1. Comment #76956 by Tumara Baap on October 8, 2007 at 12:17 am

Epilepsy and brain tumors have been known to influence not just religiosity, but also musical appreciation. In some people, the disease transforms them from introverts to being perpetually bubbly and gregarious. It is fascinating that at the root of these changes is a basic rewiring of cognition, pleasure, and emotional centers. And even without disease, it seems a majority brains have a tendency to swim in delusion than ascribe to truth (insofar as "spiritual" interpretations go). Our readiness to attribute a sense of elation to God is hardly surprising, when from day 1 one has been told that there exists a watchful force which is by definition the Ultimate everything... creation, existence, happiness and justice. It can be difficult to escape such powerful suction.

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2. Comment #76964 by A. Person on October 8, 2007 at 1:15 am

Am I the only one thinking "I wonder if you could put people on mescaline under an fMRI to compare?"

Because really, when they keep talking about artificially inducing religious experiences, which (aside from being their goal) would be experimentally useful here, I keep thinking of Huxley's essays on mescaline.

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3. Comment #77000 by USA_Limey on October 8, 2007 at 5:58 am

Each of these nuns answered a call for volunteers "who have had an experience of intense union with God"

Is that what they are calling an orgasm in the convent these days? Those nuns, I tell ya!

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4. Comment #77003 by konquererz on October 8, 2007 at 6:25 am

I think this is what Sam Harris is working on as well. Should be interesting should he come out with a theory as well.

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5. Comment #77008 by VanYoungman on October 8, 2007 at 6:56 am

If you want some drivel on the Beauregard work, check out this crap.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/entertainment/books/20070930_A_response_to_atheists__materialists_.html

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6. Comment #77015 by A. Person on October 8, 2007 at 7:26 am

To sum up that and what I've read of his book, Beauregard writes like a monk with severe ergotism whenever the chance to express personal opinion instead of experimental results presents itself. IIRC, a lot of it is very typically Buddhist/Hindu.

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7. Comment #77019 by bluebird on October 8, 2007 at 7:41 am

VanYoungman, I've always admired your avatar, and just noticed that the branches form a calligraphical 'A' :)



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8. Comment #77022 by Fouad Boussetta on October 8, 2007 at 7:52 am

PZ Myers posted a HILARIOUS review of Beauregard's book, "The Spiritual Brain", at:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/10/the_spiritual_brain.php

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9. Comment #77029 by GBG on October 8, 2007 at 8:42 am

Brain defect! I knew it!

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10. Comment #77038 by USA_Limey on October 8, 2007 at 9:13 am

Comment #77029 by GBG:

Brain defect! I knew it!

Yes, but us or them?

Maybe atheists are the ones who have the brains that aren't wired up 'right'. I am just throwing that out there. If it is the case then I am happy for my brain to be defective.

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11. Comment #77049 by Tea Q on October 8, 2007 at 9:45 am

I don't think my epilepsy has *anything* to do with my "unusually large emotional response" whenever I her the word "god". It has *everything* to do with the fact that I can't stand all those moronic godbotherers any longer!!!


Can they tell the difference when they do these tests, or would they just assume that my response is caused by my epilepsy-induced religiosity?

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12. Comment #77056 by Quine on October 8, 2007 at 10:22 am

Religious faith also has inherent worldly rewards, of course. It brings contentment, and charitable works motivated by such faith bring others happiness.

Including when those "charitable works" are blowing other people up?

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13. Comment #77058 by Tyler Durden on October 8, 2007 at 10:25 am

Although atheists might argue that finding spirituality in the brain implies that religion is nothing more than divine delusion, the nuns were thrilled by their brain scans for precisely the opposite reason: they seemed to provide confirmation of God's interactions with them. Thus, the nuns' forays into the tubular brain scanner did not undermine their faith. On the contrary, the science gave them an even greater reason to believe.

D'oh!! So, even if science can show what this effect called "god" is, people of faith will happily go about living their lives in delusion and ignornace. (shakes head in dispair)

And not only their own lives, but the lives of their children.

I guess if, in years to come, astronomers were able to peer into the cosmos and definitively announce "There is no God, no heaven, no afterlife", people would still believe.

I guess when you've invested so much time and effort into a delusion and bought into an ideology, admitting your wrong takes too much bravery on the part of most people.

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14. Comment #77073 by VanYoungman on October 8, 2007 at 11:22 am

Bluebird.

Thank you for your interest in my avatar. I have been on this site for over a year now and for most of the time, just didn't know what to choose. However, staring me in the face for the past 50 years or so, were 3 branches of a hemlock growing in front of the cabin my grandfather built in 1888. The tree sits right over a natural limestone trout stream. I always knew the branches formed an "A" but it wasn't until a month or so ago it dawned on me that here was my avatar. So I snapped it with my Powershot Canon and got a friend to shrink the pixels and voila. I prop my feet up on the railing as I sit on a comfortable front porch sofa, sip some Tullamore Dew and gaze at my "A".
My blessings on Richard Dawkins and all who enjoy this site.
Unfortunately, the cabin is not winterized so this next weekend will be my last until the opening of trout season in April 2008

Judging from your avatar, I'm going to guess you're from Copenhagen or at least somewhere in Denmark.

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15. Comment #77279 by Logicel on October 9, 2007 at 12:02 am

VanYoungman, like bluebird, I have always enjoyed your avatar. However, the form of the A made by the branches eluded me until bluebird mentioned it. What a great story. Apparently the god of atheism is trying to communicate with you. Ha!

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16. Comment #77287 by Logicel on October 9, 2007 at 12:45 am

Though this article has some intriguing bits of info, for the most part it was irritatingly and sloppily written (this author would have a hard time being a trial lawyer):

as the nuns again recall an intense experience with another person and a deep (alleged, as a trial lawyer would refer to it) connection with an (unproven) God.

a time they experienced a profound connection with the (supposed) divine.

that were invigorated only during the nuns' recall of (supposed) communion with (an unproven) God.

a time they experienced a profound connection with the (unproven)divine.

Neural sparks there could be related to the visceral pleasurable feelings associated with connections to the (unproven)
divine.
____

Very interesting, visceral pleasurable feelings associated points to the addicting basis of religious belief.

(Although Beauregard had hoped the nuns would experience a mystical union while in the scanner, the best they could do, it turned out, was to conjure up an emotionally powerful memory of union with God. "God can't be summoned at will," explained Sister Diane, the prioress of the Carmelite convent in Montreal.)
_______

Sort of like the 'spiritual' frauds that James Randi frequently exposes.

We would like to [extend our work by] recruiting individuals who engage in Islamic and Jewish prayer as well as revisiting other Buddhist and Christian practices.
________

Very interesting, would that mean that if this supposed communion with God was taking place, that it would be with same God? Too funny, I bet the religites of different religions would take umbrage with this bit!!!

to speculate that localized electrical storms in the brain's temporal lobe might sometimes underlie an obsession with religious or moral issues.
______

Use of the word, obsession, is so refreshingly accurate!

For the nuns, serenity does not come from a sense of God in their brains but from an awareness of God with them in the world. It is that peace and calm, that sense of union with all things, that Beauregard wants to capture—and perhaps even replicate.
_____

Perhaps, this 'technique' could have been used for Mother Teresa, who 'lost' the ability to feel the presence of God. Why do a proper treatment of her depression, just stimulate those areas of the brain that will allow her to continue to be deluded.

And it is possible that some people's brains will simply resist succumbing to the divine.
______

Hmmm, maybe 10 to 20% of the population? Wonder who they would be?

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17. Comment #77321 by bluebird on October 9, 2007 at 3:54 am

VanYoungman, I sent you a P.M.; not sure if it went thru tho.
******

We live near the Kansas/Missouri border.
Kanza: 'people of the South wind'
Missouria: 'people/town of big canoes'.
It's an area rich with history, and beauteous scenery...

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18. Comment #79400 by John Desclin on October 17, 2007 at 7:12 am

What amazes me is that none of the journalists who enthusiastically report these observations seem able to realize that the experiments on nuns and monks could as well (and, in my opinion much better!) be interpreted as evidence against the "existence of god", by showing that a simple manipulation of some areas of the brain (either
experimentally or as a consequence of trauma, or of lesions due to disease, mere anoxia or dreaming while awake) may result in delusions and hallucinations which don't owe anything to any god. These are thus products of the brain, they are not evidence of the existence of god. The same reasoning also obviously applies to so-called "after death experiences" and to the more recent "out of the body experiences" induced by virtual reality tricks.
This once again demonstrates how aptly the title of Richard Dawkins' book was coined: the God Delusion !

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19. Comment #79426 by hotshoe on October 17, 2007 at 8:35 am

quote Beauregard, "...such feelings could also encompass awe of the universe or of nature. "If you are an atheist and you live a certain kind of experience, you will relate it to the magnificence of the universe. If you are a Christian, you will associate it with God. Who knows? Perhaps they are the same" "

I posit that they are indeed the same. I posit that the "meaning" of the experience is culturally and contextually determined; if you have been religiously raised or are religiously oriented and have that experience, you would naturally attribute it to God. This pleasurable and perhaps amazing feeling would reinforce belief in God (I prayed, He spoke to me! ). That this is circular reasoning does not disturb their belief, of course.

I think atheists and humanists should be teaching themselves techiques (like Buddhist mediation or Catholic prayer) which predispose one to be able to have this mental experience. Line up for the fMRI and demonstrate that the same brain activity is indeed occuring when an atheist experiences it. Testify that belief in God is neither the necessary foundation nor result of this mental experience.

I understand that you will not convince the God-blinded. But you can by your example provide an alternate, human, context for those persons who are searching for a spiritual explanation. To me, this sounds like what Sam Harris is working towards, and good for him!

God spoke to me once, in a clear, distinct voice. Thrilling! The fact that I was literally stoned out of my mind at that moment provided a context for the experience which allowed me to incorporate it back into my normal atheistic life. I did not have to rush off to church to become baptized and immerse myself in religious work. As Beauregard says "... relate it to the magnificence of the universe...". Yes, or at the least, relate it to the magnificence of the human brain and mind that has evolved to contemplate the universe.

Where do I sign up for his project?

edit - quotation marks

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