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Thursday, September 20, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Why Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously

by Richard Skinner, Ekklesia

Reposted from:
http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/5721

It's easy to get annoyed, but Christians really ought to listen to and take seriously what Richard Dawkins has to say. With his high profile books, articles, television programmes and general media coverage, he has become the number one scourge of religion and religious believers of all and every stripe. He is articulate, passionate, an excellent speaker and a formidable intelligence. He has made important contributions to his particular discipline of evolutionary biology, most famously with his first book The Selfish Gene, but no less impressively with the follow-up volume The Extended Phenotype, and a series of subsequent books. He is a major player in his discipline.

His book The God Delusion appeared in 2006. This isn't about evolutionary biology with a few side-swipes at religion thrown in, this is a concentrated assault on religion. He launches a series of exocet missiles at religion, at the concept of God, the 'supernatural', faith-heads (which is his term for religious believers), theology – the whole bang-shoot, in fact. Inevitably he has triggered much response. The theologian Alister McGrath, an Oxford colleague of his, who had already written one book critiquing Dawkins' views on religion, riposted rapidly with The Dawkins Delusion. Another Christian riposte has come from a more evangelical quarter in Andrew Wilson's Deluded by Dawkins? Both authors demonstrate that many of Dawkins' arguments are strewn with error and misunderstanding.

However, in response to the statement "theologians say that Dawkins is wrong" we can echo Mandy Rice-Davies: "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?" It's part of their job description. Perhaps more significant, then, is the response Dawkins has drawn from non-Christian – or non-religious – quarters. Don't get me wrong: there are many who agree whole-heartedly with Dawkins. But consider the review of the book by Professor of English Terry Eagleton, a non-believer, which appeared in the London Review of Books (19 October 2006): it is a high octane demolition job.

Eagleton starts off "Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Card-carrying rationalists like Dawkins, who is the nearest thing to a professional atheist we have had since Bertrand Russell, are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they don't believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be." He continues for another 3,500 words to elaborate on this.

Now I think the critics of Richard Dawkins are in the main quite right. I say 'in the main' because Dawkins does make a number of valid points, particularly relating to the role of religion, and Christianity in particular, in the life of this country; but I agree that a large proportion of his book is indeed based on error. However, I don't think it right for us to say, "Ah, well, not only theologians but even atheists have demonstrated where Dawkins has gone wrong, therefore we don't have to take his views seriously."

We do have to take his views seriously, for more than one reason. Wilson suggests, and I agree with him, that Christians should be grateful to Dawkins, because "he has gathered together all of the best arguments against God's existence in one place, with the intention of debating them publicly." Quite so, but I think there's another reason to listen to Dawkins. It's this: theological writers and others can point out at length that what Dawkins does is to set up a straw man – or rather, a straw God – and then demolish it; they can show that Dawkins has not really got to grips at all with a true understanding of God and the religious dimension; but the straw God that Dawkins sets up and then demolishes is often uncomfortably close to the notion of God that we Christians all too frequently seem to talk about, pray to and worship.

What Dawkins demolishes in this book may well be a misrepresentation of God, but it is a misrepresentation, an idol, that we Christians all too have often set up and espoused as the real thing. We should listen to Dawkins because doing so can help us reflect on what we claim to believe, or think we believe, or imply that we believe. His views can act as an acid to eat away the false and phoney elements of our faith.

By way of example, Dawkins refers to 'The God Hypothesis' which "suggests that the reality we inhabit also contains a supernatural agent who designed the universe and – at least in many versions of the hypothesis – maintains it and even intervenes in it with miracles...." (p.81). God, in this understanding, refers to a fellow inhabitant of the universe. Earlier in the book, however, he takes a marginally more subtle line, and the hypothesis is that there is "a personal God dwelling within [the universe], or perhaps outside it (whatever that might mean)" possessing a whole range of unpleasant qualities he has earlier listed (p.59).

I doubt if many of us would fall into the simplistic belief that God is just another thing who inhabits the universe, such that if we went on a tour of the universe our guide would be saying "now ladies and gentlemen, over here is the solar system, over there is the Crab Nebula, watch our for the black hole at the centre; there's a super-nova; there's God, there's a comet...." and so forth. We don't think of God like that as simply an inhabitant of the universe. But what of the suggestion that God is outside the universe? I would guess most if not all past and present members of Sunday Schools and the like have sung, 'He's got the whole world in his hands', and other hymns or choruses with similar imagery which suggests an entity external to the universe. It may be a comforting image, and it may have a lot to recommend it – but there is the danger of it being too comforting and our taking it almost literally, which doesn't do justice to the biblical understanding of God as both immanent and transcendent – God dwelling within all things, but also greater than all things – and of God as a living presence.

Philosophers and theologians over the centuries, grappling with what is meant by 'God', have resorted to a different type of language, making statements such as "God is ultimate reality"; or "God is the ground of our being", or "God is the precondition that anything at all could exist", and so forth. In theological discourse, they can be very helpful concepts, but the trouble with them is that if you're not a philosopher or theologian, you feel your eyes glazing over - God has become a philosophical concept rather than a living presence.

Let's face it, it is easier for most of us to hold a clear but inaccurate image of what we think God is, rather than to live with the discomfort of not being able to pin God down precisely. Many a mystic has said, in effect, that all descriptions of God are false because they are so inadequate, but that is not a comfortable place to be in. We prefer a domesticated God that our comprehension can contain, a golden calf that we have fashioned for ourselves, and that we can see. Richard Dawkins in effect, even though he may not realise it, is pointing at a load of golden calves that we have fashioned over the millennia, and saying, "what a load of rubbish". But of course, to rubbish a golden calf is not the same thing as to rubbish the living God. Dawkins, unwittingly, can help us distinguish between the two!

So, if our understanding of God can be encapsulated in a nice, neat definition; a nice, neat God hypothesis; a nice, neat image; a nice, neat set of instructions – if, in other words, our understanding of God does approximate to a Dawkins version, then we are in danger of creating another golden calf. The alternative, the non-golden-calf route, is to sit light to definitions, hypotheses and images, and allow God to be God.

Challenges to our image of God is not new. Back in 1963, the then Bishop of Woolwich John Robinson published Honest to God. After an extract was published in The Observer newspaper under the heading 'Our Image of God Must Go' the book became a surprise bestseller and triggered off a major rumpus. Robinson was urging us to jettison old images of God - uncontentious in theological circles, but a shock to the person in the pew. Commenting on it twenty years later, Ken Leech had this to say: "The 'god' whose image must go might well have been a caricature of the Christian God, but it was a caricature which corresponded with a widely held view, a view which effectively prevented any real engagement with God as a living reality. Robinson did not create this situation: he merely laid bare the reality of existing confusion and unbelief" (True God Sheldon Press, 1985 p.6). I think Richard Dawkins – though he may well not sanction my saying this – is performing a similar challenging function to that of Robinson

Curious perhaps to compare Richard Dawkins to John Robinson, but whether such attacks on our images of God come from within the church or from outside it, it is no bad thing regularly to be reminded that all images of God fall far short of the reality encountered and witnessed to by Moses and the prophets, and by Jesus and the apostles. We should listen to Richard Dawkins. His understanding might be full of errors, but they are often our errors of understanding too.
---------

© Richard Skinner. The author is a poet, writer, qualified therapist and performer. He is currently undertaking doctoral research in the area of spirituality and evolutionary psychology. He is author of Invocations: calling on the God in all (Wild Goose Publishing, Iona). This article was originally given as an address at St Stephen's Anglican Church, Exeter.

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1. Comment #72118 by elfinabout on September 20, 2007 at 11:37 am

 avatarOh, where shall I start with this apologetic shamble of an article? I know - I simply won't bother. We've been here before...

Next?

Other Comments by elfinabout

2. Comment #72120 by Robert Maynard on September 20, 2007 at 11:41 am

 avatarReligious moderation - the position of being simultaneously forced into a corner and let loose in a field of meaningless ambiguity.


At the end of the day it's still a more benign position than fundamentalism.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

3. Comment #72124 by home8896 on September 20, 2007 at 11:49 am

 avatarHow does one even identify the difference between God and Straw God? This Straw God is easy to demolish because no one really knows that this isn't actually God, except by indoctrination. Certainly not by evidence.

The article speaks to an audience that probably read only the online articles - knowing that most people didn't bother reading either TGD or the rebuttals themselves. It speaks to an audience that won't listen to the reasons given for disbelief and this audience doesn't want to know that there might actually be reasons to disbelieve. That audience wants to be patted on the head and told to go back to their pretend game of knowing the unknowable.

Other Comments by home8896

4. Comment #72129 by HumanisticJones on September 20, 2007 at 11:59 am

Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the version of TGD that I read was a book about addressing the assertion "God exists" not addressing the various flavors of said god (ie Theology). I'm certain everyone that read TGD for theology critiques found it quite short in that regard... not because Prof. Dawkins is ill-suited to it, but because he didn't write that book about theology.

Other Comments by HumanisticJones

5. Comment #72131 by A.Lex on September 20, 2007 at 12:04 pm

..."it is no bad thing regularly to be reminded that all images of God fall far short of the reality encountered and witnessed to by Moses and the prophets, and by Jesus and the apostles."

This is the most meaningless sentence I've ever read!

Other Comments by A.Lex

6. Comment #72132 by scottishgeologist on September 20, 2007 at 12:05 pm

 avatarThe most telling part of this whole article is the bit at the end "Wild Goose Publishing, Iona" No more need be said.

This isnt rabid frothing mouthed right wing fundie-ism. This is the other side of the god coin - the wishy washy, fluffy, new age woo-woo that is ultra liberal "spirituality" which Iona is awash with.

This is real "be your own god" "god within us all" sort of stuff.

Actually, in some respects this stuff is reasonably harmless. And organisations like the Iona Community are strident in their social justice, peace, and CND initiatives.

But the article is still heavy going drivvle.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

7. Comment #72136 by steve99 on September 20, 2007 at 12:11 pm

 avatarThis kind of confused waffling is dealt with very nicely in a review of Darwin's Angel in this week's New Scientist magazine. The problem, the review states, is one of definition. The theologists need to clear up once and for all what definition of God they want to debate about. They can't have it both ways... God as just philosophical concept AND a God that is creator and designer and prayer-listener.

I did enjoy this:

The alternative, the non-golden-calf route, is to sit light to definitions, hypotheses and images, and allow God to be God.


Translation: "We don't have a clue what we are talking about, but whatever it is, it is not what Dawkins means"

Other Comments by steve99

8. Comment #72146 by MartinSGill on September 20, 2007 at 12:34 pm

 avatarI actually think this is a good article, but not for the reasons that Skinner might like.

I'm all for encouraging the religious to examine just what it is they believe in, that they really must read Dawkins and come to grips with what he says.

When the religious start examining the god they believe in and then compare it to the god the theological debating society envisages they'll discover that the two are nothing alike.

This will turn the fundies against the theologians, which will only be bad for religion and hence good for atheism. But it will also get many religious to really examine just what it is they believe. When they note all the contradictions between their long held beliefs and the convoluted, mind-boggling, spaghetti arguments used by theologians to rationalise something that doesn't actually exist, it might bring many of them to their senses.

In the end... anyone that gets religious people to read dawkins has my support. The more people read TGD the more people have a chance to examine their views in a different light and maybe break free of their religious shakles.

Richard Skinner is his own worst enemy. He doesn't realise that most religious people believe in the "Straw God", and not in his god. And getting those people to take RD seriously is a win for rationalism and atheism.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

9. Comment #72147 by Negasta on September 20, 2007 at 12:35 pm

I would guess most if not all past and present members of Sunday Schools and the like have sung, 'He's got the whole world in his hands'


Mein Gott, if the theists are now resorting to using imagery from children's ditties to try and prove their viewpoints, they must really be desperate.

Other Comments by Negasta

10. Comment #72149 by pewkatchoo on September 20, 2007 at 12:37 pm

 avatarWhat a piece of sham intellectual wank dribble.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

11. Comment #72151 by Mango on September 20, 2007 at 12:40 pm

 avatarSkinner asserts, "– if, in other words, our understanding of God does approximate to a Dawkins version, then we are in danger of creating another golden calf."

But Dawkins is very general about his description of the God he writes about as "a supernatural agent who designed the universe and – at least in many versions of the hypothesis – maintains it and even intervenes in it with miracles....". And this is what most theists indeed believe. Straw man? Not at all. And Skinner does indeed have a golden calf.

Other Comments by Mango

12. Comment #72153 by Bruno on September 20, 2007 at 12:42 pm

"Let's face it, it is easier for most of us to hold a clear but inaccurate image of what we think God is, rather than to live with the discomfort of not being able to pin God down precisely."

Most interesting sentence, in my opinion, in the whole article. Maybe it's me, but wow, I got to that sentence and found myself reading it over and over. Is it just me, or contained within or between the words of that sentence lies the psychology behind the need for belief in the supernatural.

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13. Comment #72155 by BAEOZ on September 20, 2007 at 12:44 pm

 avatarMetaphysical wankery. The God of the Bible is untenable, so say the theologians, so we define god as undefineable. The average church going punter or fundy defines just as Richard Dawkins demolished. What a waste of an article.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

14. Comment #72156 by Klaatu barada nikto on September 20, 2007 at 12:44 pm

 avatar
Challenges to our image of God is not new.


How true. Here is a book from 1772 that I've just started reading today. I suppose 235 years from now even more will be written.

http://www.ftarchives.net/holbach/good/gcontents.htm

Other Comments by Klaatu barada nikto

15. Comment #72163 by ksskidude on September 20, 2007 at 1:05 pm

 avatarWhy Christians should take Richard Dawkins seriously?

Because he's right. Pretty simple to me.
As usual another apolegetic diatribe that doesn't tell me a thing.

Other Comments by ksskidude

16. Comment #72164 by dbunker on September 20, 2007 at 1:06 pm

Having accused Dawkins of inventing a "straw" god, the author can't begin to fashion one even that substantial.

Other Comments by dbunker

17. Comment #72169 by PrimeNumbers on September 20, 2007 at 1:24 pm

 avatarLet's all play the definition game! If we can't define god, then those darned atheists can't disprove him as they need a definition.

What a bunch of loosers who just keep moving the goal posts. Sad thing is they don't really believe in god themselves, just the idea of god.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

18. Comment #72173 by Janus on September 20, 2007 at 1:35 pm

 avatarThese reviews of TGD by theists have done one thing for me: They have removed my last shred of doubt that devout believers (theists for whom religion is more than a tradition inherited from their parents to which they've never given any real thought) are all intellectually dishonest. All of them, without exception.

Other Comments by Janus

19. Comment #72174 by aitchkay on September 20, 2007 at 1:36 pm

 avatarI can't be bothered to respond to this nebulous nonsense. However, here are a few anagrams for your amusement:

Jesus Christ:
Such Jest Sir

Christianity:
- Cash I Trinity
- Satyric Hint I
- Ha Sic Trinity
- Anti Chis I Try
and for the really childish among us...
Airy Inch Tits

Other Comments by aitchkay

20. Comment #72184 by troodon on September 20, 2007 at 1:51 pm

My eyes glazed over about halfway through, but I think it went something like this:

"God is not all those silly caricatures and straw men espoused by Dawkins and almost every believer except the few very enlightened theologians like myself. He is much more than that. He is beyond definitions, hypotheses and images.He is greater than all things. God is God.

We may have problems defining what God is, but we do know that he wants you to believe in his existence, praise him, pray to him and come to church every Sunday. If you do that some part of you that is beyond definition will be able to praise him for eternity in a place that is beyond definition. If you don't believe in his existence you will be burned and tortured forever in a horrible place that is simply beyond definition.

You can help your chances of getting to that good place beyond definition by having us pray for that part of you that beyond definition. But in order for us to do that we need lots of something that is well within our range of definitions - money. Lots and lots of money. We prefer cash, and there's an ATM machine at the back of the church."

Other Comments by troodon

21. Comment #72191 by jimbob on September 20, 2007 at 2:00 pm

I don't where I saw this acronym (not my original idea), but perhaps we should lump all gods under the term "PESTS" (Putative Extraterrestrial Supernatural Things).

Other Comments by jimbob

22. Comment #72197 by antialiasis on September 20, 2007 at 2:08 pm

Am I the only person who actually thinks this guy is making a great point?

He's exactly /not/ trying to wave Richard off by saying he's not attacking the God people believe in. He's saying that those of faith ought to reexamine what they believe, exactly because so many people do believe in that very kind of God. He's saying Richard is right and that belief in this kind of God just doesn't work out, so believers should reconsider whether that is really the God they believe in. This is entirely true. The only part where this guy is wrong is where he refuses to acknowledge that the alternative - the intangible, theological, "intellectual" God - is nothing more than a pointless complication for the sake of comfort in an otherwise perfectly atheistic worldview.

Other Comments by antialiasis

23. Comment #72198 by Johan on September 20, 2007 at 2:10 pm

"What Dawkins demolishes in this book may well be a misrepresentation of God, but it is a misrepresentation, an idol, that we Christians all too have often set up and espoused as the real thing."

eh.., yeah, and what exactly IS the real thing? If the real thing really existed it wouldn't be so bloody difficult to define it, would it?

Cheers

Other Comments by Johan

24. Comment #72203 by Mr DArcy on September 20, 2007 at 2:19 pm

 avatarSorry, non believers, you see you just can't win this argument. This God character is just such slippery eel that logic doesn't apply. For example, Skinner presumably believes in:

the biblical understanding of God as both immanent and transcendent – God dwelling within all things, but also greater than all things – and of God as a living presence.


To my simple mind this reminds me of the old 60's song;

"He's everywhere and nowhere baby,
That's where he's at."


If memory serves correctly, there was also "hi ho silver lining". The Yardbirds with Eric Clapton on guitar. In the late 60's and 70's it was not at all unusual to see graffiti on walls stating "Eric Clapton is God", or words to that effect. Perhaps our tame theologian was inspired by the Cream of the gods!

Other Comments by Mr DArcy

25. Comment #72208 by CambrianExplosion on September 20, 2007 at 2:26 pm

 avatarTranslation:

"Dawkins refutes other versions of God, but not MY God. My God is the RIGHT one, not one of these incorrect, illogical versions that is so easily refuted. You should read Dawkins so you can understand how wrong you've been and how right I am."

There, much shorter.

Other Comments by CambrianExplosion

26. Comment #72215 by GBile on September 20, 2007 at 2:34 pm

 avatarOk, let us try this: EVERY God is a straw-god.

Other Comments by GBile

27. Comment #72219 by shaunfletcher on September 20, 2007 at 2:40 pm

 avatarSo now they retreat further, to 'well that might be what we believed till RECENTLY'..

Newsflash. It IS what the vast bulk of the worlds religious people believe. They believe, unequivocally, in a god who exists in the universe, intervenes in it, controls it. a sky father is a very very accurate description of the god of the vast majority of religious people. By majority I mean 99.99 percent or thereabouts.

And anyway, the god of theologians is just as non existent, just as logically stupid, its only difference is that it is designed to be incomprehensible to anyone other than a theologian (or someone willing to spend the time and mental effort to actually understand their wafflings long enough to see through them) and so lacking in substance that it dissapears as soon as you get close to it.. and therefore to be impervious to logic.

Its not working however. We saw what you did there guys.

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28. Comment #72226 by steve99 on September 20, 2007 at 2:45 pm

 avatar
By majority I mean 99.99 percent or thereabouts.


There is a very simple question to put to any theologist who doubts this...

"What proportion of believers pray?"

Anyone who prays obviously believes to some extent in an interventionist God.

Other Comments by steve99

29. Comment #72229 by shaunfletcher on September 20, 2007 at 2:50 pm

 avatarWell indeed. I personally have met ONE self declared christian (out of many hundreds), and no muslims (out of many), who do not believe god intervenes directly in the world. The ones who accept there are no miracles say things like "Well he is withholding them, it isnt the 'age of miracles' at the moment".

Your ordinary person in the pews is very very clear what kind of god they believe in.

Other Comments by shaunfletcher

30. Comment #72232 by drive1 on September 20, 2007 at 2:52 pm

 avatarArticles like this are good. The author almost gets it. He understands that any attempt to define god results in a static target that can be comprehensively debunked. The only god impossible to pin to the floor is the nebulous, will-o-the-wisp god of the gaps which, of course, only an elitist educated theologian can understand.

I take heart from this. The fault lines are unmistakable.

Other Comments by drive1

31. Comment #72235 by LoneStarTravis on September 20, 2007 at 2:56 pm

Mr. Skinner has answered Dawkins' recent question: Yes, you must apparently be fully educated in leprechology before disbelieving in leprechauns.

Other Comments by LoneStarTravis

32. Comment #72238 by Quine on September 20, 2007 at 2:57 pm

 avatarantialiasis,
Very nice comment. One of the things going on out there is that the theologians are calling Dawkins down for going after the "sky daddy" deity that they don't study. However, what the theologians study is not what the public worships. That is why you do not have to study theology to brush aside what people actually worship. Meanwhile, the theologians are going around in circular arguments not based on evidence, and coming to untestable conclusions that the public could never properly evaluate, anyway. (And thus keep their jobs going.)

Other Comments by Quine

33. Comment #72251 by Logicel on September 20, 2007 at 3:12 pm

 avatarThis article reminded me of the cheery advice commonly given: When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

Skinner's version, when belief in God is challenged (lemons), make your own favorite pitcher of Godade--well diluted, with lots of sugar, to ease away the cognitive dissonance caused by those acidic critics of religion.

Faith and the belief in belief powerfully resists reason; the more reason is directed at faith-heads, the stronger their faith or their need to continue to believe becomes. Their twisting the situation to feed their addiction become craftier and more creative. Skinner needs not only to do that for himself, but he needs to reach out and encourage others to make up nice big refreshing pitchers of Godade. He apparently is concerned that his fellow believers might go thirsty.

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34. Comment #72273 by Russell's Teapot on September 20, 2007 at 3:47 pm

 avatar
"What Dawkins demolishes in this book may well be a misrepresentation of God, but it is a misrepresentation, an idol, that we Christians all too have often set up and espoused as the real thing."
Um, correct me if I'm wrong here, but if Christians are representing this "misrepresentation" as the god they believe in, isn't that the damn god they believe in?! This article makes my brain hurt...

Other Comments by Russell's Teapot

35. Comment #72288 by locri on September 20, 2007 at 4:41 pm

Every time I read something like this I really have to wonder: What the heck DOES it take to be considered "knowledgeable" enough to criticize religion?

Seriously, I'm quite sure Dawkin's has read both The Bible (both old testament and new) as well as a few other religious books... frankly, there isn't much more "knowledge" to religion other than the books that some people wrote who were supposedly inspired by god or possessed by god or something along those lines.

Gah... such inane arguments and they are all the same because there is little else they can do except claim "oh, that's not MY god, you must be thinking some other god".

Other Comments by locri

36. Comment #72295 by Theocrapcy on September 20, 2007 at 5:13 pm

 avatarWait, don't tell me.

- Dawkins doesn't understand God.
- Christians are thankful for the opportunity.
- Dawkins is not a theologian and cannot speak.
- Dawkins' picture of God is not the god we believe in.

Sound about right?

Other Comments by Theocrapcy

37. Comment #72297 by superlucky20 on September 20, 2007 at 5:27 pm

"So, if our understanding of God can be encapsulated in a nice, neat definition; a nice, neat God hypothesis; a nice, neat image; a nice, neat set of instructions – if, in other words, our understanding of God does approximate to a Dawkins version, then we are in danger of creating another golden calf. The alternative, the non-golden-calf route, is to sit light to definitions, hypotheses and images, and allow God to be God."

Allow God to be God, Mr. Skinner? If he ain't YHWH, Allah, Krishna, Odin, Zeus, Baal, Ahura Mazda, etc., who or what is he then, sir? What characteristics (or super powers) of the aforementioned deities does he have? Or by mutual exclusivity, have none of these characteristics? Willing to attribute any new ones? No? Willing to make another guess? No? Can't we just give this stuff up and move on to more useful matters?

Other Comments by superlucky20

38. Comment #72298 by Jestyr on September 20, 2007 at 5:28 pm

Hmm, I almost liked this article. It seemed such a nice defence of a deist position, along the lines of God is something we can't understand or imagine but having him here is important. It's nice basic wooly thinking from people who want 'something up there' And skinner is right, it is hard to attack this god. Then he goes and ties it all down to moses and jesus in the bible, bringing it right back to the position that Dawkins, Hitchens et al have demolished again and again and again.
Nice try though

Other Comments by Jestyr

39. Comment #72299 by Inferno on September 20, 2007 at 5:29 pm

 avatarI found this interesting.....

the straw God that Dawkins sets up and then demolishes is often uncomfortably close to the notion of God that we Christians all too frequently seem to talk about, pray to and worship.


Previsely why these theologians complaining their god is different from Dawkins description is meaningless. The vast majority of theists believe in precisely the sort of god Dawkins mentioned.

Further, these articles always seem to say that theologians god is different, but never exactly explain how. The best they can do is....

Philosophers and theologians over the centuries, grappling with what is meant by 'God'


In other words, they presume God exists then try to work out what god is like.

Dawkins gave the most simple and wide definition of god you could imagine. One that tries to pin down what is the fundamental basic idea of what is god. And that is, that god created the universe and, too most theists, continues to interfer with the universe.

I have yet to see a single article give a shred of good evidence why this god exists or why their god is different to this god. Their god may be more than this definition, but surely this is the basic premise of god?

Other Comments by Inferno

40. Comment #72302 by Damien White on September 20, 2007 at 5:32 pm

Every time I hear the 'argument' that [insert atheist author here] should have read more theology, I always ask myself if the writers of said theology have access to more source material than me. Of course they don't. They read the bible to come to their conclusions. I read the bible and came to different conclusions. My conclusion was that it's extremely difficult to take the bible seriously given a) it's history, b) it's numerous factual errors, and c) it's internal contradictions.
In other words, it led me to the conclusion that no conclusions could be drawn regarding the existence or nature of deities (legitimate and condoned worship of other gods is mentioned several times) from such a shabby and obviously stage-managed train wreck of a book.
Unless a thologian can demonstrate that they have discovered a new source of knowledge, they have nothing to add to the debate.

Other Comments by Damien White

41. Comment #72309 by Inferno on September 20, 2007 at 5:52 pm

 avatarTheologians and theists are alot like Star Trek fans. They worship all the various series from the original to Enterprise, and are now desparately trying to explain away all the apparent contradictions..... "Oh well, you see when Scotty came out of the transporter he assumed Kirk would be there because the sub space array was refitted to release an energy beam that went back in time ...."

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42. Comment #72331 by Cartomancer on September 20, 2007 at 6:47 pm

 avatarHas anybody seen the ID/Creationism Bingo Cards over on Pharyngula? We could probably do some for responses to TGD too.

"My God is beyond definition", "Theologians have been grappling for centuries", "God is beyond scientific evidence", "Dawkins hasn't read enough Theology"... BINGO!

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43. Comment #72336 by Satanburiedfossils on September 20, 2007 at 7:01 pm

 avatarIs God outside the "universe"?

Well, if you accept the biblical model and define the known universe as everything contained inside the firmament (the sky, the celestial bodies, the earth) and believe that God walks on top of the firmament (Job 22:14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit [vault] of heaven.), then, yes, God is outside the universe.

(However, it is worth noting that he does occasionally pop inside the firmament. This is usually followed by great heapings of bloodshed and destruction. So if you ask me, better for him to stay right where he is.)

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44. Comment #72338 by Russell Blackford on September 20, 2007 at 7:03 pm

Funny, when I read some of these nice moderates like Richard Skinner, my main response isn't that I think they are correct (I don't think that) but that I warm to them. I'd probably enjoy talking to Skinner over a beer.

Whatever its faults, this piece is more thoughtful and insightful than a lot of the material we've seen from politically-correct non-believers. Again, whatever their faults, people like this are not our enemies, and there would have been no urgent need for books like The God Delusion if they were typical of what religionists are like.

Apart from the more subtle issues, though, I don't believe that Richard uses the term "faith-head" for religious believers. My impression was that he used the term only twice in his book, and reserved it for those dogmatic believers who are immune to rational argument. It's a synonym for "dogmatist", not for "believer". I prefer not to use the term, because it lends itself to becoming a term of abuse for any religionist, but that's not what I thought Richard was originally doing with it. He was applying it only to that sub-set of believers who deserve it.

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45. Comment #72339 by PeterK on September 20, 2007 at 7:04 pm

If I could talk with Richard Skinner face to face:

"Alright Mr. Skinner, describe to me in a detailed comprehensive manner--EXACTLY what 'God' is. Take as long as you like. And from there I will examine
what you have said and, and then assess your description how I see accordingly."

So far what is happening is that theists are re-inventing their definition of God, because these 'New Atheists' keep pulling THEIR God's pants down, and His little dinky is flapping in the breeze for all to see.

And they don't like that.

Sooo, this now blushing entity is no longer their God, and if the atheists attack him, hey they'e beating a StrawGod!

These guys have to understand at some point
that atheists are who they are because they don't
fall for this deception.

And the theists do--that's why they're theists.

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46. Comment #72341 by sabre_truth on September 20, 2007 at 7:08 pm

These moderate theologians basically believe what I believe, up to a point: we only understand parts of the cosmos; the whole is beyond our present ability to grasp in precise terms, and it may very well forever remain so. But it is still a leap to identify that ineffable reality that lies beyond the bounds of our finite experience expressible within the limits of our language with the God spoken of in the Bible. It is an even greater leap (and evident absurdity) to put stock in any claimed knowledge of its "will", based on this particular cultural artifact.

There is simply no evidential reason for preferring that identification to say, the 'emptiness' spoken of in Madhyamaka Buddhism (and, I might add, much evidential reason to believe that the 'caricature' was actually what the Biblical prophets believed in). The only "reasons" to label the unexplained in a given way are completely subjective, intuitive, and aesthetic choices. I choose simply to call it the unknown and not tie it to any cultural baggage, especially those claiming to direct how one should live one's life. Then I am inspired only to accept that my understanding is always incomplete, and to continue to learn further facets of truth as they can be known: the subjective truths of my aesthetic life, and the probabilistic objective truths of science.

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47. Comment #72343 by NoLongerHaveBelief on September 20, 2007 at 7:18 pm

Interesting points, Sabre-tooth.

I just visited a 'believers' website.

http://www.godandscience.org/

Too be fair, it's well written. Still a load of codswallop though! I particularly enjoyed the part about Love/ True Love. Apparently God IS Love.

Hmmm. Thanks for being so loving God. Only a loving God could have thought up of all those nasty disease-endings were all in for. Not to mention suffering, pain, pestilence and a plethora of other evidence that shouts EVO-LOO-SHUN.

Say it believers. Evolution. It doesn't hurt and it is far more thrilling, far more truthful, far more intuitive, far more exciting than awaiting judgement day.

Whatever that is.

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48. Comment #72349 by notsobad on September 20, 2007 at 7:31 pm

 avatarAnd to think we could avoid all this if they taught 'argumentum ad ignorantiam' in the first grade.

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49. Comment #72358 by mmurray on September 20, 2007 at 8:05 pm

 avatarThis article explains something that I had always wondered about. Why don't the people who keep telling us that TGD doesn't address the latest theological thinking tell us what the latest theological thinking is? Sure it might be difficult but people like Richard can explain technical biology to a general audience so surely there is a theologian somewhere who can explain modern theology to us or at least give us a glimpse of it. But they don't want to because it will mean admitting to all the regular church going public that the God TGD has supposedly not demolished is a mysterious deity who isn't really interested in their petty illnesses and concerns or whether they use condoms and by the way there is no heaven or hell. They just want to reassure the church going public that some theologian somewhere has answered the criticisms in TGD without explaining how much the church going public are going to hate the answer!

As Dr Spock would have said `It's God Jim but not as we know it'.

I am with MartinSGill -- if we can get these people to admit that the straw God TGD demolishes is the people's God we are well on the way to winning. If the God that TGD doesn't demolish is outside the University and not interested in telling us how to run our lives then who cares!

Michael

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50. Comment #72360 by Goldy on September 20, 2007 at 8:15 pm

Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology

Imagine reading a 3500 word criticism of Richard Dawkins' arguments by a non-believing professor of English. That would make first year theology students wince!

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