dawkins is inviting fundamentalists to be even more fundamentalist.

Huh? How exactly does this follow? If Cornwell wanted to argue that insisting that moderate religion was bad because it pushes moderates into the fundamentalist camp, I'd understand, if not agree. But he doesn't argue this. Instead he says it will make the fundies more fundie, without explaining why.

I think I see what is going on here. Dawkins => makes the world a more dangerous place => please shut up about atheism.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

14. Comment #66433 by Richard Morgan on August 30, 2007 at 2:09 am

 avatarI really loved this article and the comments it has provoked.
It's all so silly, isn't it?
Imagine this sort of discussion a few centuries ago, ok?
There is a symbolic, poetic, metaphorical sense in which the sun really does revolve around the earth. And this is very meaningful and comforting to millions of people.
But Galilawkins nourishes a disturbing contempt for geocentrists.
He asserts: "I do everything in my power to warn people against geocentricism itself, not just against so-called 'extremist' geocentricism."

Need I continue...?
Don't worry folks, it will take time and education. The Emperor's "New suit of clothes" won't keep him warm for long when the cruel winds of reason and reality start howling around his goolies. And even then, some will refuse to see his hairy bum!
But that's the way it happens, I guess.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

15. Comment #66434 by Corylus on August 30, 2007 at 2:09 am

 avatarWell, waded through that.

Anything worthy? (I always try to be fair) I have to give points for grammar, vocabulary and spelling but that's as far as it goes.

Overall, misrepresentative and frankly nasty.

I'm a natural cynic and I try not to let that cloud my judgement, but I believe the very last line is telling....
· John Cornwell is director of the Science and Human Dimension Project at Jesus College, Cambridge. His book Darwin's Angel: An Angelic Riposte to the God Delusion is published in hardback by Profile on September 6, priced £9.99.

Plug, plug, plug ....

Other Comments by Corylus

16. Comment #66438 by BAEOZ on August 30, 2007 at 2:14 am

 avatarI didn't finish the article. Seemed a waste of my only life.......I'd rather drink wine and read something educational. Now where's that playboy?

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17. Comment #66452 by Prufrock on August 30, 2007 at 2:59 am

There are so many misunderstandings, errors and downright lies in this article that I'm not even going to bother to get deep with it. The author's interpretation of the relationship between belief and doubt are confused. Graham Greene, great writer that he was, does not have authenticity instincts greater than those of anyone else. His take on what science says about racial hygiene and lamarkism is more about social darwinism than about real evidence based science... Oh I could go on and on and on and find so many things not to trust in this article. If faith is a journey whose path is lined with doubt, mysticism and symbolism, then it is also a journey without evidence, facts, hypotheses and imagination and we all know where that leads to.... nothing and nowhere. Much like where this article leads.

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18. Comment #66461 by pewkatchoo on August 30, 2007 at 3:38 am

 avatarWhat a terrible article. Start off with a strawman then a non-sequitir and continue on downhill thereafter. I have read some rubbish from the religites before but this one encompasses every trick in the book.

As soon as they start talking about Stalin and Hitler, you just know they are going to talk rubbish. And so it was.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

19. Comment #66463 by pewkatchoo on August 30, 2007 at 3:46 am

 avatarI don't credit believers with the capacity to be pluralists either. That is a false premise. The simple fact is that they are given no choice in the matter and that is the way that it should be. In UK society tolerance is forced on the religious by unambiguous laws, and even that doesn't always work, otherwise they would be as intolerant as they could get away with.

Secularity has put the breaks on bigotry and intolerance. The enlightenment happened in spite of religion, not because of it. We should never allow these people to forget this.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

20. Comment #66471 by kizumoto on August 30, 2007 at 4:29 am

I got as far as, "Stalin attempted, in vain, to eliminate religionists by working them to death or hanging them. Hitler starved and gassed them".
I thought Stalin tried to eliminate anone who he imagined threatened his power, many of whom were communists.
And Hitler mainly gassed Jews of all kinds; not just the religious ones."
I will never know if the rest of the article was equally dumb.

Other Comments by kizumoto

21. Comment #66487 by wim_vandenberghe on August 30, 2007 at 5:50 am

1.
From the article: "It is not religion alone and of itself that leads to fundamentalism and its social consequences, but an insistence from any ideological source that only one set of convictions should prevail."

John Cornwell here implies that Richard Dawkins is guilty of the same dogmatism, i.e. that only his set of convictions should prevail. But Richard Dawkins's 'set of convictions' is exactly that no one set of convictions should prevail: doubt, skepticism, curiosity, falsifiability, etc. should be the norm. That is profoundly different from religion (or Stalin for that matter).

2.
From the article: "Dawkins claims, however, that religious believers deserve neither respect nor rights in any circumstances."

I think Richard Dawkins does not say this. I think what he says is that they deserve no more respect than anything or anyone else.

3. John Cornwell jumps from RD's theories about religious memes and the viral analogy to the race theories of the Nazi regime, which is so intellectually dishonest. The Nazi regime believed that certain people were the virus and should therefore be killed. All Richard Dawkins is saying is that certain obsolete ideas permeate society and history and that these ideas should be countered with better ideas.

4. Finally, and this is more of a general remark about how Richard Dawkins engages religious apologists, I think RD (and other prominent atheists) should concentrate more on epistomology and less on deontology when it comes to dicussing religion. The religious apologists have a harder time defending the truth aspects of their respective brands of religion and therefore (like Cornwell) try to steer the discussion toward deontology: the evil that people do in the name of religion AND other ideologies like Stalin's and Hitler's to "prove" that they're the same. (That's where I also think Steven Weinberg's comment about it taking religion for good people to do bad things is lacking. More precise would be to say that "It takes sufficient indoctrination for good people to do bad things".)
I think in future Richard Dawkins should make an effort to confront religious apologists with the truth claims their religions make and in how far they hold these beliefs or are guilty of cherry-picking their holy books. This would be much harder to defend than the arguments about the evils that religion causes. I recommend Julia Sweeney's approach.

It's the first time I've ever posted anything, so I hope I've been sufficiently clear in formulating myself. Do with it what you will.

WV

Other Comments by wim_vandenberghe

22. Comment #66496 by Alison on August 30, 2007 at 6:12 am

...he simply does not get the point of pluralist societies under secular auspices.

Dawkins entirely "gets" the point of pluralist societies under secular auspices. The key phrase here is "under secular auspices". As opposed to "under religious auspices." Dawkins argues passionately for "secular auspices". The problem is that so many religious authorities refuse to submit to any other authority, like the authority of reason, for example.

Dawkins is as reluctant... to accept that much of the content of religious faith is metaphorical, poetic and symbolic rather than factual in a scientific sense.

The *only* value of religious faith is metaphorical, poetic and symbolic. "Much"? More like "most if not all." Religious faith has no merit in the factual, scientific sense. But religious leaders fail to maintain their authority on metaphor and symbolism. People want actual bread and actual wine and actual freedom. If religions presented themselves upfront as inherently metaphorical, and subject to "secular auspices", we would have far fewer problems with religion in our world.

Other Comments by Alison

23. Comment #66516 by AntonAAK on August 30, 2007 at 7:33 am

Richard Morgan


Imagine this sort of discussion a few centuries ago, ok?

There is a symbolic, poetic, metaphorical sense in which the sun really does revolve around the earth. And this is very meaningful and comforting to millions of people.

But Galilawkins nourishes a disturbing contempt for geocentrists.

He asserts: "I do everything in my power to warn people against geocentricism itself, not just against so-called 'extremist' geocentricism."


This is a very good point, extremely well put.

I'll certainly be quoting it in future discussions with those who cling to the belief that ancient views and traditions have their own inherent value.

Please don't consider this 'hero-worship' though. ;-)

Other Comments by AntonAAK

24. Comment #66517 by Dr Benway on August 30, 2007 at 7:35 am

 avatarwim_vandenberghe:
I think RD (and other prominent atheists) should concentrate more on epistomology and less on deontology when it comes to dicussing religion.
I think you're right. Dawkins does this in TGD at the outset, by pointing to "Einsteinian religion" or pantheism, or deism, and making clear he's not concerned with these positions. But the point seems lost on many reviewers. Perhaps it's eclipsed by the "ultimate Boeing 747," which challenges the notion of a creator-God generally, whether the interventionist God of traditional religion or not.

The weakness of the "ultimate 747" argument is time. The notion of first cause melts into absurd self-reference when time is the thing being created.

Parsimony remains an argument against a creator-God as opposed to a spontaneous universe without God. But it's a weak argument. We can't weigh the complexity of an hypothesis for a spontaneous universe, when we really haven't worked out the mechanics of it.

Deism is as reasonable as atheism. It's fair to concede that. And I think it's in our interests to do so, as it allows us to move the conversation away from abstract, metaphysical arguments for or against God, to matters of evidence. We're not opposed to a God who doesn't act; we're opposed to the notion of an interventionist God, as we've seen no evidence for these alleged interventions that couldn't be explained by natural causes.

I don't know about you all, but I'm sick to death of the endless language games theologians play in realms unfettered by ordinary questions of evidence. I'd like to say, "I've conceded that there might be a creator-God. You're explaining to me your evidence for John Smith as His true prophet, rather than Mohammad, or the Dalai Lama, or Sai Baba. So... let's have it."

Other Comments by Dr Benway

25. Comment #66519 by fides_et_ratio on August 30, 2007 at 8:07 am

2. Comment #66393 by Richard Dawkins on August 29, 2007 at 11:28 pm

In his defense, perhaps he didn't realise it was a joke due to the lack of any apparent hilarity in the statement. To be fair, it doesn't seem particularly amusing.

Also, I read an article a few months ago where John Cornwall was taking you to task for deliberately misquoting him in your book. If I remember correctly, his case was more compelling than you own.

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26. Comment #66521 by Quetzalcoatl on August 30, 2007 at 8:22 am

 avatarIt's irony, Fides.

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27. Comment #66522 by Russell's Teapot on August 30, 2007 at 8:47 am

 avatarPerhaps he didn't realize it was irony due to the lack of any apparent sense of humor. To be fair, he seems rather dull.

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28. Comment #66525 by Theocrapcy on August 30, 2007 at 9:01 am

 avatarI got as far as "Stalin".

Next.

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29. Comment #66527 by robotaholic on August 30, 2007 at 9:23 am

 avatarI fail to see his point anywhere. You would think people would quit using Stalin and Hitler as examples of anything anymore as murder is usually performed by the the pathalogical whereas the inquisition and other religious atrocities were performed by leages of people all with the same religious mindvirus. He also misspelled recognize in the 5th paragraph on the top line.

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30. Comment #66528 by Ken on August 30, 2007 at 9:39 am

It should be remembered that only a very few of the negative reviews have attempted to connect with the arguments of the book. For apologists the most important task is not to answer criticism but to dissuade their co-religionists from picking the book up in the first place. Hence actually giving an accurate account of the book's contents is not particularly high on their list of priorities.

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31. Comment #66530 by jthacker48 on August 30, 2007 at 9:43 am

 avatar"While his book has no doubt offered encouragement to convinced atheists, there is scant evidence that he is discouraging even the lukewarm believers, let alone enthusiasts."

I've heard this statement before and while it may be true for the majority of readers. My bestfriend, my wife, and I have all changed our views of religion based on The God Delusion. The book started us on a journey of really looking into things. All 3 of us were very devout believers prior to me starting to read the book. Since, I've become an athiest. My wife and friend are both having major faith struggles based on the arguments presented in these books. Because of these books, they are willing to admit the fallacy in their previous thoughts and eliminate some of the dogma in their beliefs. I don't believe that I'm alone in the fact that my life was changed by the book(s).

www.jeremythacker.com

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32. Comment #66532 by Philip1978 on August 30, 2007 at 10:23 am

 avatarjthacker48

Congratulations on your decision, I have heard stories of how difficult it is to give up a faith, I have heard a lot from people here on this site and I understand its not the easiest choice to make. Would it be ok if I asked what exactly was it that finally convinced you to make your decision?


Fides, I am sorry you feel that way

Cheers, Philip

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33. Comment #66536 by stevencarrwork on August 30, 2007 at 10:38 am

Cornwell writes an article about Dawkins and he produces comparisons to Hitler and Stalin.

Reality check - Dawkins has written a book.

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34. Comment #66541 by Richard Dawkins on August 30, 2007 at 11:01 am

25. Comment #66519 by fides_et_ratio on August 30, 2007 at 8:07 am

In his defense, perhaps he didn't realise it was a joke due to the lack of any apparent hilarity in the statement. To be fair, it doesn't seem particularly amusing.

Also, I read an article a few months ago where John Cornwall was taking you to task for deliberately misquoting him in your book. If I remember correctly, his case was more compelling than you own.


No, I don't think you do remember correctly. Your memory and your judgment of what is compelling are as flawed as your sense of irony and your spelling (his name is Cornwell not Cornwall). I cannot have deliberately misquoted John Cornwell because I have never quoted him, or even mentioned him, in any of my books.

Richard

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35. Comment #66544 by Elli on August 30, 2007 at 11:19 am

 avatarPwned!

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36. Comment #66545 by Bonzai on August 30, 2007 at 11:24 am

Cornwell's piece seems to be populated by straw men.

I caught this by just randomly scrolling up and down:

Dawkins claims, however, that religious believers deserve neither respect nor rights in any circumstances.


Dawkins claims that religious beliefs do not deserve respect and special treatments in society. It is very dishonest to change "religious beliefs", which are ideologies to "religious believers" who are people.To say that a group of people deserve no right conjures up images of gulags and reeducation camps, this is the misleading impression Cornwell attempted to create with his misrepresentation.


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37. Comment #66548 by Dr Benway on August 30, 2007 at 11:30 am

 avatarfides_et_ratio is Latin for "I know Latin."

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38. Comment #66549 by Quetzalcoatl on August 30, 2007 at 11:34 am

 avatarPerhaps he should change his name to the Latin for: "I just got TOLD by Dawkins". Dr Benway, don't suppose you know what that phrase would be?

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39. Comment #66552 by Corylus on August 30, 2007 at 11:50 am

 avatar
fides_et_ratio is Latin for "I know Latin."

Whilst ... Caput tuum in ano est is latin for... well pretty much what Richard just said.

Or maybe... Futue te ipsum et caballum tuum.

Little snippets from my Latin for all Occasions book - who said it wouldn't come in handy.

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40. Comment #66553 by danceswithanxiety on August 30, 2007 at 11:51 am

 avatar
And yet, Dawkins is as reluctant as any evangelical fundamentalist to recognise the importance of an element of doubt, or doubt of doubt, in religious faith, or to accept that much of the content of religious faith is metaphorical, poetic and symbolic rather than factual in a scientific sense.

This is laughable. Dawkins does not argue against the existence of poetry or metaphors or symbols, but against the existence of god.

If Cornwell thinks Dawkins, in The God Delusion and in other writings, does not value the importance of doubt (relentless skepticism & self-questioning), then he has failed a most basic test of reading comprehension and should try again.

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41. Comment #66555 by troyreynolds86 on August 30, 2007 at 11:58 am

Hitler and Stalin again!

Stalin suppressed the Russian Orthodox Church (amoung others) until such time as they no longer had a control over the people that could challenge that of the Party and then, after the Church swore allegiance to him, he allowed it to have some amount of power back, though eternally limited.

Hitler didn't kill Jews for religious reasons, he killed them for racial reasons and for economic/social/political reasons. His wasn't a relgious war against people or else he wouldn't have been gassing people for merely having a bit of Jewish blood in them.

As for how Hilter and Stalin were able to get otherwise perfectly well adjusted young German and Russian men to commit such attrocities was a blended mix of FAITH in the dominant politic, the immense threat of death and torture for those who lacked faith by means of oppression, miseducation, propaganda, torture, murder and imprisonment. Now, I wonder, which organization is it that really perfected that system? Something about Rome and Pope is coming to mind.

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42. Comment #66558 by Dr Benway on August 30, 2007 at 12:05 pm

 avatarQuetz, fides is trolling for rude replies. One wonders why. To prove that atheists are angry, militant, or ill-behaved? To signify... what? That God exists?

The Big Book of Atheism lists no rules regarding:
- eating bacon
- drinking alcohol
- rubbing your naughty bits
- genocide
- netiquette
- taking the bait
- not taking the bait

Clearly, advice re: the piss taking of trolls must arise from a source other than the BBA.

If I remember correctly, Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot also consulted the Big Book of Atheism for guidance during difficult times. Not finding "genocide" in the index nor the table of contents, each derided the BBA as useless crap not worth the paper.

Dawkins apparently missed the humor of "If I remember correctly," which everyone knows is an old college dorm drinking game. For the professor's benefit, I'll explain: You say, "If I remember correctly," then finish the sentence with something nearly plausible. If anyone doesn't believe you, you say, "My mistake," and take a drink.

Best to play with skeptics if you're thirsty.

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43. Comment #66606 by walk on August 30, 2007 at 3:22 pm

 avatarC'mon fides, exactly where and in which book did Professor Dawkins quote Cornwell? (Richard, thanks for the clarification).

Isn't it curious that Cornwell never gives any specific reasons for "queasily returning to Christianity"?

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44. Comment #66607 by dhweaver on August 30, 2007 at 3:23 pm

 avatarComment #66525 by Theocrapcy on August 30, 2007 at 9:01 am

"I got as far as "Stalin".

Next."

Hilarious!

I'm sure there are many other keywords which should make us say "Next".

Unfortunately, I read as far as "John Cornwell is director of the Science and Human Dimension Project at Jesus College". That's 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. Someone at RichardDawkins.net should warn us with some kind of huge sign "Warning! What you are about to read is babblings from a Flea."

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45. Comment #66615 by Lauregon on August 30, 2007 at 3:42 pm

(most Christians outside the American bible belt do not take the book of Genesis literally). - Cornwell



All of Christian theology and doctrine is based upon the Genesis account of a "fall" from "God's" grace in the Garden of Eden. I think it was Elizabeth Cady Stanton, of "The Woman's Bible," who said something to the effect: Take away the "fall" and there's no need for a savior or Christianity.

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46. Comment #66618 by zarcus on August 30, 2007 at 3:46 pm

 avatarWhile I don't agree with much in John Cornwell's piece, the history of Soviet suppression is valuable. The problem, as illustrated here, is it becomes easy to dismiss the lessons because of the false assumptions made by religionist who make sweeping generalizations about historic figures.

For a more complete treatment of the Soviet's attempts to suppress religion, I would recommend Paul Gabel's work.

Here is an essay by Gabel that is presented by the Skeptic's Society.

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-05-30.html

.

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47. Comment #66633 by Inferno on August 30, 2007 at 5:29 pm

 avatar
Dawkins is as reluctant as any evangelical fundamentalist to recognise the importance of an element of doubt, or doubt of doubt, in religious faith, or to accept that much of the content of religious faith is metaphorical, poetic and symbolic rather than factual in a scientific sense. He is convinced that faith is in all circumstances absolute, seamless, literal.


Wow! Talk about completely missing the message! Dawkins is ALL about doubt. That's why we need EVIDENCE. Doubt something until the evidence says otherwise. And the evidence is firmly against all the established religions.

And Dawkins has NEVER claimed that religion is all literal. In fact, something he continually asks is on what basis do religious people decide what in their sacred texts should be taken literally and what is merely mataphorical. The answer to this goes to the very question of morals and the justification to religion.

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48. Comment #66641 by Yorker on August 30, 2007 at 6:59 pm

 avatar"John Cornwell struggled with his faith for two decades before finally returning to Christianity"

What a waste of decades! Sorry Mr. Cornwell, death is a fact and it really is the end, that is why religion is still around, you need its false comfort because you are unable to face the truth. As the life of humanity lengthens the life of religion shortens, sooner or later wishful thinking must die. I'd advise you to stop wasting your life writing useless text against those who have the courage to accept their life will end.

The most important thing Dawkins offers is not atheism, he more importantly tries to get people to value the only life they'll ever have and to make the most of it. A person taking this to heart is likely to be a far better contributor to humanity than one who wastes their life in the forlorn hope that magic will save the day for them, a sentiment whose very nature is selfish, demeaning and detrimental to humanity.

Try reality, it can be fun!

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49. Comment #66643 by Inferno on August 30, 2007 at 7:32 pm

 avatar
"John Cornwell struggled with his faith for two decades before finally returning to Christianity"


Why is whenever we hear of a religious person who struggled with their faith, they always seem to return to the faith they started off with? If it was a genuine struggle with questioning and doubt, shouldn't some of these former christians become Hindus or Sikhs or Zoroastrians?

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50. Comment #66645 by BAEOZ on August 30, 2007 at 7:48 pm

 avatarRD:
I cannot have deliberately misquoted John Cornwell because I have never quoted him, or even mentioned him, in any of my books.
mat
That's really gotta burn Fides. Sorry, I'm probably seeming all gooey eyed!

Hey Fides, you still clinging to the trinity, as taught by the Catholic church? Or have you become honest and accepted it's logically flawed? Just in case you have any doubts as to why it's flawed:

God is the father , son and holy spirit . Thus, god is identical with the father, and god is identical with the son and god is identical with holy spirit. All good?
Now, the trinity states that there are 3 different persons in the godhead which means that the father isn't identical with son and the father isn't identical with holy spirit and the holy spirit isn't identical with the previous 2. That just contradicted the first two sentences which stated that god was those 3 persons. If god is identical with father and identical with son at same time, the father must be the son and so on with other combinations of the 3. It's violates the law identity to say they are distinct persons.
If you say that identity doesn't matter, then nothing in this world is reliable, because arithmetic and logic can't work without identity.
I wonder if you'll be honest and say that the trinity, as taught to catholics and probably all christians, is not logically possible.

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