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Thursday, September 6, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Honest Mistakes or Willful Mendacity

by Richard Dawkins

To prepare for my BBC Radio 4 discussion with John Cornwell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/, I read Cornwell's book Darwin's Angel: an angelic response to The God Delusion
(http://richarddawkins.net/article,761,The-Fourth-Flea,John-Cornwell). I'm not going to write a proper review of the book, but it set me thinking again about a common phenomenon, which I am finding increasingly irksome. This is a tendency for critics to read what their prejudices expect to see in a book rather than what is actually there. At first, I thought Cornwell was just another example of this. Now, having finished his book, I am wondering whether I was being too charitable. I am now wondering whether he is actively dishonest.

Magnus Linklater's rather effete piece of I'm-an-atheist-buttery
(http://richarddawkins.net/article,1604,Like-any-half-decent-atheist-Im-fond-of-a-bit-of-religion,Magnus-Linklater-Times-Online) is, I suspect, not deliberately dishonest. He writes

[Dawkins] compares those who take comfort from traditional religion to people stuck for the night on a bare mountain, who warm to the appearance of a large St Bernard dog, "not forgetting, of course, the brandy barrel around its neck".


To put it mildly, that gives a misleading picture of the role of the St Bernard in my book. Here's the relevant passage from The God Delusion, and you'll see that the St Bernard was part of a list of the kind of things consolation might mean to anyone. It was a preliminary exercise in tabulating the variety of types of consolation, before I began to tackle the question of whether, as a matter of fact, religion is consoling:

Consolation, in the Shorter Oxford Dictionary, is the alleviation of sorrow or mental distress. I shall divide consolation into two types.

1. Direct physical consolation. A man stuck for the night on a bare mountain may find comfort in a large, warm St Bernard dog, not forgetting, of course, the brandy barrel around its neck. A weeping child may be consoled by the embrace of strong arms wrapped around her and reassuring words whispered in her ear.

2. Consolation by discovery of a previously unappreciated fact, or a previously undiscovered way of looking at existing facts. A woman whose husband has been killed in war may be consoled by the discovery that she is pregnant by him, or that he died a hero. We can also get consolation through discovering a new way of thinking about a situation. A philosopher points out that there is nothing special about the moment when an old man dies. The child that he once was "died' long ago, not by suddenly ceasing to live but by growing up. Each of the seven ages of man "dies' by slowly morphing into the next. From this point of view, the moment when the old man finally expires is no different from the slow "deaths' throughout his life. A man who does not relish the prospect of his own death may find this changed perspective consoling. Or maybe not, but it is an example of consolation through reflection.


As you see, I was simply trying to sort out two rather different meanings of the word 'consolation', not saying anything (yet) about religion at all. This should have been made doubly clear from the example of the war widow consoled by the discovery that she is carrying the child of her slain husband. Also the weeping child consoled by strong arms and reassuring whispers. Clearly this type of consolation has no necessary connection with religion at all, and equally clearly I am sympathetic to it, and am in no way sneering at it.

Now look at how John Cornwell handles this. He takes up the second of my two main categories of consolation, the one where we might gain consolation from a new way of thinking about familiar facts. Here is Cornwell's account of my philosopher's point about dying slowly as we progress through life's stages. (Don't be thrown by his use of the second person singular, by the way. The whole book is written in the form of an open letter to me.)

The atheist "philosopher's" view you cite argues that when an old man dies, "The child that he once was "died' long ago. . . From this point of view, the moment when the old man finally expires is no different from the slow 'deaths' throughout his life." Tell that to a teenager dying of cancer, and his family.


Do you see what Cornwell is up to here? First he puts the word "philosopher" in quotation marks, which can only have been intended sarcastically. In a footnote, I attributed the argument to Derek Parfit, who happens to be an extremely distinguished philosopher, author of the book Reasons and Persons, described by another eminent philosopher, Alan Ryan, as "something close to a work of genius". Even if Cornwell didn't see my attribution to Parfit, his sarcastic quotation marks were uncalled-for. How did he know whether I got the argument from a real philosopher that he respects, or not? Why be sarcastic?

Second, Cornwell describes my "philosopher" as an atheist, although I never said he was an atheist and Parfit's point would be just as valid whether he is or not. There never was any suggestion that the argument is an atheist argument, put by an atheist philosopher. That wasn't why I brought it up, not at all. Once again, Cornwell is reading what he expects to see, not what is actually there.

Third, as with the Linklater misreading, Cornwell seems to think that I am offering the (Parfit) argument as an atheistic alternative to religious consolation. Why else would he add the gratuitously sour sentence: "Tell that to a teenager dying of cancer . . ." Once again, I was offering the Parfit argument simply as an illustration to clarify the kind of thing that consolation can mean: the consolation we can derive from a new way of thinking about familiar facts.

Cornwell has a whole chapter called 'Dawkins versus Dostoyevsky'. The entire purpose of the chapter is to reply to what he believes is a misunderstanding, by me, of Dostoyevsky. Here's what Cornwell says:

There can be few people alive today who would boast ethical superiority over the novelist Fyodor Dostoyevsky. You depict the powerful character of Ivan Karamazov, in Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov, as believing that if God does not exist then everything is permitted. In other words, a world without belief in God is bound to be a world of unbridled crime and sin. It does of course appear rather a crass viewpoint; and it surely seems odd that Dostoyevsky, as you claim, shared in that crassness.


But, for heaven's sake, I did not claim any such thing. Quite the reverse. Here's what I actually wrote:

It is widely believed that Dostoevsky was of that opinion, presumably because of some remarks he put into the mouth of Ivan Karamazov.


I should have thought the irony in my words would be obvious. Isn't it clear from "widely believed" and "presumably" that I was signalling my own scepticism at the widely believed notion that Dostoevsky himself agreed with Ivan.

After a long quotation from Ivan, I wrote:

Perhaps naively, I have inclined towards a less cynical view of human nature than Ivan Karamazov.


But now look at Cornwell's traducing of what I said:

You are happy to inform your readers, with the neat disclaimer -- "Perhaps naively' -- that you have inclined towards a less cynical view of human nature than Dostoevsky.


See what Cornwell has outrageously done? He has replaced "Ivan Karamazov" in my sentence with "Dostoevsky" in his paraphrase, in order to fit in with his allegation that I attribute Ivan Karamazov's view to Dostoevsky himself. What do you think, is that an honest mistake or deliberate mendacity? Either way, he bases an entire chapter on this one misreading of what I wrote, putting me straight, as he thinks, on Dostoevsky. He even has the cheek to say:

There seems to be a misunderstanding between you and the great novelist, perhaps as a result of your misreading of his work . . .


My misreading? My misunderstanding? Please!

But if that is irritating, the following is gratuitously offensive. Cornwell is talking about Dostoevsky's reading of nineteenth century thinkers. He mentions Jeremy Bentham, John Stuart Mill, Utopian Marxism, and "a set of ideas that you would have applauded – Social Darwinism." Does Cornwell seriously imagine that I would applaud Social Darwinism? Nobody nowadays applauds Social Darwinism, and I have been especially outspoken in my condemnation of it (see, for example, the title essay that begins A Devil's Chaplain).

My final example from Cornwell's book may seem trivial, but I think it is indicative. In TGD I needed, in passing, to explain the phenomenon known as genetic linkage. Having done so, I wanted to point out that, in this particular case, the technical term and the colloquial term happen to be identical. The way I chose to put this was by jesting allusion to the proverbial medical doctor's fondness for technical jargon: "You are suffering from what we doctors call a bellyache." So I borrowed this jocular idiom and said "We doctors call that kind of linkage linkage'. My 'we doctors' construction was an obviously facetious way of saying "The technical name for this phenomenon is 'linkage." Now see what Cornwell does with it:

You refer to believers as "faith sufferers", and you refer to you and your associates as "we doctors".


Tell me, is that or is that not a clear case of out-and-out dishonesty? At very least, it certainly looks suspiciously like petty malice: trawling my pages to find something unpleasant to say. Surely Cornwell could not possibly have been unfamiliar with the doctor idiom that I was parodying. Even if he was, since the topic under discussion was genetic linkage and nothing to do with religion, the implication of his censorious remark is preposterously inapproriate. This is only a small example, but a man who can do that . . . can you trust anything he says? And now, if you look back at the other examples I gave, doesn't it make you less inclined to excuse them too as honest mistakes?


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1. Comment #68145 by BicycleRepairMan on September 6, 2007 at 8:50 am

 avatarHi, you linked to the wrong article, (the Ipod book, instead of the article on Cornwells book), you'd better fix it before he uses it against you ;)

here's the link to the news article on the Cornwell book:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,761,The-Fourth-Flea,John-Cornwell

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

2. Comment #68153 by jamerg on September 6, 2007 at 8:58 am

Wow. I just listened to the Today Programme was was genuinely scandalised - I can't imagine how Richard felt. Cornwell was simply totally misrepresenting things as RD's opinion (eg. Richard Dawkins thinks that any form of religion is the same as paedophilia). It was really quite breathtaking and I imagine the book to be more of the same.

It's hard to believe that someone who has witten a book rebutting The God Delusion hasn't actually read it, or that Cornwell isn't clever enough to understand it. It seems to me that he must therefore be being outright dishonest.

If I was you, Richard, I'd be taking legal advice re: defamation/slander but I'm a lawyer so that's probably my answer to everything...

Other Comments by jamerg

3. Comment #68154 by Shrunk on September 6, 2007 at 8:58 am

 avatarThis seems to be a recurring phenomenon among the religious: Misrepresenting or misconstruing quotations to mean something very different (and often the exact opposite) of what the original writer intended. I often wonder the degree to which this is deliberate. Certainly, the examples RD cites here suggest that Cornwell (of whom I know nothing) is either very stupid or very dishonest. I think the preponderance of the evidence is in favour of the latter (although, of course, the two options are not mutually exclusive.) If the religious are indeed resorting to such duplicitous tactics, it may be a sign that even they are beginning to realize that there are no valid arguments to be made in defense of their beliefs.

In other instances, however, it is not clear to me whether any deliberate misrepresentation is occurring. I'm sure we have all had arguments with fundamentalists where it seems that they are simply not grasping what we are saying. I often wonder if fundamentalists actually have an impaired ability to comprehend abstract thought, to understand irony or sarcasm. This is, after all, how they approach their religious texts: The written words mean exactly what they say. There is no such thing as allegory, context is irrelevent.

If this is true, it would be interesting to find out if there are specific cognitive deficits in verbal comprehension that predispose to fundamentalism. Or, alternatively, if the fundamendalist mindset becomes so engrained that it begins to affect how people read all texts, not just "sacred" ones.

Other Comments by Shrunk

4. Comment #68155 by Jack Rawlinson on September 6, 2007 at 8:58 am

 avatarThese are some of the latest examples of the tiresome but traditional tactic of the religious apologist: to shamelessly twist, misrepresent and - sometimes - tell outright lies about what atheists say, believe and argue. They do this for a very simple reason: it's so much easier to beat straw men than real ones.

I've long been used to it in my battles with the religious and their defenders, and it's annoying but sadly predictable to see it happening in print with regard to the contents of TGD and the other recent "New Atheist" works.

We just have to keep nailing them whenever and wherever they appear, as you've done here. It's a constant game of Whack-a-Mole!

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

5. Comment #68156 by Dutch_labrat on September 6, 2007 at 9:03 am

 avatarLying for Jesus. Someone really should write a book with that title. Either a very vitriolic atheist or an honest christian apologist (if such a thing exists.)

Other Comments by Dutch_labrat

6. Comment #68158 by BicycleRepairMan on September 6, 2007 at 9:09 am

 avatar
Wow. I just listened to the Today Programme was was genuinely scandalised - I can't imagine how Richard felt.


I just did the same thing, and I couldnt believe it, its one thing if the excerpts Dawkins here pulls from his book were Cornwells occasional blunders, something I could possibly forgive, but hearing him accuse Dawkins of this ridiculous nonsense on air it makes me downright angry, I just have one thing to say about such deceptive nonsense, and I cant think of a nicer way of putting it:

What an asshole.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

7. Comment #68159 by epeeist on September 6, 2007 at 9:10 am

 avatarThere have been a number of comments here and in the forums on this mornings interview. I think mine was the most generous, I called Cornwell intellectually dishonest.

I think you are wrong in assuming that your critics are reading your books with prejudice. I think what they are actually doing is actively looking for content which they can exploit to your disadvantage. In brief, they are trying to discredit you, or at the least shut you up.

I don't know how you get around this except by removing any trace of ambiguity or humour from your books and interviews. This would of course play straight into their hands, it would lead to dullness and who reads or takes any notice of a dull book?

I think one of the ways forward is to assume that your position on religion is known and try to explore how society can move forward with this in mind. How do we ensure a moral civic society whose members can see through the many falsities that beset them.

Incidentally - I think by his behaviour Cornwell showed that their isn't that much difference between the moderate and extremist religite.

Other Comments by epeeist

8. Comment #68163 by Geraint on September 6, 2007 at 9:19 am

No doubt clunking sarcasm about a position your opposite number doesn't hold, like

Tell that to a teenager dying of cancer, and his family.


is what passes for featherlight footwork among theists.

Other Comments by Geraint

9. Comment #68169 by The author on September 6, 2007 at 9:23 am

 avatar"You refer to believers as "faith sufferers", and you refer to you and your associates as "we doctors"."

As our treatment is voluntary, it's the choice of believers if they want to be cured of nonsensicality or not. In Cornwell's case I'd recommend a double dose.

Other Comments by The author

10. Comment #68170 by Teratornis on September 6, 2007 at 9:30 am

 avatarWell, who can be surprised when a religious person tells a lie? Religion is founded on a lie: the claim that believing in something makes it true. And not just "something," but a fantastically detailed theology, which claims to reveal the nature of God in depth (a contradiction in terms itself, because if God is supernatural, that means he cannot have a "nature" in the ordinary sense - something is "natural" if humans can perceive order and predictability in it, getting to "know" it, understanding its "nature." If God has a "nature" then God is "natural" just like the rocks, trees, and other things we can comprehend.) Compulsive gamblers test the efficacy of faith every day (betting because they believe they will win) and find it wanting each time the laws of probability assert themselves. Given the amount of utter nonsense and moral obscenity in holy books such as the Bible, consider the sacrifice of honesty a person has to make to consider it divinely inspired, while systematically struggling to interpret away all the awkward parts. So, rather than be surprised when we see yet more misinterpretation by a professional misinterpreter, we should expect the believer to continue doing what he has been trained to do, and therefore we must craft our words more carefully than the Bible authors did, to make them harder to misinterpret.

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11. Comment #68171 by TrashcanMan79 on September 6, 2007 at 9:30 am

Lying for Jesus. Someone really should write a book with that title. Either a very vitriolic atheist or an honest christian apologist (if such a thing exists.)


There is a book, though not with that title, that does expose Evangelical deceit in their so-called 'counter-cult' ministries. *According to wikipedia* the author is agnostic.

http://www.amazon.com/Bearing-False-Witness-Introduction-Countercult/dp/0275974596/ref=sr_1_4/002-7495456-1969621?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189095435&sr=1-4

See if your library has a copy. I couldn't imagine anyone willing to shell out $80 for it.

Best.

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12. Comment #68173 by drive1 on September 6, 2007 at 9:37 am

 avatar9th Commandment, isn't it .. Thou shalt not bear false witness? I believe I hear the faint crackle of Mr Cornwell's polyester trousers bursting into flame.

Richard, bearing in mind Mr Humphry's recent article declaring his distaste for atheistic certainty, the distressing falsehoods of Mr Cornwell, the technical failure, and the shortage of time, this listener thinks you handled the situation with admirable calmness and clarity.

However, now that apologists know that playing the man, not the ball (a classic political trick) makes 'good copy', expect more of the same. Have a chat with Hitch (or a seasoned performer like Derren Brown) and get some good 'anti-heckler' ad-libs in your armoury.

Other Comments by drive1

13. Comment #68175 by Daniel_Greenwood on September 6, 2007 at 9:41 am

 avatarI recently participated in a debate between different schools about darwin related issues for Shrewsbury's 'Darwin Day'. I was surprised at how many people mentioned Richard Dawkins in their presentations, and how many gave unrepresentative quotes. Two groups even claimed evolution was just random chance, something I enjoyed pointing out was not! We are all under 16 so not the best informed, but generally I think that people's ideas are being misrepresented in many fields.

Does anyone have a youtube link to the today show episode which seems to have cropped up often?

Other Comments by Daniel_Greenwood

14. Comment #68176 by jimbob on September 6, 2007 at 9:43 am

This gives me the opportunity to post what I wrote privately to RD a few days ago. What about the idea (below) Richard?

It has often amazed me that the more that religious folks thump their bibles claiming god as the source of morality, and the 10 commandments as holy law -- then the more likely they are to ignore #9 in the decalogue by deceiving, distorting, or just plain lying to support their dogma (In the US the religious right do this all the time to advance their political agendas).

Thus, my suggestion is to have a dedicated section on the website. Maybe call it the "Oops, there goes #9 again" section?

My feeling is that such a section would bring considerable attention to both the invalidity and hypocrisy of claiming religion as the basis for morality.

(Hey Hitch, if RD doesn't like the idea, then how about using it as the title of an article?)

Other Comments by jimbob

15. Comment #68178 by Richard Dawkins on September 6, 2007 at 9:46 am

Lying for Jesus. Someone really should write a book with that title.

The Australian geologist Ian Plimer (quite a hero) has written a fine book called Telling Lies for God.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

16. Comment #68180 by Northern Bright on September 6, 2007 at 9:49 am

 avatarSomeone on another thread (sorry - can't remember who) has already flagged up the parallel with the wonderful Far Side cartoon:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/images/larson_what_dogs_hear.jpg

It's beautifully apt. My dog, too, has the knack of selective (mis)understanding. "Poppy, come here" when I've just put my boots on to take her for a walk can be depended upon, it would seem, to be instantly comprehensible. Yet the same words spoken towards the end of her walk regularly result in a look of suspiciously innocent bafflement, which is clearly meant to convey the notion of, "No, sorry, the words seem vaguely familiar, but I can't quite place their meaning just now. It might come to me if I just go and chase this rabbit."

I agree, Richard - John Cornwell does not appear to be either illiterate or particularly stupid, and you write in terms that are not remotely confusing or ambiguous, so it does not seem possible for his version of your arguments to be the result of sincere misunderstanding.

Some of his comments this morning struck me as having gone even further than other misrepresentations I have heard: the implication that you were advocating the sort of persecution last seen in 20s and 30s Germany; the direct accusation that you were inspiring religious hatred; and the impression that religionists should fear for their safety if the sort of secular society advocated by you were ever to come into being. It seemed to me that these comments were coming very close to the point where you would have to challenge them formally.

When I get my copy of Cornwell's book, I'm planning to go through it line by line and cross-reference it to what's really written in TGD. Two columns: "What Dawkins wrote" and "What Cornwell claims Dawkins wrote", and post it on this forum for reference.

I've just re-read Salley Vickers' review in the light of Cornwell's performance this morning, and I have to say it now seems even more bizarre. Did he display "featherlight footwork"? [EDIT: Sorry Geraint - I hadn't seen your remark when I wrote mine.] Did he come across as "deliciously wise, witty and intellectually sharp into the bargain"? Can we imagine him in the guise of a "gracefully admonishing seraph"? Or being entitled to protest at the use of "violently biased language"?

There's more than one way of being deluded, it would seem.

Other Comments by Northern Bright

17. Comment #68181 by jonecc on September 6, 2007 at 9:52 am

I think something slightly subtler may be going on.

There was a cleric whose name I'm afraid I forget, who gave some sermons a few months ago against RD that were reproduced in here. In one of them, he said that the religious experience was less like science than like literary analysis. I think he used the specific analogy of Shakespeare. It struck me at the time that this is a useful insight into the religious mindset.

When religious people think, particularly the less literal kind that we often label moderates, they don't seem to analyse as such. Instead, they weave dense webs of allusion in which anything can mean virtually anything else, and the experience of saying it or thinking it is of more interest than its truth value.

They imagine that we are incapable of weaving such webs, which is the basis of suggestions like the one made by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown the other day that we simply don't see the beauty in a seascape. What they don't understand is that actually we can weave them perfectly well, but we choose to keep the techniques of literary criticism for literary criticism. When we want to establish what is true, we use the techniques of establishing what is true, and when we want to watch the sea we probably do something fairly similar to what she does, but without the tooth fairies.

When RD argues, he means something precise by everything he says. His clarity of exposition had a profound effect on me when I first read The Blind Watchmaker twenty years ago. People of a spiritual bent just don't see that precision, which is the mark of a mind which has been through a certain kind of training, any more than you can just intuitively get car mechanics if you've never stuck your hand under a bonnet.

They grasp onto RD's words as if they were lines in a play, and throw them into a big melting pot, from which they pull them out as required. They do this to his words because they do it to everybody's, including each other's. We see straw men, and mendacity, where there may only be inadequate training in the rigour of proper argument.

Or maybe he's just a big lying liar, of course.

Other Comments by jonecc

18. Comment #68182 by toomanytribbles on September 6, 2007 at 9:56 am

 avataralternative source http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBMJbJ6WmZQ

sounds to me a lot like panic.

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19. Comment #68183 by hungarianelephant on September 6, 2007 at 9:56 am

 avatarOn the bright side, doesn't it show just how desperate the religites are becoming that they have to resort to these tactics? The edifice is crumbling.

Cornwell's original article reminded me of Jill Paton-Walsh's novel Knowledge of Angels. Although unlike Palinor, no one really wants to burn Richard Dawkins. (Maybe the Hitch.)

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

20. Comment #68184 by Ophelia Benson on September 6, 2007 at 9:58 am

"Does Cornwell seriously imagine that I would applaud Social Darwinism? Nobody nowadays applauds Social Darwinism, and I have been especially outspoken in my condemnation of it (see, for example, the title essay that begins A Devil's Chaplain)."

Funny you should mention it - I've quoted from that article more than once at Butterflies and Wheels precisely in disputing outbursts of windbaggery from people who insist on just this kind of misreading. Over and over and over again I have pointed out, through gritted teeth (okay on a gritted keyboard then), that Dawkins has said that as a biologist he's a Darwinian and as a moralist he's an anti-Darwinian, as was Darwin; and then I quote from that article and from the Darwin letter. But people go on and on and on making the identical false accusation. (Not that I expect them to see my efforts, but the endless recycling of a stupid tendentious evidence-defying piece of nonsense does get very irksome, to put it mildly.)

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21. Comment #68185 by dbunker on September 6, 2007 at 9:59 am

I don't know why we continue to expect a different kind of response from the intelligent and educated than from the willfully ignorant. When people are forced to examine strongly held beliefs, the reaction is often anger. The difference between them seems to be in the tools they use to fight back. I'm more comfortable with the raised voices and profanity I sometimes recieve than the apparently cold blooded misrepresentation of TGD that Cornwell seems capable of.

Other Comments by dbunker

22. Comment #68186 by Teratornis on September 6, 2007 at 10:09 am

 avatarTo elaborate on the professional misinterpreter theme just a bit, Prof. Dawkins should take some pride in sharing company with the very Son of God! Because what the professional misinterpreters do to Prof. Dawkins' words is not unlike what they do to the inconvenient sayings of Jesus. When Jesus states in plain English (or Aramaic) bothersome commands such as to take no thought for the morrow, to cut off one's hand if it causes one to sin, to give all one's possessions to the poor as the price of entry to the kingdom of heaven, that Jesus came not to bring peace but a sword, etc., a whole army of faithful equivocators sets to work telling us how Jesus did not really say what he plainly said. So all the same machinery of rhetorical tricks (which works so well on audiences unschooled in critical thought, who generally wouldn't recognize a logical fallacy let alone know its name in Latin) that dispatches Jesus so neatly should have no trouble with a mere professor.

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23. Comment #68189 by Jack Rawlinson on September 6, 2007 at 10:14 am

 avatarhungarianelephant: thanks for giving the wonderful "Knowledge of Angels" a mention. That's a superb novel and I can't recommend it highly enough. It's certainly one that atheists will appreciate.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

24. Comment #68195 by Northern Bright on September 6, 2007 at 10:23 am

 avatar@jonecc
When religious people think, particularly the less literal kind that we often label moderates, they don't seem to analyse as such. Instead, they weave dense webs of allusion in which anything can mean virtually anything else, and the experience of saying it or thinking it is of more interest than its truth value.

I think that is an incredibly perceptive post, jonecc. That makes perfect sense to me (a former Christian). Christians claim to base their understanding of God on how he reveals himself in the Bible; but, of course, they all interpret that "revelation" in different ways, and at the end of the filtering process they all manage to be left with the bits that best accord with whatever image of God they started out with anyway.

This is why Christians can (with unimpeachable sincerity in many cases) use the Bible to prove anything at all: that God is loving, that God is angry, that God is endlessly forgiving, that God is vengeful and jealous and not the sort of guy you'd want to bump into in a dark alley; that there is a hell; that there isn't a hell; that salvation only comes through faith; that salvation comes through faith + works; that God longs to punish us; that God longs to forgive us ...

Each individual Christian makes God in his or her own image, and then naturally homes in on the passages in the Bible that reinforce that image, and relegates any contradictory passages to the mental filing cabinet labelled "metaphor".

So yes: when they read TGD, they are performing the same kind of (quite possibly subconscious) filtering. A mind that has mastered the art of transforming "I command you to slaughter every last one of them ..." into "God is all-good and loving" is in a good position to perform a kind of reverse alchemy on "Labelling children by the religious affiliations of their parents is a form of abuse."

Hmm, you've given me a lot to think about there ...

(None of this is intended to let Cornwell off the hook, mind you - as a journalist and historian, you may be sure he knows EXACTLY what he's doing where words are concerned.)

Other Comments by Northern Bright

25. Comment #68197 by waxwings on September 6, 2007 at 10:28 am

 avatarWhen defending the imaginary, one often must choose an imaginary opponent. Straw men are critical to apologetics for this reason.

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26. Comment #68198 by robotaholic on September 6, 2007 at 10:30 am

 avatarIf I were personally quoted and misrepresentated I'd be irritated also. However this kind of thing is very common:
I remember a book "Life - How did it get here? By Evolution or by Creation" by Jehovah's Witnesses and they kept using examples which misrepresented evolution claiming it only depended on chance (jabbing a stick into a stereo and asking Do you think this will make the stereo play better? - of course not - that is what mutation can be likened to) - of course it said nothing about evolution by natural selection... and I used to think most religious people just couldn't understand evolution - but in retrospect - no they were just lying and deliberately misrepresenting evolution. Violating if you will #9. lol - the reading of it is very annoying - I can only imagine if I MYSELF were misquoted and then reading THAT!

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27. Comment #68199 by steve99 on September 6, 2007 at 10:30 am

 avatarI agree with jonecc, but I think there is something else more important going on as well. I think this is a matter of self-delusion. Believers often have a feelings towards their religion that is much like love... some may have a mild feeling like this, as if religion is an old family friend, but for others religion is like a new lover, and their feelings are intense. Just imagine what it is like trying to persuade someone that their love is false and corrupt. What you will get is a hostile reaction; you will get disbelief, and people will clutch at all sorts of straws to not quite hear what you are saying, or to accuse you of lying or falsifying evidence.

I think this is precisely what we are seeing with articles and comments from people like Cornwell.

Other Comments by steve99

28. Comment #68200 by John P on September 6, 2007 at 10:31 am

 avatar
Oops, there goes #9 again


Here's my contribution to this:

On a blog recently, a particularly tenacious theist, who claims he's actually a Ph.D. chemist, though I have my doubts, consistently made this statement:

"Science and atheist (sic) has led Richard Dawkins to state that it is better to molest a child that to take him to Sunday School."

Now, we pointed out to him, by citing the appropriate page #, that you did not say that in The God Delusion. But it's like knocking your head against a brick wall. He continued to say the same thing.

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29. Comment #68201 by Friend Giskard on September 6, 2007 at 10:34 am

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Willful Mendacity

Why the Latinate periphrasis? Just call him a liar. Since he demostrably is a liar, to do so should be quite lawyer-proof.

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30. Comment #68204 by jimbob on September 6, 2007 at 10:53 am

More on "Oops there goes #9 again!"

To reinforce the idea, here is a link to a likely rich source of material:

http://www.patrobertson.com/PressReleases/tenoffenses.asp

An example from that source: "The Ten Offenses: Reclaim the Blessings of the Ten Commandments, asserts that America was founded as a Christian nation and that recent efforts to deny or revise that fact are dangerous to our society."

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31. Comment #68206 by Haymoon on September 6, 2007 at 10:56 am

 avatarOne should not be surprised at "misinterpretation" by the religious. After all, isn't this what they do with their own "scripture" all the time, interpreting it in all sorts of different ways to suit current circumstances. For example when one takes from a passage the plain obvious meaning (which may be ludicrous) they say "Oh, no, no. It doesn't mean that at all. Here is the correct interpretation......". And that is probably a different interpretation that their co-religionists gave say 100 years ago. They even have a technical name for it: exegesis.
They have vivid and fertile imaginations. After all, they ARE deluded.

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32. Comment #68208 by Northern Bright on September 6, 2007 at 11:03 am

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Why the Latinate periphrasis? Just call him a liar. Since he demostrably is a liar, to do so should be quite lawyer-proof.

Mendacity is a magnificently contemptuous word. It makes "lying" sounds almost honourable by comparison.

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33. Comment #68211 by Theocrapcy on September 6, 2007 at 11:15 am

 avatarCornwell is a bellicose fool.

Setting up straw men and misrepresenting Richard's arguments against religion is nothing short of sinister.

Don't be fooled by Cornwell, his bent is singular - that he is insulted that his belief in God is being attacked. Unfortunately for him he is facing a tougher opposition who's armour is the bullet-proof vest of reason.

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34. Comment #68217 by EgoSumNemo on September 6, 2007 at 11:34 am

 avatarCornwell is talking bull**it. Listened to that radio interview...or parts of it. I turned it off after a while since I felt all Cornwell said was total and utter Bull*hit. Richard made an as good debate as he could have considering Cornwell. You can't beat religious bullshit with reason. No matter how well you argue.

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35. Comment #68220 by Yorker on September 6, 2007 at 12:03 pm

 avatar19. Comment #68181 by jonecc

Your post reminds me strongly of the time Feynman was accused by an artist friend of being unable to appreciate the beauty of a flower. Feynman said he appreciated the flower's beauty in the same way but at a much deeper level, not just the one centimeter artists view but the one centimeter right down to the one nanometer view of the physicist. There's beauty at all levels.

A similar thing seems to be going on with religites of a certain flavour, they think they're ability to see the "truth" is better than that of non-believers, I think their love of being in love with themselves blinds them to actual truth. Even intelligent religites (oxymoron?) seem remarkably silly sometimes and I can't fully support the compartmentalisation idea, I think that's being too kind. Perhaps the embedded god virus really does prevent the firing of neurons critical to rationality, or better yet, hijacks pathways and keywords like a computer virus and makes sure that god code gets executed preferentially, causing the mouth to spasmodically spurt bullshit.

It's difficult to be certain about Cornwell, the evidence isn't strong enough to convict him.

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36. Comment #68223 by Flagellant on September 6, 2007 at 12:20 pm

 avatarOne must presume that Cornwell is a scientist. He is, after all, 'Director of the Science and Human Dimension Project at Jesus College, Cambridge'. This makes him more likely to be a terminological inexactitudinarian than a poor misguided boy... Unless, of course, words have different meanings at The Other Place.




Positively and undeniably: god is grott, merdeiful.

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37. Comment #68224 by amanda marie on September 6, 2007 at 12:21 pm

 avatarThe wildly blatant misrepresentation of Dawkins's statements (or Harris's or Hitchens's, for that matter) isn't some latent trend - it's the only course available to a religious person when confronted with something as inarguably practical as the lack of belief in the supernatural.

No Believer will ever Ever win a debate with a Nonbeliever and they know this very well by now. Their only option is to skew our words into something with which they can weakly spar, in hopes of putting up the appearance they're saying something subtantive. It's so very pathetic, really.

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38. Comment #68225 by jaytee_555 on September 6, 2007 at 12:29 pm

"If God does not exist then everything is permitted"

Cornwell seems to think that even if God DOES exist, lying is permitted.

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39. Comment #68228 by Dr Benway on September 6, 2007 at 12:31 pm

 avatarThere's a reason hearsay ought not be taken seriously.

Anytime a journalist allows an interviewee to represent a third party's position, that third party ought to have the opportunity to weigh in somehow. Particularly if the third party seems to be promoting something shocking or ignorant.

At a minimum, the interviewer ought to ask, "Have you spoken to Mr. X, and has he confirmed that your representation of his position is accurate?"

Even when the third party's words are written; there ought to be some effort to confirm that those words truly reflect what the person meant to say.

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40. Comment #68230 by doodinthemood on September 6, 2007 at 12:39 pm

I wish both sides would stop throwing down pedophilia as an evil absolute.

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41. Comment #68231 by gordon on September 6, 2007 at 12:50 pm

 avatarJust got in from work. I've been seething all day since listening to the Today programme this morning. I was so angry I hit my hand with a hammer and have the blood blister to prove it! Cornwell cannot have read the God Delusion or if he did he either misunderstood or deliberately twisted it's meaning for his own ends. I've never been so upset by an interview before. A little more time would have allowed Richard to take him apart with his (Cornwells) wanton use of presumed quotes and references. Is Cornwell anxious for this type of publicity? Is he desperate for attention? What the hell was his point? One can understand someone questioning a position but to come out with such blatant misrepresentation was absolutely unforgivable. I'm still pissed off tonight!

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42. Comment #68232 by gordon on September 6, 2007 at 12:51 pm

 avatarJust got in from work. I've been seething all day since listening to the Today programme this morning. I was so angry I hit my hand with a hammer and have the blood blister to prove it! Cornwell cannot have read the God Delusion or if he did he either misunderstood or deliberately twisted it's meaning for his own ends. I've never been so upset by an interview before. A little more time would have allowed Richard to take him apart with his (Cornwells) wanton use of presumed quotes and references. Is Cornwell anxious for this type of publicity? Is he desperate for attention? What the hell was his point? One can understand someone questioning a position but to come out with such blatant misrepresentation was absolutely unforgivable. I'm still pissed off tonight!

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43. Comment #68233 by Logicel on September 6, 2007 at 12:58 pm

 avatarInstead of professional misinterpretation, I prefer habituated misinterpretation.

There are many problematic levels presented by religious experience: the rabid, murderous extremism, the obsessive/compulsive following of unproven and non-evidential beliefs to the letter, the indoctrination of children, the sloppy, but well cherry-picked dabbling of the moderates--all of these problems are encouraged through the silence of the majority of mental health professionals regarding the mentally/emotionally unhealthy aspects of religion. They, like the rest of society, have been habituated to be silent in their criticism and confrontation with religion.

The more religion is challenged, the more it will be possible to conduct helpful studies regarding it, without being handicapped with the fear and taboo of stepping on religious toes.

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44. Comment #68239 by Northern Bright on September 6, 2007 at 1:21 pm

 avatar
Just got in from work. I've been seething all day since listening to the Today programme this morning. I was so angry I hit my hand with a hammer and have the blood blister to prove it!

To judge from your avatar, Gordon, it's still bleeding ;-)

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45. Comment #68250 by _J_ on September 6, 2007 at 2:08 pm

 avatarNo need to be worried or angry on this one. Richard represented himself extremely well in this interview, giving the sort of clear, unambiguous statements of his position that are rarer than feathered swine among the Today programme's usual political interviewees. Indeed, our interviewer (Edward Stourton, wasn't it?) seemed rather struck by the novelty of such a straight-talking contributor, and immediately turned it back against Cornwell. And rightly so.

Not that Cornwell needed it - he was quite capable of tripping over his own nonsense. To attack Richard for suggesting that 'all religion is potentially extreme' is a strategy that can only work as a cheeky rhetorical device to convince your audience that the word 'potentially' doesn't really matter - Richard is alleged to be tarring all cuddly theists with the stick of fundamentalism. Faced with an attentive opponent and interviewer, Cornell had to seek refuge in emphasising that word 'potential', leaving him with no argument at all. All religions are potentially extreme, just as all people are potentially murderers and all theistic apologists are potentially time-wasting liars.

Another flea demonstrates his book to be unworthy of the shelf space afforded it, and another buttress supports the ever-growing edifice of rational atheism. What does Richard need to do to deal with this sort of thing? Exactly what he is doing. Just keep on making sense.

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46. Comment #68253 by D'Arcy on September 6, 2007 at 2:14 pm

 avatarI have very briefly read through the above comments owing to pressure of time, so apologies if there is repetition.

I heard the interview this morning (Thursday, England), and what struck me was that it was accepted by all parties that Cornwell was not going to question Dawkins about whether or not God existed. Instead he blustered on about paedophilia and what he and Dawkins should be saying about extremists. Not a word about the old bugger in the sky and His guidance. Of course the "virus" of religion was briefly talked about in a rather unsatisfying way. But then what can you expect of a 5 minute 3 person "interview".

In my view, Dawkins was far too accommodating in trying to answer the strawman arguments of Cornwall. He should have taken the broader picture and insisted his opponent put his own point of view on the mess that Cornwell's God has made of this world.

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47. Comment #68254 by The_Stone on September 6, 2007 at 2:14 pm

 avatarI also find it typical, in my experience in talking to and debating believers, that instead of refuting an argument, believers will reword and willfully misinterpret the arguments. Often the reworking seems to be constrained by their own personal knowledge boundaries. Its quite dishonest, but one must be reminded that a believer isnt to be trusted, but cornered and when possible "out-sloganed".

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48. Comment #68259 by Richard Morgan on September 6, 2007 at 2:34 pm

In that wonderful play by Marcel Pagnol: "César",(1937) in the opening scenes Honoré PANISSE is apparently on death's doorstep and is being confessed by the local priest. They go through the Ten Commandments one by one, and when they get to the famous "9th commandment" about bearing false witness - LYING - Honoré confesses to having spent most of his time lying, explaining his sinfulness with the now famous: "If you had to tell the customers the truth all the time, you'd be out of business!"
Clearly the same is true when religites allow themselves to get involved in serious debates - if they had to tell the truth all the time they'd soon be out of arguments. Cornwell lies as they all do. Name of the game. He has to gird up his loins in the woolly underpants of dishonesty in order to avoid having the strong keen wind of reason and truth howling around his goolies.
There are no surprises there.
And since we're talking about French literature, in another scene from the same play, in a beautiful American-English translation, you might appreciate this :
César : "Sometimes I think about something terrible : You see, all those foreigners - the Chinese, the Africans, the Indians, all that billions of people - they all have their own Gods, and those gods are so different from ours... So sometimes at night I think about it and I wonder : "What if our God was not the real one ? What if the real god was African or Indian or something ?" I mean, imagine, you die, you go to heaven, and there you see a God with three eyes and five arms, who speaks to you in some language you don't even understand... What d'you do then ?

Woman: "Bah, if you went to church more often, you would know that there's only one God - ours !

César: "That's okay, our God is the good one, I agree - but that means that in the world, you see, there are billions of people who are getting shafted - and that really pisses me off."


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49. Comment #68270 by Major Bloodnok on September 6, 2007 at 3:16 pm

 avatar
Someone on another thread (sorry - can't remember who) has already flagged up the parallel with the wonderful Far Side cartoon:

That would be me. (Thanks for finding a link to the cartoon - you can't normally find Larson cartoons the interwebs.)

I can't help but wonder if they really do hear things the wrong way - that there are trigger phrases around which they build their viewpoint, whilst the surrounding context becomes just so much noise.

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50. Comment #68272 by mcc on September 6, 2007 at 3:16 pm

I've written to the Today program and requested a rematch, this time with more time and an editor/interviewer who has read the works and can arbitrate more effectively. Anyone else fancy sending them an email? It probably will not change anything, but you never know.

A lot of people seem to think Richard was too nice, I've got to say I'd have liked to see someone work the argument "religion = irrationality, moderate religion = irrationality that currently does not conjure widespread contempt. Being moderate does not in anyway legitimise the rationality of the position." in front of the Radio 4 audience, particularly as thought for the day (I can hear the sound of spluttering into cornflakes even as I type!) :-)

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