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Thursday, September 6, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Bible Belter

by Richard Dawkins

Reposted from:
http://tls.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,25349-2649121,00.html

Christopher Hitchens
GOD IS NOT GREAT: The case against religion

There is much fluttering in the dovecots of the deluded, and Christopher Hitchens is one of those responsible. Another is the philosopher A. C. Grayling. I recently shared a platform with both. We were to debate against a trio of, as it turned out, rather half-hearted religious apologists ("Of course I don't believe in a God with a long white beard, but . . ."). I hadn't met Hitchens before, but I got an idea of what to expect when Grayling emailed me to discuss tactics. After proposing a couple of lines for himself and me, he concluded, ". . . and Hitch will spray AK47 ammo at the enemy in characteristic style".

Grayling's engaging caricature misses Hitchens's ability to temper his pugnacity with old-fashioned courtesy. And "spray" suggests a scattershot fusillade, which underestimates the deadly accuracy of his marksmanship. If you are a religious apologist invited to debate with Christopher Hitchens, decline. His witty repartee, his ready-access store of historical quotations, his bookish eloquence, his effortless flow of well-formed words, beautifully spoken in that formidable Richard Burton voice (the whole performance not dulled by other equally formidable Richard Burton habits), would threaten your arguments even if you had good ones to deploy. A string of reverends and "theologians" ruefully discovered this during Hitchens's barnstorming book tour around the United States.

With characteristic effrontery, he took his tour through the Bible Belt states – the reptilian brain of southern and middle America, rather than the easier pickings of the country's cerebral cortex to the north and down the coasts. The plaudits he received were all the more gratifying. Something is stirring in that great country. America is far from the know-nothing theocracy that two terms of Bush, and various misleading polls, had led us to fear. Does the buckle of the Bible Belt conceal some real guts? Are the ranks of the thoughtful coming out of the closet and standing up to be counted? Yes, and Hitchens's atheist colleagues on the American bestseller list have equally encouraging tales to tell.

God Is Not Great is a coolly angry book, but there are good laughs too; for example, Hitchens's hilarious account of how Malcolm Muggeridge launched "the 'Mother Teresa' brand upon the world" with his story that, while the BBC struggled to film her under low-light conditions, she spontaneously glowed. The cameraman later told Hitchens the true explanation of the "miracle" – the ultra-sensitivity of a new type of film from Kodak – but Muggeridge fatuously wrote: "I myself am absolutely convinced that the technically unaccountable light is, in fact, the Kindly Light that Cardinal Newman refers to in his well-known exquisite hymn".

Hitchens also offers an extremely funny brief history of Mormonism: how it was invented from scratch by Joseph Smith, a nineteenth-century charlatan who wrote his book in sixteenth-century English, claiming to have translated the text from plates of gold – which conveniently ascended into heaven before anyone else could see them. Even the amanuenses to whom the illiterate Smith dictated had to sit behind a curtain lest they should catch a glimpse and be struck dead. Do you know anyone so gullible? Yet today, Mormonism is powerful enough to field a presidential candidate, its clean-cut young missionaries patrol the world in pairs, and the Book of Mormon nestles in every Marriott hotel room.

Hitchens's title alludes, of course, to those famous last words "Allahu Akhbar". The subtitle has suffered from its Atlantic crossing. The American original, "How religion poisons everything", is an excellent slogan, which recurs through the book and defines its central theme. The British edition substitutes the bland and pedestrian subtitle "The case against religion".

I referred earlier to Hitchens's old-fashioned courtesy, and that was not (entirely) a joke. You can hear it in recordings of his lectures and debates, and you can see it in the first chapter of this book, "Putting It Mildly".

I leave it to the faithful to burn each other's churches and mosques and synagogues, which they can always be relied upon to do. When I go to the mosque, I take off my shoes. When I go to the synagogue, I cover my head.


The next chapter, "Religion Kills", benefits from Hitchens's experience as a war correspondent. (Others have likened him to Evelyn Waugh or Graham Greene, but my own comparison is with Waugh's intrepid rogue Basil Seal, who couldn't keep out of trouble or away from the world's trouble spots.) Publicly challenged by an American preacher to admit that, if approached by a gang of men in a dark alley, he would be reassured to learn that they had emerged from a prayer meeting, Hitchens's return volley was unplayable:

Just to stay within the letter "B", I have actually had that experience in Belfast, Beirut, Bombay, Belgrade, Bethlehem and Baghdad. In each case I can say absolutely, and can give my reasons, why I would feel immediately threatened if I thought that the group of men approaching me in the dusk were coming from a religious observance.


He does give his reasons too, and in no case are they vulnerable to the objection "But the dispute in B— is tribal / political / economic, not religious". It is doubtless true that the people of B— are killing each other over something more than a mere liturgical disagreement. They are pursuing hereditary vendettas, paying back economic injustices. It's all "them and us" stuff, yes, but how do they know who is them and who is us? Through religion, religious education, sectarian apartheid; through decades of faith-based separation, starting in kindergarten, working up through faith school and on to later life and the inculcated horror of "marrying out"; then, most importantly, the dutifully segregated indoctrination of the next generation.

I once had a televised encounter with a leading "moderate" Muslim, of the kind who gets a knighthood or a peerage for not being an "extremist". I publicly challenged this "moderate" to deny that the Muslim penalty for apostasy was death. Unable to do so (the Koran is word-for-word inerrant), he wriggled and twisted, and finally claimed that it was an "unimportant detail", because never enforced. Tell that to Salman Rushdie, of whom the knighted "moderate" had earlier said, "Death is perhaps too easy for him"

. . . . the literal mind does not understand the ironic mind, and sees it always as a source of danger. Moreover, Rushdie had been brought up as a Muslim and had an understanding of the Koran, which meant in effect that he was an apostate. And "apostasy", according to the Koran, is punishable by death. There is no right to change
religion . . . .


Thus Christopher Hitchens on his friend Salman Rushdie, whom he welcomed into his Washington home and was subsequently warned by the State Department

. . . to change my address and my telephone number, which seemed an unlikely way of avoiding reprisal. However, it did put me on notice of what I already knew. It is not possible for me to say, Well, you pursue your Shiite dream of a hidden imam and I pursue my study of Thomas Paine and George Orwell, and the world is big enough for both of us. The true believer cannot rest until the whole world bows the knee. Is it not obvious to all, say the pious, that religious authority is paramount, and that those who decline to recognize it have forfeited their right to exist.


Hitchens invokes the Danish cartoons to discuss complicity and cowardice in the West:

Islamic mobs were violating diplomatic immunity and issuing death threats against civilians, yet the response from His Holiness the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury was to condemn – the cartoons! In my own profession, there was a rush to see who could capitulate the fastest, by reporting on the disputed images without actually showing them. And this at a time when the mass media has become almost exclusively picture-driven. Euphemistic noises were made about the need to show "respect'" but I know quite a number of the editors concerned and can say for a certainty that the chief motive for "restraint" was simple fear. In other words, a handful of religious bullies and bigmouths could, so to speak, outvote the tradition of free expression in its Western heartland.


While I admire Hitchens's courage, I could not condemn those editors. There are times when "cowardice" amounts to no more than sensible prudence. But Hitchens is surely right to despise leaders of other religions who, while under no threat, go out of their way to volunteer a gratuitous "respect" and "sympathy" for those who incite murder in the name of God.
To return to Hitchens on Rushdie and the fatwa:

One might have thought that such arrogant state-sponsored homicide . . . would have called forth a general condemnation. But such was not the case. In considered statements, the Vatican, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the chief sephardic rabbi of Israel all took a stand in sympathy with – the ayatollah. So did the cardinal archbishop of New York and other lesser religious figures. While they usually managed a few words in which to deplore the resort to violence, all these men stated that the main problem raised by the publication of The Satanic Verses was not murder by mercenaries but blasphemy.


Moving to today's Iran (and this may go some way towards explaining his otherwise mysterious flirtation with the neocon blackguards of Washington) Hitchens notes, "as I write, a version of the Inquisition is about to lay its hands on a nuclear weapon". This is an unexpected threat. Theocracy doesn't obviously nurture the sort of cultural and educational advancement that goes with modern scientific inventiveness. Hitchens develops his point with respect to September 11, 2001, when

from Afghanistan the holy order was given to annex two famous achievements of modernism – the high-rise building and the jet aircraft – and use them for immolation and human sacrifice. The succeeding stage, very plainly announced in hysterical sermons, was to be the moment when apocalyptic nihilists coincided with Armageddon weaponry. Faith-based fanatics could not design anything as useful or beautiful as a skyscraper or a passenger aircraft. But, continuing their long history of plagiarism, they could borrow and steal these things and use them as a negation.


While my own primary concern as a scientist has been with religion's claims about the cosmos and the sources of life, Hitchens restricts such matters to two short chapters. Where he really comes into his own is with the evils that are done in the name of religion: "religion poisons everything". His list is pretty comprehensive. There is a good chapter on religion as child abuse; another on religion as a health hazard, which doesn't fail to mention those Roman Catholic priests, including at least two cardinals and an archbishop, who solemnly told their flocks, in African countries ravaged by AIDS, that condoms transmit the virus.

Reviewers have variously described Hitchens as an equal opportunity atheist, an equal opportunity embarrasser (of all religions), an equal opportunity ranter, and an equal opportunity bigot. He is certainly not a bigot, nor does he rant (any critic of religion, no matter how mild, is automatically assumed to "rant"). But it is true, as another reviewer of God Is Not Great has put it, that it is "ecumenical in its contempt for religion". Even Buddhism, which is often praised as a cut above the rest, gets both barrels.

It is no surprise that Hitchens's chapter "The Nightmare of the Old Testament" effortlessly lives up to its name. The next one, despite its promising title ("The New Testament Exceeds the Evil of the Old") is more about the unreliability of the texts than about any evil to match the admittedly high standards of the Pentateuch. Many Gospel stories were invented to fulfil Old Testament prophecies, and the shameless candour with which their authors admit it is almost endearing: "All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet . . .". The real evil of the New Testament gets a chapter to itself: that is, the divine-scapegoat theory of Jesus's crucifixion, as vicarious atonement for "original sin" (the past sin of Adam who had never existed, and the future sins of people like us who didn't yet exist but were presumed to have every intention of sinning when our time came).

Hitchens is quick to note the similarity of Christianity to extinct cults. Jesus slots right into a cosmopolitan catalogue of virgin births along with Horus, Mercury, Krishna, Attis, Perseus, Romulus and, incongruously, Genghis Khan. Is it Jungian atavism, shrewd PR, or sheer accident that leads the inventors of cults, and the religions into which they mature, to conjure their gods out of virgin wombs, like so many rabbits out of hats? Jesus's case was abetted by a simple mistranslation from the Hebrew for "young woman" into the Greek for "virgin".

One of Hitchens's central themes is that gods are made by man, rather than the other way around. A related theme is plagiarism: "monotheistic religion is a plagiarism of a plagiarism of a hearsay, of an illusion, extending all the way back to a fabrication of a few nonevents". A pair of chapters explores "The Tawdriness of the Miraculous" and the widespread fallacy that we derive our morals from religious rules such as the Ten Commandments. As Hitchens witheringly puts it, does anybody seriously think that, before Moses delivered the tablet inscription "Thou shalt not kill", his people had thought it a good idea to do so?

I said that Hitchens comes into his own on the evils that are done in the name of religion: "in the name of" is important. You can't just point to evil – or indeed good – individuals who happen to be religious. The case to be made is that people do evil (or good) – because they are religious. Crusaders and jihadis are – by their own lights – good. They do evil things (by our lights) because their faith drives them to it. The nineteen murderers of September 11 scrupulously washed, perfumed and shaved their whole bodies in preparation for the martyrs' paradise, as they set off on what they sincerely, truly, prayerfully believed was a supremely righteous mission.

If ever a man embodied evil it was Adolf Hitler. He never renounced his Roman Catholicism, and affirmed his Christianity throughout his life, but unlike, say, Torquemada or a typical crusader or conquistador, he did not do his horrible deeds in the name of Christianity. Another deeply evil man, Joseph Stalin, was probably an atheist but, again, he didn't do evil because he was an atheist, any more than he, or Hitler, or Saddam Hussein, did evil because they had moustaches. Hitchens is especially good on the idiotic challenge "Stalin and Hitler were atheists, what d'you say to that?" – doubtless after plenty of practice. Stalin, Hitler and the others may not have been religious themselves, but they understood the ingrained religiosity of their subjects, and exploited it gratefully. Hitchens makes the point only briefly in the book, but he has enlarged upon it in later speeches and interviews:

For hundreds of years, millions of Russians had been told the head of state should be a man close to God, the Czar, who was head of the Russian Orthodox Church as well as absolute despot. If you're Stalin, you shouldn't be in the dictatorship business if you can't exploit the pool of servility and docility that's ready-made for you. The task of atheists is to raise people above that level of servility and credulity.


The point applies again to Kim Jong Il (the Dear Leader) and to his late father, Kim Il Sung (the Great Leader), who is still the Eternal President of North Korea, despite having died in 1994. Hitchens has personal experience of North Korea, and his observations on its modern cult of ancestor worship are the sort of thing he does best.

Having failed myself to find anything to complain about, I thought it my duty to examine other reviews in the hope of uncovering something negative to say. Most of them have been favourable, but Matt Buchanan, in the course of an otherwise rave review in the Sydney Morning Herald, hit home with this:

He is also occasionally guilty of crassness. For example: "In the very recent past we have seen the Church of Rome befouled by its complicity in the unpardonable sin of child rape, or as it might be phrased in Latin form, no child's behind left." Hitchens squanders a lot of trust with that vulgar lapse: readers suddenly catch sight of him chortling at his desk and it's not pretty, or funny, and it impugns his seriousness elsewhere.


An undeniable lapse but not a characteristic one. The slightly odd habit of downsizing self-important leaders by calling them "mammals" is a lesser error of tone that might be corrected in a future edition.

Peter Hitchens begins his negative review in the Daily Mail quite well ("Am I my brother's reviewer?"), but the substance of his complaint seems to be that Christopher is as confident in his disbelief as any fundamentalist is confident in his belief. The answer to the familiar accusation of atheist fundamentalism is plain enough. The onus is not on the atheist to demonstrate the non-existence of the invisible unicorn in the room, and we cannot be accused of undue confidence in our disbelief. The devout churchgoer recites the Nicene Creed weekly, enumerating a detailed and precise list of things he positively believes, with no more evidence than supports the unicorn. Now that's overconfidence. By contrast, the atheist says the humble thing: of all the millions of possible entities that one might imagine, I believe only in those for which there is evidence – trombones, pelicans and electrons, say, but not unicorns or leprechauns, not Thor with his hammer, not Ganesh the elephant god, not the Holy Ghost.

The second commonest complaint from reviewers is that Christopher Hitchens attacks bad religion. Real religion (the religion the reviewer subscribes to) is immune to such criticism. Here is the theologian Stephen Prothero in the Washington Post:

To read this oddly innocent book as gospel is to believe that ordinary Catholics are proud of the Inquisition . . . and that ordinary Jews cheer when a renegade Orthodox rebbe sucks the blood off a freshly circumcised penis.


This complaint, too, is familiar, and the answer (even when the point is not exaggerated, as it is by Prothero) is obvious. If only all religions were as humane and as nuanced as yours, gentle theologian, all would be well, and Hitchens would not have needed to write this book. But come down to earth in the real world: in Islamabad, say, in Jerusalem, or in Hitchens's home town, Washington DC, where the President of the most powerful nation on earth takes his marching orders directly from God. Channel-hop your television in any American hotel room, look aghast at the huge sums of money subscribed to build megachurches, at museums depicting dinosaurs walking with men, and see what I mean.

Finally, there are those critics who can't resist the ad hominem blow: "Don't you know Christopher Hitchens supported the invasion of Iraq?" But so what? I'm not reviewing his politics, I'm reviewing his book. And what a splendid, boisterously virile broadside of a book it is.


---

Richard Dawkins FRS is Oxford's Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science. His latest book, The God Delusion, has sold more than a million copies in its first year, and is being translated into more than 30 languages.


Comments 1 - 50 of 88 |

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1. Comment #68133 by Jack Rawlinson on September 6, 2007 at 8:13 am

 avatar"...the whole performance not dulled by other equally formidable Richard Burton habits"

That made me laugh out loud! I just finished "God Is Not Great" myself, and while I had a few minor quibbles with the structure and weighting of some of Hitchens' arguments I thoroughly enjoyed it, and this is a fair review.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

2. Comment #68141 by Matt7895 on September 6, 2007 at 8:40 am

 avatarA good review, and I especially like what you said right at the end about not reviewing his politics. I don't share many of Hitchens' political views but as an atheist and reasonable thinker I do share his critique of religion.

Other Comments by Matt7895

3. Comment #68143 by oxytocin on September 6, 2007 at 8:43 am

 avatarExcellent review of a truly smashing book.

The one complaint I have is about the concerns that are raised by RD. First, Hitchens' phrase "no child's behind left" is likely meant as dark humor prompting us to feel the appropriate disgust, coupled with the question: "why do we put up with this?".

Second, when Hitchens calls his opponents "mammals", I think the purpose is to emphasize that his opponent is a fallible animal just like the rest of us. The goal is likely taking his opponent down from his/her high horse as a transcendant being who should exercise their "dominion over the earth".

Hitchens' arguments are often complex and literary [many of his allusions go over my head, I'm embarrassed to admit]. His commentary brings a sophistication, elegance, and flair that is very welcome.

Other Comments by oxytocin

4. Comment #68146 by CJ22 on September 6, 2007 at 8:51 am

 avatar"I once had a televised encounter with a leading "moderate" Muslim, of the kind who gets a knighthood or a peerage for not being an "extremist"."

Bwahahahahah!

Other Comments by CJ22

5. Comment #68147 by simonchase on September 6, 2007 at 8:51 am

 avatarGreat review Richard.

But personally I rather like Christopher's frivolous turns of phrase. It's perhaps an oblique championing of free speech. In a deeply moralistic book they serve to highlight the fact that many (often religious) people complain about lack of respect in the discussion of certain issues but that there are far greater problems in the world. It's almost like he's saying "Look at how unpleasant and glib I can be and you'll realize that it's not important in the face of these other issues". I don't know if that's the authors intention.

Also you write, "I could not condemn those editors". Surely they could at least have been honest and said publicly that fear not respect was their motivation for not printing the cartoons.

Cheers

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6. Comment #68148 by Spiral on September 6, 2007 at 8:53 am

 avatarI think Hitler was somewhat religious, or at least superstitious (is there a difference?). He consulted astrologers and such, talked about god and fate...
Oh, but this is all in The God Delusion. So, after all, I didn't have much to add to the discussion!

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7. Comment #68149 by detox on September 6, 2007 at 8:54 am

 avatarRead the book in a day when it came out. Re-read it slower and still loved it so I am biased. This seems like a fair review but I do agree with the criticism of 'no child's behind left'. But, a single lapse into crassness is hardly enough to negate the excellent arguments put forward and the downright readability of what in another person's hands might have been a very dry subject.

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8. Comment #68151 by Friend Giskard on September 6, 2007 at 8:55 am

 avatarRichard and Hitch have made a slight blunder. If I'm not mistaken, the injunction to kill apostates does not appear in the Koran but in the hadith.



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9. Comment #68160 by howtoplayalone on September 6, 2007 at 9:11 am

 avatarI think it should be said that while Hitchens is often a merciless debater, it's usually with people who got it coming, both because of their ridiculous beliefs, but also because of their righteousness.

I've heard a number of debates between Hitchens and fundamentalists that were cordial and even friendly. Other debaters, like Hedges, the apologist for suicide murderers, get, well, abused (Hitchens ran off stage and refused to even shake his hand, apparently).

A good review, and I especially like what you said right at the end about not reviewing his politics. I don't share many of Hitchens' political views but as an atheist and reasonable thinker I do share his critique of religion.


Well said, by both Mark7895 and Dawkins.


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10. Comment #68166 by Linda on September 6, 2007 at 9:22 am

Reading God is not great, how Religion Poisons Everything made me laugh and cry. The most disturbing bit for me is the description of the Orthodox Jewish circumcision ritual. Who knew that moels suck on baby boys' penises? That should get them a pedophile indictment at least and one for physical assault on defenseless victims.

Thanks Richard for a wonderful article. BTW when the whiners are pointing to the Hagia Sofia or Chartres as being examples of artistic worship please keep reminding them that the only employers in town were the clerics. You can easily show that the great modern secular works of visual and performing arts & architecture are evidence of intellectual artistic freedom. The newest and most astounding piece of artistic engineering is the Burj Dubai. Seeing that structure takes one's breath away in fact the entire Emirate is filled with astounding and beautiful buildings that have nothing to do with superstition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Dubai

Look carefully too at Da Vinci's Last Supper as a cryptic shot at the wretched Dominicans:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Supper_%28Leonardo%29

The figure on the far right is modeled on a bust of Plato. The entire construction has references to Cathar ideology as well as incorporating images from the Sforza Tarot deck. Art historians seem reluctant to crack the code and reduce another so-called ecclesiastic work to what it really is and that is a mockery of religion. My favourite Last Supper painting hangs in the Cathedral of Cusco, Peru. The building stands on the destruction of an ancient pre-Columbian ritual site. The clever Peruvian artist painted the feast scene with a guinea pig as the offering. Now that is art!

Given a chance to do some real research on the Shroud of Turin we could possibly see the first recorded photographic image in history which is also Leonardo's self portrait. Religion stands in the way of science at every turn.

We give the gift of TGL to those too fragile to face up to God is not great, how Religion Poisons Everything.
Best, LindaWS

Other Comments by Linda

11. Comment #68172 by themanchoo on September 6, 2007 at 9:36 am

Oh, flippin' eck, has anyone read the comments at the bottom of the original article? Here's an example:

Neither the good that religions do, nor the evil done in their name, proves or disproves the existence of God. Are we then condemned to this stalemate, where both sides rant and fail to convince the other side?

There is a tie breaker: The Book of Mormon. Maligned in this essay, it actually is complex, profound, and, most importantly... literally true.

Dawkins (and Hitchens) incorrectly state that only Smith saw the plates. At least a dozen others gave sober accounts of the plates, and most of those statements are published in the book itself. They had no ulterior motive, and much incentive not to lie. Even after some of them fell out with Smith, they refused offers by critics to "expose" him. Why?

The concern with the plates is for a tangible artifact that demonstrates God's reality, but we do have that: The Book of Mormon text itself, and the mountain of evidence for its veracity.

For a full, intelligent survey of the facts, see www.MormonEvidence.com.

Jamie Huston, North Las Vegas, Nevada, USA


Other Comments by themanchoo

12. Comment #68177 by Fire1974 on September 6, 2007 at 9:44 am

 avatarHitchens uses the term "mammal" not only to refer to his opponent but to himself as well. In reading the book (which I've done a couple of times) his use of the word is clearly intended to proclaim the obvious truth, that we are all evolved creatures who's, "prefrontal lobes are too small and our adrenal glands too big an our thumb and forefinger opposition isn't all that it might be and we're afraid of the dark and afraid of dying..." as he's said in other places.

I also think his "no child's behind left" is intended to be vulgar in order to emphasize the vulgarity of the situation, but can easily be mis-construed as callousness. I like his other "left behind" joke better; in reference to the pathetically so named books by Jenkins and Lehay. These two morons have obviously been 'left behind' in educational and literary sense.

Other Comments by Fire1974

13. Comment #68179 by robotaholic on September 6, 2007 at 9:49 am

You are right Professor Dawkins. I really loved CH's book. He is a wonderful writer- and so are you sir. I love your books as well as your public speaking, you are a great reviewer and wonderful critical thinker. You both are simply amazing.

I feel like in 100 yrs you and CH, and the whole crowd of you will be known as really great people, great thinkers.

CHEERS!

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14. Comment #68187 by joshuaslocum on September 6, 2007 at 10:10 am

To Prof. Dawkins (and others from the UK):


You've commented on Hitchens' phrase,

"or as it might be phrased in Latin form, no child's behind left."

by saying,

"An undeniable lapse but not a characteristic one."

Those from outside the US may not get the allusion Hitchens is making. George Bush pushed, and Congress passed, an education reform law popularly known as "No Child Left Behind." The law is controversial and has sparked acrimonious debate. Critics claim it's a law which punishes public schools whose students do not meet certain scores on standardized tests. These critics see the law as holding underfunded schools to impossibly high standards while providing insufficient money for them to meet the law's requirements.

Hitchens was undoubtedly alluding to the difference between the professed and the actual "concern for children" that our religiously fanatical politicians and institutions exhibit.

Of course, you may have understood that American reference, yet still found the phrase clumsy and vulgar.

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15. Comment #68191 by waxwings on September 6, 2007 at 10:19 am

 avatarWhat a beautifully written review. I submit this as exhibit 'A' to all those would like to diminish Prof. Dawkins writing ability in comparison to Hitchens' own. They may not have the same voice, but I submit that neither is superior to the other in composition.

Always a pleasure to read your stuff, Richard.

Other Comments by waxwings

16. Comment #68193 by Friend Giskard on September 6, 2007 at 10:21 am

 avatar
or as it might be phrased in Latin form, no child's behind left

Actually, in Latin that would be:

Nullius pueri anus praetermissus

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17. Comment #68194 by Nefrubyr on September 6, 2007 at 10:22 am

 avatarI'm fascinated to see the analysis here regarding Hitchens' use of "mammal" to describe religious leaders. I thought he was simply poking fun at those who willingly describe themselves as "primates".

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18. Comment #68196 by ksskidude on September 6, 2007 at 10:26 am

 avatar"to conjure their gods out of virgin wombs, like so many rabbits out of hats?"

Great line here! RD is right with his review of CH's book. It was afantastic read and very informing.

Does anyone know if the debate that RD and CH and AC were doing is on video anywhere?

Joe

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19. Comment #68202 by tieInterceptor on September 6, 2007 at 10:35 am

 avatarlol, some of the comments under the article are waky,


There is a tie breaker: The Book of Mormon. Maligned in this essay, it actually is complex, profound, and, most importantly... literally true.

Dawkins (and Hitchens) incorrectly state that only Smith saw the plates. At least a dozen others gave sober accounts of the plates, and most of those statements are published in the book itself. They had no ulterior motive, and much incentive not to lie. Even after some of them fell out with Smith, they refused offers by critics to "expose" him. Why?

The concern with the plates is for a tangible artifact that demonstrates God's reality, but we do have that: The Book of Mormon text itself, and the mountain of evidence for its veracity.

For a full, intelligent survey of the facts, see www.MormonEvidence.com.

Jamie Huston, North Las Vegas, Nevada, USA




the founding book of a religion is the literal truth of god?

who figured!

.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

20. Comment #68205 by Bonzai on September 6, 2007 at 10:55 am

"Bible Belter" sounds like someone who whips the bible with a belt.:)

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21. Comment #68209 by Linda on September 6, 2007 at 11:09 am

Joseph Smith was a circus huckster from upstate New York. That region produced a lot of religious fanatics too. He came up with a clever scam that illustrates how easy it is to fool lots of people.

South Park sums it up nicely, with songs too:-
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/the-south-park-guide-to-life-2-joseph-smith--mormon/4185395886

For more on the crazy Mormon cult check out Big Love – sure some men can get away having sex with little girls, call themselves profits ooops I mean prophets and spread the seed between sister wives. http://www.hbo.com/biglove/

So your grandma is your cousin, aunt, mom and niece – just think a whole state is predicated on that!

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22. Comment #68213 by Ophelia Benson on September 6, 2007 at 11:20 am

I once had a televised encounter with a leading "moderate" Muslim, of the kind who gets a knighthood or a peerage for not being an "extremist". I publicly challenged this "moderate" to deny that the Muslim penalty for apostasy was death. Unable to do so (the Koran is word-for-word inerrant), he wriggled and twisted, and finally claimed that it was an "unimportant detail", because never enforced. Tell that to Salman Rushdie, of whom the knighted "moderate" had earlier said, "Death is perhaps too easy for him"

No need to be coy - that's Iqbal Sacranie, of course. It's common knowledge that that quotation belongs to him.

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23. Comment #68214 by Robert Maynard on September 6, 2007 at 11:21 am

 avatar
Giskard: Actually, in Latin that would be:
Nullius pueri anus praetermissus
I had assumed he was referring to Latin grammar. Didn't it have a thing about putting the subject first and the action or description or what have you second? Something like that? I don't know much about latin.. :|

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24. Comment #68215 by zoltix on September 6, 2007 at 11:29 am

Friend Giskard said that
Richard and Hitch have made a slight blunder. If I'm not mistaken, the injunction to kill apostates does not appear in the Koran but in the hadith

Actually, Hitchens is exceptionally knowlegeable on the koran and hadith. If you listen to the BookTV interview (50:23) he makes the point that this is in the haditha.
I've also noticed that he often uses arabic words with a clear understanding of their meaning.
Incidentally, he has also commented in one of his lectures that CURRENTLY islam is the most dangerous religion.

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25. Comment #68216 by mikehicks55 on September 6, 2007 at 11:32 am

Interesting that Dawkins & Hitchens hadn't met before....a great meeting of minds that first meeting must have been...

Have to say that having read The God Delusion, Letter to A Christian Nation, and God is Not Great in the last few months, I actually enjoyed Hitchens work the most.

I found his literary style engaging, his arguments sound and his observations both compelling and amusing. His experience of religious opression and intolerance around the globe gave the book an additional dimension over and above TGD.

I'd sum the three books up as follows:

The God Delusion - a scientific guide to atheism

God is not Great - a literary guide to atheism

Letter to a Christian Nation - the Janet & John guide to atheism (accepting that it's intended audience requires it to be a serious "dumbing down"!)

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26. Comment #68219 by Quine on September 6, 2007 at 11:57 am

 avatarI am glad to see that "RD" has cut down the number of times he uses the capital "G" god term in his writing. I wish he would drop it altogether because it tends to instantiate the very thing he doesn't think exits. This has a unconscious dissidence effect on the reader.

Here is an example:

But Hitchens is surely right to despise leaders of other religions who, while under no threat, go out of their way to volunteer a gratuitous "respect" and "sympathy" for those who incite murder in the name of God.


What if he had written:

But Hitchens is surely right to despise leaders of other religions who, while under no threat, go out of their way to volunteer a gratuitous "respect" and "sympathy" for those who incite murder in the name of someone's deity.


Or better yet: "someone's made up deity"

I encourage all to drop the capital "G" deity so your readers will get the real message.

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27. Comment #68221 by decius on September 6, 2007 at 12:04 pm

 avatar@mikehicks55

Letter to a Christian Nation is a simple reply to criticism and hate-mail that Harris elicited with his End of Faith. A fairer comparison would be with the latter, which I warmly recommend. Harris's razor-sharp logic and humorous analogies make it a compelling and entertaining reading. Chapter VI contains the best refutation of Moral Relativism and Pragmatism to-date. Give it a try, if you have the chance.

Other Comments by decius

28. Comment #68222 by Philip1978 on September 6, 2007 at 12:16 pm

 avatarmikehicks55

I see what you mean, but without wanting to sound sycophantic to Professor Dawkins, I preferred his book the most out of all of them.

Hitchens was so hard hitting and direct I loved it, I love his style and I love his wording. My only problem with it was that I found him running off on weird tangents throughout the book, like in Notes on Health he moves from a great passage about how positively disgusting the spread of Aids has been aided by religion to then talking about Pakistan's nuclear tests, I felt a bit out of place when reading it but on the whole, just amazing. His chapter on Religion as an Original Sin is something that I think is top notch!

Sam Harris blew my head off and scared the living daylights out of me in a good way! I finally realised how dangerous religion is in the hands of the religiously motivated. I read him before I did Hitchens so I was, sort of, prepared for it all when I got to God is Not Great! Sam I really cannot criticise, I like his vocabulary and the pace of the book is unrelenting.

Professor Dawkins however was the first author I have read properly on the subject of religion, I had my own ideas but never really bothered to really think about it. Professor Dawkins introduced me to something that I really had not paid enough attention to as a schoolboy which I kick myself for now a bit, evolution. Plus the book really cemented for me the fact I still had a lot to learn about science and its effect on the world. I studied History and English at University and this was the first book in a long while to get me interested in biology and evolution. I still have a lot to learn but I like this book because it prompted me to think about something I had not paid enough attention to at school. His book inspired me to want to investigate things again, it inspired me to want to read about this subject so on to Harris and Hitchens and load of others who I want to read.

Like I said, being sycophantic is not my style and there are plenty of other books, especially by Douglas Adams, that have been a wonderful influence,its just Richard Dawkins wrote a damn good book!

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

29. Comment #68227 by Northern Bright on September 6, 2007 at 12:30 pm

 avatar
I encourage all to drop the capital "G" diety so your readers will get the real message.

"God" is both a noun and a proper noun, and the distinction between "god" and "God" carries meaning. Christians have given their god the name "God". When referring specifically to the Christian god by name, it's simply a matter of orthographical correctness to capitalise the G in the same way as you'd capitalise the P in Peter. It doesn't imply belief or respect - unlike the capitalisation of the letter H in Him, which I would avoid, for that very reason.

Conversely, though, omitting the capital G when it should correctly be applied causes such offence to Christians that I suspect it's a bit of an own goal. I know that if someone opened a discussion with me by gratuitously offending me, it would take a superhuman effort on my part to listen to the rest of their comments with an open mind.

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30. Comment #68235 by Quine on September 6, 2007 at 12:59 pm

 avatarPicking the capitalization of the generic "god" for the proper name of their deity was a master stroke of propaganda because it allowed them to slide their theology (i.e. future mythology) under the edge of orthographical correctness. When I refer to the god Zeus, I do the orthographical correctness thing. You can see what they have achieved when you try to write "I would do the same thing if I referred to the god God." The capital "G" mind trick substantially tilts the playing field.

I am not suggesting insulting Christians, or anyone else. I am suggesting we look to our language, and what we do not realize we are buying into. I strongly suggest you refer to the Christian deity as "the Christian deity" although I know it is much more work to type.

Also, it helps to keep in mind that the Christian religion has three main deities, a goddess, and several levels of demigods and non corporal assistant beings to keep track of. Perhaps I should change my position and start using "the Christian deities."

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31. Comment #68236 by D'Arcy on September 6, 2007 at 1:04 pm

 avatar
One of Hitchens's central themes is that gods are made by man, rather than the other way around


Dawkins, as usual, has his finger on the pulse. Of course all of the gods were products of the human immagination. Arising out of an ignorance of nature, spirits like Aeriel or Puck were summoned by the Prospero of the time to perform things that humans were incapable of. Each particular god reflected the society it came from, as did the after life. The (dare I say it?) Red Indian happy hunting ground was a lot different from the harps and angels of the European Christian heaven.

I look forward to the time when members of society can say "this is it. There is no heaven or hell, and we're lucky to be here."

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32. Comment #68237 by Northern Bright on September 6, 2007 at 1:11 pm

 avatarI'm going to come clean and say from the outset that I haven't read "God is Not Great" and so I'm not qualified to comment on it (although I gather that, so far as the Sunday Times is concerned, that would make me the ideal reviewer ;-) )

I can't tell you how often I've picked it up in Borders, or put it into my basket with Amazon, only to put it down again.

For one thing, each time I flick through it, it just seems to be a litany of bad things that people have done in the name of their religion. Well, I don't need persuading of that but, equally, to me it's irrelevant to the central question, which is - is there a god at all? I am as convinced as I feel it's possible or reasonable to be that there isn't BUT the fact that people behave abominably in the name of religion doesn't of itself prove that there isn't a god. There may be a god that doesn't give a damn, for instance, or a god that positively enjoys watching people blow one another up in his/her/its name. Would I like or worship such a god? No - but I don't need to read a book to clarify my thinking on that point.

The other thing that puts me off is that I spent quite a long time last week watching Christopher Hitchens very carefully in the videos on the BuildUpThatWall website. In the first one he enthralled me - that intelligence, that wit, that style, that voice, that arrogance. It was a heady brew and I was fascinated.

Video 2, I discovered, contained the same answers expressed in a different setting. And so did video 3. Video 4 - yup, same again. And so it continued. Although I found him very compelling and very enjoyable to listen to, and I thought the points he made were very good, I increasingly had the sense that he had a pre-prepared set of responses and that asking him a question was a bit like putting money in a juke box and watching the machinery select the chosen song. At times, I even noticed him twisting the question in order to be able to give one of his pre-prepared answers. Although his delivery was very natural and SOUNDED as if he was actively thinking of his answer as he spoke, the words he used, the intonation, the pauses, the gestures, were all identical to the last time I'd heard him answer that question.

None of this in any way detracts from the excellence of those answers. It's just that, having heard them delivered in maybe 6 different contexts, I already know them by heart and don't feel the need to read them too.

I have another gripe with him, which is that, although he is undoubtedly capable of great courtesy, he is all too often gratuitously rude. I have no problem whatsoever with forthright or direct or uncompromising, but I cringe when I see him shouting his opponents down and simply talking over other people and refusing to abide by any of the rules of debate. And please don't say he only does it when others are doing it to him, because that wouldn't be true. He did it when he was on Question Time, and he did it particularly offensively when he and someone else were both being interviewed on a US TV show. I can't remember the details, unfortunately, and the clip wasn't there when I looked just now, but it culminated in the anchorman apologising to the audience for the chaos that had just broken out and promising that CH would never be invited onto the show again. And, much as I support what CH is trying to achieve, I really didn't blame the anchorman at all.

At his best, there's no doubt that Christopher Hitchens is formidably good - but at his worst, he comes across (to me, at least) as a bit of a brat.

Other Comments by Northern Bright

33. Comment #68242 by Richard Morgan on September 6, 2007 at 1:36 pm

Northern Bright :
At his best, there's no doubt that Christopher Hitchens is formidably good - but at his worst, he comes across (to me, at least) as a bit of a brat.
Yes. I agree.
But let us not forget that this kind of attitude with an English accent is very popular among many Americans, and he has almost certainly cultivated this "persona" with his public in mind.
So even though it does get up my nostril a bit occasionally, overall it's good that we have a variety of "styles" in attacking religion.
We have the "smart-ass brat", the "very reasonable gentleman", the "verbal whizz-kid", and "the kindly but wise philosopher". Each one has his place in this debate. And everybody will have their preferences.
But in the end, isn't it "Truth" that matters more than anything else?
"A rose by any other name...."

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

34. Comment #68245 by scooternyc on September 6, 2007 at 1:58 pm

 avatarI rather like Hitchens comments such as "no child's behind left" and his statement, "one may note that children if left unmolested by rabbis and imams are drawn to pigs..."

These are the very polemical statements that need to be repeated to bring the audacity of such a foundational worshiping section of society to understand just how dangerous it is to itself and the rest of the world in more than just one area of existence.

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35. Comment #68246 by Friend Giskard on September 6, 2007 at 2:04 pm

 avatarComment #68214 by Robert Maynard
I had assumed he was referring to Latin grammar.

I get it. I just wanted to show off my Latin proficiency.

(Cuius enim occasiones faciendi rarissimae sunt. Ignoscas.)

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

36. Comment #68257 by Northern Bright on September 6, 2007 at 2:27 pm

 avatar33. Comment #68242 by Richard Morgan on September 6, 2007 at 1:36 pm
I don't disagree with anything you write here, Richard. Just saying that, for my money, Christopher Hitchens is a mixed blessing. I'm absolutely sure you're right when you suggest that he's cultivated his persona deliberately - I think it's partly the transparency of that fact that grates on me and makes me feel I'm being manipulated.

I can see that his style would be effective in attracting those who already agree with us; and that's not unimportant. But somehow we also need to find a better way of putting the message across to our ultimate audience - the potential waverers in the religious communities.

If a religious person fears (as many of them do) that atheism must lead to chaos and lower moral standards, then watching Hitchens throwing the toys out of his pram isn't likely to persuade them that there's nothing to fear on this score.

As for "Truth mattering more than anything else", I'd certainly agree that it's essential. But truth + an ability to win people over is even more powerful than truth alone.

In my Christian days I had a friend who was a real evangelical and used to fret about how few people she'd managed to convert. Personally I was just grateful if I hadn't put anyone off. :-)

And maybe that's all we can realistically aim for: that we put the facts and the evidence out there, but then try not to do anything that is clearly likely to alienate our target audience and give them an excuse not to consider what we're saying.

A friend of mine used the expression "attraction, not conversion" the other day - and it struck me as a helpful one. How do we attract people to atheism? Maybe actively trying not to repel them would be a good place to start!

Other Comments by Northern Bright

37. Comment #68258 by prettygoodformonkeys on September 6, 2007 at 2:30 pm

 avatarThere are many ways to spread freethinking, but in my experience an intelligent, humourous BRAT is the best. Once you have seen the humour it is impossible to un-see it, while reams of reasonable explanation can be effectively dismissed by lesser minds with just a bit of wit.

The combination of CH's reason and humour is devastating; no one has to be perfect, surely.

I mean, even Jesus.......well, never mind!

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38. Comment #68261 by Northern Bright on September 6, 2007 at 2:38 pm

 avatar
The combination of CH's reason and humour is devastating

Agreed - no quibble with that at all. It's not his debating technique but his occasional tantrums that I'm questioning - they're neither reasonable nor humorous.

no one has to be perfect, surely.

It may be unreasonable, but I think when you're putting yourself forward as one of a very small number of public faces for a campaign as important and controversial as this one, you do have to come pretty close. Anyway, not losing your temper and behaving like a hormonal teenager in public doesn't exactly take perfection. Even I can manage it! ;-)

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39. Comment #68262 by Riley on September 6, 2007 at 2:42 pm

 avatarjoshuaslocum,
good point you bring up concerning the "no child's behind left" comment.

Northern Bright,
I also have mixed feelings about Hitchens, not as much because he rubs people wrong as because I've known him to misrepresent facts and/or misrepresent the other side of arguments. (read here, for example - or here for another example)

Also, I think I've found a pretty good way of dealing with the "God" vs "god" issue. When writing to a believer I try to be as specific as possible. This means referring to: "the god of the Bible" or "Muhammad's god" not simply "God". Doing this I think gets the point across about the parochial nature of "God" without provoking a personally charged fight.

--

Other Comments by Riley

40. Comment #68264 by pewkatchoo on September 6, 2007 at 2:54 pm

 avatarI finished god is NOT Great just last week. It is incredibly fluid writing and I enjoyed it immensely.

Kudos to Hitchens for producing such a memorable work. I even rate it higher than Professor Dawkins own effort, and that is saying something.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

41. Comment #68267 by keith on September 6, 2007 at 3:07 pm

 avataryes but Hitchens supported the Iraq war and he always wears the same beige suit and he drinks all the time and he's never explained why if atheism is so great why Stalin killed all those people in goulags and he can't find any evidence that there isn't a God so he should find out about a subject before he criticises it because if he wasn't so arrogant and learned more he would know there is a God which has been proven by lots of people even scientists who have let Him into there lifes and he divorced once and where does morality come from if there's no god that's what I'd like to know and he's never answered that one because he can't and he was rude about Jerry Falwell which isn't a nice thing to do if you're dead how would he like it.

Other Comments by keith

42. Comment #68280 by Linda on September 6, 2007 at 3:39 pm

keith - humour us a bit here and please provide proof of gods, the supernatural and or the after life. BBC is holding the World Service for your momentous announcement which must be supported by documentary evidence. A warm fuzzy feeling in the head or an hallucination doesn't count as those events are simply manifestations of brain activity producing illusions. You must be new here. Most of your questions are answered somewhere on this magnificent & informative website so take a look around.

Jerry Falwell was a big jerk. Just because he died it doesn't mean that he should be praised or honoured.

Other Comments by Linda

43. Comment #68284 by joshuaslocum on September 6, 2007 at 3:49 pm

EDIT: Please ignore this post. . . I was obviously too dumb to notice Keith was making a joke:(


To add to what Linda said, Keith, for the love of your god, please also humor us with the occasional punctuation mark. It really makes reading so very much easier. That's the longest run-on sentence I've seen in months - didn't even read your post after I deduced it was just one long train of words.

Other Comments by joshuaslocum

44. Comment #68285 by Donald on September 6, 2007 at 3:52 pm

Comment #68151 (~8) by Friend Giskard:
Richard and Hitch have made a slight blunder. If I'm not mistaken, the injunction to kill apostates does not appear in the Koran but in the hadith.

You are quite right that this rule does not appear in the Koran. It comes from the Hadith, which list the sayings and deeds of mohammed (and hence muslims should follow). The key one is: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/083.sbt.html#009.083.017

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

However, Richard was right in his challenge to Sacranie. The muslim penalty for apostasy is death, as is the law today in Afghanistan, Iran, Mauritania, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudia Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen.

Other Comments by Donald

45. Comment #68296 by Richard Morgan on September 6, 2007 at 4:41 pm

Northern Bright :
But truth + an ability to win people over is even more powerful than truth alone.
Strangely enough, LIES + an ability to win people over is just as powerful and effective. I should know! I was a Mormon missionary for two years (1972-1974) and my sales figures, oops, sorry, conversion figures were pretty impressive.
It's true, so often it's not what you say that matters, it's how you say it.
According to a study, in courts of law, jury-members will be more influenced by an unlikely witness who sounds convinced about what he's saying, than a witness with more reasonable evidence but who expresses himself with less conviction.
But even Hitchens' tantrums will have a positive influence on some people who might otherwise remain indifferent to a Dawkins, Harris, Dennett or Kirby. (Or Morgan. Though I'm more brattish than most here in this forum.)

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

46. Comment #68308 by Friend Giskard on September 6, 2007 at 7:06 pm

 avatarHey, people. Keith (#68267) is being humorous. Duh!

And no, he's not new here.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

47. Comment #68309 by joshuaslocum on September 6, 2007 at 7:15 pm

Friend: Thanks for pointing out I'm humor-impaired today! D'oh!

Other Comments by joshuaslocum

48. Comment #68313 by Friend Giskard on September 6, 2007 at 7:25 pm

 avatarjoshuaslocum,

I sympathize. I've said things myself on the internet so dumb that I've had to change my identity.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

49. Comment #68314 by Quine on September 6, 2007 at 7:29 pm

 avatarYou noticed, I presume, that keith uses a picture of Reggie as his av. see:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-973788168455826237&q=Leonard+Rossiter&total=58&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

The "beige suit" pretty much gave it away for me.

Other Comments by Quine

50. Comment #68321 by Dean Peterson on September 6, 2007 at 8:07 pm

Surely Hitchens' comment "no child's behind left" is NO WHERE near as offensive as the actual and innumerous priestly acts he is directing his venom towards. Framed this way, his comments are mild in the extreme; something much sharper would be entirely in order here! I've yet to read the sort of appropriate outrage commensurate with these crimes against children - at best, it's been belated inadequate apologies and excuses, followed by rather petty remunerations. If this had occurred just ONCE in ANY other public institution, we would have found it shuttered immediately, and prosecuted from the TOP down. "No child's behind left" is hardly scratching the surface, but it's a damned good start.
Go Hitch!!

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