Thursday, September 6, 2007 | Reason : Political | print version

Creationism raised as Ont. election issue

by Globe and Mail

Thanks to everyone who sent this in.

Reposted from:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070905.wtoryrelig0905/BNStory/National/home

TORONTO — Publicly-funded religious schools would be allowed to teach creationism and other theories, says Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory.

Speaking to reporters at the a Jewish day school in Thornhill, Ont., on Wednesday, Mr. Tory defended his plan to bring Jewish, Islamic and other religious schools into the public education system.

"They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs," Mr. Tory said at the Kamin Education Centre.

If elected premier on Oct. 10, Mr. Tory has promised to give private religious schools $400-million if they opt into the public system.

He says that move will subject the schools to provincial inspection, thereby ensuring students receive a more well-rounded education while still allowing schools to teach their core beliefs.

There are about 100 faith-based private schools across the province, with an enrolment of 53,000 students.

"If we want to be genuinely inclusive, then we have to say we're going to include all faiths in public education," he said.

At the moment, only Roman Catholic schools get tax dollars, while other faith-based schools are left out of the funding loop. Mr. Tory said that is unfair and will change if he wins power next month.

But Education Minister Kathleen Wynne – who is running against Mr. Tory for her Toronto seat – said teaching creationism alongside evolution would be a violation of the curriculum.

She said Catholic schools are allowed to explore creationism but only in religion – not science – classes.

Ms. Wynne says Mr. Tory's comments show that he has not really thought out his policy and is just distracting from the real need to invest more in the existing public-education system.

"The reason that private schools exist is that they don't want to be part of the publicly funded system," she said.

"In terms of the public dollars, those public dollars should go into a curriculum that has been agreed upon as being the one that is the best for our kids and is rooted in science and is rooted in evidence."

The funding of religious education has fast become one of the main issues in the campaign for the upcoming provincial election. Mr. Tory promised to fund Jewish, Islamic and other religious schools, a move Premier Dalton McGuinty said would threaten the stability of the public education system.

Mr. Tory said he has listened to discussion on the topic for 30 years, and says this is the right time to address the issue.

If elected, he said his first year in office would be spent consulting with education groups and other organizations on how to include private religious schools in the public education system.

With files from Canadian Press

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1. Comment #68290 by fatcitymax on September 6, 2007 at 4:09 pm

"Publicly-funded religious schools..." What the heck is going on in Canada? I thought they were smarter than their southern neighbor.

Other Comments by fatcitymax

2. Comment #68291 by jimbob on September 6, 2007 at 4:09 pm

Thank you Jefferson and Madison for sparing us this nonsense!

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3. Comment #68293 by Breadbin on September 6, 2007 at 4:16 pm

Horrifying. I live in Ontario and although I'm not a Canadian citizen and hence can't vote, I know for a fact my wife will definitely be voting against the "Progressive" Conservatives. She would have even without reading this story but now we'll be motivated to show it to everyone we can between now and Oct 10th.

Incidentally we were just talking about the private faith-based boarding school a few hundred yards from us which recently closed down. The official story was that it went bankrupt but there have since been allegations in the local paper of serious abuse by teachers and staff in the 70s and 80s.

http://newsfeed.recorder.ca/cgi-bin/LiveIQue.acgi$rec=23597

"Among the behaviour described in the Globe articles are so-called "light sessions" where students would be roused from sleep and taken to a room where a bright light was shined in their faces as unseen people accused them of being sinners."

Truly shameful things done in the name of religion. The sad thing is I wasn't in the least bit surprised.

Other Comments by Breadbin

4. Comment #68295 by Johnny O on September 6, 2007 at 4:21 pm

"They teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs

Only Christian beliefs? Surely if this is being done in the name of a varied education we should bring in all creation theories?

But Education Minister Kathleen Wynne – who is running against Mr. Tory for her Toronto seat – said teaching creationism alongside evolution would be a violation of the curriculum.

Briliiantly put. We have to hope that she gets in and by a massive majority to so the people of Ontario show these people that they have no foothold there.

Other Comments by Johnny O

5. Comment #68302 by JSW on September 6, 2007 at 6:41 pm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070906.wontschools06/BNStory/National/home

Tory is backpedaling on this statement now.

A bit of a relief, but still not enough to keep me from voting Liberal.

Other Comments by JSW

6. Comment #68304 by Linda on September 6, 2007 at 6:50 pm

The Green Party advocates eliminating the Roman Catholic School Board and thereby having a single public education system that is free of religious superstition. That would move would offer a huge tax saving and maybe it would be possible to reduce tuition fees for higher education. If only a candidate would run in my riding.

John Tory claims to mis-speak and be misunderstood. Haven't we had enough trouble caused in the world by GW Bush another conservative who also can't make a public statement without coming across as either stupid or dangerous?

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7. Comment #68305 by Shrunk on September 6, 2007 at 6:55 pm

"Publicly-funded religious schools..." What the heck is going on in Canada? I thought they were smarter than their southern neighbor.

The public funding of Catholic schools in Canada is largely a historic anachronism. It arose in response to fears of the (predominately Catholic)French minority, at the time of Confederation, that their culture would be lost amidst the English majority. To address these fears, the establishment of separate Protestant and Catholic school systems was enshrined in the British North America Act, the de facto Canadian constitution at the time. The Protestant system eventually evolved into the secular main public system, but the Catholic system has survived, at least in Ontario.

As it happens, opinion polls generally show the public favours scrapping the Catholic system, if only because of the inefficiency of funding two separate systems. However, to date it has been too hot a potato for politicians to handle. Ironically, by putting the issue on the table, Tory may actually spur the elimination of publicly funded religious schools.

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8. Comment #68311 by Crazymalc on September 6, 2007 at 7:19 pm

This further emphasises to me why Dan Dennett is onto such a winning idea of compulsory religious education.

In "Religion Class" (not "Faith Class") every aspect of every religion is taught. These would get more and more indepth as the kids age. Start with basic tennants of Christianity, Judaism et. all. This would demisifty each of the religions, and allow the kids to see the outrageous claims each of them make. I think the kids would come to the conclusion that all religions are just as absurd and we're better off without them.

And let's obviously not teach religion in Science classrooms.

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9. Comment #68322 by neander on September 6, 2007 at 8:08 pm

Yes, Daniel Dennet's idea has merit. Otherwise, its wellcome to the dark ages.
Is there a possability that if Tory's idea goes though, that subsequent governemats could control the private schools and actually remove their religious content?

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10. Comment #68324 by Spinoza on September 6, 2007 at 8:14 pm

I agree with Crazymalc (that is to say, I agree with Dennett).

I am also a resident of Ontario and I went to a Catholic highschool AS AN ATHEIST.

They didn't require that I be Catholic (I think I was able to get in because my mother is a lapsed Catholic... LOL).

In any case, I've never been Catholic, but I got a better education at an Ontario Catholic highschool than I would have at the public school I was supposed to go to.

With the exception of random MANDATORY masses (which I eventually managed to figure out how to skip out on, after going to a few as an impartial observer)... their teachers tended to be far better than the public school counterparts.

And interestingly enough, my religion teachers sort of "under-the-table" told us most of what the Vatican says is B.S.

Grade 11, we had the choice to take WORLD RELIGION. Which many people did, including myself.

And in Grade 12, we got the choice of religion OR PHILOSOPHY (yes, it had a slightly CATHOLIC bent to it... but by no means did we skimp on the LOGIC or the existentialists, or the various philosophy of religion and ethical debates concerning religion... of which I was often the lone bastion of rationality (which made it all the more interesting). Oh, and the public schools often don't even offer philosophy (THEY DAMNED WELL SHOULD).

However, clearly these discrepancies in standards are not a result of Catholicism inculcating academics...

I think it just happens to be a contingent fact in Ontario.

In any case, it is HIGHLY unlikely that the publicly funded (and yes, highly anachronistic) Catholic school system in Ontario would EVER be abolished... there are far too many Catholics in Ontario (especially outside of the GTA) for that to happen.

So the only way to have EQUALITY is to allow public funding for all PUBLICLY WANTED religiously inclined schools.

BUT, I think many many many caveats should be added...

It is already FAIRLY safe, since the Catholic schools are required to teach the same EXACT curriculum... they just substitute MANDATORY gym class in grade 9 for mandatory religion class.

And like I said, science and philosophy-wise, my school was far far far better than any public school. Much as I admit that to my own chagrin.

So, I think Dennett is absolutely right. Compulsory WORLD religion and religious history/literature classes would be a GREAT thing to institute.

Taught as a history or literature class, not an indoctrination.

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11. Comment #68326 by neander on September 6, 2007 at 8:30 pm

Spinoza, I also got a very good, liberal education in a religious school (as an atheist). But was that a sign of the times? Given the current state of religious evangelism and the present pope we must ask if those schools will stay as you remember. Leaving them alone is really a ticking bomb!

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12. Comment #68328 by Cerberus on September 6, 2007 at 9:07 pm

It would seem the catholic school we had in Québec were quite different. In primary school (or elementary if you prefer), everyone had 1 hour a week of religion (catholic of course). Religion was the default choice but we could choose to have "moral" taugh instead of religion (yes, taht was the actual name of the class). Around 10% of the school had "moral" only. We never had to go to mass or anything either.

In secondary school, we had 2-3 hours or religion or moral again, except this time, half the school chose moral now (or rather, their parents let them).

Now, however, faith school in Québec have all been pretty much abolished and now children have (or will have) classes on the major religions in the world, so it's kinda like a class on the history of religion. I guess we now have what Dennett is proposing.

Also, every school has to follow the government approve curriculum, which means you have to teach evolution, if you don't, the school will be closed down.

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13. Comment #68374 by NMcC on September 7, 2007 at 3:10 am

Leaving aside the serious element of this article, I'm somewhat perturbed that there's a Conservative politician in Canada named 'Mr Tory'.

What do you call the headmaster of the local faith school? 'Mr Dopey?'

What do you call Mr Tory's son? 'Tory Boy?' - Harry Enfield, eat your heart out!

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14. Comment #68394 by Shrunk on September 7, 2007 at 4:05 am

Leaving aside the serious element of this article, I'm somewhat perturbed that there's a Conservative politician in Canada named 'Mr Tory'.

It is an ironic coincidence. He ran unsuccessfully for mayor of Toronto a few years ago, and I'm convinced that his surname cost him votes, if only on a subconscious level, in this largely left-leaning city.

A (big C) Conservative in Canada is not quite the same thing as a conservative in the USA, and Tory is generally a moderate on social issues. His statement on creationism seems out of character. However, there are always social conservatives within his party who pull some weight in policy making.

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15. Comment #68396 by tangerine_tree on September 7, 2007 at 4:09 am

I also agree that its a good idea for schools to teach, or rather make known, all the worlds religion.
In my 10 yr old sons school they get have a class called "Religious and Moral Education" - which I object to as I do not see the link.

Other Comments by tangerine_tree

16. Comment #68401 by CJ22 on September 7, 2007 at 4:33 am

The leader of the conservatives is called Mr. "Tory"?? Hahah.

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17. Comment #68403 by Mat on September 7, 2007 at 4:54 am

No, no, no, the politicians have got it all wrong AGAIN!

"At the moment, only Roman Catholic schools get tax dollars, while other faith-based schools are left out of the funding loop."

ALL faith-based schools should be cut out of the funding loop, for [insert-deity-of-choice]'s sake!

Anyway, teach religion, by all means. It's interesting stuff. Important stuff, too. It's just that the claims that all religions make can simply not be shown to be "true." So you shouldn't teach it in science classes. Full stop.

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18. Comment #68454 by ThomasB on September 7, 2007 at 7:55 am

John Tory's statement that "It's still called the theory of evolution," echoes George W. Bush's faith-based assertion that the "jury is out" on the merits of the subject.

It should be noted that John Tory's scientific literacy was not shaped by the publicly funded school system.

Perhaps a failing grade should be given to his science teachers at UTS, a private school in Toronto.

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19. Comment #68487 by Ultraviolet G on September 7, 2007 at 9:16 am

Good points from Crazymalc & Spinoza (and Dennett).

One small but useful bit of vocabulary:

TENANTS = people who rent a building.

TENETS = principles, beliefs and dogma.

Especially when some of the people you are debating / talking with may not know what "tenets" are, it's good to have the right word in case they want to look it up in order to understand your arguments better.

(Yeah right... I think John Cornwell has shown us how likely that actually is).

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20. Comment #68500 by mdowe on September 7, 2007 at 10:15 am

I'd worry more, but haven't the Progressive-Conservatives been politically extinct in Canada since the 1980's?? Is there any chance they will win anything, anywhere? Somehow I doubt it ... it sounds like they have sunk to new levels of desperation. Anybody from Ontario reading this forum? (Silly me, looks like there are several Ontarians!)

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21. Comment #68508 by Spinoza on September 7, 2007 at 11:04 am

@ Ultraviolet G:

Who used the word "tenant"?

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22. Comment #68511 by SRWB on September 7, 2007 at 11:18 am

The PC party is alive and well, at the provincial level across Canada. The federal PC party disappeared into what is now the Conservative party (at that level).

This latest stunt is the sort of nonsense that pisses me off. While Tory has opened a can of worms, the current premier, McGuinty, a devout Catholic, has only selfish reasons for maintaining the status quo. The only sensible solution is to get rid of all separate school funding and put all education under one umbrella. Any sect wishing "religious" education should pay out of pocket, preferably not mine!

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23. Comment #68531 by atheist_peace on September 7, 2007 at 12:53 pm

"What the heck is going on in Canada? I thought they were smarter than their southern neighbor."

In this case, it is only in Ontario. Other provinces, like British Columbia, don't have this problem.

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24. Comment #68532 by atheist_peace on September 7, 2007 at 12:57 pm

Also, please check out One School System Network, a group who is against the segregated school system. http://www.onessn.org/

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25. Comment #68552 by Eric Blair on September 7, 2007 at 3:10 pm

As anyone who has lived in Ontario can tell you, the contradiction between public money going to separate schools but not other faith-based schools is a real can of worms but sooner or later it has to be dealt with -- but probably later. The best solution is to merge the RC system with the public system but that won't be a slam-dunk.

Separate schools in Ontario (and the former "Protestant" schools in Quebec) were legally protected as minority institutions (French and English, respectively) in our founding British North America Act in 1867. That act was superseded by our own constitution in 1982 but no one has dared apply logic to the situation in Ontario. (The nominally Protestant system in Quebec was transformed into an English system in the 1980s that includes Catholics alongside everyone else.)

One problem is the separate system in Ontario no longer represents just French people (in fact, very few French-Canadians) and is almost as big as the public system. It has its own tax base (taxpayers choose which system they want to pay school taxes to), along with govt grants, and it represents millions of dollars in capital and human investment.

Many people see it as better academically than the public system, so it attracts non-RCs. However, it still retains elements of RC instruction and "values" to the extent that some schools will not hire non-RC teachers (despite laws against such discrimination).

I don't think the people of Ontario want to fund other faith-based schools -- which is why Tory is going against the grain here -- but they don't want to take on the task of "dis-establishing" the separate system, either. They'll just let this issue die, and Tory and his party with it.

EB

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26. Comment #68572 by dancingthemantaray on September 7, 2007 at 4:08 pm

Is anyone else loving the fact that the conservative mp is called mr Tory?

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27. Comment #68583 by aquilacane on September 7, 2007 at 4:51 pm

I'm living in Ontario, and as pissed as I am about tax dollars going to Catholic education, there is no chance in reality that I will see another cent of my tax dollars going to promote more dogmatic insanity.

I just wrote John Tory a very irritated letter outlining my objections. The 400 million he proposes to use to fund this program could put religious theory classes in every public school, and leave the private schools to raise their own money, as private schools should. I wonder if Tory would include a completely Atheist based private school among the institutions to recieve cash.

I doubt it.

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28. Comment #68647 by Nefrubyr on September 8, 2007 at 2:20 am

21. Comment #68508 by Spinoza

Who used the word "tenant"?

Actually it was spelled "tennant". But I'm sure the current star of Doctor Who has even less to do with this discussion.

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29. Comment #69895 by hakija on September 13, 2007 at 5:31 am

The tradition of publicly funded parochial schools must have its origin in the established Church of England. Thank goodness our Founders were deists and skeptics of religion.

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