A Response to Jonathan Haidt2. Comment #69809 by hayesky on September 12, 2007 at 10:41 pm
3. Comment #69810 by Neil Daener on September 12, 2007 at 10:45 pm
I had read Haidt's essay earlier today and came to this site to start a thread to discuss it. Imagine my surprise and pleasure to find myself beat to the the punch by Sam Harris' above response! Thank you Sam for saying it far better than I could hope to have done.4. Comment #69811 by Mango on September 12, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Anyone feeling nostalgic for the "wisdom" of the Aztecs?
5. Comment #69812 by BAEOZ on September 12, 2007 at 10:55 pm
6. Comment #69813 by Inferno on September 12, 2007 at 11:01 pm
7. Comment #69814 by BT Murtagh on September 12, 2007 at 11:08 pm
As well as a clear mind, he's got a remarkable gift for this kind of writing. He's on a par with Hitchens IMO.
Surely we can grow in altruism, and refine our ethical intuitions, and even explore the furthest reaches of human happiness, without lying to ourselves about the nature of the universe.
8. Comment #69815 by sabre_truth on September 12, 2007 at 11:13 pm
While I agree with the main spirit of Harris' argument, I say that it is very necessary that we keep a methodological relativism in the scientific study of all aspects of culture, including religion. Science is about descriptive, not normative claims. Ethics, though it may be informed by science, is not itself a science. The social scientists who study religious traditions, beliefs, and practices, must endeavor to understand the context within which the subjects of their studies emerges, and should keep their descriptive and explanatory work on those levels. These scientists may in other places delve into ethical considerations drawn from their work, and indeed speak out boldly for moral principle without relativism. But that should not be construed as scientific work. Though it may draw on scientific studies whose purpose it is to give an accurate description and explanation of the various forms of social behavior, it is the distinct and no less vitally important work of ethics. Ethics can achieve its purpose best when it has access to a store of scientific data with a minimum of bias. Both scientific and ethical study suffer if the two are muddled.9. Comment #69816 by Russell Blackford on September 12, 2007 at 11:15 pm
It is good, though I must say that I find Sam's final para rather unconvincing.10. Comment #69818 by dloubet on September 12, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Pardon me as I light up a cigarette in the afterglow.11. Comment #69819 by jonjermey on September 12, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Assuming for a moment that Christians are in fact happier, healthier and longer-lived than atheists -- who's to say which is cause and which is effect? When a particular superstition permeates society, who's going to be happier: the unquestioning human sheep who put up with it or the thinking people who witness the damage it causes? Are people less happy because they're atheists or do they become atheists because they can't bring themselves to believe nonsense, no matter how comforting it is?
Besides, Christians are supposed to say they're happy. It's in the contract. Let on that you're not satisfied with your tidy Christian life and the God-botherers will be round with their pamphlets in a flash. Much safer to just smile and nod.
But take heart: happiness measures are notoriously unreliable (see here for instance), and it may be that when sociologists claim to measure 'happiness' they are only measuring conformity. Christians are more conformist? No surprise there!
Other Comments by jonjermey
12. Comment #69822 by Hizulvej on September 12, 2007 at 11:51 pm
13. Comment #69824 by ahouston on September 13, 2007 at 12:02 am
• Religion is man made. Man made god in his own image and no doubt women made goddesses in their own image. There is therefore no point in attempting to explain religion in terms of natural selection on the basis that it should confer some selective advantage on our species or within our species.14. Comment #69825 by Damien White on September 13, 2007 at 12:09 am
The 'new atheism' is new, and therefore is bound to attract critisism from some 'old' atheists who regard it as a form of 'rocking the boat'. As I have commented on this site before, religion is nothing more than a form of wish fulfillment. Haight's essay reminds me of nothing more than the response I eventually get from the religious when we debate this point, which invariably goes: "Maybe, but who are you to take their hope and comfort away from them?"15. Comment #69826 by Darwin's badger on September 13, 2007 at 12:24 am
16. Comment #69828 by pewkatchoo on September 13, 2007 at 12:35 am
The point is that religion remains the only mode of discourse that encourages grown men and women to pretend to know things they manifestly do not (and cannot) know. If ever there were an attitude at odds with science, this is it.
17. Comment #69829 by the izz on September 13, 2007 at 12:47 am
18. Comment #69830 by roach on September 13, 2007 at 12:57 am
Always enjoy reading Sam Harris. Reason and humor are the two most important aspects of writing (or any type of communication) in my book and he has a great talent for both.19. Comment #69832 by Logicel on September 13, 2007 at 1:15 am
20. Comment #69833 by fides_et_ratio on September 13, 2007 at 1:24 am
6. Comment #69813 by Inferno on September 12, 2007 at 11:01 pm21. Comment #69838 by Jiten on September 13, 2007 at 1:36 am
22. Comment #69842 by Jiten on September 13, 2007 at 1:44 am
23. Comment #69843 by Corylus on September 13, 2007 at 1:49 am
...that academic researchers may have inappropriately focused on reasoning about harm and rights because we primarily study people like ourselves—college students, and also children in private schools near our universities, whose morality is not representative of the United States, let alone the world.Absolutely. However he then spectacularly falls into his own trap when he puts forward his own definition of morality:
So here's my definition of morality, which gives each side a chance to make its case:
Moral systems are interlocking sets of values, practices, institutions, and evolved psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate selfishness and make social life possible.
Perhaps Haidt's thinking on this subject has been powerfully distorted by his own atheism, as he seems incapable of seeing the world as the faithful see it. We might well wonder, at this juncture, just which of us atheists are in danger of "misunderstanding religion." At least Dennett, Dawkins, and I have made some attempt to understand what it might be like to actually believe what people of faith say they believe.
24. Comment #69844 by Quetzalcoatl on September 13, 2007 at 1:50 am
If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist
25. Comment #69848 by heathen2 on September 13, 2007 at 2:01 am
'I'm sick of hearing comments that religious people give more time, money and blood to charity.'
If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist.
26. Comment #69849 by fides_et_ratio on September 13, 2007 at 2:07 am
Not that your assumptions about why religious people might give are correct, but I wonder if the receiver in need cares about the motives of the giver. I think at that stage they probably don't.27. Comment #69850 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 13, 2007 at 2:08 am
Bang on the money, as always. Sam Harris proves once again that he is a man who thinks.28. Comment #69851 by Northern Bright on September 13, 2007 at 2:08 am
'I'm sick of hearing comments that religious people give more time, money and blood to charity.'
If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist.
29. Comment #69852 by heathen2 on September 13, 2007 at 2:10 am
30. Comment #69853 by Robert Maynard on September 13, 2007 at 2:12 am
Is there some wisdom in these cults of human sacrifice that we should now honor? Must we take care not to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Or might we want to eat that baby instead?Solid gold black humour. :D
31. Comment #69854 by heathen2 on September 13, 2007 at 2:14 am
32. Comment #69855 by Corylus on September 13, 2007 at 2:19 am
...but I wonder if the receiver in need cares about the motives of the giver. I think at that stage they probably don't.
33. Comment #69856 by Quetzalcoatl on September 13, 2007 at 2:21 am
34. Comment #69857 by _J_ on September 13, 2007 at 2:26 am
35. Comment #69860 by Prufrock on September 13, 2007 at 2:45 am
The scientific and reasoning evidence simply damns any notion of god, and that is all.36. Comment #69862 by pewkatchoo on September 13, 2007 at 2:59 am
Not that your assumptions about why religious people might give are correct, but I wonder if the receiver in need cares about the motives of the giver. I think at that stage they probably don't.
37. Comment #69863 by Zaphod on September 13, 2007 at 3:03 am
38. Comment #69866 by ICONIC FREEDOM on September 13, 2007 at 3:16 am
39. Comment #69868 by Dan d'Lyon on September 13, 2007 at 3:19 am
An aside: Northern Bright - "...the debate over the reality or otherwise of the existence of a god, [and] that's the central issue for atheists.."40. Comment #69871 by Macque on September 13, 2007 at 3:25 am
If I was you I'd be sick of it too. That sort of thing must really shake the faith of even the most ardent atheist.
41. Comment #69872 by _J_ on September 13, 2007 at 3:30 am
Would you abandon one little piece of rationality and bow down before the toy? Would you even be capable of that level of credulity?
I would say that the New Atheists definitely would not, not even for an extra year of life (I don't know about the rest of you; I'm beginning to be suspicious.)
42. Comment #69874 by Blueboy5 on September 13, 2007 at 3:39 am
Three cheers for Sam.43. Comment #69876 by I am happy on September 13, 2007 at 3:56 am
Really very very good indeed, top marks once more Mr Harris; once more your arguments are like lazers buring into the heart of the mumbo jumbo that perviads these times.44. Comment #69880 by Theocrapcy on September 13, 2007 at 4:26 am
45. Comment #69881 by Theocrapcy on September 13, 2007 at 4:32 am
46. Comment #69882 by pewkatchoo on September 13, 2007 at 4:33 am
47. Comment #69883 by Matt H. on September 13, 2007 at 4:37 am
Well, since religious people base their beliefs on faith and not reason or evidence, there can be no debating with them. I have... or should I say 'had' two friends who were religious, one Catholic the other C of E, who refused to enter into a civilised discussion with me on religion. All of the people 'deconverted' over the past few years by Dawkins, Harris, Hitchins etc were either agnostic or religiously apathetic. 48. Comment #69886 by fides_et_ratio on September 13, 2007 at 4:44 am
36. Comment #69862 by pewkatchoo on September 13, 2007 at 2:59 am49. Comment #69887 by Russell Blackford on September 13, 2007 at 4:51 am
Thanks to _J_ for expounding what I was getting at. Also, I think that some of the comments on this thread treat Haidt in much the way that Richard is often treated - i.e. with a hostility that leads to insensitivity to tone and nuance. Sorry.50. Comment #69892 by Theocrapcy on September 13, 2007 at 5:03 am
1. Comment #69808 by Richard Dawkins on September 12, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Richard
Other Comments by Richard Dawkins