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Wednesday, September 12, 2007 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments |

Document A Response to Jonathan Haidt

by Sam Harris

Written in response to "Moral Psychology and the Misundestanding or Religion" By Jonathan Haidt
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/haidt07/haidt07_index.html

Reposted from:
http://www.edge.org/discourse/moral_religion.html

In his essay, "Moral Psychology and the Misunderstanding of Religion, "Jonathan Haidt worries that the "new atheists"—Dawkins, Dennett, and I—may be "polluting the scientific study of religion with moralistic dogma and damaging the prestige of science in the process." According to Haidt, Dawkins becomes the Grand Inquisitor whenever the topic of group selection is politely raised; Dennett has misinterpreted the literature on religion and morality for reasons inscrutable; and for my part, I am merely waging war with straw men. As luck would have it, Haidt comes to this debate in the guise an increasingly familiar "straw man"—that of the liberal, atheist scientist who would deliver us to the threshold of moral relativism, if not across it, with the best of intentions.

Haidt concludes his essay with this happy blandishment: "every longstanding ideology and way of life contains some wisdom, some insights into ways of suppressing selfishness, enhancing cooperation, and ultimately enhancing human flourishing." Surely we can all agree about this. Our bets have been properly hedged (the ideology must be "longstanding" and need only have "some" wisdom). Even a "new atheist" must get off his high horse and drink from such pristine waters. Well, okay…

Anyone feeling nostalgic for the "wisdom" of the Aztecs? Rest assured, there's nothing like the superstitious murder of innocent men, women, and children to "suppress selfishness" and convey a shared sense of purpose. Of course, the Aztecs weren't the only culture to have discovered "human flourishing" at its most sanguinary and psychotic. The Sumerians, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Hebrews, Canaanites, Maya, Inca, Olmecs, Greeks, Romans, Carthaginians, Teutons, Celts, Druids, Vikings, Gauls, Hindus, Thais, Chinese, Japanese, Scandinavians, Maoris, Melanesias, Tahitians, Hawaiians, Balinese, Australian aborigines, Iroquois, Huron, Cherokee, and numerous other societies ritually murdered their fellow human beings because they believed that invisible gods and goddesses, having an appetite for human flesh, could be so propitiated. Many of their victims were of the same opinion, in fact, and went willingly to slaughter, fully convinced that their deaths would transform the weather, or cure the king of his venereal disease, or in some other way spare their fellows the wrath of the Unseen.

What would Haidt have us think about these venerable traditions of pious ignorance and senseless butchery? Is there some wisdom in these cults of human sacrifice that we should now honor? Must we take care not to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Or might we want to eat that baby instead? Indeed, many of these societies regularly terminated their rituals of sacred murder with a cannibal feast. Is my own revulsion at these practices a sign that I view these distant cultures with the blinkered gaze of a colonialist? Shall we just reserve judgment until more of the facts are in? When does scientific detachment become perverse? When might it be suicidal?

Despite Haidt's suggestion to the contrary, it actually matters what people believe. Most religious practices are the direct consequence of what people think is actually going on in the world. In fact, most religious practices only become intelligible once we understand the beliefs that first gave rise to them. The fact that some people have begun to doubt these doctrines in the meantime, while still mouthing the liturgy and aping the rituals, is beside the point. What religion, after all, is best exemplified by those who are in the process of losing it?

Haidt draws comfort from the fact that even biblical literalists occasionally yield to common sense and ignore their holy books. Of course they do: their holy books are not only bursting with ancient ignorance—they are actually self-contradictory. Is Haidt suggesting that there are no real religious fundamentalists out there at all, or that their numbers are negligible? According to a recent poll, thirty-six percent of British Muslims (ages 16-24) think apostates should be put to death for their unbelief. Just how much exculpatory sociology is Haidt inclined to do in this area so as to get Islam entirely off the hook? When is a belief system not only false, but so encouraging of falsity and needless suffering as to be worthy, not merely of our understanding, but of our contempt?

Haidt offers us a choice between "contractual" and "beehive" approaches to morality—the first is said to be the province of liberals like myself, who care only about harm/care and fairness/reciprocity; the second represents the social order imposed by conservative religion, which incorporates further concerns about ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity. The opposition between these two conceptions of the good life may be useful to talk about, and the data Haidt presents about the differences between liberals and conservatives is interesting, but is his interpretive scheme correct? I have my doubts. It seems possible, for instance, that these five foundations of morality are simply facets of a more general concern for harm/care.

What, after all, is the problem with desecrating a copy of the Qur'an or taking the Lord's name in vain? Well, if a person really believes that the Qur'an is a sacred text or that God is listening, he almost surely believes that some harm could come to him or to his tribe as a result of these actions—if not in this world, then in the next. Examples of this sort of thinking should come so readily to the reader's mind as to make any examples I provide superfluous (AIDS as a punishment for the sin of homosexuality? The Asian tsunami as repayment for idolatry? September 11th as the result of too little faith and too much tolerance for abortion and gay shenanigans?). A more esoteric reading might be that any person who blasphemes or desecrates will have harmed himself directly thereby: a lack of reverence might be its own punishment, dimming the eyes of faith. Whatever interpretation we favor, sacredness and authority have collapsed to the harm/care axis just the same. Perhaps Haidt's thinking on this subject has been powerfully distorted by his own atheism, as he seems incapable of seeing the world as the faithful see it. We might well wonder, at this juncture, just which of us atheists are in danger of "misunderstanding religion." At least Dennett, Dawkins, and I have made some attempt to understand what it might be like to actually believe what people of faith say they believe.

The same point can be made in the other direction: even a liberal like myself, enamored as I am of my two-footed morality, can readily see that my version of the good life must be safeguarded from the aggressive tribalism of others. When I search my heart, I discover that I want to keep the barbarians beyond the city walls as much as my conservative neighbors do, and I recognize that sacrifices of my own freedom may be warranted for this purpose. I even expect that conservative epiphanies of this sort could well multiply in the coming years—just imagine how we liberals will be disposed to think about Islam after an incident of nuclear terrorism. Liberal hankering for happiness and freedom might one day yield some very strident calls for stricter laws and tribal loyalty. Will this mean that liberals have become religious conservatives pining for the beehive? Or is the liberal notion of reducing harm flexible enough to encompass the need for order and differences between in-group and out-group?

Even if we accept Haidt's "new synthesis" without caveat, we can ask whether any given culture is raising its children to have "bad" moral intuitions and to be incapable of the sort of moral reasoning that might lead to a more enlightened outlook. Are certain conceptions of morality especially good at binding a community together, but incompatible with modernity? What if certain cultures are found to be relying upon moral codes that look terrible no matter how we squint our eyes or jigger Haidt's five variables and four principles? What if we find a culture that is neither especially sensitive to harm and reciprocity, nor especially cognizant of the sacred, nor especially conducive to human flourishing, nor especially astute in any other way? Would Haidt's conception of morality allow us to then demand that these benighted people to stop abusing their children? Or would that be unscientific?

Finally, I should mention that Haidt fails to acknowledge the central point of "new atheist" criticism. The point is not that we atheists can prove religion to be the cause of more harm than good (though I think this can be argued, and the balance seems to me to be swinging further toward harm each day). The point is that religion remains the only mode of discourse that encourages grown men and women to pretend to know things they manifestly do not (and cannot) know. If ever there were an attitude at odds with science, this is it. And the faithful are encouraged to keep shouldering this unwieldy burden of falsehood and self-deception by everyone they meet—by their coreligionists, of course, and by people of differing faith, and now, with startling frequency, by scientists who claim to have no faith. Even if Haidt's reading of the literature on morality were correct, and all this manufactured bewilderment proves to be useful in getting certain people to donate time, money, and blood to their neighbors—so what? Is science now in the business of nurturing useful delusions? Surely we can grow in altruism, and refine our ethical intuitions, and even explore the furthest reaches of human happiness, without lying to ourselves about the nature of the universe. It is time that atheist scientists, above all people on this infatuated planet, acted as if this were so.

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1. Comment #69808 by Richard Dawkins on September 12, 2007 at 10:32 pm

 avatarBrilliant as usual. Sam is so very very good.
Richard

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2. Comment #69809 by hayesky on September 12, 2007 at 10:41 pm

 avatarAnother ignorant misunderstanding, and another applauded correction by Sam.

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3. Comment #69810 by Neil Daener on September 12, 2007 at 10:45 pm

I had read Haidt's essay earlier today and came to this site to start a thread to discuss it. Imagine my surprise and pleasure to find myself beat to the the punch by Sam Harris' above response! Thank you Sam for saying it far better than I could hope to have done.
Neil

Other Comments by Neil Daener

4. Comment #69811 by Mango on September 12, 2007 at 10:48 pm

 avatar
Anyone feeling nostalgic for the "wisdom" of the Aztecs?


Great how Sam Harris dissolves a banal platitude with real examples from history.

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5. Comment #69812 by BAEOZ on September 12, 2007 at 10:55 pm

 avatarAt the risk of being labelled some atheist version of a fawning beatles fan....another great article from Sam. I still think his writing rocks.

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6. Comment #69813 by Inferno on September 12, 2007 at 11:01 pm

 avatarI'm sick of hearing comments that religious people give more time, money and blood to charity. I'm sorry, but any organisation with principles that exclude people solely on sexual preference and believes that the majority of people in the world will be tormented for eternity in a firery hell, is not a moral organisation. Any morals they do have must be purely coincidental!

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7. Comment #69814 by BT Murtagh on September 12, 2007 at 11:08 pm

 avatarI have yet to read a new article by Sam Harris that doesn't contain at least one gem of phrasing that I'm compelled to add to my sig file. This time I think my favorite is this:

Surely we can grow in altruism, and refine our ethical intuitions, and even explore the furthest reaches of human happiness, without lying to ourselves about the nature of the universe.
As well as a clear mind, he's got a remarkable gift for this kind of writing. He's on a par with Hitchens IMO.

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

8. Comment #69815 by sabre_truth on September 12, 2007 at 11:13 pm

While I agree with the main spirit of Harris' argument, I say that it is very necessary that we keep a methodological relativism in the scientific study of all aspects of culture, including religion. Science is about descriptive, not normative claims. Ethics, though it may be informed by science, is not itself a science. The social scientists who study religious traditions, beliefs, and practices, must endeavor to understand the context within which the subjects of their studies emerges, and should keep their descriptive and explanatory work on those levels. These scientists may in other places delve into ethical considerations drawn from their work, and indeed speak out boldly for moral principle without relativism. But that should not be construed as scientific work. Though it may draw on scientific studies whose purpose it is to give an accurate description and explanation of the various forms of social behavior, it is the distinct and no less vitally important work of ethics. Ethics can achieve its purpose best when it has access to a store of scientific data with a minimum of bias. Both scientific and ethical study suffer if the two are muddled.

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9. Comment #69816 by Russell Blackford on September 12, 2007 at 11:15 pm

It is good, though I must say that I find Sam's final para rather unconvincing.

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10. Comment #69818 by dloubet on September 12, 2007 at 11:20 pm

Pardon me as I light up a cigarette in the afterglow.

Was that as good for y'all as it was for me?


Sam's clarity is unmatched.

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11. Comment #69819 by jonjermey on September 12, 2007 at 11:22 pm

Assuming for a moment that Christians are in fact happier, healthier and longer-lived than atheists -- who's to say which is cause and which is effect? When a particular superstition permeates society, who's going to be happier: the unquestioning human sheep who put up with it or the thinking people who witness the damage it causes? Are people less happy because they're atheists or do they become atheists because they can't bring themselves to believe nonsense, no matter how comforting it is?

Besides, Christians are supposed to say they're happy. It's in the contract. Let on that you're not satisfied with your tidy Christian life and the God-botherers will be round with their pamphlets in a flash. Much safer to just smile and nod.

But take heart: happiness measures are notoriously unreliable (see here for instance), and it may be that when sociologists claim to measure 'happiness' they are only measuring conformity. Christians are more conformist? No surprise there!

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12. Comment #69822 by Hizulvej on September 12, 2007 at 11:51 pm

 avatarVery nice, as always from Sam Harris.

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13. Comment #69824 by ahouston on September 13, 2007 at 12:02 am

• Religion is man made. Man made god in his own image and no doubt women made goddesses in their own image. There is therefore no point in attempting to explain religion in terms of natural selection on the basis that it should confer some selective advantage on our species or within our species.

•Religion is culturally determined and it is competition between cultures, that explains the "survival of the fittest" element which Richard seeks. This missing concept was new to me, until I read Roy Baumeister's address titled " Is there anything good about men?" in which he states;

Let's turn now to culture. Culture is relatively new in evolution. It continues the line of evolution that made animals social. I understand culture as a kind of system that enables the human group to work together effectively, using information. Culture is a new, improved way of being social.
Feminism has taught us to see culture as men against women. Instead, I think the evidence indicates that culture emerged mainly with men and women working together, but working against other groups of men and women. Often the most intense and productive competitions were groups of men against other groups of men, though both groups depended on support from women.
Culture enables the group to be more than the sum of its parts (its members). Culture can be seen as a biological strategy. Twenty people who work together, in a cultural system, sharing information and dividing up tasks and so forth, will all live better — survive and reproduce better — than if those same twenty people lived in the same forest but did everything individually.

The full article is available on the www.

•Johan Huizinga in his book Homo Ludens demonstrated how culture consisted to a large extent, of the elements of play. Religion which is a part of every culture, also consists of a series of play phenomena – laughter, crying dolls, music, imaginary friends, tolerance of incongruity, misattribution etc. For a fuller description readers can go to my home page at ahouston.customer.netspace.net.au

• The words illusion and delusion derive from the Latin verb Ludere meaning "to play". When you see the word delusion you should understand it in that sense, of a false belief derived from play. Psychiatry will have to share this word with us all because that is its original meaning.

•Religion is a game which is culturally determined in which one player, the religionist, attempts to delude others, the rest of us, using all the phenomena of play at our disposal. It is a peculiar game however, for it is a game which actively denies itself as being a game. In other words one of the rules of this game is – this is not a game. Those players who believe it to be real, are deluded.
Perhaps the question from Richard's point of view could be restated as " What is the evolutionary basis of Play?"

• "The God Delusion" means "The God from Play"

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14. Comment #69825 by Damien White on September 13, 2007 at 12:09 am

The 'new atheism' is new, and therefore is bound to attract critisism from some 'old' atheists who regard it as a form of 'rocking the boat'. As I have commented on this site before, religion is nothing more than a form of wish fulfillment. Haight's essay reminds me of nothing more than the response I eventually get from the religious when we debate this point, which invariably goes: "Maybe, but who are you to take their hope and comfort away from them?"
I can appreciate this point of view, though I do not agree with it or like it, because I am compassionate towards those members of my family who rely on that comfort to get them through the day. However, I do not appreciate it when the argument is used to stifle reasoned debate in the proper forum. Play it again, Sam, again and again and again, until they listen.

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15. Comment #69826 by Darwin's badger on September 13, 2007 at 12:24 am

 avatarExcellent piece there, even if the flaws in Haidt's reasoning were so glaringly obvious. Score (another) one for the good guys. :)

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16. Comment #69828 by pewkatchoo on September 13, 2007 at 12:35 am

 avatar
The point is that religion remains the only mode of discourse that encourages grown men and women to pretend to know things they manifestly do not (and cannot) know. If ever there were an attitude at odds with science, this is it.

I would suggest not just at odds with science, but with just about every area of human study and endeavour.

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17. Comment #69829 by the izz on September 13, 2007 at 12:47 am

 avatarI don't think Haidt is wrong when he says that religion strengthens the cohesive bonds of a society and the members of a stronger society have a better chance of surviving and passing on their genes. But really this falls under the heading of a in-group vs. out-group. In-group/out-group social bonding seems to be part of the human genetic makeup, and religion is a weird particularly virulent category of group.

But what Haidt misses is that humans are capable of seeing that their group boundaries are really just a matter of opinion and can redefine in-groups. With religion the criteria to judge groups is elevated to TRUTH and becomes even more resistant to change and more dangerous to its out groups. I don't think any "New" Atheist is claiming that we can get rid of in-group/out-group hostilities, just that we should open up the most intractable in-group to criticism and bring it back to the level of opinion.

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18. Comment #69830 by roach on September 13, 2007 at 12:57 am

Always enjoy reading Sam Harris. Reason and humor are the two most important aspects of writing (or any type of communication) in my book and he has a great talent for both.


Religion = Sacred tribalism

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19. Comment #69832 by Logicel on September 13, 2007 at 1:15 am

 avatarEvery since I first heard of Haidt's research back in May when CJ started this forum discussion thread (http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15021&sid=c32b44f8d179c6e53cfa60f7905c8fe9),
I was troubled by his approach. Harris has done an excellent job of cutting through the wonkiness of Haidt's viewpoint.

One of the questions on the morality quiz was if I would be disgusted if tomato ketchup was mixed with ice cream. At first, my disgust registered, and then reason kicked in. I realized that the ketchup was not blood, and though I doubt that such a culinary mixture would be pleasing, I certainly would eat it if I was very hungry. That realization drove home the value of reasoning and information. That question I would suppose was to see if I leaned toward the purity basis of morality. I found myself doing that with that type of question found on his quiz, as soon as disgust was triggered, I used facts and reasoning to counter the triggered disgust--it was very liberating.

Haidt seems to me to have a set opinion and is misusing/twisting data to support it. Like several other atheists participating in the above-mentioned forum thread, I leaned towards justice and concern for harm to myself and others as the basis of morality. Yet, what I consider to be the instinctual impulse to avoid contamination based on empirical information available to my ancestors, I was able to go a step further, and challenge the effectiveness of that instinctual push, making better and INFORMED decisions. Reason and facts go a long way against blind following of authority and ungrounded fears.

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20. Comment #69833 by fides_et_ratio on September 13, 2007 at 1:24 am

6. Comment #69813 by Inferno on September 12, 2007 at 11:01 pm

'I'm sick of hearing comments that religious people give more time, money and blood to charity.'

If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist.

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21. Comment #69838 by Jiten on September 13, 2007 at 1:36 am

 avatarA brilliant response from Sam.I love the clarity of his writing.

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22. Comment #69842 by Jiten on September 13, 2007 at 1:44 am

 avatarP Z Myers has written a brilliant response too on his pharyngula blog.

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23. Comment #69843 by Corylus on September 13, 2007 at 1:49 am

 avatarI have to say I have a lot of amount of respect for Haidt.

I read his essay first and for the first 10 ten minutes I sat and wondered what Sam would be responding to. For example, Haidt makes the points that:

a) important to be open minded when studying morality (in fact when studying anything)
and
b) moral judgements are (at heart) emotional judgements

Fine.

Unfortunately all became clear later on. Haidt correctly states that
...that academic researchers may have inappropriately focused on reasoning about harm and rights because we primarily study people like ourselves—college students, and also children in private schools near our universities, whose morality is not representative of the United States, let alone the world.
Absolutely. However he then spectacularly falls into his own trap when he puts forward his own definition of morality:
So here's my definition of morality, which gives each side a chance to make its case:
Moral systems are interlocking sets of values, practices, institutions, and evolved psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate selfishness and make social life possible.

Does Haidt honesty think that that the average proponent of religiously based morality would consider that a workable half-way point??

(Some of them wouldn't even admit that psychological mechanism have evolved!) Notwithstanding this, the vast majority would completely reject this societal definition of morality wholescale. Morality for them is about objective truths and values which they either get from scripture (naive version) or via their god-given reasoning abilities (sophisticated version).

This brings me to Sam's killer point:
Perhaps Haidt's thinking on this subject has been powerfully distorted by his own atheism, as he seems incapable of seeing the world as the faithful see it. We might well wonder, at this juncture, just which of us atheists are in danger of "misunderstanding religion." At least Dennett, Dawkins, and I have made some attempt to understand what it might be like to actually believe what people of faith say they believe.

The average religious person reading Haidt's essay would find it unbelievably patronising and condescending. The more sophicated ones would smell a rat. "Is he saying our faith makes us more controllable?"

When atheist thinkers talk about 'respecting' religion I actually think that they are doing the opposite. When you respect someone you listen to them and do them the basic courtesy of assuming that they mean what they say.

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24. Comment #69844 by Quetzalcoatl on September 13, 2007 at 1:50 am

 avatarFides-

If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist


Fides, but how much of religious giving is motivated by fear of the big man in the sky, or a sense of obligation? Nobody pressures atheists and agnostics into giving, but many do.

Oh, and that crack about atheists' faith? Very reminiscent of the Wee Flea.

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25. Comment #69848 by heathen2 on September 13, 2007 at 2:01 am

 avatarRegarding Comment #69833 by fides_et_ratio

'I'm sick of hearing comments that religious people give more time, money and blood to charity.'

If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist.


As an atheist, at least I can say that my charity is unfettered (no reward in the next life needed, thank you). I give it with a clear conscience. I don't know if the theist can separate his giving from what he thinks god wants or expects him to do. And he is expecting some reward for behaving so generously. Those are not good motives in my opinion. Well, Professor Dawkins covered this issue, and with much more elegant phrasing than I have.

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26. Comment #69849 by fides_et_ratio on September 13, 2007 at 2:07 am

Not that your assumptions about why religious people might give are correct, but I wonder if the receiver in need cares about the motives of the giver. I think at that stage they probably don't.

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27. Comment #69850 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 13, 2007 at 2:08 am

Bang on the money, as always. Sam Harris proves once again that he is a man who thinks.

In particular:

>>The same point can be made in the other direction: even a liberal like myself, enamored as I am of my two-footed morality, can readily see that my version of the good life must be safeguarded from the aggressive tribalism of others. When I search my heart, I discover that I want to keep the barbarians beyond the city walls as much as my conservative neighbors do, and I recognize that sacrifices of my own freedom may be warranted for this purpose. I even expect that conservative epiphanies of this sort could well multiply in the coming years—just imagine how we liberals will be disposed to think about Islam after an incident of nuclear terrorism. Liberal hankering for happiness and freedom might one day yield some very strident calls for stricter laws and tribal loyalty.<<

Pissants who believe they are being 'sensitive' or 'tolerant' by excusing religious insanity now, make what will come, much more terrible.

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28. Comment #69851 by Northern Bright on September 13, 2007 at 2:08 am

 avatar
'I'm sick of hearing comments that religious people give more time, money and blood to charity.'

If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist.

Why, Fides et Ratio?

Suppose for a moment the claim is true, and that religious people do indeed give more time, money and blood to charity. (And let's be generous for a moment, and assume that these surveys aren't including donations and tithes to churches as part of this fabulous charitable outpouring.)

Why should that in any way be evidence for the existence of a god?

At best, surely, it could be seen as an argument that religious belief is beneficial to society. (Though even so, it would have to be placed alongside, and viewed in the context of, all the evidence pointing the other way too.)

But it has nothing whatsoever to contribute to the debate over the reality or otherwise of the existence of a god, and that's the central issue for atheists: anything else is just a sideshow.

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29. Comment #69852 by heathen2 on September 13, 2007 at 2:10 am

 avatarAs far as the response to Haidt, I am so impressed by Sam's excellent writing skills. Yes the humor really helps, too. I was a semi-weak atheist until I read The End of Faith. Now I'm addicted to this website!

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30. Comment #69853 by Robert Maynard on September 13, 2007 at 2:12 am

 avatar
Is there some wisdom in these cults of human sacrifice that we should now honor? Must we take care not to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Or might we want to eat that baby instead?
Solid gold black humour. :D

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31. Comment #69854 by heathen2 on September 13, 2007 at 2:14 am

 avatarfides_et_ratio,

You speak of motives of the giver. Yes, motives matter. To this day, religious givers dole out their religion with the rice (or bread or whatever). Not always, but it's disgusting when it happens.

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32. Comment #69855 by Corylus on September 13, 2007 at 2:19 am

 avatarFides-et-ratio said
...but I wonder if the receiver in need cares about the motives of the giver. I think at that stage they probably don't.

Maybe, maybe not. It is hard enough to accept charity at the best of times. I would argue that the knowledge that the person giving is more worried about themselves than then person in need might make this even harder.

When this assistance is in the form of blood (and one's life is at stake) then concerns about motivation will probably not register. A second of reflection though will inform the recipient that; although the giver may well be devout; they will not be a devout Jehovah's Witness.

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33. Comment #69856 by Quetzalcoatl on September 13, 2007 at 2:21 am

 avatarFides-

the motives do matter, because too often the generosity of the religious giver comes loaded with caveats. Witness the Catholic Church's recent call for believers to stop supporting Amnesty because of their stance on abortion. Contraception is another good example. Abstinence programs in the US is a third. The list goes on. Generosity with numerous restricting conditions is not true charity.

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34. Comment #69857 by _J_ on September 13, 2007 at 2:26 am

 avatarI'm looking forward to reading Haidt's essay and looking at the forum thread mentioned by Logicel above (thanks for that, Logicel). This is an interesting fault-line for me: I have a lot of time for Jonathan Haidt, and for Harris, Dawkins and the rest.

I've been recommending The Happiness Hypothesis to people since reading it earlier this year, and would probably be more likely to give a copy of that book to a deeply entrenched theist who I wanted to have a sensible discussion about religion and morality with than Dawkins' or Harris'. Why? Because Haidt is utterly non-confrontational, extremely friendly and readable, but comes out with all kinds of fascinating data and observations that slowly and clearly put religious experiences into the category of natural, understandable phenomena.

Having not yet read the Haidt article, I can't judge how justified Harris' defence is here. Some of the early comments in his article sound suspiciously 'putting words in Haidt's mouth'-ish, but overall I completely agree with his reminding Haidt (and everyone) that we mustn't forget that people's factually errant beliefs can very easily be actually harmful. I shall be a little sorry to discover Haidt to be objecting to this point, if indeed he is.

However, I'm with Russel Blackford (9) in finding the last paragraph of Sam's article a bit unsatisfying. It is unsatisfying in the same way as Professor Dawkins can be when, after giving acres of excellent rational argument, he responds to the question of what is wrong with an imaginary god if (hypothetically) it can be shown to do far more good than harm by saying 'Isn't that rather undignified?'. In your opinion, Richard, in your opinion.

I sympathise - and agree - with Harris and Dawkins. I absolutely want honesty to be the best policy, and facing up to the truth (which, as I understand it, is that there is no god) to be an effective (if not an easy) path to happiness. (And, incidentally, I think Haidt's book is a better guide to understanding and finding such happiness than TGD - though that should be expected, given its subject matter.) But there's a point to be faced here, which is that it ain't necessarily so.

I dimly remember reading (someone make my day by telling me it was in an a Dawkins book!) a possibly apocryphal story about a fine powder weapon that had been developed to seize up the engines of enemy vehicles. The story goes that, when it was field tested, it actually made the engines run better.

It's perfectly possible that, for a lot of people, that's what life is like. Those vehicle engines were designed for a reality that does not include dense clouds of fine dust, yet the addition of that dust improves their performance. It may be that the human mind, although part of a reality that includes no gods whatsoever, actually conducts its business (including its interactions with other human minds) more smoothly and cheerfully when exposed to the dense clouds of a well-designed religion, in a majority of cases. I'm not saying this is necessarily true, but I'm aware of no logical reason why it could not be.

Responses like Harris' last paragraph here and Dawkins' 'not very dignified' retort address this problem by sweeping it aside. To the constitutionally unreligious career scientist, the idea that persisting in a delusion could actually be in some important regards experientially superior to courageously pursuing the truth is unsurprisingly unwelcome. But Harris and Dawkins are much bigger and better than these, their weakest arguments, indicate. Surely the scientific thing to do is to is to treat the effects of belief as evidence, and to recognise the pros and cons of holding religious beliefs as even-handedly as possible. Certainly, one should not lose track of the aim that Harris reminds us of here: that we should be striving for a society in which no person's personal beliefs can be allowed to impinge upon the rights of another, and fantasies should not tread on the toes of reality.

You don't want to have to fill the atmosphere with dust particles just to get the best out of your engine, but likewise you don't throw away the whole episode as a bad job. You take the opportunity to learn from a serendipitous miscalculation and hopefully design better engines that work as well without dust as these work with it. You ditch the cloud and keep the silver lining. Haidt's work is all about silver linings whilst Harris' has been chiefly about frowning at clouds. I suppose it's not a surprise if there are some resultant differences in attitude, but both approaches are necessary ingredients in the task of making progress with this difficult, ancient problem of religion.

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35. Comment #69860 by Prufrock on September 13, 2007 at 2:45 am

The scientific and reasoning evidence simply damns any notion of god, and that is all.

The question is now what is reliion's role in developing our moral outlook. Sam's article answers that it's redundant here too, given its past performance.

The paragraph beginning:

"Even if we accept Haidt's "new synthesis" without caveat, we can ask whether any given culture is raising its children to have "bad" moral intuitions and to be incapable of the sort of moral reasoning that might lead to a more enlightened outlook."

illustrates my concerns - he says it all far better than I can ever synopsise it - and when he says:

"Would Haidt's conception of morality allow us to then demand that these benighted people to stop abusing their children? Or would that be unscientific?"

He is saying it all. We cannot pass this stuff on to our children because it cripples them.

If anyone could have any doubts about why new atheism is right in its approach to religion and god issues then

"Surely we can grow in altruism, and refine our ethical intuitions, and even explore the furthest reaches of human happiness, without lying to ourselves about the nature of the universe."

surely ends those.

Fantastic article, he and Professor Dawkins say for me what I would like to say God botherer whenever they bother me or when an apologist wants me to spare a thought for those dominated by the delusion of faith.

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36. Comment #69862 by pewkatchoo on September 13, 2007 at 2:59 am

 avatarFides_et_irratio
Not that your assumptions about why religious people might give are correct, but I wonder if the receiver in need cares about the motives of the giver. I think at that stage they probably don't.

Agreed. But then that does not make such motives right. Or are you arguing that it ultimately does not matter the motives, only the result. Not a very 'christian' attitude I would have thought.

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37. Comment #69863 by Zaphod on September 13, 2007 at 3:03 am

 avatarCheck out the response of PZ Myers here http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/09/arguments_for_morality_are_not.php

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38. Comment #69866 by ICONIC FREEDOM on September 13, 2007 at 3:16 am

 avatarI would love to hear the response of Richard, Sam, Christopher or Dan regarding the new book by Robert Spencer, "Religion of Peace?" where he compares Christianity to Islam but insists that Christianity is not a bad thing.

Additionally, on his website, JihadWatch.com he continually seems to advance this thought.

While I've made many attempts to refute such a claim, continually people on the site seem to have it in their heads that because Christians aren't killing people(now) as they did in the past, it's not a religion of violence.

Really? Check out this video of those prominent political figures who are wishing for Armageddon:

http://www.wvcsr.org/

Rapture Ready is the video to watch

Anyone have an approach that I might continue to utilize in this debate? I'm always looking for new angles I may not be thinking of.

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39. Comment #69868 by Dan d'Lyon on September 13, 2007 at 3:19 am

An aside: Northern Bright - "...the debate over the reality or otherwise of the existence of a god, [and] that's the central issue for atheists.."
Why? Refuting something that doesn't exist seems a pretty pointless pastime. Lets take it as read and move on to something constructive.

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40. Comment #69871 by Macque on September 13, 2007 at 3:25 am

If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist.


Hardly.
It's like saying smokers contribute more money than anyone else to the NHS.

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41. Comment #69872 by _J_ on September 13, 2007 at 3:30 am

 avatarZaphod - thanks for sharing the link. Good article (as usual) by Myers. More than Harris', I think it gets to the heart of the disagreement. Wouldn't say it entirely resolves it, though, but makes more progress than I've seen before.

Where Myers says:

Would you abandon one little piece of rationality and bow down before the toy? Would you even be capable of that level of credulity?

I would say that the New Atheists definitely would not, not even for an extra year of life (I don't know about the rest of you; I'm beginning to be suspicious.)


...he's on to something. No, the New Atheists certainly would not. And he's right to be suspicious. What are our motivations if not to make ourselves, in some sense, happier? Is it just that some people value the satisfaction of seeking factual truth more highly than other forms of happiness, whilst others (those whom Myers, giving up on making any sort of argument, suggests have not 'grown up') chase different jollies, differently? I haven't a clue, but I reckon there's some interesting work and discussion to be done here. (I'd love to see some of it take place at Beyond Belief II.)

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42. Comment #69874 by Blueboy5 on September 13, 2007 at 3:39 am

Three cheers for Sam.

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43. Comment #69876 by I am happy on September 13, 2007 at 3:56 am

Really very very good indeed, top marks once more Mr Harris; once more your arguments are like lazers buring into the heart of the mumbo jumbo that perviads these times.

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44. Comment #69880 by Theocrapcy on September 13, 2007 at 4:26 am

 avatar"That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist."

Brrrrrrrrrrt! Wrong answer. You lose.

By definition an atheist is unburdened by faith. I love how religionists use their own criticisms against non-believers. A bit like the way they use science to prove science wrong.

Slaps forehead.

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45. Comment #69881 by Theocrapcy on September 13, 2007 at 4:32 am

 avatarDebating with the religious is a bit like playing Whack-a-mole.

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46. Comment #69882 by pewkatchoo on September 13, 2007 at 4:33 am

 avatarI have to agree that, while this article is good, Myers really does hit the nail whack-bang on the noggin.

He shows just how absurd are Haidts' conclusions about new atheism while in no way detracting from the value of his contribution to social psychology. Harris may be more quotable, but Myers does not beat about the bush and is therefore more satisfying from an atheist's viewpoint.

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47. Comment #69883 by Matt H. on September 13, 2007 at 4:37 am

 avatarWell, since religious people base their beliefs on faith and not reason or evidence, there can be no debating with them. I have... or should I say 'had' two friends who were religious, one Catholic the other C of E, who refused to enter into a civilised discussion with me on religion. All of the people 'deconverted' over the past few years by Dawkins, Harris, Hitchins etc were either agnostic or religiously apathetic.

Other Comments by Matt H.

48. Comment #69886 by fides_et_ratio on September 13, 2007 at 4:44 am

36. Comment #69862 by pewkatchoo on September 13, 2007 at 2:59 am

I wouldn't assume to know what motivates anyone, athiest or thiest, to give. Fear of hell as an aid to charitability is not something I'm overly familiar with either. Seeing as I think it arrogant to assume that I know what motivates someone I've never met, I thought the only thing worth pointing out is that the person in need who receives, probably couldn't care less anyway. After all, food doesn't become more or less nourishing because of the spirit it was given in.

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49. Comment #69887 by Russell Blackford on September 13, 2007 at 4:51 am

Thanks to _J_ for expounding what I was getting at. Also, I think that some of the comments on this thread treat Haidt in much the way that Richard is often treated - i.e. with a hostility that leads to insensitivity to tone and nuance. Sorry.

Now that I've made myself unpopular, let me add that I just spent ages writing a defence (from my possibly idiosyncratic viewpoint) of the new atheists, and of Richard Dawkins in particular, over here:

http://scienceblogs.com/purepedantry/2007/09/why_pairing_science_and_atheis.php

Some of you might want to join in.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

50. Comment #69892 by Theocrapcy on September 13, 2007 at 5:03 am

 avatarLet's face it, we do charitable work to impress the opposite sex and get laid.

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