Monday, September 10, 2007 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version

Young Muslims begin dangerous fight for the right to abandon faith

by Times Online, David Charter

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2426314.ece

A group of young Muslim apostates launches a campaign today, the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on America, to make it easier to renounce Islam.

The provocative move reflects a growing rift between traditionalists and a younger generation raised on a diet of Dutch tolerance.

The Committee for Ex-Muslims promises to campaign for freedom of religion but has already upset the Islamic and political Establishments for stirring tensions among the million-strong Muslim community in the Netherlands.

Ehsan Jami, the committee's founder, who rejected Islam after the attack on the twin towers in 2001, has become the most talked-about public figure in the Netherlands. He has been forced into hiding after a series of death threats and a recent attack.

The threats are taken seriously after the murder in 2002 of Pim Fortuyn, an antiimmigration politician, and in 2004 of Theo Van Gogh, an antiIslam film-maker.

Speaking to The Times at a secret location before the committee's launch today, the Labour Party councillor said that the movement would declare war on radical Islam. Similar organisations campaigning for reform of the religion have sprung up across Europe and representatives from Britain and Germany will join the launch in The Hague today.

"Sharia schools say that they will kill the ones who leave Islam. In the West people get threatened, thrown out of their family, beaten up," Mr Jami said. "In Islam you are born Muslim. You do not even choose to be Muslim. We want that to change, so that people are free to choose who they want to be and what they want to believe in."

Mr Jami, 22, who has abandoned his studies as his political career has taken off, denied that the choice of September 11 was deliberately provocative towards the Islamic Establishment. "We chose the date because we want to make a clear statement that we no longer tolerate the intolerence of Islam, the terrorist attacks," he said.

"In 1965 the Church in Holland made a declaration that freedom of conscience is above hanging on to religion, so you can choose whether you are going to be a Christian or not. What we are seeking is the same thing for Islam."

Mr Jami, who has compared the rise of radical Islam to the threat from Nazism in the 1930s, is receiving only lukewarm support from his party which traditionally relies upon Muslim votes. His outspoken attack on radical Islam has led to a prelaunch walk-out from fellow committee founder Loubna Berrada, who herself rejected Islam.

She said: "I don't wish to confront Islam itself. I only want to spread the message that Muslims should be allowed to leave Islam behind without being threatened."

There have been suggestions that Mr Jami might defect to the right-wing Freedom Party, led by Geert Wilders, the most outspoken politician in the Netherlands, who has called for the Koran to be banned. But Mr Jami said: "I have respect for Wilders but we do not have the same ideology. I am for the freedom of religion.

"Banning something is not going to help. I am the opposite – everyone should read the Koran." Mr Jami is being compared to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali refugee who became a prominent Dutch politician campaigning for the reform of Islam but who left eventually for an academic career in the United States.

Jannie Groen, a writer for De Volksrant newspaper, said: "[Among Muslims] he is getting the same reaction as Ayaan Hirsi Ali that he is too confrontational but you are seeing other former Muslims now coming forward. So he has been able to put this issue of apostasy on the agenda, even though they do not want to be in the same room as him and he has had to pay a price."

By the Book

— 14 passages in the Koran refer to apostasy

— According to Baidhawi's commentary, Sura 4: 88-89 reads: "Whosoever turns back from his belief, openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel. Separate yourself from him altogether. Do not accept intercession in his regard."

— The hadith, tradition and legend about Muhammad and his followers used as a basis of Sharia, tells of some atheists who were brought to "'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this reached Ibn Abbas who said: 'If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostate forbade it . . . I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostate, 'Whoever changed his [Islamic] religion, then kill him'."

— According to hadith, a special reward in Paradise is reserved for the killer of apostates

Source: Times archives; Barnabas Fund

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1. Comment #69323 by Richard Dawkins on September 10, 2007 at 10:34 pm

I returned yesterday from a visit to Amsterdam. At the conference there I met a very interesting documentary film-maker, Ingeborg Beugel, who has made a special study of attitudes to women among Islamic immigrants to the Netherlands. Her film on the subject was very controversial. She has sent me three newspaper articles by her, or about her or her film. I suspect that these might be of interest to the English-speaking world, if we could find a volunteer to translate them. I wonder whether we have a Dutch or Flemish volunteer out there who would like to have a look at these articles, with a view to possibly translating them for our website?

Thank you
Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

2. Comment #69326 by MrEmpirical on September 10, 2007 at 10:41 pm

I hope this kind of thing becomes more widespread in Europe. As the Muslim population there grows, it will be important for anti-Islamist groups to be in place.

Other Comments by MrEmpirical

3. Comment #69328 by BAEOZ on September 10, 2007 at 10:49 pm

Brave people, very brave. Especially to want to leave such a peaceful religion.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

4. Comment #69329 by kraut on September 10, 2007 at 11:19 pm

Whosoever supports the hadith in this case is clearly in violation of the european laws of religious freedom and crimes of hate and should be either be dragged before the court or should have to leave the country.

Any immigrant that violates the constitution of the country he settles in by supporting those statements of his/her holy book by deed or word is clearly comitting a criminal act and he should be treated as a criminal.
I am an immigrant myself and would have never dreamt of demanding a special treatment from the country I immigrated to. But it seems that especially those of muslim greed seem to be demanding special excemptions from the laws of the countries they immigrate to - and get away with it.
The last insult here in canada was the attempt to establish sharia law for muslim families in family courts (Ontario, where the nutcase canditate for "president" Mr. Tory tries to establish government funded religious schools and treats creationism as a valid theory). Luckily, despite the idiotic support by some politicians, the attempt went nowhere, after a vocal group of female muslims protested against this move.

Other Comments by kraut

5. Comment #69330 by Spiral on September 10, 2007 at 11:22 pm

Excellent!
I wish him well.

Other Comments by Spiral

6. Comment #69331 by pewkatchoo on September 10, 2007 at 11:29 pm

If they are in Dutch, please feel free to send them to me Richard. I will do my best to translate them and get them back to you as soon as possible. I trust they are not too long though (^8. I am in Holland now, so if I have any difficulties myself I can always ask someone else for confirmation.

I guess that you have my email address.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

7. Comment #69332 by Ian on September 10, 2007 at 11:38 pm

Congratulations to Mr Jami and everyone who has the courage and integrity to stand peacefully for their rights.

I wish the religious would realize that it is futile to legislate people's personal convictions. By definition, you cannot believe what you feel is untrue and because belief occures in the privacy of our heads, it cannot be forced by law.

The fact that the religious cannot respect people's right to disagree really only shows how shallow their own convictions are.

Other Comments by Ian

8. Comment #69334 by GBile on September 10, 2007 at 11:47 pm

She [Loubna Berrada] said: "I don't wish to confront Islam itself. I only want to spread the message that Muslims should be allowed to leave Islam behind without being threatened."

It seems to me that leaving IS the ultimate confrontation of Islam.

From dutch newspapers I understand that more ex-muslims are advocating 'respect' for Islam. I wonder what part of Islam they have in mind. Usama Bin Laden (sbuh) might not be a (the?) prophet but he clearly states that the 'peacefulness' of Islam will be clear for everyone to see, 'after everybody on earth has converted to Islam'.

No thanks.

Other Comments by GBile

9. Comment #69337 by AdrianB on September 11, 2007 at 12:00 am

As the population from the a Muslim background grows within Europe, it is of the utmost importance that there are more people like the brave Mr Jami.

It must always be stressed that any criticism of the Islamic faith is NOT about race, but it is often used to stuff out criticism. Islam must be criticised from within.

Other Comments by AdrianB

10. Comment #69339 by Philip1978 on September 11, 2007 at 12:04 am

This is definitely a step in the right direction and I hope that all Muslim Apostates will eventually gain the right to have the freedom to choose what they want. I think its sickening that people's lives can be torn apart like this all because they dont want to believe in gods anymore.

I have heard some awful stories about how people not only in the Muslim faith have been bullied and persecuted because of their lack of belief. It gives me hope to see people standing up to these dogmatic bullies, whether or not you can change the mind of fundamentalism is a difficult task, but not impossible and I hope they succeed. Change is needed and this is the way forward, its such a pity its such a dangerous thing for these people to be doing.

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

11. Comment #69342 by Corylus on September 11, 2007 at 12:15 am

Mr Jami, 22,

22! Is that right? If so, and he is responding to 9/11, he must have abandoned Islam at 16. Very brave. This shows why the mullahs are terrified of Western influence on their young people.

I sometimes find myself wondering whether that vile troglodyte Bin Laden's actions were as much about fostering division between western muslims and non-muslims as attacking America.

Nothing keeps hatred and terrorism going more than making everyday people pick sides due to 'faith'.

Other Comments by Corylus

12. Comment #69344 by black wolf on September 11, 2007 at 12:23 am

In Germany, sharia law is not officially tolerated as an alternative to federal jurisdiction. But it is secretly in practice, as more than a few muslims shun courts and turn to private 'scholars' instead.

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13. Comment #69349 by HunterZolomon on September 11, 2007 at 1:04 am

Excellent news, I hope this group gets as much media coverage as possible. Get the snowball rolling!

Other Comments by HunterZolomon

14. Comment #69350 by rokort on September 11, 2007 at 1:13 am

Dear Richard,

as a native Dutch speaker you can also send them to me if you like (if only to reduce the burden for pewkatchoo).

When you need another address than my pm let me know.

Other Comments by rokort

15. Comment #69351 by ridelo on September 11, 2007 at 1:13 am

If the text to translate is too long I can also help. Possibly you'll find some 'dutchisms' in the translation but doubtless you'll find somebody to weed them out.

Other Comments by ridelo

16. Comment #69356 by Goldy on September 11, 2007 at 1:23 am

Good luck to him. I was speaking to an Iraqi student today. She was aghast that I was an athiest. She could not believe anyone could not believe in God. I told her I was aghast that she, an Iraqi, knew nothing of Christianity. Nothing at all. Despite Tariq Azziz being a Christian, despite a very sizable Christian minority in Iraq (it is 15% in Syria, incidently) she knew nothing at all about Chritianity. I also told her that was one reason I was an athiest.

Other Comments by Goldy

17. Comment #69359 by alexmzk on September 11, 2007 at 1:49 am

i've been reading articles here for a while now, but i only just signed up specifically so i could comment on this one, to express my sheer admiration for these people.
i'm reading the Koran just now, finding it very hard going. it's amazingly brave for those people to try and speak out for free will and the right to leave Islam. i hope it works.

Other Comments by alexmzk

18. Comment #69364 by RichardPrins on September 11, 2007 at 2:17 am

One more translator available here.

Here's an English article on Ingeborg Beugel and her documentary.

Other Comments by RichardPrins

19. Comment #69366 by Zamboro on September 11, 2007 at 2:20 am

Hats off to them. I wish I could do more to protect them...if one sought shelter in my home I would provide it, no questions asked, for as long as they needed.

Keep fighting you brave young men and women. The future belongs to thinkers like you.

Other Comments by Zamboro

20. Comment #69369 by Spiral on September 11, 2007 at 2:36 am

This raises a question:
Is there a way to support and encourage these people?

Other Comments by Spiral

21. Comment #69376 by sornord on September 11, 2007 at 3:07 am

"Is there a way to support and encourage these people?"

Get them and their stories & movement on television: CNN and other televised news media, attention-getting celebrities supporting the cause.

All must recognize, however, this carries an increased risk to these brave people.

I also note Mr. Jami compares the rise of radical Islam to the rise of Nazism, which I have done for years in private conversations. "Islamo-fascist" is the correct term. Fox News' Bill O'Reilly, love him or hate him, regularly uses this term and has at least nailed this one.

Other Comments by sornord

22. Comment #69377 by Crazymalc on September 11, 2007 at 3:07 am

Good luck and God speed.

Err...

Maybe just good luck

Other Comments by Crazymalc

23. Comment #69382 by nizuri on September 11, 2007 at 3:25 am

The first step to remove religion.

Other Comments by nizuri

24. Comment #69383 by rokort on September 11, 2007 at 3:35 am

Below is my quick and dirty translation (source here) of the letter sent out today from the Committee of Ex-Muslims to fifty politicians, scientists, journalists and writers:

Dear,

The Committee for Ex-Muslims invites you to sign the 'Declaration of Support' now that the establishment of the Committee for Ex-Muslims is here. This declaration will be made public halfway through September at the official presentation of the Committee for Ex-Muslims, with mentioning of all signatories. We hope for at least fifty but rather a hundred signatures.

This invitation will be sent to dozens of Dutch and Belgian people visible in/to society; most of you are known in the area of freedom of religion and life's principles in relation to Islam. We have strived for a reasonable reflection of society: left and right, faith or no faith, Muslims or no Muslims, science, journalism, art, and especially politics. All party chairmen of the The House of Representatives of the States General will get an invitation.

The Committee for Ex-Muslims was established in April by Ehsan Jami and currently has five members. At the same time a committee of recommendation of the Committee for Ex-Muslims was established that, as of the beginning of august, will continue as Support Committee for Ex-Muslims.

The Committee for Ex-Muslims, the name says it already, consists of Ex-Muslims. They stand up for their right to individual freedom with regard to religious and life's principles, a right the Islam doesn't acknowledge.

The Support Declaration with the establisment of the Committee for Ex-Muslims is a sign from society, of people that stand up for that same right, but then especially because one of the ground rules of our society, individual freedom and life's principles, is under heavy pressure.

The declaration also serves to make known to Ex-Muslims they are not alone when standing up for this right. With all other activities of the Committee for Ex-Muslims, amongst which one has to think about criticizing Islam, the signatories of the Declaration of Support have nothing to do. We note that the Ex-Muslims are only named in the title of the Declaration.

The Committee for Ex-Muslims consists of signatories. Not like with the ones we invite to sign the Declaration of Support, there's only been a limited striving for reflection of society when constructing the Committee for Ex-Muslims. The Committee for Ex-Muslims has only a modest function: we mutually agreed about the text of the Declaration of Support and we invite you to sign the Declaration together with us. To make extra clear: if you sign it that's all, you will not be admitted in the Committee for Ex-Muslims.

The Declaration of Support is roughly 1200 words and consists of three parts:
* there's pointing out of a problem, namely fear for retaliation amongst people that are born in an Islamic environment when they want to lead their own way in religion and/or life's principles, for example by changing religion or when becoming an atheist, and wanting to openly testify this.
* a few short references to Dutch legislation, especially the horizontal acion of Article 6, and international law on human rights.
* crude propositions to attack this problem thoroughly and come to a recovery of individual freedom of religion and ones life's principles.

In case you consider to sign we would like to know this asap per email. We then also need a postal address of you. Shortly hereafter you will receive two printed versions of the Declaration via mail together with a stamped return-envelope. When you don't agree with the Declaration you send both copies back. Otherwise sign and return one copy and keep the other one for your own archive. By asking for dispatching of the Declaration you oblige yourself to not spread this till after its publication in September.

Regards,
Committee for Ex-Muslims

…and then comes a list of people in the committee…[rokort]

Other Comments by rokort

25. Comment #69384 by bitbutter on September 11, 2007 at 3:36 am

Another translation volunteer here also (Native english speaker living in the Netherlands), but i guess there are enough already!

This is excellent news.

Other Comments by bitbutter

26. Comment #69386 by pewkatchoo on September 11, 2007 at 4:10 am

One small step forward in the Netherlands, ONE HUGE step backwards into the darkness in the UK.

Just what do the NuLab sh1theads think they are doing, see link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6986398.stm

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

27. Comment #69387 by Henri Bergson on September 11, 2007 at 4:16 am

Good man – I truly hope he has a strong effect.

It's quite notable that he begins his campaign today, at the same time a mass demonstration today in Brussels against the Islamication of Europe has been banned by their mayor.

I suspect that many people from Europe will go anyway, so it may prove interesting to read the news from Brussels tonight.

Other Comments by Henri Bergson

28. Comment #69390 by monoape on September 11, 2007 at 4:32 am

Copied and pasted (with minor edits) from Pharyngula:

Islam, a religion younger than the other Abrahamic faiths, is simply going through the same homicidal and suicidal phase that characterised both early Jews and Christians. The older faiths have had reformations that forced a tiny little degree of tolerance into their philosophies. Islam is simply in the "normal" phase of any young faith, which is a murderous outrage and sense of ultimate entitlement to righteousness, resulting in the deaths of countless thousands.

Happens all the time.

Other Comments by monoape

29. Comment #69405 by USA_Limey on September 11, 2007 at 6:18 am

I know it's just the title of the article, but nevertheless it annoyed me a little - young Dutch muslims already have the right to abandon their faith don't they? That they might be subject to violent reprisals for publicly doing so in a democratic western country is shameful.

This is just symptomatic of a wider malaise in my view. That we even need to have campaigns like this is representative of just how much we have been asleep at the wheel whilst fundamentalist Islam chips away at our perceptions of our own democratic freedoms. If people are threatened with violence it should be a matter for criminal law. Why the need for a campaign? Do I have to campaign for my right not be murdered or burgled? Of course not.

Dark days are still ahead for Europe I feel, they have not yet reached a tipping point. When they do, I feel sorry for the Muslims. Europe on the surface may seem so much more passive and meek than, say, the United States - but I believe it has the capacity for a much greater backlash. I have often commented to American colleagues here in the USA how amazed I was at the relative restraint of the US population immediately after 9/11. Yes there were some isolated incidences of random attacks against muslims but on the whole there were NOT the rivers of muslim blood that I for one, (Shamefully), expected to see.

I am not so sure it would have been the same in Europe. If London, or Paris, or Berlin had suffered an attack of the same magnitude as New York I truly believe the backlash against those countries muslim populations would have been far worse than anything we saw in the USA.

Keep pushing Islam, one day I fear you will rue the day.

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30. Comment #69406 by konquererz on September 11, 2007 at 6:31 am

This is how it begins. The only question is can it be sustained? Initially there will be lots of "apostates" and "heretics" that will want to stand out (relatively speaking in Islamic numbers). The big thing to look for is when the inevitable push back from radical Islam comes, will they still stand after the smoke clears. I'm cheering for them. Islam needs to come into the modern era and out of the dark ages already.

Other Comments by konquererz

31. Comment #69410 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 6:50 am

I am also a native English speaker with a diploma in Dutch which is fluent; my wife is Dutch and her English is outstanding (she studied English literature at University). If any translations or reviews are needed, please feel free to contact me.

On a more interesting note, I wonder if the Dutch speakers amongst us and certainly the resident Dutch would be interested in researching the state of affairs regarding, say, creationism in the Netherlands. Take a look around on the web and it's staggering to find the amount of creationist nuttiness there actually can be found in the Netherlands. I am sure that many of you will have heard of the debacle last July when the EO (evangelical broadcasting company) here in the Netherlands doctored the BBC series Life of Mammals by either not sending some commentary out, clipping sections and in the case of the portion of the documentary covering evolution, simply omitting it altogether.

Other Comments by Galactor

32. Comment #69411 by Dax on September 11, 2007 at 6:51 am

Dutch native, living in the USA, so I could be up to the task of translating those papers, too.

The provocative move reflects a growing rift between traditionalists and a younger generation raised on a diet of Dutch tolerance.

Tolerance? The Netherlands? I cringe when I read that! Dutch "tolerance" is more like appeasement of religion, than true tolerance!

Other Comments by Dax

33. Comment #69415 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 7:07 am

Just an aside to my previous comment, the director of the EO is a Mr. Hank Hagoort; any similarity with a Mr. Ted "Shaghard" Haggard should not be overlooked.

Just kidding.

Really.

Other Comments by Galactor

34. Comment #69416 by pewkatchoo on September 11, 2007 at 7:16 am

USA_Limey
The problem here in the UK is the loony left. They have pretty much formed an unholy alliance with the muslim minority to help them gain what they want. The Labour Government even tried to introduce laws to cover incitement to religious hatred, which happily were turfed out by the Lords. This was clearly aimed at suppressing criticism of Islam. The ridiculous part of all this is that many muslims simply don't want this special treatment.

The battle against Islamic nonsense is an uphill struggle, but it could be so much easier if the government was a bit more sensible. They don't see any problems until they are too late.

I have already posted a link to a BBC article that shows the Governmental position on Faith Schools, particularly muslim schools. This is the sort of thing that really scares me more than anything else. I know that I will be getting out of the UK as soon as humanly possible, but it is still my country and I am very sad for it.

Beeb link again:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6986398.stm

We need to campaign strongly against this sort of thing.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

35. Comment #69418 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 7:31 am

Here's some more information about creationist nuttiness in NL. According to the EO's website:

http://www.eo.nl/eoportal/article.jsp?article=8467215

"[there is not much] doubt of God as the creator of the earth. Around 61% believes that God created the earth in six [twentyfour hour] days [up from 53% in 1997]"

The most recent membership count I can find is around 470,000, i.e., around 286,000 Dutch creationist fruitcakes believe in the young earth stuff.

Other Comments by Galactor

36. Comment #69419 by pewkatchoo on September 11, 2007 at 7:47 am

More Dutch religious nuttiness. This guy built a replica of Noah's Ark (he thinks).

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/nieuws/buitenland/448222

The Netherlands also has the highest proportion of muslims of any country in Europe.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

37. Comment #69420 by Dr Benway on September 11, 2007 at 7:47 am

Good on the Dutch. They've carried a torch for freedom of conscience for a very long time. America owes a great debt to men like Adriaen van der Donck and the early colony at Manhattan.

Islam will have to change from within. People within the religion must insist on their own freedom of conscience. Once there's a critical mass of Muslims and ex-Muslims insisting upon the right to question, including the right to leave the religion, the nutters will quiet down.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

38. Comment #69421 by USA_Limey on September 11, 2007 at 7:51 am

Pewkatchoo,
Agreed on all counts. I did follow the link to the Beeb article on faith schools; it's a development I have followed since moving to the USA with sadness. That we would actually seek to create for the country as a whole the kind of division that prevails in Northern Ireland's faith based schools is beyond my ability to understand.

My only theory is that the government is so desperate to be shown making an effort to raise educational standards, (which are deplorable), that they will make whatever concessions are necessary to achieve them. Muslim schools teaching shariah law to kids? Sure, no problem as long as you get their grades in reading and math up as well.

That's the only reason I have come up with for this madness.

Other Comments by USA_Limey

39. Comment #69422 by rokort on September 11, 2007 at 8:00 am

Galactor,

i was outraged when this became known, about the EO changing the mentioned BBC documentaries. Unfortunately, most of my friends, family and colleagues were like: why bother?

Comments ranged from "what do you expect from these nutcases" to "evolution is also nothing more than a lie", and that's most people wanted to say about it. What i think -although one could argue we have a rather benign group of IDers here- is that the constant twisting and lying and at the same time deliberate defamation of science is not something a lot of people bother about because they think it's harmless. Even when people have been killed or molested it's like: "well, you cannot say religites are all bad because only a few are angry or acting bad" (and how many times have we heard this before?).

Therefore the disputes here between pro- and non-faith heads is mostly nothing more than name calling and non-sequiturs. It's more about how things are said than what is said. When i mention in public i loathe Muslim law then i'm chastized for daring to make such a statement, all in the name of "tolerance".
Same old, same old, as if religion cannot be criticized.

Still a long way to go. Also here...

Other Comments by rokort

40. Comment #69426 by Theocrapcy on September 11, 2007 at 8:07 am

I think it is astounding we need to set up organisations to make claim to rights we already have.

Other Comments by Theocrapcy

41. Comment #69427 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 8:13 am

rokort

I only found out about it when I got back from holiday late August when a lot of the dust had already settled. I was nonetheless shocked, after having delved into the issue, at how entrenched anti-evolutionism is in this country. I do get the distinct impression that there is a misinterpretation as to what Dutch "tolerance" is precisely. Often, it would certainly seem to be confused with ambivalence, apathy and that Dutch "right" to just get on with what one is doing and leave others alone and in turn be left alone.

It is extremely difficult, perhaps more so here than anywhere in Western Europe, to address this (creationist nuttiness) issue when (a) religion has the "pre-ordained protected rights" that you highlight and (b) there is such a sense of live and let live and the respect of the rights of others.

Other Comments by Galactor

42. Comment #69429 by deBeuk on September 11, 2007 at 8:14 am

@Mr. Dawkins: If you ever need a translator for Dutch articles feel free to contact me. I'm Dutch (born and raised) and have a proofreader in the form of my girlfriend, who's from the US and majored in English.

Other Comments by deBeuk

43. Comment #69435 by the great teapot on September 11, 2007 at 8:47 am

I don't know how many dutch speakers out there are interested but if you haven't seen it already the Dutch series "God bestaat niet" (God doesn't exist) is available at the following link
http://www.rvu.nl/rvu.php?i=4&l=0&n=806
Hope the above works, I enjoyed it, even with limited dutch. The guests all speak clearly enough for even an hopeless case like me.

Other Comments by the great teapot

44. Comment #69436 by rokort on September 11, 2007 at 8:48 am

Galactor

via eo.nl i just came to a link where they say that there's a book questioning the existence of Napoleon with the same line of reasoning used for denying the existence of Jezus. Well, there's enough data on the existence of Bonaparte so.......tadaaaa: Jezus existed!

I don't care whether Jezus was there some time ago or not, but this is what we're 'up against': people that don't care about facts or anything, just a convenient truth. And they don't give an arse that the whole world is watching.

And you're right, Dutch aren't all that tolerant, it's more about indifference, indeed. Well, not for me it ain't!

Other Comments by rokort

45. Comment #69437 by ridelo on September 11, 2007 at 8:52 am

One reason to learn Dutch: Hans Teeuwen about religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHnC_MHIbLU

Some may find it offensive...

Other Comments by ridelo

46. Comment #69439 by Galactor on September 11, 2007 at 8:58 am

Great Teapot

Thanks for the interesting links; they'll no doubt make good viewing.

rokort
Aah! The powers of reasoning of the faithful. I'd just like, one of these days, to put the famous sales "what will it take to get you to ride home in this car, today?" question to a creationist fruitloop, namely, the "what would it take for you to believe in the theory of evolution?" question and see what reaction they give. Compare this then to their presumable belief in the theory of gravity.

Other Comments by Galactor

47. Comment #69440 by Red Foot Okie on September 11, 2007 at 9:02 am

Ah, this is good to see. I hope their movement gains momentum and publicity.

Theirs is a much harder road than mine.

Other Comments by Red Foot Okie

48. Comment #69441 by jimbob on September 11, 2007 at 9:03 am

Two comments:

1. Ayaan Hirshi Ali's book "Infidel" is a must read for anybody who wants to support this initiative -- and it should be required reading for all politicians and educators too!

2. When are the leaders in the UK going to get brains enough to officially separate church and state? Anybody in the UK who wants to help get that idea going might find it helpful to work with American's United for Separation of Church and State.

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49. Comment #69446 by CoppertopHeathen on September 11, 2007 at 9:29 am

These apostates have every weapon at their disposal to defend themselves, namely, the LAW. They should seek protection from the Dutch government and the police. With their voices heard through the media networks, their budding movement could grow into a sizeable force to be feared and respected by Dutch Islamic groups, who, whether they like it or not, will have to respect the fundamental rights accorded to every Dutch citizen, even those who choose to forsake the religious indoctrination they grew up with.

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50. Comment #69449 by Ingeborg on September 11, 2007 at 9:34 am

Hello!
Richard, thank you for mentioning my documentary series and articles on your site.

I just spent 1 hour writing about the ordeals that surrounded the making of my documentary series
FAITH,SEX&DESPAIR (Dutch tv, IKON TV March 2006),
but the whole text seems to be lost in cyber space. I was stupid not to save it first…

I must run, so I will try again tomorrow

Anyway: you can watch the series on line with:

http://www.krux.nl/generalinfo.asp?lIntEntityId=65

Unfortunately it is all in Dutch – my network has no money for English translation for international exposure.

This article in Amsterdam Weekly (March 2006) gives quite an adequate impression:

'But if you don't masturbate, how will you be able to explain to your future husband how you like it?'
Why real integration starts in the sack
By Laura Groeneveld
The real reason why Islamic and Dutch cultures clash is because of their different views on sex, says journalist Ingeborg Beugel, who has just completed a TV series called Geloof, sex en (wan-)hoop. ['Faith, sex and despair/hope']
Beugel came up with the idea of making a TV series about the different attitudes towards sex in Islamic and Dutch culture, when her teenage daughter told her about the sexual harassment she suffered from Moroccan boys. 'They call her a whore, just because she doesn't save herself for marriage,' she says. Worried, Beugel set out to analyse what was going on and ended up spending 18 months on a multicultural adventure.
Beugel interviewed many young Muslim men and women, and openly asked them about their feelings on topics from masturbation to the importance of having an intact hymen. As long as the camera was turned off, she didn 't have any trouble tackling these rather intimate subjects. But once the camera started rolling, things became much harder. For women it was impossible to admit to any pre-marital sexual activities, out of a deep felt loyalty to their families.
At times, this was too much for Beugel to cope with. 'I got so tired of the web of lies that seems to dominate the lives of Islamic women,' she says. 'For instance, I talked to a woman who has been living with her Dutch boyfriend for four years. Every time her parents come to visit her, she needs to hide him and his stuff to let her parents believe she lives on her own. Personally, I call that lying. But to a Moroccan girl, that's a way of showing respect to her parents.'
During the making of the programme, Beugel also discovered that there is a lot of confusion about what exactly the Koran preaches. Do men and women have to save themselves for marriage, or is it just the women? Most of the unmarried men interviewed by Beugel admit to having already lost their virginity. But when Beugel asks them whether they expect their future wives to be virgins, they all say a whole-hearted 'yes'. So why can a man have sex before marriage and a woman can't? Because that's what Islam teaches, the interviewees say. When Beugel contradicts them, quoting the Koran, the interviewees get angry and blame it on their culture. In their countries of origin, men and women aren't equal - nor are they supposed to be.
Beugel also tries to show another side of Islam in the series. She speaks to open-minded Islamic men and women, and explores the sensuality and intimacy of Islamic cultural phenomena such as the hamam, or bathing-house.
But what makes this series so interesting is Beugel herself. The ways in which she tries to discuss anal sex or masturbation over coffee with giggling teenage girls are sometimes hilarious. 'But if you don't masturbate, how will you be able to explain to your future husband how you like it?' It's as if she's on a worldwide mission to show women they have the right to enjoy themselves sexually. For Beugel it has been an interesting experience, resulting in both very positive and very negative reactions on the TV series' internet forum. 'I'm just happy that the broadcasting organization (IKON) went along with the whole idea,' she says. 'I think that was quite brave of them.' Currently, the TV series is in use as guidance by police, secondary schools and university, 'so there must be something good about it.'
For more information see http://www.krux.nl/generalinfo.asp?lIntEntityId=65
Herewith the English description of the 6 episodes of the tv series:

OUTLINE SIX EPISODES: FAITH, SEX & DESPAIR

EPISODE 1: FRUMPS AND WHORES

Filmmaker Ingeborg Beugel tackles Moroccan and Turkish youths in the street about their conduct. They admit to occasionally calling Dutch girls whores, but only if the girls deserve it, they say. It's not as if they themselves are still virgins, but they do insist on marrying one. They could never marry a Dutch girl since most of them are no longer virgins. Their religion demands it, they say. But Beugel says: According to the Koran, both the man and the woman have to be virgins when they marry. So why is it OK for boys to have sex but not for girls?

Beugel also talks to Sophie (20). She made a short film for school about why Moroccan boys called her and her friends whores or sluts. Next, Beugel visits Akke Jan, 19. "Moroccan boys just want clean girls." Together with immigrant boys he tries to make our multi-cultural society a better place. For most Islamic migrants, sexuality is taboo, just like it was in Holland 50 years ago. But the spirited Kaouthar from Tunisia, a belly-dance teacher with a PhD in communication studies, claims quite the opposite: "Arab women are much more open about sex than Western women. At the hamam, my aunties and my mum told me really intimate things about sex, way more intimate than anything I ever heard in the West."

EPISODE 2: VIRGINS AND HOMOSEXUALS

Reporter Ingeborg Beugel visits a school with a lot of Muslim pupils who are new to the Netherlands. There's an educational talk on "the myth of the hymen" and then there's a class outing to the Red Light District in Amsterdam as part of their sexual education. Homosexuals tell the Muslim pupils a few things about gay love. Beugel goes on a trip to Morocco to see Mohamed, an Amsterdam bath attendant, who is on holiday there and shows her around some ultramodern night clubs. In secret bars she meets up with Moroccan gays to talk about their hard life in Morocco: their relatives know nothing, they must be married to have an alibi and the police are raiding them constantly.

EPISODE 3: BIKINIS AND BURKAS

Ingeborg Beugel is in Morocco with Mohamed, a lifeguard from Amsterdam, where they visit a bizarre dancing pool (a swimming pool with entertainment) on the coast near Tangier. It's a pool for rich European Moroccans holidaying in Tangier: burkas and bikinis, machos and losers. Mohamed and Beugel look for girls willing to talk about marriage, virginity, pre-marital oral and anal sex, and masturbation. Moroccan ladies don't want to be on TV, but the hit-and-run approach pays off in the end. And finally there's a fairy-tale traditional wedding in Tetouan, with men and women in separate corners. Every conversation Beugel has raises even more questions…

EPISODE 4: THE BOXER AND THE DANCER

In this episode, reporter Ingeborg Beugel meets up with Showyd from Afghanistan. He works in a shop and is also the boxing champion of the Amsterdam Cuyp. She also talks to Wiaan, a HRM manager and dancer from Iraq. Both Showyd and Wiaan are political refugees; together with their parents, they fled their extremely anti-female native country and its strong Islamic traditions. They have no trouble at all adjusting to life in the Netherlands. Traumatised by their past, they passionately embrace the democratic freedom the West has achieved. Wiaan, a spunky Iraqi, thinks you should be allowed to criticize religion and the Koran, something the Islam is opposed to. Both she and Showyd feel that 'saving yourself for your future spouse' is now outdated. So why is it that third-generation Turkish and Moroccan kids, born and bred in the Netherlands, feel so differently about these things?

EPISODE 5: CONVERTED AND CONFIDENT

In this episode, reporter Ingeborg Beugel argues with the Moroccan Samira El Kandoussi about the concept of lying. According to Samira, anything you withhold from your parents in order not to hurt them - that you have a boyfriend, that you had sex before marriage -
is not lying, but showing respect. Next, Beugel ends up in a Christian youth church where kids seek salvation in the Lord to the sound of rock music, in order to distance themselves from an empty existence of porn addiction and meaningless sex. And she meets Azizah, a Dutch Muslim girl who dreams of the perfect Muslim man…

EPISODE 6: ANGRY BROTHERS AND BRAVE SISTERS

In the final episode of this series, reporter Ingeborg Beugel meets Jihad, one of the outspoken Moroccan girls from the TV series "Meiden van Halal" (The Halal Girls). Jihad regrets having gone to see the Gay Parade on camera. In retrospect she is very much opposed to homosexuality. Next thing we know, Beugel and her camera crew are thrown out of a women's mosque in a heavy-handed way by its all-male board of governors. The police arrive on the scene. But the brave girls take the reporter to a relief centre and talk about their tough struggle against taboos and the oppression by their angry brothers.

(This last one is really rather mindblowing because of the fight in the Mosque, I litterary am thrown out by angry muslim men, but most of the - scared - women support me....)

Some persons on this site generously offered to translate some of my articles – they ARE long - as requested by Richard. That would be FANTASTIC. Please do contact me!

This is a great site. So there IS a parallel world full of soulmates…

Ingeborg

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