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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 | Reason : Religion as Child Abuse | print version Print | Comments

Document Polygamist Leader Convicted in Utah

by Jennifer Dobner

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/25/AR2007092500290.html?hpid=moreheadlines

courtroomST. GEORGE, Utah -- The leader of a polygamous Mormon splinter group was convicted Tuesday of being an accomplice to rape for forcing a 14-year-old girl to marry her 19-year-old cousin.

Warren Jeffs, 51, could get life in prison after a trial that threw a spotlight on a renegade community along the Arizona-Utah line where as many as 10,000 of Jeffs' followers practice plural marriage and revere him as a mighty prophet with dominion over their salvation.

Jeffs stood and, like his 15 followers in the courtroom, wore a stoic look as the verdict was read.

Prosecutors said Jeffs, who performed the ceremony, forced the girl into marriage and sex against her will. Jurors said they agreed Jeffs rejected the girl's pleas and refused to release her from the marriage.

"He was pretty much her only ticket out of the relationship," said juror Jerry Munk, 36.

Defense attorney Wally Bugden, who told jurors that Jeffs was a victim of religious persecution, declined to comment.

The jury deliberated about 16 hours over three days. On Tuesday morning, the judge replaced a juror with an alternate for undisclosed reasons.

Members of the jury said the deliberations went fairly quickly with the new juror. She told other members of the jury what she was thinking about the case, then talks resumed, they said. Fellow jurors credited her with raising some new points that helped move the group toward a decision.

While polygamy itself was not on trial _ the couple were monogamous _ the case focused attention on the practice of polygamy in Utah, where it has generally been tolerated in the half-century since a government raid in 1953 proved a public relations disaster, with children photographed being torn from their mothers' arms.

Jeffs succeeded his father in 2002 as president of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Former members say he rules with an iron fist, demanding perfect obedience from followers and exercising the right to arrange marriages as well as break them up and assign new spouses.

"This trial has not been about religion or vendetta. It was simply about child abuse and preventing abuse," the victim, now 21, said in prepared remarks after the verdict.

"The easy thing would have been to do nothing, but I have followed my heart and spoken the truth," she said, declining to take questions from reporters.

At the trial, widely different versions of the relationship _ and Jeffs' influence _ were presented by the woman and her former husband, Allen Steed, 26.

At their wedding in 2001 at a Nevada motel, the woman said, she cried in despair when pressed by Jeffs to say "I do" and had to be coaxed to kiss her new husband. The woman testified that FLDS girls receive no information about their bodies or reproduction. She said she didn't even know sex was the means by which women conceived.

The woman said the couple were married for at least a month before they had intercourse, her husband telling her it was "time for you to be a wife and do your duty."

"My entire body was shaking. I was so scared," she testified. "He just laid me on the bed and had sex."

Afterward, she slipped into the bathroom, where she downed two bottles of over-the-counter pain reliever and curled up on the floor, she said. "The only thing I wanted to do was die," she said.

But Steed testified that his teenage bride initiated their first sexual encounter, approaching him after he fell asleep in his clothes after a 12-hour day at work.

Under Utah law, a 14-year-old can consent to sex in some circumstances. But sex is not considered consensual if a person under 18 is enticed by someone at least three years older.

For reasons prosecutors have never explained, Steed has not been charged with a crime.

The mainstream Mormon Church, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, renounced polygamy more than a century ago, excommunicates members who engage in the practice, and disavows any connection to the FLDS church.

Jeffs is also charged in Arizona with being an accomplice to both incest and sexual misconduct with a minor for arranging marriages between two underage girls and relatives of theirs. In addition, Jeffs is under federal indictment in Utah on charges of fleeing to avoid prosecution.

The charismatic Jeffs was captured in a traffic stop last year just outside Las Vegas after about 18 months on the run. At the time, he was on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list, alongside such figures as Osama bin Laden.

Jeffs was in a red Cadillac Escalade in which investigators found more than $57,000, cell phones, prepaid credit cards, wigs and sunglasses.

"Everyone should now know that no one is above the law, religion is not an excuse for abuse and every victim has a right to be heard," said Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, who had endorsed the prosecution in Washington County.

Since at least the 1920s, members of the FLDS have lived in the twin towns of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, where the women wear long prairie dresses and have long braided hair, and the men dress modestly too, often in buttoned-up shirts.

All homes and other property were kept in a trust controlled by Jeffs and other church leaders until a judge in 2005 put an accountant in charge because of allegations of mismanagement.

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1. Comment #73690 by Pieter on September 25, 2007 at 9:37 pm

Anyone who's up for a good read on Mormon fundamentalism (and a lot of mainstream mormonism as well) should pick up a book by John Krakauer called "Under the Banner of Heaven." It was published a few years ago but it mentions Jeffs' group and what goes on in their communities.

Other Comments by Pieter

2. Comment #73702 by Big T on September 25, 2007 at 11:16 pm

Ordering a frightened fourteen year old girl to have sex against her wishes should be a crime everywhere on earth, whether the person doing the ordering claims a divine sanction or not. I'm glad the jury returned a guilty verdict. A blow has been struck for rationality, civilization and humanity against blind obedience to superstition, fear and ignorance.

Other Comments by Big T

3. Comment #73711 by Mr C on September 25, 2007 at 11:58 pm

There is a very good documentary on this church and on the search for Jeffs - Banking on Heaven. It was realeased in 2006 before his arrest.

The film is very powerful in that it conveys the secrecy and power of this church in a way that the above text cannot. Definitely worth a watch.

Other Comments by Mr C

4. Comment #73719 by Corylus on September 26, 2007 at 12:58 am

 avatar
"Everyone should now know that no one is above the law, religion is not an excuse for abuse and every victim has a right to be heard," said Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff, who had endorsed the prosecution in Washington County.

Absolutely. Let justice be done, though the heavens fall...

Other Comments by Corylus

5. Comment #73722 by Crazymalc on September 26, 2007 at 1:24 am

 avatarThis is sad on so many levels.

One can't help but feel sorry for the poor, poor little girl.

Other Comments by Crazymalc

6. Comment #73726 by Veronique on September 26, 2007 at 1:38 am

 avatarMr C

I watched the trailer of that doco. Neither of my local video stores has it. Looks very frightening, but I wouldn't mind seeing it. Not sure that I want to buy it, though an argument could be made for having it in my personal lending library:-).

Got any suggestions?
V

Other Comments by Veronique

7. Comment #73732 by Peacebeuponme on September 26, 2007 at 2:24 am

Ah. The story is not about polygamy, but child abuse. Good to see there is a conviction then.

Its interesting the the law bans polygamy in many countries (backed up by "christian" values in some cases). Its not for me, either way around, but I don't see why we, or the law, should interfere with what other consenting adults get up to.

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8. Comment #73740 by shaunfletcher on September 26, 2007 at 3:46 am

Like incest, the 'problem' is rarely actually to do with the thing itself (does anyone genuinely care if an adult brother and sister sleep together? or if one woman/man and two women/men want a tripartite marriage?)

The problem is that so very much of the time that isnt the story at all. The story is one of power, abuse, children being dominated and abused, brainwashing from an early age, etc etc.

Other Comments by shaunfletcher

9. Comment #73745 by steveroot on September 26, 2007 at 4:01 am

 avatarBill Maher said it pretty succinctly:
"(This) religion is batshit."
Steve

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10. Comment #73747 by Logicel on September 26, 2007 at 4:06 am

 avatarThe charismatic Jeffs was captured in a traffic stop last year...
_______

Charismatic? You need to be a Stepford zombie to find this guy appealing.

Bravo to this young woman who followed her quest for justice and received it. May she continue to live a productive, joyful, and interesting life.

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11. Comment #73748 by Mysturji on September 26, 2007 at 4:07 am

 avatarI'l bet this guy is in favour of the seperation of church and state: The state is interfering with his god-given right to rape children.

Other Comments by Mysturji

12. Comment #73756 by bamboospitfire on September 26, 2007 at 4:43 am

 avatarReligion is not an excuse for abuse? Well said. But then, religion is not an excuse for anything.

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13. Comment #73766 by Yorker on September 26, 2007 at 5:39 am

 avatar8. Comment #73740 by shaunfletcher

Your mention of incest made me think. I have two sisters both of whom are still very attractive and in my youth, on occasion wondered why I never had any sexual thoughts about them. This is not my field but it seems like there's an in-built mechanism against incest. Maybe in some people it doesn't exist or they're able to overcome it.

Does anyone have a professional opinion on it?

Other Comments by Yorker

14. Comment #73772 by Russell Blackford on September 26, 2007 at 6:08 am

^There's a fair bit of evidence that we are not attracted to people with whom we grew up as young children - seems to be innate. That's a reasonable proxy for not being sexually attracted to siblings ... hence we tend to find the idea of sex with our siblings repulsive or off-putting, even if we haven't been specifically taught to, and no matter how attractive they may be.

I gather that this theory is not completely uncontroversial, so don't take what I've said as ... erm ... gospel. But it seems plausible to me. It seems to fit the facts, including the universality of moralised distaste for sibling incest, and any psychological mechanism that cut down on sibling incest would have had advantages for reproductive fitness back in the EEA.

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15. Comment #73777 by Russell Blackford on September 26, 2007 at 6:36 am

Peacebuponme, I totally agree, although I do think that institutionalised polgyny tends not to be good for women, children, or low status men. There seems to be some evidence for the first two and the first and third stand to reason in any event.

What particular groups of individuals do by choice in a liberal society is another matter - for a particular threesome, or whatever, it might be best, and it should be their decision if they are all old enough to know what they are doing. I'm not in favour of monogamous values being enforced on everyone by the law regardless of the quirky feelings of individuals.

But once you turn polygamy into the norm rather than an unusual option from a liberal society's sexual cafetaria (with polyandry being just as accepted, as an option, as polygyny), you do create problems, among them that, as shaunfletcher says the relationships are likely to become unchosen and exploitative. With instutionalised polygyny, you also get extreme and dehumanising public puritanism and even misogyny because women are in relationships that are not to their benefit, and must be constrained to stay in them, e.g. by banning public sexual display or anything that can be construed as such (hide those pretty faces, ladies, hide that hair ... that body shape!), preventing social relations with men outside the family, etc.

So, I'm all for flexibility: from personal observation, lots of people can find ourselves in love with two people at once, and the more rational of them often find creative ways to work through it without too much moralising (though with varied degrees of success). But institutionalised polygynous social norms are something quite different and are bad news.

However, the bottom line in this case is that the rights and wrongs of non-monogamous arrangements didn't have to be settled. The case was about non-consensual sex - inflicted on someone who was little more than a child - not some nice, consensual poly thing.

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16. Comment #73790 by mdowe on September 26, 2007 at 7:47 am

 avatarI don't care how adults chose to live their life. Frankly, I don't see it as any of my business. But you would think that people who worry about having the values of their country's Christian majority shoved down their throat, would be more conscious of doing the same thing to someone else. The idea of forcing myself sexually on *anyone* (much less someone barely more than a child -- and the 'barely more' is debatable) is absolutely repugnant. But then I guess I'm just a amoral atheist....

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17. Comment #73815 by annabanana on September 26, 2007 at 9:00 am

 avatarYorker,

There is also evidence that people who have similar genetics are repelled by one another's pheremones. I would imagine that if there is that one such "built-in" mechanism that there are others as well, but this is the only one I've read about.

Other Comments by annabanana

18. Comment #73824 by 82abhilash on September 26, 2007 at 9:26 am


13. Comment #73766 by Yorker on September 26, 2007 at 5:39 am

8. Comment #73740 by shaunfletcher

Your mention of incest made me think. I have two sisters both of whom are still very attractive and in my youth, on occasion wondered why I never had any sexual thoughts about them. This is not my field but it seems like there's an in-built mechanism against incest. Maybe in some people it doesn't exist or they're able to overcome it.

Does anyone have a professional opinion on it?



Yes Yorker the phenomenon has been studied and well documented. It was first observed by Edvard Alexander Westermarck - a Finnish philosopher and sociologist. "When two people live in close domestic proximity during the first few years in the life of either one, both are desensitized to later close sexual attraction." This phenomenon was especially prevalent in the Israeli kibbutz system, where all children where made to sleep together in a huge communal bedroom. Hardly anyone of them married members within the kibbutz when they grew up, even when they where encouraged to do so by their parents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect#Westermarck_effect

But the Westermarck effect does not show any sensitivity to biological relatives. It works impartially on any group of children who shared very close proximity during childhood. But we all know that most of the time such children tend to be siblings. So that is our inaccurate but useful mechanism against incest, perhaps naturally selected by evolution. Why not? Before birth control such relationships could make babies too unhealthy to live normally.

This would imply of course that siblings that are not brought up together has the potential to be sexually attracted to one another. There is at least one case in the recent media to show that is possible. It has happened in Germany.

Patrick Stübing, an unemployed locksmith, and his sister Susan have had four children together since starting a sexual relationship in 2000. Three of the children are in foster care, and two have unspecified disabilities. The couple, who live near Leipzig, grew up separately and only met many years later.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,2022008,00.html


8. Comment #73740 by shaunfletcher
does anyone genuinely care if an adult brother and sister sleep together?


No, but given that I do have a sister, who grew up with me; I feel disgusted, when someone makes such a suggestion. But that is my life and my choice right? What about other adults and their choice? Sure, if it suits them. But if someone I know is involved in such an act, I would have nothing to do with them from then on. Also given that such an act is illegal in most of the world anyway, I can comfortably say, such people can end up in trouble with the law. And if they do, I will neither feel any sympathy for them nor feel obligated in any way to defend them. Yes I am being open about my bias here.

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19. Comment #73850 by irate_atheist on September 26, 2007 at 10:59 am

 avatarYou're fucking NICKED, me old beauty!


(Thanks be to Python)

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20. Comment #73855 by Bertybob on September 26, 2007 at 11:13 am

 avatarI think this illustrates the controlling nature of religious "leaders" to "control" their flock.

I thought in TGD that RD let religion off lightly in that department.

I can imaging various Popes and other denominations leaders bending and interpreting the "good book" for their own personal gain / wealth / status etc.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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21. Comment #73860 by Linda on September 26, 2007 at 11:36 am

The cultural taboos against incest stem from practical reasons, as without new material the gene pool is prone to perpetuate unwanted physical and mental characteristics. Some of you may have Türkiye, which at first was heralded as a possible link in the evolution of our species however on closer examination of the family and its predisposition to incest reveals that the inability to walk upright is due to inbreeding:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4782492.stm

The problem with polygamist sects is they are forms of slavery that facilitate the abuse of women and children by rather devious and controlling men. Oh sure they call themselves prophets however the correct term is 'for profit'. Women are not given the choice to have multiple husband/sex partners, as their primary role is that of brood sows.

There exists today an underground railroad shuttling pre-pubescent female children between the Warren Jeffs' compounds in the USA and it's Canadian outlet in Bountiful, British Columbia. I do not know why the Canadian government doesn't crack down on this other than the Bishop of Bountiful seems to have political clout:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/bustupinbountiful/

The obvious benefit to men of joining fundamentalist sects is that it gives them power over women. The same problems found in so-called Christian sects are also inherent in Islam and Orthodox Judaism. The big perk for men is obviously the 'get out of jail free card' bestowed by the gods which is a carte blanche excuse to have sex with children. Catholic priests in the west are pretty much exposed on this issue however there is a way to go when it comes to Islam and Orthodox Judaism. Why is it so hard to marginalize the social misfits? Is this problem stemming from the mandated sexual repression of monotheism? Of course the men who are vilified as perverts and pedophiles in the regular community that are not hiding behind sanctimonious superstition are easily indicted and discredited as they are doing it without permission of the gods.

If children are not involved and consenting adults living free in the community decide to opt for polygamous relationships then maybe that is their business.

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22. Comment #73865 by Yorker on September 26, 2007 at 11:54 am

 avatar18. Comment #73824 by 82abhilash

Thanks for the information.

Possibly the "taboo" in the German couple was broken by their long separation. Clearly, they should have used contraceptives but the fact they want to be togther should take precedence over anything else in my opinion. Middle-aged and elderly brother and sisters living together is not umcommon, often it's forced upon them by circumstance and some probably just want the company.

Who's to say that some might be having sex and why would we care; none of our business.

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23. Comment #73870 by mdowe on September 26, 2007 at 12:14 pm

 avatarComment #73860 by Linda


The big perk for men is obviously the 'get out of jail free card' bestowed by the gods which is a carte blanche excuse to have sex with children


While men are generally attracted to young women (politically incorrect as it may be), *most* men would not consider having sex with children a 'perk'. I think you're showing a prejudice here. I suspect its more true to say it takes something like a religion to have otherwise normal men override the instinct to protect children. The majority of us men are actually pretty decent folk if you give us a chance =)

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24. Comment #73918 by walk on September 26, 2007 at 2:53 pm

 avatarBravo to the jury for convicting Jeffs! I read that sentencing will be in late Nov. He's facing 10 years to life on these two counts, with more charges to face elsewhere in the near future. I also heard that the "husband" will be charged soon.

Concerning the threesome subject mentioned above, in my limited experiences in this area, I found that it usually doesn't work because someone inevitably feels left out and jealous. I think it would take very secure, open-minded individuals to make it work. Is anyone aware of such a case being successful in the long term?

Not having a sister, I have often wondered about sibling sexual attraction. I asked a guy I work with who's sister is very sexually attractive if he ever experienced any feelings towards her. "Nope! No way! Nada!"

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25. Comment #73942 by Russell Blackford on September 26, 2007 at 5:32 pm

walk, in some Western sub-cultures (science fiction fandom being the one that I'm familiar with) various kinds of polyamorous arrangements are well-accepted and, if not exactly the norm, at least quite common. Do these arrangements work out in the long term? Well, I'll just say that the one that works out permanently always seems to be one that you hear about second or third hand. :)

But lots of conventional couples don't stay together for the long term, either. Serial monogamy has become the social norm. It would be good to have some data, but my anecdotal observation is that people who get into more "exotic" arrangements would be ill-advised to think it will work permanently; but they would be well-advised to think that it might work out as well as many good conventional relationships do ... i.e., if you judge "good" on the basis of "lasts for awhile (like years rather than weeks or months)", "gives people happiness at the time", and "doesn't leave too much of a trainwreck behind". So, I'm all for more social and political acceptance of unconventional relationships tailored to the needs of the people involved ... and one of the obstacles to these relationships working out long term is that they usually have to be masked somewhat outside the immediate social sub-culture where the people hang out - e.g. employers are not going to want to know. My point is that they work in a way that is totally different from institutionalised polygamy which really is a bad thing, pretty much unequivocally as far as I can see.

I'm not sure why I keep blathering about all this, except that I'm teaching a philosophy of sex course this semester and it's kind of on my mind - hopefully, my students are all capable of blathering in this way by now, having been reading their Hrdy and so on.

And of course, journalists will make this court case sound as if it was about polygamy, as with the headline: "Polygamist Leader Convicted in Utah". In fact, it wasn't about polygamy at all, but about the repeated rape of a very young, vulnerable person, and about said religious leader being an accomplice in that rape. This should really be the focus.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

26. Comment #73943 by BAEOZ on September 26, 2007 at 5:39 pm

 avatarRussell, off topic question, but since you mentioned teaching philosophy; Does Deakin Uni have a good philosophy faculty? I've been thinking of changing to philosophy or doing some non-core philosophy subjects as I've been bitten by the philosophy bug over the last 6 months. The student guide mentions that Deakin specializes in Asian, psycho-analysis and western philosophy. I'm not sure why Freud et al are considered part of the basics of philosophy. I'd have thought more psychology (which is what I'm studying now.) Does Monash do the same (I think you teach at Monash?)
Thanks.

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27. Comment #73950 by Goldy on September 26, 2007 at 8:20 pm

As much as the forcing of a young girl angers me, it appears normal in many cases.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/mar/18saudi.htm
I first got this story off Arabnews.com, an Arabian publication. The tone of the article was....hmmm....fairly jocular and seemingly in agreement with the man. Can't find the story in the original form now, unfortunately.
Sexual attraction ot one's sister, someone asked. I gues it could happen....but trust me, the answer is no in most cases! Something to do with growing up together. Now, sibling rivalry, on the other hand... :-D

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28. Comment #73952 by steveroot on September 26, 2007 at 8:32 pm

 avatar
27. Comment #73950 by Goldy on September 26, 2007 at 8:20 pm
As much as the forcing of a young girl angers me, it appears normal in many cases.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/mar/18saudi.htm

That is truly disgusting. And batshit mad- fathering 100 to get in the book of records. His dipstick should fall off; fortunately, he doesn't have that special underwear!
Steve

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29. Comment #73955 by ranman55 on September 26, 2007 at 8:57 pm

The claim by Steed that the 14 year-old (at that time) girl initiated the sexual activity is absolutely preposterous and a cowardly cop-out as
well. What's even more astonishing--and sickening--is the defense lawyer's assertion that Jeffs is the victim. Hooray for the common sense
of the jury.

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30. Comment #74013 by windfall on September 27, 2007 at 4:41 am

 avatarThis from Wiki:

The Colorado City/Hildale, Utah area has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency, an extremely rare genetic condition which causes severe mental retardation. Geneticists attribute this to the prevalence of cousin marriage between descendants of two of the town's founders, Joseph Smith Jessup and John Yeates Barlow; at least half the double community's roughly 8,000 inhabitants are descended from one or both.

Revolting and sad, but I suppose it must be god's will. I pity the poor slobs that fall under this particular spell.

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31. Comment #74075 by bluebird on September 27, 2007 at 6:52 am

 avatarThe young woman showed remarkable poise & resolve at the televised press conference after the verdict.

ranman55, well said!!

windfall, that's interesting.
On a somewhat related note, studies have been done on the health ramifications (rare genetic defects, etc) of the 'closed society' of the Amish/Mennonite of U.S. They freely mingle with society at large (for economic reasons), but marry/live within their community.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish.htm

Other Comments by bluebird

32. Comment #74137 by Yorker on September 27, 2007 at 11:31 am

 avatar24. Comment #73918 by walk

Here's a true story that might amuse you.

One day as a young man I was walking down the street with a friend who in typical young man fashion, said;

"Look across the street at what's coming, is she worth it or not?"

I had already seen the very attractive girl approaching so I said:

"She's certainly very nice"

"Very nice!" he replied incredulously, "You mean you wouldn't do her?"

"Not a chance", said I.

"Why not?", said he.

"Because she's my sister", said I.

Other Comments by Yorker

33. Comment #74216 by Veronique on September 27, 2007 at 6:03 pm

 avatarA bit off-topic, but related:-).

There are many reasons that propel sexual attraction, not the least one being, that neither party knows much about the other at the outset. Each one is free to fantasise about the 'nature' of the other and/or superimpose his/her idealist partner trip on the other.

Siblings have been subject to the behaviour (whole gamut) of each other with all the unattractive bits thrown in. They have watched each other grow up and seen the tantrums, poor actions, rebelliousness, jealousies etc.

As walk's friend pointed out "Nope! No way! Nada!" Any physical attractiveness in his sister could well by outweighed by what he saw of her behaviour during childhood. Now I wouldn't think that this is conscious, merely a deep, if gradual understanding, of the person who is his sister.

What say you Yorker? Does this sound at least a bit familiar?

I adore my brother, but he doesn't attract me physically at all.

All other arguments put by other posters notwithstanding. And I have known two sets of siblings who couldn't bear to be apart and lived together. One set eventually committed suicide. I don't know what happened to the other set. This was about 35 years ago.

Cheers
V

Edit I just read Beth's comment. I tend to agree with what she says.

Other Comments by Veronique

34. Comment #74222 by Goldy on September 27, 2007 at 7:11 pm

Talking of inbreeding, I remember reading of an Italian village where most of the death causing disorders were very rare. Only reason most people could think of was...inbreeding. As a local said, they were not rich, so those that were affected by anything died and only the strong lived.
I'll try and find it - it was in the NY Times, as I recall. Village may have started with as S...
I also heard of the same argument regarding the Chillingham cattle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chillingham_Cattle

Other Comments by Goldy

35. Comment #74230 by Russell Blackford on September 27, 2007 at 9:14 pm

BAEOZ, I don't know very much about Deakin's philosophy program - I suspect that it may be more mixed up with interdisciplinary stuff than you'd find in a more traditional philosophy department, and would probably have an emphasis on Continental philosophy.

There's an argument that Freud is really of more interest to philosophers (and literary theorists) than to psychologists these days ... but no, he's not someone whose writings you'd encounter much in a place like Monash's Philosophy Department, which is very much in the analytic philosophy tradition.

Freud might bob up in a specialised course from time to time, but I can't actually think of anywhere at all on the undergraduate curriculum where much would be said about him. There's another organisational unit in the Faculty of Arts, though, the Centre for Comparative Literature and Cultural Studies (it's a very interesting place, actually). The guys and gals there do a lot of Continental philosophy, and they might give Freud more of a run.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

36. Comment #74231 by BAEOZ on September 27, 2007 at 9:22 pm

 avatarThanks Russell. Good points. Psychoanalysis is pretty much a niche idea in psychology. I think CBT is the mainstream these days.
Thanks again. I'll keep reading my philosophy books to see what I like and then maybe decide whether to change/enrol in a course. I've just read a collection of Plato's dialogs, am now reading Aristotle all the while looking at other stuff on the web and in books by Bertrand Russell (History of Western Philosophy, etc). It'd be great if there was a book that said "here's how it all works, the rest is bunk" but then there'd be nothing to argue about. :)

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37. Comment #74401 by Ashley1319 on September 28, 2007 at 2:50 pm

Well, I'm sooo glad that we've decided that if you get caught or called on stuff like this, you can get arrested. WHAT ABOUT THOSE THAT DON'T? Are we just going to let the polygamist sect continue, when it's a fact that they force women into marriage and sex all the time? Polygamy needs to be outlawed in the United States. If they did it without using coercion on the girls, it would be different, but they do.
Ugh.

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