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Monday, September 3, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document In God we doubt

by John Humphrys, Times Online

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2367028.ece

He went looking for God and ended up an angry agnostic – unable to believe but enraged by the arrogance of militant atheists. It's hard to see the purpose of the world, he says, but don't blame its evils on religion

I still recall the exact times and places when the Big Questions declared themselves to my childish consciousness. The first arrived when I was in short trousers and knew even less than I know today.

I had been playing with some friends on a disused aerodrome near my home in Cardiff. We used the abandoned carcasses of old aircraft to attack the squadrons of imaginary German bombers droning above us in the darkening sky. When we had wiped them out, my friends went home for tea. I hung around. It was one of those days when my mother, a hairdresser who worked from home, was giving a perm to a neighbour and I hated the stench of the chemicals.

By now it was dark. The glory of the night sky had yet to be lost to light pollution and on cloudless nights the stars went on for ever. That was what troubled me. How could they go on for ever? And if the universe was everything, what was it all in? And how could it be in anything because that would have to be in something else and . . . and . . . and so on. And what was there before any of it existed? And how did it all come into existence? And finally – the really, really Big Question – why?

The other Big Question came to me at about the same age. I was on a bus returning from our week's holiday in Aberyst-wyth. I hated buses. I was always sick on them. It was while I was hanging over the platform at the back that I discovered mortality. For the first time in my short life I realised that one day I would die.

Once again the question was: why? What was the point of being born if all there was to look forward to was dying? For the length of that ghastly journey and into the next day, everything seemed completely and utterly pointless. Then the normal service of childhood was resumed and it went away. But it came back. Questions like that always do.

It took me a few more years to grasp that rather a lot of people were worrying about their own versions of the Big Questions and had been for quite a long time.

The 17th-century philosopher Blaise Pascal described the predicament of those who do not know ". . . why I am set down here rather than elsewhere, nor why the brief period appointed for my life is assigned to me at this moment rather than another in all the eternity that has gone before and will come after me. On all sides I behold nothing but infinity, in which I am a mere atom, a mere passing shadow that returns no more. All I know is that I must die soon, but what I understand least of all is this very death which I cannot escape".

Pascal did not come to believe in a personal God until his early thirties. I was one of the many whose questions were answered by the church right from the beginning. There was no question of my not going to church. That's what we did in my family.

At 15 I left school to work on a local newspaper and then, two years later, left home to work for a bigger paper in the Welsh valleys. It was then that I stopped going to church. Saturday night was pub-crawl night, which meant that Sunday morning was spent recovering. But in any case I realised that going to church was a meaningless exercise. I was bored by the ritualised responses, by priests who seemed to have nothing to say, by my own failure to be genuinely moved by any of it.

Yet I continued to pray. I prayed every single night without fail for half a century. The problem was that I had absolutely no notion of the God to whom I was supposed to be praying or, for that matter, why I was praying. Did I really think my prayers would make any difference? I doubt it. So, if I was getting nothing out of it and neither were the people I was praying for, why was I bothering? Mostly, I wanted to believe. I envied friends with an apparently solid faith their certainties and the comfort their faith appeared to bring them.

My years as a reporter and foreign correspondent took their toll. I was not much more than a boy when I watched the miners of Aberfan digging for the bodies of their children after the coal tip crushed their school. A few years later I was watching weeping mothers trying to free the bodies of their children from the ruins of houses wrecked by an earthquake in Nicaragua. In various African countries I have seen children, all hope gone from their blank and staring eyes, slowly starving to death. In divided countries all over the world I have seen the bodies of young men horribly mutilated by other young men for no other reason than that they belonged to the wrong tribe or religion.

In war zones I have listened to soldiers – ordinary people like you and me, with their own children to love and care for – justify the slaughter of other entirely innocent human beings, other children.

And over and over again I was asking myself the other Big Question, one that would not have occurred to the innocent little boy on the aerodrome: where was God?

My spiritual journey – if that's not too high-falutin' a notion – took me from my childish Big Questions to my ultimate failure to find any corresponding Big Answers. I have ended up – so far, at any rate – as a doubter. It's clear that I'm far from alone.

In almost half a century of journalism I have never had such a response to anything I have written or broadcast as I did to last year's Radio 4 series Humphrys in Search of God. The letters arrived by the sackful. It felt a bit like putting my fingers on the religious pulse of the nation; and the pulse is still strong. However empty the pews may be there are plenty of people with a sincere and passionate belief. There are also plenty of people who think it's all a load of nonsense.

What surprised me is how many think of themselves as neither believers nor atheists but doubters. They, too, are sincere. Devout sceptics, if you like. And many of them feel beleaguered. I'm with them. SINCE starting to write my book, I have fallen into the habit of asking almost everyone I meet if they believe in God. And here's the interesting thing: it was only the atheists who seemed absolutely certain.

Of course, this proves nothing: it's purely anecdotal and statistically worthless. But let me try to sum up the attitude of those militant atheists who seem to hold believers in contempt:

1. Believers are mostly naive or stupid. Or, at least, they're not as clever as atheists.

2. The few clever ones are pathetic because they need a crutch to get them through life.

3.They are also pathetic because they can't accept the finality of death.

4.They have been brainwashed into believing. There is no such thing as a "Christian child", for instance – just a child whose parents have had her baptised.

5.They have been bullied into believing.

6. If we don't wipe out religious belief by next Thursday week, civilisation as we know it is doomed.

7 Trust me: I'm an atheist. I make no apology if I have oversimplified their views with that little list: it's what they do to believers all the time.

So let's answer each of those points:

1. This is so clearly untrue it's barely worth bothering with. Richard Dawkins, in his bestselling The God Delusion, was reduced to producing a "study" by Mensa that purported to show an inverse relationship between intelligence and belief. He also claimed that only a very few members of the Royal Society believe in a personal god. So what? Some believers are undoubtedly stupid (witness the creationists) but I've met one or two atheists I wouldn't trust to change a lightbulb.

2. Don't we all? Some use booze rather than the Bible. It doesn't prove anything about either.

3. Maybe, but it doesn't mean they're wrong. Count the number of atheists in the foxholes or the cancer wards.

4. True, and many children reject it when they get older. But many others stay with it.

5. This is also true in many cases but you can't actually bully someone into believing – just into pretending to believe.

6. Of course the mad mullahs are dangerous and extreme Islamism is a threat to be taken seriously. But we've survived monotheist religion for 4,000 years or so, and I can think of one or two other things that are a greater threat to civilisation.

7. Why? For those of us who are neither believers nor atheists it can be very difficult. Doubters are left in the deeply unsatisfactory position of finding the existence of God unprovable and implausible, and the comfort of faith unachievable. But at the same time we find the reality of belief undeniable.

It's bad enough being a failed Christian – sneered at by atheists and believers. It's even worse being what I suppose you could call someone like me – a failed atheist. Or maybe it's not. That's what Giles Fraser has been calling himself for years and he happens to be an Anglican vicar.

Here's his own description of himself when he was younger: "a bolshy kid who discovered Marx at school and gave myself over to it hook, line and sinker". During the miners' strike in the mid1980s he realised what a sham it all was – "a privileged public schoolboy like me playing at politics", as he told me. His "faith" in Marx-ism collapsed but he remained an atheist.

It was his interest in atheism that made him take religion seriously. He did his PhD on Nietzsche, and theology became "a sort of hobby". He immersed himself in the great theologians and, after years of looking into theology from the outside, he discovered that he was on the inside looking out. He realised that he believed in God. He seems genuinely puzzled by it.

There are many like him in the Anglican Church who share his scorn (if not contempt) for the more traditional approach to Christianity. He is embarrassed by "stupid" Christians thinking they know more about the nature of the universe than clever atheists like Dawkins. Ask him to prove that God exists – one of the subjects of his philosophy lectures at Oxford – and he cheerfully admits that he can't. He goes further: "The so-called proofs of God's existence are all rubbish."

Ask him if the resurrection of Jesus Christ really happened and he says: "Umm . . . dunno . . . can't prove it."

Ask him about evangelical Christians and he snorts: "Evangelicals have misunderstood the Bible. They turn it into some bloody Ikea manual."

Ask him to sum up the state of battle between militant believers and militant atheists and he says: "Atheists have the best arguments, which makes belief such a precarious thing."

In hours of conversation over the kitchen table I have tried hard to pick a proper argument with him about theology – he teaches it – but I have failed. That's partly because he freely acknowledges that theology is not some sort of intellectual platform on which faith can be built. He quotes Augustine: theology is "faith seeking understanding" – which means you get your faith first and then try to make sense of it. And faith is not a belief that certain propositions about the world are true. It is not grounded in rational argument and neither is there any good line of reasoning that can persuade one to believe. Belief just isn't like that, says Fraser. So what is it like? Why does a believer believe?

What's interesting is that you get much the same answer to that question whether it comes from a philosopher/vicar like Giles Fraser or a theo-logian/archbishop like Rowan Williams or an old lady who has never read a book on theology in her life and wouldn't know the difference between an ontological argument and a pork pie. Why should she? Theology, as Fraser says, is not the foundation of faith.

The Archbishop of Canterbury and the little old lady might use a different vocabulary to try to explain why they believe, but it comes to the same thing in the end. They believe because they believe. This is not about intellect or learning: it's more basic than that. It is both more profound and more simple.

I suspect that on the most primitive level it is not all that different from the little scrap of blanket that so many small children rely on. They need it whenever they get tired or life looks a bit threatening.

I invite you to imagine the impossibly grand figure of the Archbishop of Canterbury sitting on the steps of his cathedral with his thumb stuck in his mouth, stroking his bearded cheek with the little bit of satin at the edge of his comfort blanket.

This image may not do a great deal for the dignity of the primate's office, but the comfort blanket is not a million miles away from what religion offers at its most simplistic. Strip from Christianity the notion of proof, evidence and historical events (or nonevents) and what drives belief has little to do with the head and a great deal to do with the heart.

Many atheists, as my list suggests, say that people believe because of the way they were brought up: children are credulous and accept what they are told. As they grow older they get rid of their comfort blankets and often the beliefs with which they were inculcated. But not everyone does that – and even those who do may return to belief, in one form or another, in later life.

There remains what the atheist philosopher AC Grayling calls "the lingering splinter in the mind . . . a sense of yearning for the absolute". There is a profound longing for something that will stimulate and satisfy emotionally and spiritually.

Grayling and other atheists understand that longing perfectly well, but what puzzles them is why it cannot be satisfied by pottering about in the garden, a walk in the hills, watching a sunset, listening to a piece of great music. Yet that misses the point.

Believers may very well find comfort and solace in all those things but where atheists are wrong is in failing to recognise and understand that most believers want something else as well. It is hard to talk to Christians about religion without them eventually using the word "love".

Grayling co-wrote the play On Religion in which a lead character is loosely based on Giles Fraser. One of his main scenes is taken from Fraser's own life.

He told me about it: "The night before I got married my brother sat me down in an Indian restaurant and (too many beers) got me to make a list on a napkin of why this girl was the right person for me to marry. One side of the napkin had all the pros and the other side the cons.

"What was fascinating about the list was that nothing I could write down – kind, pretty, warm, sexy, etc – could ever add up to "I love her". To marry and make the love commitment is the nearest thing to faith I know because it is something done with the same degree of risk.

"Would a person who needed everything fully evidenced and rationally demonstrated ever be in a position to say, 'I love you'? Couldn't a Dawkins-type figure make a case for love being a fiction, a function of human need, a function of biology and selfish genes? He may have many useful and persuasive things to say but there is something deeply mistaken about thinking love is simply reducible to the chemistry of the brain.

"Love, like faith, is to make more of a commitment than one can prove. But there is a truth to it that I won't – indeed can't – back away from. Of course, there is much to say about all of this and I can think of a dozen reasons why faith and love might look different. But the truth of both is, for me, found in the poetry, not in the science."

Militant atheists seem to have enormous difficulty in understanding why so many people – many of them just as clever as they are – manage to live by their beliefs. Here's what Dawkins told Laurie Taylor in New Humanist magazine: "I don't know what it would mean to say that we live by faith in our daily life. There is, I suppose, a sense that we are sometimes too busy to reason everything out, but otherwise I don't know what it means."

It seems to me that he misses the point entirely. It's not necessarily that people are too busy to reason things out. It's more that they don't want to. They want to believe. In spite of the terrible things that have been done in the name of God over the millennia, religious belief brings immeasurable comfort.

Personally, I do not accept the divinity of Jesus. I do not believe that his mother was made pregnant by the Holy Ghost, that he was resurrected after his death on the cross, or that he physically ascended to heaven. But that belief enriches the lives of many.

It does not make them stupid, let alone deluded. It makes them human. Their faith gives them a context into which they can fit their lives and a hope of better things to come – if not in this world, then the next. And if the next world turns out not to exist . . . well, they'll never know, will they? I HAVE talked to many people about God – eminent theologians, historians, scientists, clerics – but let me finish with a woman called Mrs Buchanan. You'll never have heard of her and I can't give you her first name because I knew her in the days when children did not call adults by their first names. Even my mother called her Mrs Buchanan or Mrs B. Her life, I now realise, was sad. The one thing she and her husband wanted above everything else was children, and that was not to be. There was no IVF in the 1950s.

My own mother had five children. There was often very little money and sometimes she struggled to cope. Mrs B was always there to help. She was a stalwart of the Mothers' Union at our local church and she regarded it as her duty. Monday was washing day, and every Monday afternoon she would turn up – her hat pinned firmly to her hair – to help with the ironing. The hat stayed on. Outside her own home I never saw her without it.

Mr and Mrs Buchanan were an unremarkable couple – quiet, honest, decent, God-fearing. They worked hard – I have his old teak toolbox beside the desk in my office to this day – and made no demands of anyone. The church was an important part of their lives, not that you would ever hear them talking about their belief. It was simply there and they were glad of it. It provided structure and, I think, some meaning to their lives.

What have the Buchanans and the millions like them to do with the militant atheists and their supercharged campaign against religion? The latter will say it is irrelevant. They will probably accuse me of viewing the world through the rose-tinted spectacles of half a century ago when society was altogether less cynical and world-weary. They will say that people like the Buchanans – if they still exist – would be better off if only they could see religion and the church for the nonsense that it is. And they'd be wrong. For them, what matters is what can be proved to be true. That's it. But in the real world, outside the walls of their intellectual ivory towers, that's not it.

This is not an intellectual game. Even if we know what is true – and we don't – you cannot reduce life to a set of provable realities. Humanity is too complex for that. In the end, it comes down to whether the world would be a better place without religion; and that is a matter of judgment, not certainty.

Yes, we loathe and fear the fanaticism that leads to a man strapping a bomb to his body and blowing up other human beings. But we should also fear a world in which the predominant values are materialism and consumerism, and the greatest aspiration of too many children is to become a "celebrity". The existence of religion can offer some balance in a society obsessed with image, which turns vacuity into virtue.

As I write these last few sentences I look out from my office onto the tennis court facing my house. It is a hot, muggy day and a group of young women are playing. They are clothed from head to toe in black, their jeans poking out from beneath the chadors. They look peculiarly ungainly and they must be stifling. As a nonMuslim it seems a bit odd and a bit alien to me, but so does a lot of other things – such as the fashionably dressed young people who get so drunk on Friday and Saturday nights you have to think twice about venturing into the town centre. We each make our own choices.

One choice is to accept the conclusion reached by Jean-Paul Sartre in The Age of Reason: "There is no purpose to existence, only nothingness."

That is a perfectly rational conclusion if, like me, you cannot accept that we exist in order to worship God. It is very hard to see any purpose in a world where an accident of birth determines whether a child leads a long and healthy life or dies an early death in grinding poverty; a world of hunger and war and disease; a world that we may be destroying through our own greed and stupidity. But however much he may appeal to our reason, Sartre's conclusion is too bleak for me.

Trite it may be, but most of us can see the beauty as well as the horrors of the world and, sometimes, humanity at its most noble. We sense a spiritual element in that nobility and, in the miracle of unselfish love and sacrifice, something beyond our conscious understanding. You don't need to be an eastern mystic or a devout religious believer to feel that. We should not – we must not – be browbeaten by arrogant atheists and meekly accept their "deluded" label. They are no more capable of understanding this most profound mystery than a small child making his first awe-inspiring discoveries.

As for the fanatics – religious or secular – history suggests they succeed only to the extent that we allow ourselves to be defeated by our own irrational fear. For every fanatic there are countless ordinary, decent people who believe in their own version of a benevolent God and wish no harm to anyone. Many of them regard it as their duty to try to make the world a better place. It is too easy to blame the evils of the world on belief in God. In the end, if we make a mess of things, we shall have ourselves to blame – not religion and not God. After all, he doesn't exist. Does he?

© John Humphrys 2007

Extracted from In God We Doubt by John Humphrys to be published by Hodder & Stoughton on Thursday at £18.99. It is available for £17.09 including postage from The Sunday Times BooksFirst on 0870 165 8585

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1. Comment #67242 by petermun on September 3, 2007 at 12:21 am

This reads like the final statement of someone about to announce he has been "born again" and ready to join the ranks of McGrath et al!

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2. Comment #67243 by flashbaby on September 3, 2007 at 12:24 am

 avatarI've spent time considering this article and have come to the opinion that I will need to write a long response. However I can't be bothered as it boils down to : what a fuckwit.

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3. Comment #67245 by Clappers on September 3, 2007 at 12:34 am

I read the paper version and there is an interview by Bryan Appleyard, where John says that he lost his temper redaing books by militant atheists like Ricard Dawkins and Dan Dennett. Now I can understand saying militant about Christopher Hitchens or Sam Harris ( I agree with their views), but The God Delusion and even more Breaking the Spell are entirely reasonable books.

Why didn't John Humphreys have the courage to include Richard Dawkins or Jonathan Millar in his hour long interviews with the 3 religious leaders.

Very disappointed

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4. Comment #67246 by Electric Monk on September 3, 2007 at 12:40 am

I thought that the article was really... um.... nice kind of went out of his way not to offend anyone whilst (importantly) missing the point almost entirely.

We keep on hearing about liberal or progressive ministers who accuse fundies of misinterpreting the bible and i always want to ask them on what basis they are claiming that the fundies are misreading it? What are their criteria for assessing the way that the bible is to be interpreted? - The fact is that "faith" is a warm cuddly blanket that can be used to justify whatever belief you happen to hold (regardless of whether you are liberal or conservative etc.) without having to subject your beliefs to any kind of criticism or argument - you just *know* that they're right. I don't claim to be more intelligent than some theologians, but i do claim that i am more inclined to question my beliefs - not just my beliefs about the world and how it works (which are dependant on evidence) but also my beliefs about what is ethical and moral, than most religious people. A large part of the reason for this is (i think) that my belief system is not based on faith.

P.S. Please stop saying that god is love - it makes no sense! - unless you are prepared to say that *love* is intelligent. Is faith like love? Yes, in some ways, but people sometimes love things that hurt themselves, or others. Just slapping the metaphor of love on faith does not justify it, legitimise it or render it "good".

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5. Comment #67247 by roach on September 3, 2007 at 12:42 am

An army of strawmen. I really dislike it when the "New Atheists" are criticized for supposedly saying that "believers are mostly naive or stupid" when, in fact, they often refer to believers as " intelligent and well-meaing people".

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6. Comment #67248 by Konradius on September 3, 2007 at 12:43 am

I got as far as the 2nd paragraph, then skipped to his 7 strawmen, saw they were moronic and skipped the rest.
If this guy is an agnostic (went back to check this, yes, he claims that) then he clearly believes in belief. And he should read The God Delusion in stead of at best skimming it.
This guy has no single clue about how to get answers to his questions. He would have after reading that book.

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7. Comment #67249 by Corylus on September 3, 2007 at 12:51 am

 avatarI like John Humpries and I'm not going to be harsh on him. (I loved the quote about the IKEA manual). He is obviously a humane and intelligent man. I might even buy his book.

However, I do think he is being shortsighted here. The trouble is when hanging with sweet and funny Anglican vicars it is easy to get a false idea of the state of the world. This statement leapt out at me.
Of course the mad mullahs are dangerous and extreme Islamism is a threat to be taken seriously. But we've survived monotheist religion for 4,000 years or so, and I can think of one or two other things that are a greater threat to civilisation.

Not 4,000 years when monotheist religion is going nuclear we haven't. Please Mr Humpries look at Iran.

Even without this, I find that once you strip away all philosophical verbage over the nature of ultimate proof and understanding you are left with one simple question.

What's the point of having a mind if you can't make it up?

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8. Comment #67250 by mikebreed on September 3, 2007 at 1:02 am

I don't agree with Humphrys, but can we please have a bit more sense in these threads than "what a fuckwit", Flashbaby? Honestly, if you can't do better than that, why bother posting at all?

If I came to this page as an interested but unconvinced reader, I'd take from comments like this that atheists/secularists are as they are so often painted: arrogant, rude, simplistic.

Give it a rest, eh?

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9. Comment #67254 by roach on September 3, 2007 at 1:24 am

Well if an interested but unconvinced reader came to the site, saw a comment like "what a fuckwit" and came to the conclusion that atheists/secularists are "arrogant, rude, simplistic", then that person is making the terrible mistake of taking the impulsive action of an individual and applying it to the whole population.

It's no different than coming to the ridiculous conclusion that all women are not to be trusted simply because your first girlfriend cheated on you.

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10. Comment #67268 by the_assayer on September 3, 2007 at 1:56 am

Roach, but nobody's arguing that an impulsive judgement about atheism is RIGHT. Rather the question is, " Is it wise for us to lose that potential reader, just because we in advance are only interested in the sort of reader who is more patient and critical? " In other words, Should we be trying to engage as many as people of as many types as possible?

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11. Comment #67270 by NJS on September 3, 2007 at 1:59 am

Replies to his replies.

1 What inteligence do people use to dismiss Ra, Thor and Zeus but believe in God? - irrational at best.

2. Do alcoholics kill people over brand choice?

3. Beneath contempt.

4. A function of strength of brainwashing and weakness of character.

5. Naive at best - bullying/brainwashing works.

6. How many would have been killed in the crusades if nuclear weapons were available.

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12. Comment #67271 by irate_atheist on September 3, 2007 at 2:02 am

 avatarThe question we educated atheisits have to address, is what leads otherwise seemingly intelligent sane people like John Humphrys, to think like this.

To respond to his numbered points, briefy in turn:

1. - John, you're citing unscientific anecdotal evidence. Enough said

2. Given what many use the Bible for, it actually shows a lot about those who take it's contents seriously. That it contradicts history and science hardly lends it credibility either.

3. Well, at the very least it does show a degree of wishful thinking, John, to suppose that you surive your own death...

4. hmmm, John, have you never noticed how parent's and children's Religious affiliations have a certain degree of cross-correlation? Inculcation, deliberate lies and deceit, and emotional blackmail to follow parents religion - if not brainwashing then still not very reasonable, John. Even my parents try it on with me and I'm married with kids.

5. Bullied into believing? Well, really this is an extension of item 4. Unless you're refering to the Taliban, Witch Trials, The Inquisition etc etc etc etc. Many thanks for raising the point, a superb own goal John.

6. The fact we've just about survived 4,000 years of lunacy is not thanks to the lunatics. Well, John, perhaps you haven't noticed the recent acquisition of Nuclear weapons by these people. Pakistan, America and Israel to name but three of the states I am refering to.

7. OK John, perhaps I was conned by the whole Father Christmas thing when I was about four but I've grown up since then. You can believe as fervently as you like that there is some bearded bloke (or metaphysical equivalent, I don't care which) who started and rules it all. But it doesn't actually make it true.

John, I admire your journalistic work, I still will, but you've certainly gone downhill in my estimation by writing this utter drivel.

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13. Comment #67276 by atp on September 3, 2007 at 2:18 am

There's way to much here to comment on. So I choose just one thing I think maybe not everyone has thought about.

If I say a religious person is naive or stupid, or that it is naive and stupid to believe in religion, I mean naive/stupid about this question. I don't mean the person is stupid in general.

All intelligent people are stupid now and then. So it is very possible for a highly intelligent person to act unintelligently when it comes to a question such as religion.

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14. Comment #67285 by MartinSGill on September 3, 2007 at 2:40 am

 avatarI have to admit that I recognise a lot of myself in Humphrey's description of atheists.

Unfortunately he suffers, at least in my case, from the delusion that I treat ALL Christians that way. I have to admit, to start with I did, but then I looked at myself and decided I didn't like the person I was becoming. I was becoming the enemy. The irony is, that by not being fond of the way I was behaving, I'd actually won a victory against the religious loonies. I'd shown that morality and decency does not come from the bible, indeed my very distaste for the behaviour of those claiming that argument for themselves is why I disliked seeing it in myself.

I still think of many Christians in just those terms though, but I reserve my scorn for the biblical literalists, and the creationists who John himself buries in scorn and contempt. How then is he any different to me? Just which parts of his list don't apply to him when he thinks of creationists, evangelicals and insane, megalomaniac mullahs?

Indeed, how is Giles Fraser any different to me? He also has "scorn (if not contempt) for the more traditional approach". As do I. The "traditional" approach leads to fundamentalism, the crusades, inquisitions, the oppression of science, the abuse of women and the mess in the middle east.

In many ways I see Fraser as no different to Sam Harris. Sam sees himself as a spiritual person and appreciates Jainism, Fraser is exactly the same, but instead of Jainism, he's chosen to label his spirituality Christianity.

The irony is that a couple of "traditional" Christians I know refuse to consider what Fraser believes to be Christian at all. They want nothing to do with the Anglican church, they hold it in contempt because it's not really Christian any more. Anyone who doesn't believe the resurrection really happened cannot be a Christian.

The problem with Humphrey is that he focuses too much on the British religious, epitomised by the Anglican church. A form of Christianity that is so watered down, and mostly harmless, that it's all but impotent; the very reason many "Christians" reject it and seek faith along more "traditional" lines.

Does Humphrey consider Ayaan Hirsi Ali an atheist militant? The woman who quite correctly points out the in the middle east millions of women live the lives of slaves or cattle at the hand of "traditional" religion, and all she wants is freedom for herself and her gender that the impotent Christians already have? And she wants those people to be vary of becoming more like her "traditional" former countrymen.

Humphrey may have spoken to many religious people, but he doesn't seem to have spoken to any of the evangelicals and the "undoubtedly stupid (witness the creationists)". Yet it those "undoubtedly stupid" people that the atheists he mislabels as "militant" are opposed to.

People like Giles Fraser, the man Humphrey seems to hold up as the argument against the atheists, are pretty much the vision of a religious man that these "militant" atheists are striving to achieve. People that believe, but believe intelligently, and sensibly.

Over 50% of Americans believe God created the Earth and humans fully formed in a matter of days; they are the "undoubtedly stupid" as Humphrey calls them. They are the target of atheist arguments and opposition and indeed fear.

It's a shame that Humphrey's exploration of the religious seems to be limited to those he's comfortable with, instead of focusing on those he, like the atheist "militants", holds in contempt.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

15. Comment #67286 by devolved on September 3, 2007 at 2:46 am

Well if an interested but unconvinced reader came to the site, saw a comment like "what a fuckwit" and came to the conclusion that atheists/secularists are "arrogant, rude, simplistic", then that person is making the terrible mistake of taking the impulsive action of an individual and applying it to the whole population.

It's no different than coming to the ridiculous conclusion that all women are not to be trusted simply because your first girlfriend cheated on you.


And not really that much different from saying that all religions are evil because extremists use them as power bases to bomb and murder.

Foul language is not a rare occurence on this website, its endemic. I'm surprised Richard Dawkins doesn't complain.

Other Comments by devolved

16. Comment #67292 by epeeist on September 3, 2007 at 2:55 am

 avatarComment #67286 by devolved
Foul language is not a rare occurence on this website, its endemic.

So is the cut and run technique of creationists who visit this site.

Nice to see you back devolved - you still owe us some answers on "The Flood". Would you care to answer these before you attempt to set any more hares running? You know, like where did the water come from and go to, how did Noah get hundreds of thousands of species of beetle on board the ark, what did the Koalas eat and how did they get to Australia?

Apologies to everyone else - devolved has a nasty habit of coming and attempting to stir up mischief, then disappearing once he is challenged and has to produce some evidence of his assertions.

Other Comments by epeeist

17. Comment #67306 by Duff on September 3, 2007 at 3:25 am

That is because devolved is one of the "stupid fuckwits" spoken of in these passages. Why would anyone expect anything intellectually founded to come from such people?

Other Comments by Duff

18. Comment #67307 by BAEOZ on September 3, 2007 at 3:25 am

 avatarSeems like a reasonable guy, whose desperate to justify faith and tell off those nasty atheists. Sigh.
I'd like devolved to tell me how Koalas and similar got over here to OZ from Turkey too. They only eat a small selection of Eucalyptus leaves, very picky. How'd they get them on the way?

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19. Comment #67308 by icanus on September 3, 2007 at 3:26 am

6. If we don't wipe out religious belief by next Thursday week, civilisation as we know it is doomed.

6. Of course the mad mullahs are dangerous and extreme Islamism is a threat to be taken seriously. But we've survived monotheist religion for 4,000 years or so, and I can think of one or two other things that are a greater threat to civilisation.

I consider myself a fairly hard-line atheist, as far as that goes (i.e. not very far, at elast wehn compared to a hard-line religionist), but I don;t want to wipe out religion. What goes on in someone's head is their own business - it's only when it spills out into public policy and the treament of others that it becomes a potential cause for concern.

For 3,500 of those 4,000 years of monotheistic religion the most destructive weapon at the disposal of fanatics has been some variant of the pointed stick (and even with this limited arsenal, they seem to have managed to do plenty of damage). Since then we've moved on to guns, and in the last sixty years, nuclear weapons.

Given what the Inquisition accomplished with just a pair of pliers and a red hot poker, I'd rather not see what their modern day counterparts could do with an ICBM.

Other Comments by icanus

20. Comment #67312 by Richard Morgan on September 3, 2007 at 3:28 am

 avatarHumphrys - OK? Can we at least get the spelling right?
When I read this kind of stuff I am left with several feelings. The first one is "What a lovely chap he probably is, at his kitchen table, in the pub, wherever." The kind of person I'd be proud to have in my garden.
Another feeling here is that his brand of silliness is so desperately sad.
Why doesn't he rejoice in the fact that it is godless science that could have given the Buchanans their longed-for baby, whereas their beliefs/church could only console them in their bitter frustration and privation?
But the real heaviness of heart was brought on by :
there are countless ordinary, decent people who believe in their own version of a benevolent God and wish no harm to anyone. Many of them regard it as their duty to try to make the world a better place.
Make the world a better place? Well, isn't that why Richard Dawkins wrote "The God Delusion"? Isn't that what atheism and rational thought are ALL ABOUT? Of course they are! I often wonder why this aspect of RD's work is barely ever mentioned.
Theists try to make the world a better place by invoking sky entities, and jollying us all along in the hopes of a better world AFTER this one.

Richard Dawkins is genuinely concerned with making this world a better place.
So am I.
Aren't you?

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

21. Comment #67314 by steve99 on September 3, 2007 at 3:35 am

 avatar
And not really that much different from saying that all religions are evil because extremists use them as power bases to bomb and murder.


Are you really dumb enough to post such nonsense after having read all the detailed explanations about what objections to religion really are? Are are you just trolling? I am afraid I suspect the latter.

Other Comments by steve99

22. Comment #67316 by Quetzalcoatl on September 3, 2007 at 3:42 am

 avatarDevolved-

Swearing is hardly endemic on this site. I'm sure you are well aware that most posters on the site are courteous and polite to a fault, and many of the others (among whom I count myself) have only the occasional lapse into rudeness.

A great deal of the swearing and rudeness is born out of frustration towards those who come onto the site to make ill-advised and judgemental statements, and who do not have the courtesy to respond to questions raised by others.

BAEOZ-

the koalas had eucalyptus leaves air-dropped by passing angels.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

23. Comment #67317 by NMcC on September 3, 2007 at 3:44 am

RICHARD

I HOPE YOU ARE GOING TO DEMAND THE RIGHT OF REPLY TO THIS NASTY PIECE

I read the Sunday Times version of this yesterday and I am still seething over it.

There are more false statements and non sequiturs in this article than any I have read for many a long year.

How to respond?

Richard Dawkins should demand the right to reply at equal length.

What's the point of sending a letter to the editor when the most that might get printed is a couple of truncated paragraphs?

Other Comments by NMcC

24. Comment #67318 by Ian on September 3, 2007 at 3:50 am

Well, that was... long.

Being an atheist, I'm bound to have missed some crucial point (or at least some religious type will claim so), but I think Humphrys is saying that people want some emotional connection with the universe and this is the source of religious feeling.

For those people who live in hunter-gatherer or agricultural communities, it must be easy to see spirits in things: trees that want to grow toward the sun, animals who want to hunt or graze etc. That is how they understand things.

For those in cold, hard, impersonal cities...

...but wait: why do we say cities are impersonal, when there are more people there than anywhere else?

Our instinct betrays us and there is the crux of the whole thing.

I think this poor majority of wandering doubters want to be able to live on the instincts we've all evolved with. Instincts which dealt with their environment by projecting intentions into it and that is still how all humans understand things for the most part.

As humans began to understand and unify phenomena in terms of impersonal forces and processes, many small gods gave way to one big one; that is how most people dealt with growing knowledge. But now, our knowledge is outstripping this tactic and people vary in how well they handle this change. Some like us, will handle the transition easily, but for others this projection of intentionality is a blind ally and thier crisis will only deepen - hence the depth of emotion.

As for Humphrys' attitude to us, well he should understand that for centuries, the religious have poured contempt upon us: saying that we lack something, that there are no atheists in foxholes and other casual calumnies. Our attitude is only a reflection of their own and will stop when they address their own poor behaviour.

So please religious people, look to your own sins.

Other Comments by Ian

25. Comment #67322 by Roll on September 3, 2007 at 4:01 am

It looks to me like the next phase of the public debate has just taken off.
People like Humphrys and Alibhai-Brown that have so far held themselves to be outside the religion/atheist debate. They have a much more balanced and nuanced view of the world than these warring extreme factions, as they see them. It is interesting to see where this will go. It seems, this disenfranchised group in the childhood of defining its own position in the world, feels itself set-upon by both the dogmatic religiously defined God and unfeeling scientific reductionism.

There is I think, affecting an awful lot of people of the same mindset, a growing dislike of cold-hearted, out of control science, globalisation, climate change, destruction of the planet, wars, religious or otherwise all lumped into one threatening bundle. A wish to return to better simpler times when we could just all get along…

We must accept that there are a huge number of people that have no interest in science or reason, are quite happy to live there lives not knowing (like most of us to one degree or another) and find happiness in this way. These authors do not really believe in God, but they see something not described by science or religion, that really happens to them.

These people are not to be loathed because they see the world in a different way. In fact all we lack is a common language to describe the world we see about us.

Do these authors really think that an atheist, does not, can not, see beauty in the reflection of a full moon over the sea? Do they imagine that we observe these physical events in terms of photons, atmospheric conditions and Newtonian physics? I really think they must.

Other Comments by Roll

26. Comment #67323 by pholt on September 3, 2007 at 4:07 am

He may have many useful and persuasive things to say but there is something deeply mistaken about thinking love is simply reducible to the chemistry of the brain.


Why do these people never feel the need to back up assertions like this with evidence.

Then he gets truly bizarre. First he attributes this opinion to the 'militant atheists'

2. The few clever ones are pathetic because they need a crutch to get them through life.


Then, a bit further down, he says the following on his own behalf. I don't see how this differs materially from the previous quote.

I suspect that on the most primitive level it is not all that different from the little scrap of blanket that so many small children rely on. They need it whenever they get tired or life looks a bit threatening.


Perhaps it's supposed to be ruder to call something a crutch than to call it a security blanket. I get the feeling Humphreys doesn't really know what he thinks. He just knows that you should be nice to believers in case you hurt their feelings.

Other Comments by pholt

27. Comment #67325 by Yorker on September 3, 2007 at 4:12 am

 avatarLike others, I too like John Humphrys' work as a TV journalist but I'm disappointed by this performance, he seems internally torn and unable to bring his thoughts to a conclusion he seems to fear.

There are those who occasionally use what Devolved calls "foul language" and some who never do. But to make an appeal to RD about it shows he's a mere skimmer of the material here, clearly unaware the word "fuck" has been used by RD himself! Personally, I'm a follower of the Stephen Fry school of thought on this, using profanity occasionally is the mark of an intelligent person, one of those little extras that make life interesting. It is NOT a sign of poor education or a lack of vocabulary.

Other Comments by Yorker

28. Comment #67329 by irate_atheist on September 3, 2007 at 4:28 am

 avatar"Foul language is not a rare occurence on this website, its endemic. I'm surprised Richard Dawkins doesn't complain."

Perhaps he prefers free speach to censorship?

Richard, it's over to you.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

29. Comment #67336 by monoape on September 3, 2007 at 4:43 am

 avatarOh dear, my estimation of Mr Humphrys just plummeted.

I almost gave up at the first hackneyed "militant atheists", but managed to wade through about half of it before succumbing to exhaustion.

Isn't this just an example of someone whose intellect is clearly leading them in one direction, but their childhood indoctrination stops them taking the decisive step?

As I read (over at Pharyngula?) recently: "he's baking lots of mental pretzels to maintain his beliefs".

Other Comments by monoape

30. Comment #67341 by hungarianelephant on September 3, 2007 at 4:56 am

 avatarDoes anyone else get the impression that the phrase "militant atheist" is the product of a focus group? It tries to convey either jackboots or hirstute, shrill wimmin, but has the merit of having no meaning at all, which means you can't argue with it.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

31. Comment #67342 by Jiten on September 3, 2007 at 4:57 am

 avatarWhat? In ONLY God we doubt? Shouldn't that be"In God and Fairies we doubt"? Wait,shouldn't it really be "In God and Fairies and in all sorts of other beings that people have dreamt up over the millenia we doubt"?

Other Comments by Jiten

32. Comment #67345 by monoape on September 3, 2007 at 5:01 am

 avatarP.S. On the issue of "foul" language - I'd really like someone to give me a coherent explanation of what, exactly is "foul" about any language. It's just words. It's more the delivery and intent than the combination of letters that causes offence.

Most profanities, or words that might be considered offensive have sexual connotation, and I wonder how much the role of religion over the centuries has contributed to that 'offensiveness'? For that reason alone there should be more liberal use of them!

Me, I'm more offended by the word 'eclectic'. I have an overwhelming urge to punch people in the face when they describe themselves as fucking 'eclectic'. If they follow up with a sentence containing 'juxtaposition', I'm going home to get the shotgun. ;)

(Foul language trivia: apparently many towns in olde England had a street called 'Cunt Grope Lane', where the oldest profession hawked their wares.)

Other Comments by monoape

33. Comment #67349 by devolved on September 3, 2007 at 5:13 am

Comment #67318 by Ian
As humans began to understand and unify phenomena in terms of impersonal forces and processes, many small gods gave way to one big one; that is how most people dealt with growing knowledge.


Is that an opinion that you can support with evidence? If the latter I'd like to see it.

Other Comments by devolved

34. Comment #67350 by Jolly Wally on September 3, 2007 at 5:21 am

One word: dinosaurs. Goodbye and good night.

Other Comments by Jolly Wally

35. Comment #67351 by Quetzalcoatl on September 3, 2007 at 5:24 am

 avatarAnother word- history.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

36. Comment #67360 by Goatboy2012 on September 3, 2007 at 5:47 am

 avatar"Militant Atheist"

Apparently, pointing out that someone's beliefs are stupid and wrong (and saying why) garners the same appellation for us as blowing people up, or using chemical weapons on civilians, does for theists.

I wonder what Humphrey's would say to a politician on his show spouting that kind of fake equivalence?

Actually, I don't care. This arse claims to have read The God Delusion* and simultaneously that Atheists are the only people he's met with absolute certainty that their beliefs are correct.

But remember, this is a man who interviewed Abu Izzadeen**

So to quote Uma;

"Well, I guess that makes him a liar.."

Still, I'm sure the God which he's not certain he believes in will forgive him for it when they snuggle up together tonight.

*I realize this isn't explicitly stated above, but it was in the Bryan Appleyard interview that accompanied this extract in the Sunday Times, though I guess he must have skimmed over chapter 2.

**22/09/2006 the Today Program, BBC Radio 4

Other Comments by Goatboy2012

37. Comment #67364 by Logicel on September 3, 2007 at 6:03 am

 avatarCan't see any new angle that is presented by this author--just the same old rehashing of hackneyed opinions in the direction of it does not matter if religious belief is true or not, it does good (sometimes), and that is what should be focused on.

What has really changed for these religious believers since atheism has gotten vocal and positive about its Godless image? Nothing. They can do exactly what they were doing via their religious beliefs prior to the development of the so-called new atheism. It boils down to the entrenched position of religious believers expecting respect, admiration, and tacit approval for their non-evidential beliefs.

Apparently, religious believers, either in the throes of their addicted state of embracing fully the unproven or perhaps just doing the dabbling game spiced with doubt for an extra frisson of bittersweet angst though still cleaving to the notion that humanity was created for a purpose, want not to be told that their romp in the spiritual realm is not all what it is cracked up to be. They can initiate doubt, but they sure do not like doubt taking the outside form of atheist's strong arguements against the practicality and effectiveness of theism.

Other Comments by Logicel

38. Comment #67367 by stephenray on September 3, 2007 at 6:15 am

I reject the assertion that Sartre's conclusion is bleak. It only seems so because we are battered with the opposite viewpoint from the time comprehension dawns on the organism.
I look at pictures of cosmic eggs in the Orion nebula and read about recent discoveries in molecular biology and I don't need spurious 'meanings' to be bolted on to 'life'.
Yeah, I'm pissed off about death, but what're you gonna do?

Other Comments by stephenray

39. Comment #67368 by pewkatchoo on September 3, 2007 at 6:16 am

 avatarI like John Humphrys, mostly. He is usually quite sharp when interviewing politicians and doesn't let them get away with any nonsense, unlike his fellow presenter the psychofant James Naughtie. But he is completely out of his depth here. He completely misrepresents atheists and atheism, I doubt very much if he has actually done a proper survey of atheist views given the nonsense he spouts. Either that or he has just interviewed a collection of very stupid atheists.

I will be writing to him personally with a complete reply to his fallacious article. He needs to be a bit more precise than this.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

40. Comment #67369 by Cartomancer on September 3, 2007 at 6:19 am

 avatarSigh... time to get out my old hobby-horse - the equivalence between religion and romantic love - again.

Humphrys is clearly suffering from the Love Delusion even though he has gone some way to getting over his God Delusion. By this I do not mean that he is actually in love (he might well be, but that's not the point), rather that he buys hook line and sinker into the unconscious, uncritical respect our society affords to romantic love.

I got through three sick bags reading the saccharin-sickly account of his friend's pre-nuptial infatuations. "Oh love must be so eerily special and transcendent, it can't just be a product of brain chemistry". The reason he thinks he can get away with this non-argument is that society has yet to wake up to the fact that romantic love, like the desire to believe in the supernatural, is a delusion. There are probably very good evolutionary reasons for both - direct or as the result of misfires in other systems - but that does not make the claims of either objectively valid. Until there is a slew of books called things like "The Love Delusion", "Your Beloved is not Great", "The End of Love" and "Letter to an Infatuated Nation" I fear society will continue to labour under this delusion. Humphrys is actually being very clever here and trying to salvage one rapidly crumbling delusion by tying it to a delusion we have yet to disabuse ourselves of or even realise that we need to.

To me however the association damns religion even more thoroughly than it was damned before. Some of us do not find our natural bio-chemical yearnings for love a wonderful, enjoyable, life-affirming experience. In my case they have caused nothing but anguish, misery and despair ever since I first gave thought to them. If love is as magical as its apologists would have us believe then it must be a dark sorcery indeed.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

41. Comment #67372 by The Flying Trilobite on September 3, 2007 at 6:27 am

 avatarHow much more time is spent by a "devout sceptic" until they become an unbeliever and atheist?

For me, it was reading River Out of Eden that had me drop my adolescent pagan-pose. A devout sceptic was what I was.

Reading "Time to Stand Up" in The Devil's Chaplain and Genome by Matt Ridley after 9/11 is what had me reluctantly admit there is no evidence for God and plenty for a natural universe. Perhaps a couple of more popular science books will nudge Mr. Humphrys along.

Other Comments by The Flying Trilobite

42. Comment #67374 by AJ Rae on September 3, 2007 at 6:36 am

There's so many inaccurate claims about The God Delusion and Atheists in general, I can't take him seriously. Many people have claimed to read the book, but make completely false assertions about its content. He invited religious leaders to talk to him, but didn't want to talk to any Atheists.

Apart from the nonsense, his argument consists of the premises that religion isn't harmful, and that religion doesn't claim to be rational or truthful. If that was the case, I wouldn't much care about religion outside of philosophical debates, and then, it wouldn't be too important.

Anyone claiming that fundamentalists are interpreting a holy script wrong, reading the wrong one, or following the wrong prophet, is a believer. So for an Agnostic to quote someone using this argument in support of his case doesn't make much sense. There's no rational basis for interpreting the scripture correctly, which scriptures are correct, or which prophet was really talking to God. That's without suggesting that perhaps no scripture or prophet is the right one.

Then we have "God is love", "love can't be explained by science". Scientists must be wasting their time on the subject then? No, obviously not, it's likely Humphrys hasn't spoken to or read anything on the subject. This is not where religion or faith operates, they're beliefs, love is not a belief, it's emotion or ambigiously "feeling". Just because it isn't supernatural and can be explained through evolution or chemistry doesn't mean it's fiction, it doesn't mean people don't fall in love. Humphrys has it all backwards.

Other Comments by AJ Rae

43. Comment #67376 by OhioAtheist on September 3, 2007 at 6:40 am

 avatarWhat expertise in neuroscience is Mr. Humphrys drawing on when he says it would be "deeply mistaken" to conclude that love is a function of brain chemistry? "Deeply mistaken" is the last thing such an assessment would be. It is indeed the only reasonable position given how time and again we've found that mental states correlate perfectly with physical brain states.

Other Comments by OhioAtheist

44. Comment #67379 by Logicel on September 3, 2007 at 7:02 am

 avatarCartomancer, I, too, think romantic love is a joke and the notion of universal love even funnier.

Love is many different things to as many different people, so in that less than stellar manner, it does resemble God belief. I remember being asked by a fellow psychology student to reply to her research study question, "What does love mean to you." She was most impatient and displeased with my response, calling it a cop-out. My reply was, Love is like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. She wanted me to spit out some absolute value for love--swear allegiance to its potency and great value.

As for what it is to my eye, it has varied (surprise, surprise!) I have been--and still am--in a 20 year relationship, and I have seen my notion of love change and almost disappear! I think those old-time arrangers of marriage knew more about successful pairings than us modern love addicts know. My relationship is based on familiarity, respect, and knowledge of my partner's strengths and weaknesses. Love really has nothing to do with it in the long run. In the beginning, yes, the excitement fueled by rampaging hormones, is what lots of people regard as love. But what was deeply layered in and around that chemical reaction was my pattern recognition skills--identifying the pattern of behavior shown by my partner and understanding that it fit me for the most part, and that he would add to the quality of my life, and that I could add to his.

As for universal love, we need instead to encourage and reward the following of just law/order, factual knowledge and its dissemination, education, etc. The pushing for universal love is misleading and wastes our precious time. Universal love and a few bucks will buy you a Latte at Starbucks.

Other Comments by Logicel

45. Comment #67387 by jaytee_555 on September 3, 2007 at 7:47 am

As has already been said, Humphrys is out of his depth here. Any regular reader of this forum could counter all his points very easily - that is if (unlike me) they could be bothered to hack their way through this boring article, dismantling it sentence by sentence. If Humphrys had spent a couple of hours reading through a few of the really good posts on here, he'd maybe not have bothered putting forward such a shallow, uninspired, old-chestnutty and done-to-death load of sentimental tosh as his contribution to the debate.

Other Comments by jaytee_555

46. Comment #67394 by Mango on September 3, 2007 at 8:45 am

 avatarThe author refers to "militant atheists" four times in this piece. This is a shabby rhetorical device to bias his readers against atheism because society is conditioned to be against anything militant.

Other Comments by Mango

47. Comment #67397 by captain underpants on September 3, 2007 at 9:10 am

 avatarJohn Humphrys writes:

... if, like me, you cannot accept that we exist in order to worship God. It is very hard to see any purpose in a world where an accident of birth determines whether a child leads a long and healthy life or dies an early death in grinding poverty; a world of hunger and war and disease ... But however much he may appeal to our reason, Sartre's conclusion is too bleak for me.

I.e. "reason compels us to this conclusion but I don't like it, therefore it must be wrong".

Other Comments by captain underpants

48. Comment #67400 by Janus on September 3, 2007 at 9:34 am

 avatarIt's amazing how often this kind of article pops up. It's as I predicted a year ago: Believers who are bright enough to try and "fight back" against us have realized that they don't stand a chance on intellectual grounds. So all that's left to them is to appeal to the widespread dogma that to express a view, or even a fact with great passion and certainty equals fundamentalism and intolerance and fanaticism.

I think Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens and the rest really need to focus strongly on refuting this "argument", and breaking down the aforementioned dogma as much as possible. In fact I think there is no more pressing issue in this campaign that's begun with The Root of All Evil?
It's the religionists' ultimate counter-attack, and sad to say it's working, because most people already agreed with them before they even started using this tactic. It has to be defended against _now_.

Other Comments by Janus

49. Comment #67405 by hungarianelephant on September 3, 2007 at 10:28 am

 avatarIf you were writing a piece on "what's wrong with the BBC's view of the world", you could do worse than to start here:
Yes, we loathe and fear the fanaticism that leads to a man strapping a bomb to his body and blowing up other human beings. But we should also fear a world in which the predominant values are materialism and consumerism, and the greatest aspiration of too many children is to become a "celebrity". The existence of religion can offer some balance in a society obsessed with image, which turns vacuity into virtue.

Is Humphrys really saying what he appears to be saying? Does he really think that these two things deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as if they were morally equivalent? That it's as bad to have your daughter on Big Brother as to have her blow herself up in a pizza parlour? Or is he just writing sloppily in the hope that he can gloss over the damage done by religion?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

50. Comment #67406 by Dr Benway on September 3, 2007 at 10:33 am

 avatarMr. Humphrys, your defense of subjectivity is unnecessary.

People differ. Some like country music; some prefer rock 'n roll. Only the most egocentric insist that everyone's taste must be the same.

Insofar as religion admits a subjective, personal basis, it's not a problem. But religion which goes beyond the subjective - religion which makes claims about our shared reality - is a serious problem in our increasingly global society.

If you've ever shared a flat, you know how personal space differs from common space. You can play any music you like in your room. But you've got to check with your flat mates before you crank up the radio in the kitchen.

Likewise, we must insist upon corroborative evidence when arguing for social policies that affect us all. Personal experiences which can't be corroborated can't be taken seriously in the context of civil discourse. This doesn't mean that these experiences aren't real or important to the people who have them

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"If this book doesn't change the world -- we're all screwed."

-Penn (Penn & Teller)

The God Delusion

The God Delusion

by Richard Dawkins

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Read the 1st Chapter!

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