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Thursday, September 13, 2007 | Science : Psychiatry and Psychology | print version Print | Comments

Document Mind Over Manual

by Sally Satel

Reposted from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/13/opinion/13satel.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

Earlier this summer, the American Psychiatric Association announced that a 27-member panel will update its official diagnostic handbook, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The fifth edition, which is scheduled to come out in 2012, is likely to add new mental illnesses and refine some existing ones.

High on the agenda will be the controversial diagnosis of childhood bipolar disorder. Recent data show that office visits by children and adolescents treated for the condition jumped 40-fold from 1994 to 2003. We still don't know how much of this increase represents long-overdue care of mentally ill youth and how much comes from facile labeling of youngsters who are merely irritable and moody.

Part of the confusion stems from the lack of a discrete definition of juvenile bipolar illness in the diagnostic manual. But there is a deeper problem: despite the great progress being made in neuroscience, we still don't have a clear picture of the brain mechanisms underlying bipolar illness — or most other mental illnesses.

For perspective, we must return to 1980, when the revolutionary third edition of the handbook, the D.S.M. III, was published. In a radical break from earlier editions, which had been based largely on psychoanalytic principles of unconscious conflict and stunted sexual development, the D.S.M. III categorized illnesses based on symptoms. A patient was said to have a condition if he or she had a certain number of the classic symptoms for a certain period of time. This approach promoted "inter-rater reliability" — the odds that two examiners would agree on what diagnosis to assign a patient.

Yet the manual remained silent on what caused the symptoms. The diagnosis of, say, schizophrenia did not reflect a known cause in the way syphilis is known to be an infection with a spirochete bacterium. The writers of the D.S.M. III were confident that science would one day fill this vacuum, yet three decades later psychiatry still lacks a firm grasp of the causal underpinnings of mental illness.

One manifestation of our limited knowledge is that many patients meet several diagnostic definitions at once. Roughly half of adults with clinical depression, for example, also have symptoms that fit the definition of an anxiety disorder. Do these patients actually suffer more than one illness, or do they just appear to?

Conversely, very diverse patients often qualify for the same diagnosis. "You can have three patients with schizophrenia, but all that really means is that their symptoms fit a particular pattern," says Dr. Michael First, a psychiatrist who was the editor of the current handbook, the D.S.M. IV. "They may not have the same pathophysiology and, as a result, they may not require the same treatment."

Indeed, the link between diagnosis and treatment is relatively weak. Antidepressants like Prozac help treat not only depression but also panic disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, bulimia and social phobia. This explains why clinicians often treat by symptom rather than diagnosis. Paranoia, for example, is treated with an antipsychotic drug whether it occurs in the context of schizophrenia, bipolar illness or methamphetamine use.

Why aren't we closer to understanding the relationship between manifest illness and its underlying causes? One obstacle is the staggering complexity of the brain. Another may be what Dr. First calls the "unfortunate rigidity" that all-or-nothing diagnostic checklists and sharply bounded categories impose. In order for the condition of a patient to meet the definition of clinical depression, for example, he or she must have five out of nine symptoms. But does a patient with only four symptoms have a different disorder, or no disorder at all?

One way to improve the classification of mental illnesses would be to define certain pathologies along a continuum so that patients who are truly ill won't fall short of qualifying for a diagnosis. Take major depression. The symptoms could be weighted so that suicidal preoccupation or immobilization, the most extreme and debilitating aspects, would get high scores, while loss of energy and interest for a short periods would get lower scores. Thus, a patient with few, but severe, symptoms would not be excluded.

A more nuanced approach could also make a real difference for population surveys of mental illness and clinical trials, both of which tend to rely on rigid symptom checklists.

An updated manual, however, is unlikely to transform treatment substantially — after all, revising diagnoses is still just another way to describe mental conditions we don't fully understand. But these refinements may well stimulate valuable new inquiry, enabling swifter progress in understanding the mechanisms of disease, better deployment of treatments we have and more efficient discovery of new ones.

Sally Satel, a psychiatrist and resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is a co-author of "One Nation Under Therapy."

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1. Comment #69950 by acidhouser on September 13, 2007 at 9:52 am

 avatarLets get the obvious one out of the way early.

I wonder how long before religion makes the list? :)

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2. Comment #69956 by oxytocin on September 13, 2007 at 10:27 am

 avatarWow, from this article, it sounds as though there have been centuries of frustration in the field. This couldn't be further from the truth. The fact is that psychiatry and psychology are very young areas of research. They have both gone through huge revolutions within that short span, moving from applied philosophy to being rigorously scientific in their methodologies. Further, the complexity of mental illness is extremely daunting, and it necessitates serious inter-disciplinary collaboration. Given that our understanding of the neurobiological mechanisms of mental illness is so poor, it's remarkable that we have treatments that are actually efficacious [despite the impotent protestations of the scientologists]. People need to have patience with this field of research. It's only a matter of time before it catches up with the public's expectations.

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3. Comment #69981 by LeeLeeOne on September 13, 2007 at 1:27 pm

 avataroxytocin - love the name... too bad more do not understand the name and the symbol.

as a phd student (for my second) excuse abbrv and shorts... time is expensive!

psych. is a baby when it comes to science, and this is where neuroscience has failed miserably. we understand the mechanisms of dna and are discovering more and more literally minute by minute.

science has failed perhaps one of the most important aspects of all of live - of HUMAN evolution - the brain.

science has not even tried to play "catch-up" though. we desperately need scientists, engineers, chemists, any researchers. we desperately need funding for this research. yet without immediate, clearly visible (i.e. tumor shrinkage or disappearance as in cancer therapy), no funding is found.

no one realizes the long-term social and financial benefits to understanding the human mind. (i.e., schizophrenia - a potential life-time of dependence on resources that include public assistance for therapy, supervision, housing, daily living, education, medication, monitoring).

if science could really pinpoint the cause, a treatment plan may be as simple as a single gene therapy treatment, a single (i stress single because the majority of schizophrenics are on multiple drug therapies which fail more often than not) yearly/monthly/weekly/ or even a single daily medication without all of the horrible side effects.

science - where are you? where is the financing? where are the drug companies, the universities, the alumni, etc.?

Other Comments by LeeLeeOne

4. Comment #69992 by Jiten on September 13, 2007 at 2:21 pm

 avatarThe human brain is staggeringly complex but I guess it is easier to figure out what went wrong when it's to do with the hardware than with the software.Neurology v psycology.

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5. Comment #69999 by Corylus on September 13, 2007 at 3:00 pm

 avatarOoooh I loved DSM as a psychology student. Hours of fun diagnosing myself and my neighbours/colleagues/friends with all manner of ailments!

I have lots - some I will admit to online (e.g. my simple phobia of bees/wasps) others I'm keeping very quiet about ;)

Here's hoping they have lots of fun new categories on this one.

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6. Comment #70010 by phasmagigas on September 13, 2007 at 4:23 pm

 avatari suppose its all abit like trying to decide if a man who is 5' 4" is short, medium or tall or indeed somewhere inbetween. I also suppose the word 'illness' itself is a very fuzzy area in psychiatry. You get rabies, you've got an illness, you have manic depression but father 10 well turned out kids and have a great career and have lots of friends then the fuzzy starts to appear(ok so you could have all the above and then get rabies, but you get my point??)

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7. Comment #70016 by BAEOZ on September 13, 2007 at 4:42 pm

 avatarCorylus, when I first stated studying psych a few years back I went to borders and had great fun with the DSM. Didn't buy it, but realised my disorder is that I just don't give a rat's arse sometimes. :P

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8. Comment #70029 by Nick6742 on September 13, 2007 at 6:01 pm

 avatarThis summer I saw a presentation from a consortium of researchers looking for biomarkers for various psych disorders. They are making great headway, one especially intriguing was that schizophrenia seems to show a very diabetes like/insulin-resistant/under stimulated picture in the CNS. confirmed with multiple techniques. This article didn't really mention that this work or anything like it is going on.

What's more is that the article creates a false dilemma. The vast majority of clinicians regard these Dx criteria as vague guidelines. Diagnostic criteria are most useful as inclusion criteria in clinical trials, not as a way to diagnose an individual sitting in front of you.

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9. Comment #70036 by oxytocin on September 13, 2007 at 7:55 pm

 avatarphasmagigas, medicine has been very successful, but you should be aware that many so-called "medical" [as opposed to "psychological"...which will eventually be an outdated distinction] disorders are poorly conceptualized and far from clear cut. Diagnosis in medicine can be imprecise as well.

Nick6742: as a psychologist who works with psychiatrists on a daily basis, I would say that your comment about clinicians using dx criteria as "vague guidelines" does not ring true. Because the DSM-IV-TR is the best system that we have, we act "as if" it was true. We all know that there are far better systems ahead of us, but we use the criteria sincerely. To do otherwise would not be scientific or useful, since, in the latter case, communication about any commonly understood phenomenon would be effectively meaningless without strict taxonomic adherence. As we hone our skills at understanding the constitution of these disorders [schizophrenia is particularly poorly understood] we will not only diagnose more reliably, but we will develop highly effective treatments that are tailored for these newly re-conceptualized disorders. Our current tools are transitory, but as a scientist, I hope that this is the case for all of our tools.

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10. Comment #70052 by robotaholic on September 13, 2007 at 11:38 pm

 avatarI personally don't believe that psychiatry is science. I don't think the brain should be treated any differently than your other organs. Pathology should be recognized and treated. Most if not all mental problems are due to either malformed areas of the brain or chemical imbalance and should be invasively treated with either surgery or medicine. I consider psychiatry to be glorified alternative medicine homeopathy. lol

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11. Comment #70053 by robotaholic on September 13, 2007 at 11:40 pm

 avatarOh and jiten, there is no distinction, the hardware is all there is.

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12. Comment #70054 by BAEOZ on September 13, 2007 at 11:43 pm

 avatarrobotaholic:
I don't think the brain should be treated any differently than your other organs. Pathology should be recognized and treated.

Do you recommend that we section someones frontal lobes or cerbellum or whatever because of mental illness? It's quite easy to change personality, disable or kill a person messing with the brain. You can replace the liver, heart, lungs etc and still have the same person. Can't do that with the brain. I know that psychology and psychiatry are young sciences that don't have the extent of knowledge that other medicine does. They are sciences though.

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13. Comment #70099 by Yorker on September 14, 2007 at 4:33 am

 avatarBeen doing a little self-diagnosis recently; it seems I have a few disorders, however, I'm very proud of them! :)

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14. Comment #70118 by oxytocin on September 14, 2007 at 5:50 am

 avatarrobotaholic,
Nice to know that you have such strong opinions on this matter without evidence. As a scientist [who, by definition, has done research] within the mental health profession, I can provide your comment with a proper smack down. Psychiatry IS medicine [it DOESN'T treat the issues any differently than any other medical condition], and your oversimplification of human psychology is potentially dangerous. I suggest that you learn about a subject before you declare something to be the case. Shouldn't we be here on this website because we value evidence? Your summary dismissal of these fledgling sciences has demonstrated not only a lack of knowledge, but a potentially damaging bias. Without the facts, we have the potential to exhibit faith and conviction in our attitudes just as certainly as if we were religious ourselves.

Prufrock: Behavioral fascist? Cardiological fascist? Neurological fascist? Methinks the media has wiggled its way into some brains and done its worst.

Here's a dangerous idea: it's ok not to know something and to admit it.

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15. Comment #70190 by Nick6742 on September 14, 2007 at 9:40 am

 avatarI think I miscommunicated. Most of my experience comes from neurodegenerative diseases and so I'm also not the most informed on this topic. I still think the utility in the DSM-IV is in providing a label to a set of symptoms and not for informing the treatment of those symptoms.

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16. Comment #70196 by oxytocin on September 14, 2007 at 10:00 am

 avatarNick6742, neurodegenerative diseases are a very challenging area of diagnosis indeed.

I guess it depends on what you use. If we're talking about meds, then yes, we're coming to understand that our tailored treatments are not as uniquely effective by diagnosis as we had once thought. Physicians are prescribing anticonvulsants as "mood stabilizers", and antipsychotics are being used increasingly for a wide array of diagnoses, including agitated depression. They also prescribe them for sleep, but I can't talk about that without becoming enraged [sleep is my specialty].

When we talk about psychological treatments, there is no doubt that tailored treatments work well, particularly in the areas of insomnia, phobias, and depression. Here, matching the different cognitive-behavior protocols to the specific diagnosis is essential and would be nonsensical otherwise. The research supports this approach.

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17. Comment #70203 by robotaholic on September 14, 2007 at 10:19 am

 avatarI would consider myself in line with Daniel Dennett actually and not at all am I abhorrant of any fledgling sciences. Psychiatry has yet to give evidence of any scientific content. I'll quote Dennett in his famous paper "What RoboMary Knows":
Contemporary materialism–at least in my version of it–cheerfully endorses the assertion that we are robots of a sort–made of robots made of robots. Thinking in terms of robots is a useful exercise, since it removes the excuse that we don't yet know enough about brains to say just what is going on that might be relevant, permitting a sort of woolly romanticism about the mysterious powers of brains to cloud our judgment. If materialism is true, it should be possible ("in principle!") to build a material thing–call it a robot brain–that does what a brain does, and hence instantiates the same theory of experience that we do. Those who rule out my scenario as irrelevant from the outset are not arguing for the falsity of materialism; they are assuming it, and just illustrating that assumption in their version of the Mary story. That might be interesting as social anthropology, but is unlikely to shed any light on the science of consciousness.

I conclude that Psychiatry is the medical specialty concerned with the prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of mental illness.

If we are robots made of robots made of robots, treatment and cure would necessarily be neurology.

consider your argument "slapped down" and please don't be so emotional- my argument isn't "dangerous"

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18. Comment #70205 by Nick6742 on September 14, 2007 at 10:30 am

 avatarAh, I see your point now. I was approaching the problem from a purely medication/physical modality standpoint.

robotaholic, that's not really true. Medical specialty deals with different types of diseases even if the organ systems overlap. Rheumatologists and orthopods both treat joint pain, but for different diseases and different pathologies. Psychiatrists and neurologists both treat CNS diseases, but again these are from different pathologies and require different treatments. Both are grounded in science and used the best evidence to decide their treatments, they just treat different things.

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19. Comment #70206 by robotaholic on September 14, 2007 at 10:35 am

 avatarAlso a word on eliminative materialism -

Psychiatry: The medical specialty concerned with the prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of mental illness flies in the face of Paul and Patricia Churchland's recharacterization of eliminative materialism -Eliminative materialism is a philosophical theory that argues that neuroscience has restricted, and will eventually eliminate, any need for psychology.

"The sufficient cause for all material events is other material events".
The only way I have found to maintain complete materialism without any form of cartesian theater or dualism is to be eliminative materialist.

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20. Comment #70208 by Dr Benway on September 14, 2007 at 10:50 am

 avatar
The only way I have found to maintain complete materialism without any form of cartesian theater or dualism is to be eliminative materialist.
There's probably a pill for that.

Subjective or first person data can be translated into third person or objective data, and so studied via the scientific method. I may not directly observe another person's pain, but I can observe verbal reports of pain.

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21. Comment #70254 by oxytocin on September 14, 2007 at 3:24 pm

 avatarrobotaholic, I think we are in complete agreement that eventually, neither "psychology" nor "psychiatry" as we currently understand them will exist. The molecular biologists will take control.

With regard to your other comments: I think it's "dangerous" when someone declares by fiat that something of benefit to people, and which has empirical validity, to be categorically unhelpful or unscientific. What about looking at the data? How about looking at some psychiatry/psychology journals?

I don't think that I have any "woolly romanticism" about the brain. As a rational materialist myself, I think it likely that we will eventually uncover its secrets. I just think that people should admit when they don't know something.

The problem with discussing psychology and psychiatry is that as a species, we've evolved to be lay theoreticians about human behavior. This means that we have strong attitudes in this realm, and there is sometimes a resistance to psychology because of it. All things being equal, I find it far more difficult to convince someone that their lay notions of morality, for example, might be in error [based on research] versus their lay notions of physics or biology.

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22. Comment #70278 by robotaholic on September 14, 2007 at 5:02 pm

 avatarOxycontin, you're backpedeling. First you say they (psychiatry/psychology) are "fledgling sciences" - meaning that they have some sort of future. Then you say eventually they will lose out to molecular biology.

How contradictory.

Then you say I declared something by "fiat". I think my original post began: "I personally don't believe..." -That could hardly be considered fiat...an arbitrary decree or pronouncement.

You're all over the place.

stfu

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23. Comment #70286 by oxytocin on September 14, 2007 at 5:58 pm

 avatarrobotaholic, my apologies, I have not been clear.

Here's what I meant to say: I think psychology and psychiatry are transitory sciences that will make headway as they are now. They will eventually morph into molecular biology [or something else] somewhere down the road. I hope that is clear now. My comments were clear in my head, just not here.

You're right, I stand corrected on the "fiat" comment. You did indeed write that.

I was trying to write my last post between seeing patients and I couldn't pay as much attention as I might have.

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24. Comment #70324 by robotaholic on September 15, 2007 at 12:09 am

 avatarnp-i just love science alot and most fields of science intrigue me -

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
--Carl Sagan

For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.
--Carl Sagan

and my favorite:

Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
--Carl Sagan

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25. Comment #70375 by oxytocin on September 15, 2007 at 6:36 am

 avatarGood quotes from Carl Sagan. I love science too.

This is the path that most of us who use the scientific method are on. Whether we study psychology, zoology, chemistry, or physics, the goal is the same: the hope of capturing some glimpse of what was thought to be unknowable.

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26. Comment #70381 by Dr Benway on September 15, 2007 at 7:32 am

 avataroxytocin:
They will eventually morph into molecular biology...
Tinyism, or the belief that large things can be explained by smaller things, is soo last century.

Where did the coffee molecules in my cup go? I could tell you I was thirsty, or we could talk about Brownian motion, hydrogen bonding, gravity, thermodynamics, etc. Both explanations would be correct, but one won't bore you to tears.

Robotaholic, you might like Beyond Freedom and Dignity by BF Skinner, a strict empiricist like yourself. It's amazing how much animal behavior can be explained and predicted without any appeals to mental structures. No id, ego, superego. No guilt, love, joy. No effort to guess at what's inside the black box between our ears.

Once you grok Skinner, you'll enjoy the little spots where the model breaks down (clue: language acquisition). This brings into focus the hardware-software boundary. The black box ain't empty.

Sally's a good egg. She's on our team.

Robotaholic, are you at UCSD? Just wondering, as you mentioned the Churchlands. Back in the day, I used to sneak into afternoon neuroscience lectures at the Salk. Ah, good times.

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27. Comment #70383 by oxytocin on September 15, 2007 at 7:47 am

 avatarDr Benway, I had stated molecular biology "or something else". It wasn't meant to be restricted to that.

Agreed on the black box issue. Steven Pinker does a great job explaining the issues. We come with software installed.

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28. Comment #70410 by robotaholic on September 15, 2007 at 11:25 am

 avatarIt seems to me that nontrivial revision and even replacement of existing high level descriptions by neurobiologically harmonious high level categories is probably the answer to the psychiatry vs. neurobiology debate. However, in a profound way we do not understand exactly what, at its higher levels, the brain really does. Accordingly, it is practical to earmark even the fondest intuitions about mind/brain function as revisable hypotheses(!) rather than as transcendental absolutes or introspectively given certainties and therefore I would have reservations about considering psychiatry a science since any medical science must make conclusions in order to medicate or proscribe.

Oh and no, I didn't attend UCSD... lol

There is a marvelous website that has over 2500 papers on conscousness and it was compiled by David Chalmers... I have found it so interesting...you might check it out:

http://consc.net/online.html

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29. Comment #70426 by oxytocin on September 15, 2007 at 12:14 pm

 avatarrobotaholic, we need your definition of "science". I think it may differ from many of us who were trained as such.

I think examining any psychiatry journal will confirm that conclusions are made all the time in the same way that they are in any other branch of science. However, those conclusions should be stated tentatively, since that is the very nature of science.

I don't understand your argument in your first paragraph. Perhaps you would be kind enough to re-state it.

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30. Comment #70458 by Dr Benway on September 15, 2007 at 2:54 pm

 avatarI admit, robotaholic, I'm a little confused by the psychiatry vs. neurology point you're making. The boundary between these two specialties is fuzzy. Head injury, aphasia, epilepsy, Parkinson's, migraine, depression, autism, learning disabilities, chronic pain, sleep disorders - all are proper areas of interest for doctors in both specialties.

Many medical syndromes - not just in psychiatry - have uncertain causes. We used to blame stress and diet for ulcers; now we blame h. pylori.

Many medical syndromes are checklist based, e.g. lupus.

Research methods in psychiatry are no different from other areas of medicine.

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31. Comment #70511 by robotaholic on September 15, 2007 at 8:23 pm

 avatarI'm sorry I wasn't clear. I'll reiterate:

You can't see or detect mental states so how are you going to treat them? You can't detect them with any technology that exists currently, or even any hypothesized technology in the future.

It seems like that reduces the psychiatrist to a counselor. I certainly don't think it ethical to allow a counselor to prescribe medicine.

A neurologist on the other hand can detect and treat brain pathologies and at least his medicine is objectively scientific.

Mabye there is a synergy of psychiatrist and neurologist to be had in medicine. I don't know what part the psychiatrist would play however as their practice doesn't involve objective treatment. How could it, the only information they can have is the subjective personal report of the patient.

But you know what? The best demonstration of what I'm saying is this: Have you ever been to a mental institution? They are filled with people who are craZy. Those people are given drugs that don't correct their problems. Basically it's a place to house people. If there were a science that made ANY progress in helping those individuals I'd like to see it.

You may say "but what about millions of people who have been prescribed antidepressants and their depression was resolved?" Well I would say that was correcting the BRAIN not the MIND.

A good paper on what I'm saying is here:

http://www.huddersfield1.co.uk/depression/uncertain_science/index.htm

-John

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32. Comment #70514 by Dr Benway on September 15, 2007 at 8:53 pm

 avatarWhen patients translate their subjective feelings into words, those words become objective phenomena others can observe and study.

Many medical conditions are detected by a careful history of patient experiences - e.g., how intense is the pain? when did it start? how often does it happen? anything make it better or worse?

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33. Comment #70521 by robotaholic on September 15, 2007 at 10:05 pm

 avatarI am tired of this thread. However to say that a verbal report becomes objective is just not true.

In Daniel Dennett's heterophenomenology, the verbal or written reports of subjects are treated as akin to a theorist's fiction–the subject's report is not questioned, but it is not assumed to be an incorrigible report about that subject's inner state. Basicaly, heterophenomenology is a term coined by Daniel Dennett to describe an explicitly third-person, scientific approach to the study of consciousness. Personal report is accepted but treated alot like fiction.

I respect what Daniel Dennett says alot and so I agree to disagree concordantly.

peace

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34. Comment #70522 by Dr Benway on September 15, 2007 at 10:14 pm

 avatarFair enough; we can stop.

One last point: Patients lie. Or they're not skilled at describing their feelings. I agree that the verbal reports may not capture the patient's subjective event very well.

But the patient's words can be recorded on paper, or using video cameras. They are indeed natural phenomena others can witness and corroborate objectively, like a knee jerk reflex.

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35. Comment #70579 by oxytocin on September 16, 2007 at 6:38 am

 avatarrobotaholic,
It seems you have an entrenched opinion that you are unwilling to reconsider, even in the face of evidence from two professionals who know more about the subject than you do.

First, you actually can infer psychological states from verbal reports, as Dr. Benway says. These reports have been correlated with fMRI, PET, SPECT, EEG, etc, which is how we know anything about the connection between brain and cognition/emotion. If you eliminate that source of info, you have no way of knowing what brain activity on the imaging might be. We have also linked verbal reports with galvanic skin response [GSR] to determine connections with somatic physiology. Do you not think that there are reasons why scientists think that verbal accounts are valid?

Second, I don't know what you think a neurologist does, but there is a lot of inferential work, and a heck of a lot of data is gathered via verbal report. You seem to have the idea that physicians who work in disciplines that you deem "real sciences" are sitting in rooms with "objective tools". This is not the case. I work with neurologists as a member of our sleep disorders team and I have observed what they do. Your view is incorrect. Even if a physician had the tools so that every patient simply hopped into an MRI [or whatever] upon presentation at the office, it would either be cost prohibitive for the system or the patient, depending on the country. At present time, this cannot be done.

Third, I work on an inpatient psychiatry unit. Your assessment of the situation is dead wrong. You describe these sick individuals using pejorative labels [i.e., "crazy"], and then make unsubstantiated claims that they don't get better. How do you know this? What individuals are you talking about? Which diagnoses? What severity? What data is this based on? People are not kept in psychiatric institutions in the way you have specified...there are ethical standards, and the goal of treatment is to actually help people get back to their lives.

Rather than assuming you're right, look at the science. The data, not someone's opinion. Look here as examples:

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/current.dtl

http://content.apa.org/journals/neu

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bpsoc/bjp/2007/00000098/00000003;jsessionid=13x9ksc9wbp5a.victoria

http://content.apa.org/journals/psp

http://content.apa.org/journals/xlm

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~content=g781666680~db=all

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=PublicationURL&_tockey=%23TOC%236745%232007%23999459998%23640045%23FLA%23&_cdi=6745&_pubType=J&_auth=y&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=13e8a790403c4173001ecb9f7eeafe88

These, along with countless other journals, are the science of psychiatry and psychology.

The paper you linked to has nothing to do with science. It sounds like it was written in the 1950s.

I like Dan Dennett too. Again, though, he's not a scientist and does not collect data.

The brain versus the mind? Huh? The further we go, the more we reveal just how little you know on this topic. You sound like someone who has had no contact with real science or its clinical applications.

I think we've come to the end of this discussion since we won't make any headway even upon presentation of the facts.

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36. Comment #70635 by robotaholic on September 16, 2007 at 12:09 pm

 avatarLook, it's really simple. I don't think psychiatry is science. That's all. There are alot of people who agree with me. (some top scientists and alot of lay people- at least 15 million people in the usa alone) I know alot of people disagree with that. I know what I know from first hand experience. You seem to claim the same. So let's agree to disagree.

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37. Comment #70642 by oxytocin on September 16, 2007 at 12:26 pm

 avatarWell shucks robotaholic, ain't that just a quaint notion. As Sam Harris quipped, this argument is like being in a tennis match and suddenly realizing that your partner is playing without a racket. If you refuse to examine the empirical evidence, your opinion is worth very little. Uneducated and ignorant individuals have opinions all the time. How are we to differentiate them? Perhaps through evidence? Or is this just a matter of opinion?

If only reality were like that: my belief makes it so. What lay people think about science, or reality for that matter, doesn't make an ounce of difference. If your reasoning was sound, we would have democratically elected to agree on the earth being flat and the center of the universe.

...and cite your evidence that people [more importantly scientists] don't consider psychiatry science. Although I'm a psychologist, I'm fairly certain that I used the scientific method in my dissertation [and my other research]. It is that fundamental quality, the process of the scientific method, that determines whether something is a science or not. Not your baseless assertions.

The claims I make are because it's my profession! I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences with psychiatry, but there are reasons that we use science to educate us rather than personal experience. Each of us is too biased and small to accurately see the bigger picture.

You're right. Perhaps you should say the same thing to a religious person as well. You "just" have a difference of opinion. There are no facts, only opinion. Brilliant. This world will make unlimited progress subsequent to the adoption of your approach.

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38. Comment #70739 by Dr Benway on September 16, 2007 at 7:55 pm

 avatarMedicine is psychiatry.

But no matter the department, being a patient is not fun. And you're not treated any better if you're a physician. The machine is what it is.

I could tell you of my two trips to the ER this past week, and my "oh shit is it cancer?" moments, and pain, and an ultrasound on a Friday afternoon that looked sobering, and no physician around to review it...

"We don't have your ultrasound."

"It was done yesterday afternoon."

"The radiologist hasn't dictated it yet."

"I see. Will he be in later? Can I wait, or come back?"

"The results will go to your doctor."

"I understand, but I'm worried about this, and I won't see my doctor for a couple of days. I really need some answers."

"There's nothing I can do."

"Please, can I get a copy of the CT report from last week?"

"Why?"

"Because I want to read it. I want to understand why I'm still in pain."

"We don't have that here."

"Of course you do. I had it done here last week."

"Well I dunno..."

"And I'd like the ultrasound I had done last year, for comparison."

"We don't have that."

"It was done at this hospital. It should be in my chart."

"Your chart isn't here."

"Don't you call for a patient's chart when they come to the ER?"

"No."

"Then how... why... Well, things sure seem different now compared to when I was a resident."

"Even if we had that, you'd have to make a formal request through the records department to see it."

Fucking wankers.

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39. Comment #74334 by John Desclin on September 28, 2007 at 7:14 am

As a reaction to comment #70052 by robotaholic on September 13, 2007 at 11:38 pm
The brain cannot be treated as the other organs because it is too heterogeneous: it should be viewed as a single organism made of quite a lot smaller organs mutually interacting in very precise and intricate ways. Whereas all other organs are made of cells which are interchangeable (most of them), one may think of neurons in the CNS that each one is unique as a consequence of its location and of its connections with other neurons. You cannot treat "invasively" what you call "malformed areas of the brain", because these do not exist as such. Connections between neurons distant from each other are misdirected, which you cannot correct; surgery as is presently available would only create havoc. What you call "chemical imbalance" are very small focal areas where the
postsynaptic cell machinery is disturbed, which you cannot specifically correct either, because it is intracellular and more or less regrouped in too localized clusters of cerebral tissue. Moreover, most of the SNC map of these microscopical "malformed" brain areas is still unknown. Talking of "invasive surgery" makes me think of repairing a defective television set with a shovel.
(Sorry for my poor english: french is my mother language)
Jean (John) Desclin, MD PhD (Brussels)

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40. Comment #74339 by oxytocin on September 28, 2007 at 7:27 am

 avatarThanks for the great post John. Your description of the brain as a heterergenous collection of smaller organs is something that I have thought myself, but never really vocalized.

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41. Comment #76247 by John Desclin on October 5, 2007 at 8:10 am

Another comment of mine about the exchange between oxytocin (38, #70642, september 16, 2007) and robotaholic)
It seems to me that you both have a point. From what I gather from my readings of the english spoken (written) literature, I have to acknowledge that many psychologists and psychiatrists try to honestly apply scientific methods. The trouble is that, quite frequently, these methods are applied on data which were not reliably collected, or even worse on data which should not be considered as data but, indeed, as unproved opinions, as mere assumptions which were in fact never reliably tested but are widely accepted as common knowledge.
Psychiatrists are people as are all of us; many of them were religiously educated and still believe in the cartesian distinction between mind and brain. This represents quite a handicap when you have to take a scientific stance in psychiatry. In french-speaking countries (as well as in most of Europe), the "philosophical" approach to psychiatry and psychiatric therapy is prominent. Although a large part of this situation obviously stems from deeply ingrained freudian theories still lingering, I am afraid it also results from some revival of irrationality and superstition (along with relativism).
I am a retired histologist, neuro-histologist and neuroanatomist researcher (empiricist and atheist) and, as the father of a son ill with schizophrenia since 18 years now, I can tell you that I know firsthand that most of psychiatry, at least in our country, is very poor "science" indeed, if it is science at all, mainly because most psychiatrists in our french speaking countries don't know much about neurosciences, and what they know, most of them actually don't understand it. Perhaps I should acknowledge that neurosciences are poorly taught in our universities and don't attract too many students because these studies last too many years...
End of the rant; once more sorry for the awkward english.
Jean (John) Desclin

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42. Comment #76768 by John Desclin on October 7, 2007 at 7:11 am

Still another thought of mine elicited by 33. Comment # 70514 by Dr Benway on september 15,2007.
Dr Benway, you said: "When patients translate their subjective feelings into words, those words become objective phenomena others can observe and study".
Perhaps that may be so - arguably - when listening to healthy individuals: you may assume that they use the same language as you do (words have the same meanings for them and for you). Moreover, you may assume that their neuronal circuitry probably is rather comparable to yours as far as its lay out and its functioning are concerned. So, when listening to mentally healthy people, you are usually able to "put yourself in their place" to decide whether what you then think "in their place" makes some sense for you. Moreover, if it does not, you can further ask the person who is talking to you to elaborate - i.e. to paraphrase - and to explain with other words what was the meaning of his/her sentences. That's one of the ways we all communicate with each other.
However, even in such quite common and "normal" circumstances, you don't know anything about the chains of neural mechanisms responsible for the words you eventually hear. These are indeed phenomena you may observe, and you may also describe them, but I would not call such description an actual study. This so-called study doesn't tell you anything about the chain of neuronal events that led to the phenomena you eventually witnessed. You may decide you "understand" these words and the "feelings" which are expressed by your patients if (because) you can compare them with your own words and your own "inner feelings", i.e. your own (previous) experience. But let me ask you: can you be absolutely sure of your "understanding"? Can you be sure that the feelings (yours and those of your patient) are comparable indeed and were arrived at through the same neuronal ways?
What now when the patient is a mentally ill psychotic person? Do you still claim to be able to understand the feelings and the words of such patient, without knowing where in the first place the chain of neuronal circuits in his/her brain became faulty, without having at your disposal reliable methods to find that out?
That's the reason why I usually tend to agree with people who think that most of psychiatry is at best poor or even bad science: it is still too much, too often and too readily based on unsupported speculation.
I am convinced that psychiatrists engaged in scientific research are way too few, which does'nt help.
Jean (John) Desclin (Brussels).

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43. Comment #76985 by Kirby on October 8, 2007 at 2:50 am

 avatarHello all,

I am not a scientist. However, I am interested in the view of the thoughtful people on this thread, and put forward my thoughts in the spirit of friendly engagement.

In Roboholic I think I hear a concern with treating a disease not observed (as with a blocked artery for example), but inferred – which can end in say, Alan Turing being diagnosed with the 'disease' of homosexuality. Then there are the people who have been sent to mental asylums to be cured of their 'mental illness' as displayed in their political views. Then there is someone who is deeply sad, and this is the 'disease of depression' where the person is to be 'cured'. As a child my religious family thought there was something wrong with me because I was deeply sad in the life they were providing for me. I believe that they intended well, that they genuinely believed that physically and verbally abusing me, demanding that I believe and do what they did, would be good for me. However, the impact for me was rather different to their intention, hence my being chuffed off to the adolescent psychiatric unit – where I had the problem to be cured, which further encouraged my family's treatment of me. For me, very much like being a political prisoner as enforced by psychiatry, as I imagine witches burned at the stake may have felt. When I was able to leave their care as an adult I struggled to find happiness in the world – as I imagine anyone who what I went through would – but I did find it, and it is the story of many others too – an ending found through believing that they did not have a disease to cure – that they were actually right to feel sad because the situation they were in was not healthy for them. I am aware of course that this is anecdotal – but my concern is that some psychiatrists in their desire to help people, and in taking the disease model where there doesn't appear to be any disease reality (as per the blocked artery), can end up hurting those people a great deal instead. Religious people too have wanted to help people where they inferred 'the devil at work', and inflicted much damage in the process. I would have loved to have had help with my situation as a child, access to better education to help me too, laws that better protect children rights, social education wrt interacting with children (as per Dr Thomas Gordon for example?) – the things I needed I didn't get because people saw a disease to be cured – they didn't ask why I had the 'symptoms' that I did. They didn't give any indication of thinking that perhaps I was terrified to reveal the my view of my situation due to my family regularly voicing the idea that it would prove that I was crazier than already thought. After all, I was the one getting psychiatric 'help'. Sure there are people with brain damage, and I think Roboholic is saying that where that is to be found, by all means treat the damage. But where there is no found damage, hasn't history shown how dangerous it can be to 'cure the disease'.

Sincere regards

Kirby

Other Comments by Kirby

44. Comment #83507 by John Desclin on October 30, 2007 at 9:13 am

Hi, oxytocin!
I would like to recommend reading from
http://www.FuturePsychiatry.com : although there are some errors (I think), I believe this would enforce your opinions. The book is rather unusual from a psychiatrist.
Best regards

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